I was reading somewhere today how the number of blacks signing up for military service has reduced over the years; and honestly, I couldn't be happier. It seems that since the year 2000, black enlistment in the military has been reduced by at least a third. The numbers don't lie, and the news media has just now started to pick up on this beautiful phenomenon.
The media has blamed it on everything from more blacks going to college-like that's supposed to be a bad thing-to the fact that the Iraq war is unpopular among most African Americans. And so what? I say it's about fucking time! Oh, and they left out the fact that black parents are telling their children that they better not sign up to go and fight this illegal and immoral war. A war being fought on behalf of a country where potential minority recruits aren't even as happy as their potential fellow soldiers in the majority population. Nope, no matter what the military offers, tell them to take their $20,ooo bonus and shove it. I know that the Army recruiters are camped around the inner cities like liquor stores and churches these days, but just say no young man (or woman). When that slick recruiter comes calling with his promise of a good life and a future in Uncle Sam's Army, tell him to go and make that pitch to Jenna Bush, and Mitt Romney's five healthy ass sons. Tell him; sorry Mr. Recruiter man, just living in the hood is a fucking adventure, and I would rather not see the world from a one hundred degree tent in the middle of Anbar fucking Province if you don't mind. I just am not buying into your canned speech and practiced lies anymore.
I saw some interesting stats from DeWayne Wickham's column in USA Today: Black unemployment rate is (8%) while for whites it's (4.2%). The article said that race matters more than education. Why? Well consider that the unemployment rate of blacks with a high school diploma (7.3%) is higher than that of white college dropouts (5.9%). And the unemployment rate of blacks with a bachelor's degree are (3.8%) higher than whites who attended college but did not receive a degree. Oh, and it gets better; it seems that when "the most educated blacks-those with a doctorate degree-found work, they earned an average of $12,000 less a year than whites with a doctorate degree. " Hey, I know you say the field is a racialist ( I like that word) but don't shoot the messenger, those stats are from the U.S. Census Bureau in their 2006 report in their Annual Social & Economic Supplement.
So given all those daunting statistics, is it any wonder that black folks ain't signing up to go half way around the world to defend the status quo in the frat boy's war? I don't think so.
But I know one thing; if the number of minority recruits keep dropping, I guarantee you will see a draft sooner than we think. This one will have a caveat to it though; only those who have been unemployed for over six months will be eligible to be drafted.
Isn't democracy beautiful?
Okay. What's with the "bring back the draft" picture showing a young black man, then this post lauding the decline of black enlistees? Cognitive dissonance?
ReplyDeleteYou know, it's only fair. I was one of the 10% of people who thought the war was bad bad bad back in the good old bad days of 2003. At the time, looking around for other people of like minds to validate my p.o.v., the only groups who, as a whole, opposed the war from the outset were left-wing whites, pacifists, and blacks. I remember hearing at one point that blacks generally didn't trust the govt as much due to things like the Tuskeegee sterilizations.
ReplyDeleteYou guys didn't vote for Bush as a group, you didn't back the war as a group, and now you're basically opting out and letting the lower-income whites who pushed for all these things to shoulder the burden alone. It seems fair to me.
Jimbo
Stats do not lie!!! I too hope that enrollment stays down, why fight for a system that is against your being.
ReplyDeleteIf the draft did come back, they would sweep through the ghetto so damn fast, niggas would not know what hit them.
Bygbaby
"Cognitive dissonance?"
ReplyDeleteNope, no conflict going on in my head. I am happy to see the number of blacks volunteering for the army go down, because there IS no draft. Why shouldn't that sacrifice be shared among all citizens? Also, my reason for calling for a draft has nothing to do with my belief in the process. Rather, it's because I know that as soon as there is one, (a draft)these "chicken hawks" will realize that their children and grand children could be drafted,and thus the war will be over tomorrow.
But the problem with the draft, though, is that the same people who've been given the pass (i.e. Mitt Romney's children, Bush's, etc.) will find a way to avoid the draft. Their connections will allow them to dodge the draft through their dollars, and those who don't have a job (Black, White, Latino, whoever) will be stuck with the brunt of the draft cards ...
ReplyDeletefor a war that, as Jimbo so awesomely pointed out, we never ever agreed to for a president we never agreed to, and armed forces we have no business being a part of. we ain't got no quarrel with the iraqi indeed ...
I totally agree that the black community shouldn't be fighting in this governments army. They have done so much to exclude us in every aspect of this country, so we should be excluded from dying on their front lines as well.
ReplyDeleteI always find it funny that they don't want us around until they need someone to die. I will be damned if I stayed in this country if they started the draft, as I have a 16 yr old and I won't stand for it.
Also, they were talking on the radio the other day saying that if they did bring back the draft that they would have to include women to make it fair. Now that is a crock of (%&*%). There will be so many ladies coming up pregnant, it will put the original baby boom to shame.
I think we need the draft back as well.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to watch old Mitt trying to explain how all five of his boys were "miraculously" able to avoid it, and continue instead on their "mission" driving around the "Red States" convincing hayseeds to vote for their father.
Maybe a draft would wake people up. I know this country ain't the greatest, but it could be a hell of a lot worse, and if something doesn't change soon I think we might be close to finding out just how much.
I know a sister who is hiding her twenty-year-old son like there is already a draft being enforced. LOL! He is getting fat too. I told her he could at least go to school while he is hiding out instead of eating and sitting on the computer all day.
ReplyDeleteA brother (who works with Mr. Glendower) retired from the Army after doing twenty years received a call last week asking if he was ready to come back. When he told them no, the Army made sure to tell him that it is not actually retirement pay until he is 62 but “retainer” pay, meaning they could technically call all the over 40 years olds who thought they did their 20 and was done. I say if they are calling him, they are feeling the waters, thus, scraping the bottom of the barrel.
