post concerning my black re-puke-lican friend's challenge. (See, I am still calling him a friend)
I was over in his house when I noticed a comment that was worth duplicating, as it sums up this entire debate in a very lucid way. (BTW, for a real treat check out the comments left in cobbland by "before the mayflower", and "the cocoa goddess")
So Ana, great post, and thanks for leaving it so that I can do a cut and paste job while I try to enjoy my vacation.
"Cobb, Why are you so defensive? The question that begs to be answered here is:Why have the Republicans alienated and ignored the African American community? Action speaks louder than words.Do you really believed that African Americans have abandoned the Republican party because they are foolish? Instead of being angry with Black folks for calling things as they are, why don't you and your fellow Republicans identify and mount serious' agendas to create policies that would attract and include Black people. This rambling here smacks as an agenda to perpetuate the status quo and to defend Massa's interests. Hey, and to the individual who claimed that Caribbeans, Black Central and South Americans are Conservative Republicans, that is a vile lie.We are too proud, intelligent and sophisticated and we are very much aware that our conservatism is not equal to the selfish, foolish,ignorant,narcissistic, and racist pseudo Conservatism of White Americans. "
Now to be honest, I could have used any one of the great posts left here on this subject, which should tell cobb and his peeps all they need to know about the level of discourse on this and similar sites.
Hopefully, the next time cobb starts throwing around challenges, he will take some time to consider the people he is challenging. C0bb I might be shadow boxing, but no offense, I am not preparing for a fight with you. There are much more formidable opponents to be worried about.
1. the gop has alienated *parts* of the african american electorate. those parts have yet to have a common dialog and cohesive understanding about the american right, and blacks participation in the american right.
ReplyDelete2. i defend myself and conservatives like me, not the whole of the republican party. the entire fact that i have challenged FN to find racist aspects of the republican party is proof that i am willing to work together against racism in the republican party. i defend republicans when they do right, i criticize them when they do wrong. my critiques are more accurate because i'm an insider.
3. you cannot have it both ways. either you defend specific coded messages to different races or you don't. if blacks should get a special message from the republicans, then so should whites, latinos and every other group. you should see the hypocrisy of making black demands of the party for black patronage if you decry white demands for white patronage.
4. you fail to make the distinction between conservative values and republican policy. nobody likes selfish, foolish, ignorant, narcissitic and racist pseudo conservatims in white americans. i just wish you could name the top five blogs who exemplify that so that you could see how the republican party isolates, dismisses and bombs them.
what are those parts [of the african american electorate] immaturely lacking a dialog and cohesive understanding about the american right and their own participation in it, that the gop has chosen to alienate? and from whom?
ReplyDeleteFor example, when Ben Chavis was the head of the NAACP, his rhetoric against the Republicans was such that GWBush would not speak to them. As soon as the leadership of the NAACP changed and Bruce Gordon took over, the President went to speak to them.
ReplyDeleteHe was well received. He got plenty of applause. You can read the transcript here.
So what's the difference between Ben Chavis, Kweisi Mfume and Bruce Gordon? Those political differences mark the various parts of the African American electorate. Some of them throw stones, some build bridges.
What, pray tell, is Cobb's obsession with the show me the five-- rant?
ReplyDeleteI feel bad that the brother is a bit stuck on the show me where-- instead of the see where we are in this benighted country. . .
Ahhh--so sad . . .
Let's all wish him a better year, clearer vision, a helluva less need to share on this blog, less need to attack commentators on said blog and
the constant mantra (which I know he will enjoy)
of Brother James singing SAY IT LOUD, I'M BLACK AND I'M PROUD--even if he thinks most of us are deluded.
Peace.
The reason I started the Conservative Brotherhood was so that Americans can see what black conservatives think like. There is not unanimity of purpose, policy or attitude within the Brotherhood, but anyone who follows them will have a better idea of what black conservatives are like.
ReplyDeleteI'm just a lightning rod because I'm bold like that, but I have learned long ago that I'm just one of many voices on the black right.
I think FN and some others are so bent against the Republican party, that they don't even bother to find out what blacks on the American right are actually saying. So whenever I hear 'house' allegories, I know I'm dealing with folks who don't listen.
Anyway, it seems easy and obvious to me that a decent conversation with the black right might be a good introduction to the Right, but I wouldn't suggest that we are proxies or middlemen. I'm not going there. No tragic mulatto roles for me thank you.
Instead I would suggest, for example, that black political players recognize the difference between the various elements of the Conservative movement and their influence on the Republican party and the national dialog.
What I hear, more often than not, is stuff about Rush Limbaugh, Ward Connorly, Dick Cheney and other prominent names who really don't have much impact on black conservative thinking. Not that I can speak for everybody. Again, I would say look at the blogrolls of black conservatives and see where we find common ground with the Right and where we don't. Identify real opinion-makers and follow those positions piece by piece.
Me myself, I like David Brooks, Hugh Hewitt, Gerard Vanderleun, Michael Yon and milbloggers, Patterico, CQ. I don't like LGF, I find Malkin a bit too shrill, and Coulter completely unhinged. I don't pay attention to Limbaugh, I like Prager on occasion and Michael Medved as well. Obviously I like Michael Steele and the new Republican Leadership Committee, the Manhattan Institute and a bit more than half the things McWhorter says, even though he's a Democrat. I can't stand Jesse Lee Peterson and most elements of the Christian Right. I never watch Fox News and basically don't even know enough about O'Reilly to have an opinion. Glen Beck is a loudmouth. Ron Paul is a crackpot and the Congress is way better off without Tom DeLay and Trent Lott. I like Mike Pence and Duncan Hunter. I like Senator Kyl and Joe Lieberman. Tancredo gets on my nerves but I ignore him anyway....
The list goes on. I could sit here all day. The point is that for the sake of silly crap, I think that a sizeable fragment of the African American electorate is completely disengaged from political conversations that are of significant interest. Instead, a few *parts* of the African American electorate are getting to decide by fiat, what are appropriate people and issues for blackfolks to consider - namely Tavis. And I think when the alternatives are dismissed out of hand, it does a disservice to our political freedom.
wow, brother cobb. didn't think you would actually have the temerity to distill our [the african american eloectorate's] collective political experience and grasp conveniently under the heads of the naacp. i guess the republican party's right. i guess we really are too myopic and naive to warrant direct conversation from the gop unless the the naacp vets it, huh? cobb, pardon me if i don't think too highly of ANY group of people applauding the frat boy, and forgive me for not hungrily sipping on whatever the gop wants to spoonfeed me through the naacp. what i'm famished for, neither the gop nor, evidently, you can sate. any house quickly becomes a frat house with enough booze and strippers, dun.
ReplyDeleteWhat annoys me Leota, is that you take an incident like whatshisname, err... the guy who insulted the womens' basketball team. When stuff like that comes up, it's very easy to suggest, when you are not engaged with the Right, that it represents what the Republicans and Conservatives do all the time, but *this* time it slipped. Don Imus. That is just like when blonde reporters go into the 'hood and interview the first brother with gold teeth they can find as representative of 'the black community'.
ReplyDeleteYou cannot get an accurate perspective on a piecemeal basis.
When Bill Bennett got in trouble for some misinterpreted comments, we went around this same sideshow.
baatin, you've engaged with me for approximately one hour. I think I did say 'for example', with the NAACP. Surely you recognize the difference between the politics of Ben Chavis, Bruce Gordon and Kweisi Mfume. If you have some other strains of black political thought upon which to differentiate the various parts of the African American electorate, I'm more than happy to listen. I've given you about a dozen from the Right above.
ReplyDeleteI'd say...er...Sean Hannity, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter et al are a little closer to the reality of the GOP than this mythological world Cobb likely claims: of Bill Coleman, of Edward Brooke. Yeah, back when the GOP held statesmen and people of thought both black and white. Ben Chavis is a clown even to many many folk who even know or care who he is, yet his fringe is being held up as a reason black folk should come to the Right? lawd. Almost as specious as the notion that Caribbean blacks and Africans are righies b/c what--black Americans are welfare pimps? Look, that stuff has been exposed as a fraud, and i don't even think the usual GOP appeal to blacks over diversions like gay marriage is holding water anywmore.
ReplyDeleteI have my issues with cocksuckers like Michael Eric Dyson and 99% of the southern rappers out there. That doesn't mean I'm going to embrace Alan Frigging Keyes ;-)
By the way Field, I just posted on benazir Bhutto. You get the impression Dick Cheney said "Yeah, a dead 'Binky' is more use to us than a live 'Binky.'" (Binky was her nickname at Harvard). Gleefully, the speculators will push our post holiday gas prices beyond $4 a gallon and our dumb fat Wii-playing ignorant asses will open our wallets. It'll be Huckabee versus Hillary in Nov as a result. God what a world!
Huckabee will not survive. I absolutely guarantee you that.
ReplyDeleteLook, I remember when people were saying that Arnold had no chance in California because he was way too socially liberal. I don't know where you live Chambers, but Hannity gets no props on SoCal Conservative talk radio. He's not even on the air here. I don't think he was even on in Texas radio, but I may be wrong. Then again, I don't watch TV for political opinion.
Oh by the way, now that we've gotten into specific issues.. Why do you think that blackfolks haven't made more common cause with the GOP over illegal immigration? Should civil rights be granted to people who aren't citizens?