It warms my heart to hear that we're not signing up for the military like we used to. My sister went and so did my brother in law, and neither got a damn thing from Uncle Sam for the 1st Gulf War.
ReplyDeleteAnd those employment rates, not a surprise and I want to wave those in front of all the folks who tell me we live in a post racial society and that true racism only exists in Jena, LA.
@ FN
ReplyDeleteThe draft is going to be brought back eventually, once we get into a war with Iran, and the rest of the Middle east. I feel, that we are going to have a war with China in the future too. A draft is definitely coming. I am positive also, that America is going to become a totalitarian government regime. It is going to have to in order to keep the country under control, immigration in certain parts of America has already changed – the demographics and made it hard to police. The more Americans disagree with the government and voice their opinions -- the more the government is going to become totalitarian. Many Americans will be killed from race riots, and government troops, police, and enforcers. America will self destruct from within.
ghostface, right on. I believe the same exact shit. America has been imperialism light for at least the last 75 years, liberal democracy at home (for white folks), and brutal repression abroad (and in the hood). Now, the gloves are off (set up by 911), and massive ass kicking will begin in the homeland. Brothers who continue to fight the cracker's imperial war get what they deserve (death and maimed bodies), for if after all the years that our asses have been royally kicked by the crackers, you must be living on Mars not to understand their real game plan (world domination). Glad to see some brothers waking up.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ghostface and Ross, and I think the imperialism is just Manifest Destiny under a new name. Who says they had to stop at the Pacific Ocean?
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of fact, some Sergeant in the U.S. Army called me up yesterday to ask if I was interested. My mother said she'd kill me if I signed up, as if I wanted to sign up.
ReplyDeleteHe pretended to be interested in me and what I do with my life, and I told him I'd take a look at goarmy.com and when he calls back in a couple months I'll tell him no thanks.
I wish I had told him about Mitt Romney and the Bush Twins. Maybe in 6 months :)
And about the draft and congressmen realizing their kids are vulnerable, they dodged it in Vietnam, why not this time?
ReplyDeleteIf you have the dough, you don't have to go.
I tried to debate this with a right wing ex Marine nut, leatherneckm31@suddenlink.net and of course all he could do (naturally) was call me aa faggot and chomp at the bit to call me a nigger, too. What's up with these folk? Is it brain damage. After ten minutes (fifteen for you FN hahaha) I could talk some young brother into seeing that Mike Vick's no martyr and he's an f'd up individual, butthese folk are locked as Hitler Youth, man.
ReplyDeletePuerto Ricans are saying "manana" to this crao, too. What did the Pentagon expect?
when I saw the enlistment numbers down I laughed aloud!
ReplyDeleteJimbo & cc you're right, the rednecks who supported this misadventure against [the wrong] A-rabs, can go on ahead and die for it.
They can draft me when the draft Lynne Cheney - sexuality and baby notwithstanding..
@fn Leona scared the hell out of me!
08 21 07
ReplyDeleteHmm interesting post. I am on the opposite side of the spectrum, not because I sanctioned Bush's actions in involving us in Iraq, but because NOW it is inevitable that soldiers go out there.
Since I am a private tutor, I tutor quite a few kids for the AZVAB test. Yeah, I am tutoring them such that they can joined the armed forces. So I guess my job and sense of patriotism is in direct conflict with your post. The other day, I tutored a Black gal for a two hour crammer session. The next day she did quite well on the test. Now she is going into the Air Force. I was proud of her because that is what she wanted. But a strange sense of foreboding also is near.
I figure that if we are in a war, then we need soldiers and by tutoring them, we get smarter soldiers who might be able to use these smarts to survive in the 'trenches'.
And yes, I DO think they should bring back the draft and draft women too. If we are to be true champions of equality, then this is the next step.
oops I meant ASVAB test.
ReplyDeleteAs always, well put.Ali woke up many with his comment about the Viet Cong, your title is worthy and I have spoken to my sons as well.Keep up the tremendous effort.
ReplyDeleteAt family gatherings, I always hear the older men talk about their experiences in the military during World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. The one thing I always hear is how they got mistreated after returning home. They put their lives on the line in some foreign land for the sake of equality, only to be treated like garbage afterwards. It's been the same story since the Revolutionary War. People aren't falling for it anymore.
ReplyDelete"There will be so many ladies coming up pregnant, it will put the original baby boom to shame."
ReplyDeleteThat might make Social Security solvent, actually.
Anyway, the only reason why the recruiting numbers aren't even worse is because these recruiters lie and tell these 17 year old kids they won't be sent to Iraq.
Maybe, just maybe, because of this war, and black kid's rejection of the military as a viable career, more of our youth will begin to see college and entrepreneurship as an option.
ReplyDeleteThis critical mass of youth has to end up somewhere. I am in hope they end up in a classroom.
Mahndisa, why do you think it's inevitable?
Havent visited your blogs (and other black blogs) all month, of course this one caught my attention for OBVIOUS reasons.
ReplyDeleteIndividually speaking, an Iraqi, Pakistani AND an Egyptian actually DID call me a nigger. Whether the "Iraqi" was a Shia, Kurd, Sunni, etc., etc., is irrelevant - it happened. Probably because of my "gender" more than my race, as I have read some very disturbing things about how women in the Middle East are treated - but dont say anything, as they are "all Muslims".
Regardless; my ancestors have told chilling and VERY disappointing tales of being discharged from the military and being re-integrated into the dominant society and take on the mentality of an oppressed minority - again, but WITH an M16 in your possession. Guess who they take their "rage" out on? It ain't Mr. Charlie or Miz Ann. But that is just my take on this topic.
Anyway, unless you have lived - not visited - the Middle East for an extended period, I would suggest you not sit back and judge "government policy" while also in the midst of a war with a foreign power. Judging from "media" reports and individual encounters with people that have fled their "home/native" land to come to the U.S. for "safety", it is always AMAZING that they are confined to the U.S. ghetto, just like African Americans and expect to be treated better, due to their "pigment". Surprise!
Whether abeed, kaffir, or nigger it becomes a level playing field if your "pigment" or "religion" is different, education BE DAMNED.
Mahndisa, I applaude your efforts, and FN you know I love your blog, but lets be realistic -
would you rather be a nigger in the U.S. or somewhere else?
Just an opinion.
Cassandra
"Racialism" vs. Extreme Color-Aroused Disorder (ECA)
ReplyDelete"Field's Beautiful Phenomenon"
ReplyDelete"...and FN you know I love your blog, but lets be realistic -
ReplyDeletewould you rather be a nigger in the U.S. or somewhere else?"
Casandra, I love you too, but was that a rhetorical question, or do you really want to know?
"but lets be realistic -
ReplyDeletewould you rather be a nigger in the U.S. or somewhere else?"
Well, that's a true house nigger mentality.
To answer your question, I would rather not be a "nigger" anywhere.
As a proud black man, there are many nations that are preferable to the US, in terms of treatment. Black folks do indeed have choices where to invest their intelligence and talent.
08 23 07
ReplyDeleteHello Cassandra and Caged Lion:
I understand your sentiment Cassandra and don't think it is house nigga thinking; I think it is an unfortunate reality that no matter where a Black goes, he or she will stick out like a sore thumb and that no society is Ever FREE from racism.
I was once told that Europe just loved Black Americans and there were more opportunities there. How shameful! They don't like the Africans that live there already, and from what I have read there has been a resurgence in nationalist racism in the past few years throughout Europe.
There is no perfect society and I DO think that the US provides the most opportunities for Blacks in the world. After all, where do the richest Black people come from? Where in the New World do they have historically Black colleges and universities?
That is why I love my citizenship in this country and wouldn't trade it for anything else.
Caged Lion, I think it is inevitable that these kids will go to the war with or without my help because they are enlisting in the Armed Services. Like it or not, our country and its creed of equality and independent thinking would not have come about WITHOUT coordinated military insurrection.
So I believe that people in the Armed Forces are protecting our interests as Americans and that they should be supported. But ultimately, I hope that we pull out of these places and start on healing our internal problems rather than looking on the outside so much.
Maybe, just maybe, because of this war, and black kid's rejection of the military as a viable career, more of our youth will begin to see college and entrepreneurship as an option.
ReplyDeletecaged lion -
my concern is that the military through the ROTC is tutoring elementary school kids. This program is funded through the No Child Left Behind Act. This is a relatively new program (i.e, since 9/11). Guess the ethnicity of the majority of the pupils??? Black & Hispanic...
I hope we see through it. They are solidifying the permanent [under] warrior class.
Caged Lion's comment caught my eye. Oh no no no. We have toflip the ethos. Would you rather be an American or live, say, in Somalia or Sierra Leone or the hills of Albania? Most normal folk would say yes. Having a cop hassle you in your carhere is a lot better than having another black perosn kick in the door to your hut and kill you, rape your wife and hack off her hands.
ReplyDeleteHowever, that doesn't mean you blindly go off to a war like this. It does perhaps mean that you join the military because you don't have certain options or its an interesting challenge. I guess those days are over in this country.
CC,
ReplyDeleteThere are indeed viable alternatives to living in the US. It may not be for everyone, but the option is there.
And with our civil liberties being taken away, our currency deflating every minute, and a power-mad president, the rest of the world looks better every day.
Why are you using the most f'd up 3rd world countries in your comparison? It makes your argument spurious. The US isn't the only 1st world country. In fact, when you look at how we rank against other industrialized nations, on issues like healthcare, education, and social mobility, we are pretty low on the list.
There are better comparisons to Somalia, Sierra Leone, and Albania. How about being African American in Accra, Singapore, Hong Kong, Toronto, and Vienna to name a few? I could argue you may have a better time of it in these cities, than in your average american city.
We have to look at the "house" objectively, and stop embracing it so tightly.
Mahndisa,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you when you say that no country is racism free. However, I disagree that the US has the best opportunities. (And you don't have to give up your citizenship to take advantage of these opportunities).
One thing we as African Americans should do is learn from other peoples. One quality that many groups have is the ability to leave their native lands and create new opportunities in quite different, and sometimes relatively inhospitable places. These people then create valuable links to their people back home. The Indians and the Chinese are perfect examples of this. All over the world they can be found creating value and affluence for themselves.
Why can't blacks be like that? We certainly have less to lose on many points.
Blacks should be more globally facing, before we become irrelevant.
Clarifications:
ReplyDelete1) What a better opportunity is is of course relative.
2) Being an expat is not for everyone.
08 23 07
ReplyDeleteThanks for clarifying CL:
For my interests, YES the US DOES have the best options. I find it intriguing that you mentioned Toronto having more opportunities for Blacks. I TOTALLY disagree! From my visits there, I discovered a helluva lot of racial/ethnic tension centered over the recent Carribbean (read Black) influx into the province. When my husband and I stood outside downtown Toronto on club night, we observed racial profiling in terms of who was passed out certain flyers for certain clubs. Whites and Asians got the Top 40 and Rock flyers while Blacks AND everyone else were given flyers to the Hip Hop club. I daresay Vancouver would've been a much better example.
I even agree with you that as Black Americans, we need to broaden our perspectives. But the USA is the ONLY nation that has a Constitution structured as such with something called Free Speech. There is no other nation on Earth that has such a creed. No countries in Europe have it and it serves as a double edged sword because Nazis aren't free to say what they wish, we don't know what they are planning in silence. Also, pan African groups can be silenced under the guise that their rhetoric is harmful to the whole.
So as many places as I have been in the world, I would NOT EVER trade my citizenship to the US. And I certainly would like to live in New Zealand, Vanuatu and perhaps Brazil at some point.
08 23 07
ReplyDeleteAnd Vienna?!!
I know Vienna is a beautiful place, but you actually think it safer for a Black American to live there- where the originator of the Nazis was from? For shame!!!
Thanks for both reading my post and responding Mahndisa, FN, et al.
ReplyDeleteYes, FN, I expected and welcome a "true opinion" on being a "nigger in the U.S. vs. elsewhere" on this planet.
We cannot "blend in" to the dominant culture and escape oppression anyway like Europeans. And according to other "black blogs" from around the world, "da ghetto" is not confined to the U.S., South America, Africa, etc. - ESCAPE is not an option, if the horrors of Darfur, Sudan, Eritrea, etc., is any indiation.
Just where DO "blacks" think or imagine they are welcome and not expected to be just another nigger? I am asking, so if I can scrape together enough pennies I can leave this "plantation" for "paradise".
HINT: It aint Canada either, or do we need to check with the dwindling number of Inuit?
Cassandra
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteStart scraping those pennies.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you looking for? Heaven on earth for black people? Or a place where anti-black racism is less egregious than the US? If it's the first, I can't help you. If it's the second, there are several viable candidates. But like any endeavor, emigrating to find better opportunities is not for those who value comfort above all else. And if it's one thing the oppressor has offered black americans, it is a nice comfort zone.
It is easy to find cases of racism in any nation on the planet. The choice between the US, and the worst 3rd world havens is a false choice. And your requirement that any country of choice be free of any racist acts against any people is a spurious requirement. Again, the question should be, can a black american have more opportunity and/or more dignity, and/or less anti-black hostility in the candidate country of choice.
To truly grow as a people, and remain relevant in modern times, we have to throw off our house negro mentality. This mentality has conditioned us to believe that the US is the home of freedom and civil liberties, and that any alternative is a 3rd World war zone. This is clearly not the case. We have to look at the world, and our country, objectively.
So, given that, where can one find opportunities in the world?
The most obvious place to start is Africa. Ghana, Nigeria, Tanzania, and South Africa come to mind as countries that are ripe with opportunities. While Americans and Europeans are rushing to Asia, the Asians (Indians and Chinese) are rushing to Africa. Why aren't more African Americans doing the same? And though such places have norms which place tribe and ethnicity over race, the question is can a black american be treated with more dignity than the US?
Asia is a place that I have traveled extensively, and the treatment I receive in places like Singapore, Hong Kong, and even mainland China, far excels the US. Again, yes, there is racism there, but the inherent respect given and lack of anti-black hostility make even working trips there like a vacation.
As far as Europe goes, we know there is racism in parts, but the above question still applies: is this racism worse than the American version? This is the region I know the least about. But Mahndisa, just because the originator from Nazism is from Vienna, what does that have to do with the state of that city today? What about anti-black occurrences today? If we use your standard, note that some of the worst anti-black bigots have been born in the US of A, so what does that say about our choice to live here?
Latin America is another viable alternative. Yes, yes, I am familiar with the racial dynamics down there in many countries, but we have to take the long-view. Consider one of the so-called BRIC countries, Brazil. Most of the people in that country look like me, and are making gains every year in that nation. As that nation rises to be an economic and regional power, and blacks gain more and more power, this may be a place to establish roots or allies, in my book.
On Canada, yes, there are cases of racism, but I have seen no proof that Toronto and Vancouver surpass or equal your average american city in terms of racism.
And, on Canada, what do the Inuit have to do with antiblack racism? What is the link to make Canada as bad for black as the United States?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThe military is great under great leadership. Now is not the time for anyone to join.
ReplyDeleteWar doesn't protect a civil liberty at home. WE ALL have had to wake up to that by now.
American soldiers protect our interests when the interests are directly ours, such as Pearl Harbor. The British invasion, any time are shores are threatened.
Of course our shores were threatened once rather recently and that leadership that I mentioned? Well he couldn't be bothered with national security, he was reading MY PET GOAT.
The folks using the Hitler, and Hitler youth dialog are not that far off when looking at the current make up of our leadership.
Patriot Act, Homeland Security? And don't even get me started with...
Young Republicans
All I see are khaki outfits and suspenders. Running around burning books.
There was a poll that pointed out that conservatives read less than liberals.
Old habits die hard. Republicans are not reading them.
I think its great that these blacks are not enlisting. Like it has been stated there is really nothing it for you.
Or anyone for that matter, a vet from the Vietnam fight was rewarded a medal after all these years. But they were out of stock, the brass suggested he ORDER one.
Our nation, the fuckers fuck.
-=t=-
I was with you until you got ridiculous at the end.
ReplyDelete"DeWayne Wickham's column in USA Today: Black unemployment rate is (8%) while for whites it's (4.2%). The article said that race matters more than education. Why? Well consider that the unemployment rate of blacks with a high school diploma (7.3%) is higher than that of white college dropouts (5.9%). And the unemployment rate of blacks with a bachelor's degree are (3.8%) higher than whites who attended college but did not receive a degree. Oh, and it gets better; it seems that when "the most educated blacks-those with a doctorate degree-found work, they earned an average of $12,000 less a year than whites with a doctorate degree. "
First off...
None of this means racism is the primary cause or any cause at all. You are more intelligent than this.
I'm not going to get all crazy with this I will just give you some simple examples.
1)
Black guy has no job skills but a diploma, most blacks live in urban areas.
White guy (most of the poor and uneducated live in rural areas) has no diploma but is willing to work from the ground up in local construction, as a geese monkey at a mechanic, truck driver, etc.
Who is more likely to be employment in their environment. Where the white people and black people live on average makes a huge difference in the jobs available at what education level...that should be obvious.
2. Once again, it depends on where you live and what you are doing.
If a white man has a skilled trade that can get a union job and the black man has a B.A. in psych with little to know job experience who do you think is more employable?
3.
Black and white Phd.
From my experience most black Phd's are in low end academic fields like education, psychology, sociology, theology, and public policy.
Whites do that but also are far more likely than blacks to be in high end fields, such as Engineering, Computer Science, Law, Biotech, Economics, Finance etc.
Academia is a market like everything else.
Who do you think can command more money?
A Electrical Engineer PhD or a Sociology PhD.
Who do you think can command money a "critical race theorist" with a Phd in a social science or a PhD in Finance?
Why don't you check the average major of African Americans. if you did, you will see they predominately major in social sciences that command less money than whites this is especially true of black men as compared to whites.
We all know black kids don't do too well in math classes at the high school level so there is no mystery that very few go into high end subjects, most of which require strong math foundations.
I'm not saying racism does not exist, it does, but everything that does not result in equal outcome is not a sign of racism, think we need more critical thinking and less paranoia.
Without that critical analysis what you quoted from the census means next to nothing.
When I was an undergrad it was easy to find the black on campus. They were in the Psych and Sociology departments predominately. Asians and a lot of white males were definitely predominate in tech fields.
So even though both graduate with a B.A/B.S. in our economy who is more likely to be unemployed at any given time just based on credentials?
OK anon. you make legitimate points about the nature of the different fields that these individuals might be in. I will give you that a PhD in engineering is worth more than a one in one of the social sciences.
ReplyDeleteSo your point is what exactly? My basic premise is still correct no? I thought you were going to tell me that the numbers are flawed and that I misrepresented the bottom line. But what you are saying is that the numbers are correct, but you are making an excuse for them, am I right? In other words, black children don't do as well in math, ergo, they can't get higher paying jobs. Black people live in the inner cities and not rural America, ergo, they cannot get higher paying factory jobs.
So let's explore the causes of these problems. Why are there no factory jobs in urban areas? Why are public schools in urban areas underfunded and lack qualified teachers? Could it be because the tax structure is so fucked up that inner city schools get a much smaller percentage of the funding that should go to public schools?
See anon. it's never as simple as you think it is. You view the world from a particular perspective, so you choose to see issues in a certain way. Me, on the other hand, see it differently, so I see it from a different perpective as well. No harm no foul, that's just the reality of living in America.
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ReplyDeleteAnon's points are premised by the idea that blacks are lazy and unskilled, a obviously racist assumption. Look at his leading point #1. Just how does anon know blacks aren't willing to work their way up?
ReplyDeleteAnd whites without diplomas--I mean, white dropouts are more skilled than blacks graduates? Absurd on its face. Evidence? Talk about social promotion.
I guess in anon's eyes, these hardworking, red-blooded white dropouts are more marketable than a black sociology PhD, as well.
Anon also fails to explain the scores of incompetent white folks that somehow find themselves with good jobs. Our current administration is a prime example of this. We have seen the justice department hire dozens of graduates of the very low ranked Regent University, with predictable results. We have seen mission critical appointments like FEMA, and Immigrations and Customs go to people without even good management experience, let alone expertise in the required fields. If you say that these are purely political, I remind you to look at the quality of people who were hired and appointed to these posts before, folks with expertise, who happened to be merely friendly to the past administrations.
This same thing goes on in the non-political working world. White people prefer to hire and promote white people, even those that are demostrably lower-skilled than available, non-white counterparts.
That is why despite anon seeing highly skilled asians in college, he doesn't see them in a proportional amount of senior positions in technology companies. I guess the asians are too lazy to make the boardroom cut, also.
Lastly, I would refer anon to the book "Stories Employers Tell", by Moss and Tilly, where real data, not just your racist assumptions, was given to show why employers don't hire black people. It turns out alot of employers are as racist as Anon.
field:
ReplyDeletefactories not in urban areas has a lot to do with expense. Where would you want to locate a factory?
Inside the Philadelphia city limits with all the taxes and workers expecting high wages due to the high cost of living or would you want to locate it in outside of Lancaster?
In both areas you can likely find people who have a skill-set to do the job, but one is much cheaper.
Truth be told, Lancaster would be a poor choice to Mexico or China because shipping cost from China are much cheaper than all the money you would need to pay to a union shop in a major urban area, hence many manufacturing places have left and the few there are, well they are in rural areas of the South and Midwest (non-Union) and very cheap.
As far as education and money.
If the problem among the black and Hispanic urban lower class (notice I spoke specifically because I don't see it as a "black problem" as much as a lower class problem)were as simple as throwing money at it...well DC would have the highest educational achievement rate in the country (at least in the top 10-15). That is not the case.
There have been many many studies on this since the 1970's. There has never been a case, as far as I have known that more money equal higher academic achievement.
John McWhorter (who I know you don't like but who does original research that has not been refuted by anyone that I'm aware of) has found that:
Consider the data: even in middle-class suburbs, increasing numbers of middle-class black students tend to cluster at the bottom of their schools in grades and test scores. Black students whose parents earn $70,000 a year or more make median SAT scores lower than impoverished white students whose parents make $6,000 a year or less, while black students whose parents both have graduate degrees make mean SAT scores lower than white students whose parents only completed high school.
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/ interviews/thernstrom.html
He updated his stats actually, the original ones from his book "Losing the Race" were:
the problem must not be poverty since only 25 percent of black families are poor and as many as half can be considered middle-class. On the SAT, for example, the children of black parents who earn more than $50,000 a year score lower than whites whose parents earn $10,000.
Now you know blacks making 70K a year don't live in ghettos and poor white trash live in some horrible poverty in their own right and have poorly funded schools.
he also goes on
: As a group, African American students are the worst performing in the nation. They earn the lowest grades and test scores at every level from elementary school through law school. This pattern is not merely confined to those isolated in rural areas or poor inner-city communities. Even in prosperous suburbs such as Fairfax County, Va., Evanston, Ill., and Shaker Heights, Ohio, educators are struggling against a tide of underachievement among black students.
Also going directly to your issue of funding:
"As far as kids in urban schools…I would agree but there is a trend here. The trend is simple. It doesn’t matter the income level or the how much the school spends on the kids, on average black kids typically do worse GPA wise than black students. There have been many studies on this and the results are always the same. Less parental involvement at home, less serious attitude toward education, not doing home work, not studying, not reading, etc. It does not matter if it is urban or in the suburbs. The urban kids just do worse, but no kids are doing better. This was broke down by several studies in McWhorter’s book “Loosing the Race”. I actually looked into a few of the studies he sited…he did not mis-state the findings.
In States were people spend far less, like Utah, or where kid are quite poor on average (West Virginia) white kids still outscore black kids.
www.nea.org/newsreleases/2003/nr030521.html
nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/profile.asp
Now Mcwhorter might be harsh, he might be a house negro, he might be airing blacks dirty laundry but I have never seen anyone saying his data is wrong and his analysis inaccurate.
You don't have to believe him, you can look at cities like D.C.
Washington DC, has an almost 50% drop out rate, but is is funded over 3X higher than schools in Iowa and Utah which produce superior scoring students, and has a higher graduate rate to boot.
On average, for every student in 2002-03, about $4,934 was spent for instructional services. Expenditures per pupil for instruction ranged from $3,103 in Utah to $ 8,213 in New York. Support services expenditures per pupil were highest in the District of Columbia ($5,331) and New Jersey ($4,757), and lowest in Mississippi ($1,966), Tennessee ($1,885), and Utah ($1,461). Expenditures per pupil for noninstructional services such as food services were $329 for the nation.
Now I know there is a cost of living difference in these areas but why is it states that are mostly white (Utah) respond better to less money. Cost of living can't be 3-4X different.
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/quarterly/vol_7/1_2/4_14.asp
So if you really care about helping black people I think you should spend some time addressing issues like this, like what is going on in the black home.
Schools can do a lot but schools can't do much of anything when the child leaves the school grounds or does not even show up.
"White guy (most of the poor and uneducated live in rural areas) has no diploma but is willing to work from the ground up in local construction, as a geese monkey at a mechanic, truck driver, etc".
ReplyDeleteI don't know where you live, but here in Texas, I don't see a lot of blacks looking at those kinds of jobs with disdain. Mechanic? truck driver? Even blacks with white collar jobs look upon those as good, solid jobs, and don't regard the jobs or the people doing them with disdain. Trouble is, blacks are not getting them much too often. Anon, you're doing what you accuse others of- making excuses.
-Acanthus
"I remember hearing at one point that blacks generally didn't trust the govt as much due to things like the Tuskeegee sterilizations".
ReplyDeleteMost black people were against the was for the most obvious reason. It didn't make any sense to invade Iraq to avenge a crime committed by Saudis who belonged to a group that was harbored by the government of Afganistan. The drop in black enlistment is a good thing.
Wow, a long post of hogwash from Anon.
ReplyDeleteAnon, your whole perspective is garbage, because it ignores context on all levels.
In reality, blacks academic achievement is at an all time high.
It has been increasing for decades, and continues to increase.
The white-black academic gap exists (BTW, why do we always compare blacks to whites, when it is asians who are the best academically; why are we always being compared against the mediocre?) because of past discrimination and racism in american society. No past oppression, no present gap.
To compare blacks to whites, when whites have never been deprived of the best educational quality available, is pure folly. Why should black students as a whole be equal to whites students, assuming that white students are also steadily progressing in quality?
I refuse to argue extensively point by point, scewed data and spurious propositions, of enemies like Anon.
It's really a waste of time.
I think in the end, people like anon will always find reasons and rationalizations to discriminate and screw over black kids and black people.
Caged Lion
Acanthus:
ReplyDeleteWhen i was in Texas (East Texas) most of the people I saw doing those jobs were not black or white, but Hispanic.
Illegal immigration is another issue that hurts blacks.
Caged Lion:
First off, what you said is true.
Black educational achievement is up and continues to rise.
However when you break blacks down demographically by income, lower class black males have stagnated in some areas of the country reversed.
This is the population from which many of the Killa Philly murders Field talks about draws from.
So if you believe blacks have no real problems anymore, then I suggest to Field to shut down this site and stop talking about anything in regard to any black problem, because according to your logic, it will all take care of itself anyway.
Your refusal to argue data means you don't have any. This is typical. Someone does not like what is said, so they get upset and refuse to believe it chalk it up to error, racism, blah blah blah. Equivalent to hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.
That solves no problems.
Personally, as a black person, I believe that we should strive to be the best and not limit ourselves to "white achievement" as Jews as a subgroup do better than Asians, and Asians (East Asians and Indian, not SOutheast Asians) are a close second. I know these groups do not say "well the white average is good enough, they tell their kids A's are good enough, top of the class is good enough". Still, I've been told by blacks those standards are too high and too stressful on children, blah blah blah.
The issue is not screwing over black kids. Who wants to do that, I'm black. That is not the point. I think your reflexive defensive posturing is not doing anyone any good even if it preserves your own ego and self esteem. Reality is present if you like it or believe in it.
It is true blacks have faced discrimination, so have a lot of other groups. In America, blacks have a peculiar history of especially strong discrimination but reality is the black kids whose parents make $70K a year do not live in the hood, and although they face discrimination as black people are you saying no other groups do. (Search Jew conspiracy) online and see what white Americans think about "white" Jews. Search "yellow invasion" or something like that and see what white folks think about all these "smart" Asians coming and taking college seats away from them at Ivy League schools and jobs in high tech and sciences. They are not pleased.
Point is that kids who grew up today did not grow up in Jim Crow, nor did they grow up in slavery. We can't make excuses for not achieving the best we can do, that does not benefit us or our kids.
In case you are not smelling what is in the political wind, affirmative action will be going away as we know (quota type AA anyway) within the next 10 years, we have that long to get our kids competitive before white folks can use their grades and standardized test as an excuse not to hire them and they don't have to worry about voluntary quotas to prevent law suits.
Winds of change are here. You want to prepare or youth or protect your self esteem?
I'm not rationalizing discrimination, in fact I'm telling you things are about to get worse and we, as black people, need to get ready for that.
All the data I have posted is accurate and from McWhorter (who no one has refuted) or directly from the National Education Association, and the National Center of Education Statistics.
Please tell me the screwed data and spurious propositions of the data. Do you believe these sites are part of a racist conspiracy? LOL Grow up, man up, and prepare for what is to come by taking your head out of a hold in the ground and preparing our children. Things "ain't gettin' easier" with AA going away, more global competition, illegal immigration, legal immigration of highly talented Asians...please. I'm warning, I'm not the enemy.
Acanthus:
ReplyDelete"I don't know where you live, but here in Texas, I don't see a lot of blacks looking at those kinds of jobs with disdain. Mechanic? truck driver? Even blacks with white collar jobs look upon those as good, solid jobs, and don't regard the jobs or the people doing them with disdain. Trouble is, blacks are not getting them much too often. Anon, you're doing what you accuse others of- making excuses.
"
I want to better answer what you said.
First Where you live may or may not be the national average.
For example, I might live in a neighborhood where the average black person makes $60K a year and works white collar jobs. That's nice but that is not the reality of the average black American. So we have to be careful with using bias sampling based on personal experience when discussing issues that effect 40Million or so people scattered across the country.
Barring that in mind my entire point was to show the stats Field posted, in and of themselves, do not imply racism.
The majority (I did not say all) of blacks live in or close proximity to major urban areas.
The majority of poor whites live in rural areas.
That is reality, look it up yourself.
Those type of jobs you named are more numerous in urban or suburban areas than in urban areas, hence there are less opportunities for the average black to get those jobs, where many poor rural whites who are working poor have a higher chance of getting these jobs.
This is basic deductive reasoning.
The entire post of that my post was to show how at each level those stats do not necessarily imply racism you need to look at demographic trends.
As I showed...all BA's BS's or PhD's are not equal in the job market...blacks do tend to major in different fields than whites which will have different resulting hiring rates, salary rates, etc. This is just common sense, which Field seemed to agree with.
I think looking at the data from a global perspective is not making excuses. I have excused nothing nor have I denied anything. I want a better look at reality so I can determine truth. It seems some folks on this site only here what they want to here and are not really interested in truth unless it is something that takes responsibility off of them and their (our) community. Typical...I guess this is human nature unfortunately.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteNews Flash: Black people already know things are bad out here. So what's your point? To warn people about the obvious?
Your broken record and McWhorter's broken record are irrelevant and tiresome.
You have said nothing new.
You have offered no solutions past the hackneyed "personal responsibility" line.
You have even threaded blatant lies into your spiel.
And I have matured (in internet years) past the point where I feel the need to waste precious time debating your tired and ill-directed "facts". Believe that BS if you wish.
I've spent too much time already reading your defeatist crap, and writing this response.
-Caged Lion
"It seems some folks on this site only here what they want to here and are not really interested in truth unless it is something that takes responsibility off of them and their (our) community. Typical...I guess this is human nature unfortunately".
ReplyDeleteThat's really what it all comes down to, isn't it? I mean, that's basically all you've got. If I wanted this and nothing else, I'd surf on over to Vdare, because this is their bottom line message re black folks.
Caged Lion :
ReplyDeleteWhat lies did Anon say? To me he seems like he actually cares. He doesn't seem like he is hating on folks or supporting racism. He is saying...things are about to get rough for black folks and we need to get better prepared.
True that is not a "new thing" but it is something we don't talk about that much. He is saying we have a problem, it is A and here is something we can do to fix it (B) inspite of racism (which he said exist).
Why are you so denfensive with this brotha/sista?
He doesn't seem defeatist to me, he is saying we need to keep fighting and harder. I agree.
I just read about this on GlobalGrind.com, too. Black people not signing up for the military is nothing new, but I'm mad that its becoming a problem NOW, just because the war we're fighting is killing so many WHITE people, everyone has to point out Black people's decline in enlistment. Our country won't even let us get ahead, so why should we go fight for them??
ReplyDeleteAcanthus-
ReplyDeleteGood observations made. Blacks/AAs
already know things are going to get worse for us. Under-employed and mis-educated, now the "stop-snitching" national campaign? Geez.
CL-
More good points and observations for the most part. Thanks.
FN-
I know you are busy with the courts and the Philly "kill rate". I am expressing an individual opinion about racism and the "N" word on your blog. So I am still waiting for your response. It is your blog by the way, and I wanted your opinion though others have weighed in on it (thanks for the input.)
Cassandra
Curious:
ReplyDeleteYou must understand the mind of some black folks.
I'm a defeatist black man because I want to define a problem, I want blacks to maximize what they can do in the problem, and I want blacks to succeed.
I'm equal to VDare and other racist organizations because I site articles from a accredited respected U. Berkley Professor and various U.S. Government and Education web sites.
So lets look at it. I'm a self hating racist defeatist black person and it is so obviously that Caged Lion can't even articulate where I am wrong, he just "knows it".
Rational to you? Well, welcome to the mind of too many of our people.
The way I see it, black job outcome is primarily predicted by black educational outcome.
Black education outcome has some inputs. Some blacks control and some people outside our community (whites and others control).
While we should never stop the fight against racism I am not at all convinced that blacks are maximizing what they already have.
It is kind of like going to the boss and saying "give me some more money" and he says "well you only do 80% of the work the average person in your position in the office does" and you say "But I deserve it..."
It does not matter if you deserve it or not (to the boss). There is justice in the abstract and there is reality.
Reality is the boss has power over you and does not give a crap. However if you are doing 100% of the work as everyone else or 110% and were not getting paid the same and then went to the boss, you have a very strong leg to stand on.
I'm saying academically black are not doing 100% of the work, but black parents and other blacks are complaining with no leg to stand on, in fact their are sitting on their butt complaining.
In this situation:
1) blacks would be better off any way you cut it if we maximized what we have academically and we are not.
2) blacks would not only be in better shape economically due to better academics but would also have a strong foot to stand on in getting more concessions.
Blacks can shout and sing we shall overcome and get Messy Jessy to get all up in the camera rhyming.
That is one way.
The other way is to improve the average black person and not focus on masses of blacks but quality of indidviduals.
When Jews want something they write big checks behind closed doors.
When blacks want something, they are more numerous, often don't get it despite marching and singing.
Who is more intelligent.
If blacks had 2/3 the income Jews had on average with our numbers we would be quite formidable.
However that won't happen with people living in denial and apologizing like Caged Lion.
FN-
ReplyDeleteI know you are busy with the courts and the Philly "kill rate". "I am expressing an individual opinion about racism and the "N" word on your blog. So I am still waiting for your response. It is your blog by the way, and I wanted your opinion though others have weighed in on it (thanks for the input.)
Cassandra"
Casandra, I hate that question, because by answering it, I am admitting to something that I reject. Kind of like that old cross examination trick question in legal circles: "Field Negro, when did you stop beating your wife?"
I am not a nigger anywhere, but I am not naive enough to think that that quite a few people in the world and here in the good old U.S.A. don't view me as one. They do, and will continue to, no matter what I do.
Having said that, I live in America, so people's views here affects me more than it does say in Germany. Because I don't live in Germany, I live here. The laws here affect me more. They affect my property, how I make my living, and how I live my life on a day to day basis.
Honestly,I don't care how people in the majority population view me, as long as they don't f**k with my ability to make a living, obstruct my basic civil liberties, and as long as they treat me equally under the law.
I mean I love mahndisa, but I am not as married to the idea of living in America as she is. I think a person of color can be as happy in Canada, Japan, or Brazil, depending on how they choose to view the world around them.
Curious:
ReplyDeleteWhat got my goat was how anon started off, with a blatant stereotype and untruth:
1)
Black guy has no job skills but a diploma, most blacks live in urban areas.
White guy (most of the poor and uneducated live in rural areas) has no diploma but is willing to work from the ground up in local construction, as a geese monkey at a mechanic, truck driver, etc.
For me, it colored the rest of what he had to say, some of which was true and much of it misguided.
My tolerance for BS like that is at an all time low, expecially from people who claim to be on our side.
However, I was hard on anon, and I will try to take more deep breaths in the future.
-Caged Lion
I don't think you were too hard on him. I missed the news about the passage of the law that makes it illegal for black folks to recognize right-wing authoritarians for what they are, and engage them accordingly, if they happen to be black.
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of bringing back the draft. I looked this shit up and below is the latest count of IRAQ war deaths by ETHNICTY:
ReplyDeleteRace # who have died
Americian Indian 40
Asian 54
Black 347
Hispanic 404
Native Hawaiian 40
Multiple/unknown 62
WHITE 2,173
More whites (7 to 1 ratio)than any other race even more hispanics are getting killed than blacks in Iraq.
Now to the VIETNAM War
Race #who have died
Americian Indian 219
Asian 343
Unknown 106
Black 7,105
WHITE 44,801
Again more whites were killed than any other race (6 to 1 ratio) in Nam.So lets bring back the draft and even this thing out.
Thanks FN,
ReplyDeleteI was only asking for your OPINION of being relegated to a "N" in the U.S. as opposed to elsewhere on the planet where human beings exist in "mutually supportive groups".
Also, I dont care how the dominant (number) of people view me either, since I do not buy into their perception of much of anything anyway. My individual hassles have always come from another person of color, whether foreign or domestic even though I was born in the U.S. just like the majority of whackjobs.
I merely appreciated the title of this particular post (gender not withstanding) as I HAVE been called a "N" by an "Iraqi", whether Sunni, Kurd, Baath, etc., I did not know what "tribe/clan" he AND she belonged to, they just said they were "Iraqi-American". They just did not know that I understand certain phrases of their language, whether "abeed", "kaffir", etc. as it is a "hobby" of mine to research certain phrases about language. For example, (please excuse the spelling), the phrase -
"Tillah hassa bibi, entu wa mama!" is a very ugly thing to say to an "Arab/Muslim" but is something I have heard projected/said to AAs and even whites who do not speak the language. Being an AA myself, I was not SUPPOSED to understand it, but I did and do.
I have also been insulted by other "cultures" individually/collectively because they too would automatically ASS-U-ME that being AA, also meant inherently stupid.
The "majority population" has not fucked with me and my ability to make a living anymore than the clowns like the "Killedelphia Klowns" have. All I ever asked was that they not blame this crap on Charley when ever Ahole that was stabbing me in the back was a "person of color".
Anyway, thanks for the responses; and I still love your blog. Mandhisa, has an opinion like everyone else; I just happen to agree with her training the next generation to the best of her ability and personal insights or experiences.
BTW, I recently had my "black card" revoked - again - and cannot join the Afrospear Google groups, but that is a "secret".
Cassandra
Well, Iraqis may have never called you a nigger, but I do. NIGGER, PORCH MONKEY, JIGABOO!! Stay the fuck out of the military, NO human wants to anser to a chimp-in-charge.
ReplyDeleteFuck you nigger.
Check out me anti-war website at http://noiraqievercalledmeanigger.blogspot.com/
ReplyDelete