ReplyDeleteChristopher Chambers said...
ReplyDeleteI'd say...er...Sean Hannity, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter et al are a little closer to the reality of the GOP than this mythological world Cobb likely claims: of Bill Coleman, of Edward Brooke.
I am definitely inclined to agree with you on this.
@Cobb-
ReplyDeleteI find your suggestions to be silly. Looking at the link you provided, one of the so-called "Higher beings" - Michelle Malkin clearly is against Asians and Muslims. I'll let you decide if she's a "real Republican blogger"; I really don't care. I will note that you mention her above.
More to the point, you claim that "There isn't a Southern Strategist living." Ignoring the fact that multiple of the southern strategists who helped Nixon get elected are, in fact, alive - Kevin Phillips is an example- why do you think that there has been a large amount of voter intimidation and repression in multiple states, largely of minority voters, over the last few elections? Why do you think that most states now don't permit ex-felons to vote, and why most states (and the federal government) tend to felonize Black behaviors disproportionately to White behaviors (in law, sentence, and enforcement)?
Frankly, you're either shockingly naive or have deliberately placed blinders over your eyes.
Don't get me wrong- I can see multiple reasons to be Republican, regardless of skin color. Also, just as there are Republicans that don't like Black people, there are Democrats that don't like Black people; in my opinion the main difference between the political parties as far as Civil Rights are concerned is that Republicans have repeatedly, recently campaigned against them, and Democrats have typically been neutral or mildly in favor in recent national races.
In other words, I don't think there's much cause to laud recent national Democratic candidates (ex: Carter, Clinton, Gore, Kerry) for their Civil Rights views, but there are reasons to comdem recent Republican candidates ex: Reagan, Bush I, Dole, Bush II) for their anti-Civil Rights views.
As for your most recent post "Should civil rights be granted to people who aren't citizens?", I'll refer you to the U.S. Constitution. If you don't have the time, I'll cut to the chase: Citizenship only matters for voting and federal office; it does not matter for any other civil right. In other words, (save voting or running for office) they're already granted; it would require a Constitutional Amendment to remove them.
c'mon cobb. now you're just bullshitting me. my point is that black people don't function from one monolithic block of thought. you have said three times now, that black people simply follow what they are told to. you started out by saying people who read and comment on this site are syncophants (sic) who merely follow field's thoughts. then you said that whoever sits at the head of the naacp determines for us what to think politically. now you say tavis tells us what to think. the pattern's pretty clear here, bro. we are much too complex for you republicans to differentiate, quite frankly, inasmuch the same way black re-thugs are largely too complex for me to differentiate. i think it's probably really hard being you, brother. gotta be tough knowing they promise that the door'll always be open, yet they never give you the keys. that's all i'm getting at. and it's waaaaaay too convenient for you to dismiss coulter. she's a highly visible, card-carrying member of your club, black.
ReplyDeleteZimbel,
ReplyDeleteNow we're getting somewhere. A real discussion about real conservative bloggers. I disagree that Malkin is against Asians. I've parsed some of the screaming on Manzanar and I think she has a reasonable position, and not a psychological mental block, or an axe to grind. I do not doubt that she capitalized on laying against the ethnic unity stereotype, but she's lasted too long for that to be her singular thing. As for her being against Muslims, I dunno, and I doubt it. I know she regularly defers to Allahpundit over on Hot Air. But I don't pay close attention to her. What I think about Malkin is that she's fairly good analytically and definitely on her Ps and Qs when it comes to controversy. I don't think she has any particularly original ideas and Hot Air is her best production yet. As an academic who's built for TV, she's pretty good and a lot smarter than a lot of people give her credit for.
How Malkin as an Asian 'model minority' might play into white racial bigotry is probably a good thing to investigate. Also, why Malkin as an Asian is particularly political is also a good topic I would be interested. I've always wondered why black political partisans have been fairly ineffective in maintaining good relations with Asians on the liberal side of the aisle without going completely undergrad multiculti. I've never seen a black-asian alliance on labor issues, for example.
So that's that. The question now is could you see it worth your while to venture over to Malkin with your charge that she is anti-Asian and anti-Muslim. Do you think you would hear her out, or do you believe that she is actually trying to BE anti-Asian and anti-Muslim without APPEARING to be?
That is the interesting challenge.
--
As for Kevin Phillips, I believe you have called me on my bullshit. I'm not wearing blinders nor shockingly naive, I just never heard of the guy. It has taken me a lot of struggle over here just to get to his name. I'm going to check out his interview at Charlie Rose; he seems to be a sober fellow, and what I see on the preview sounds entirely consistent with my gripes against Karl Rove's fake seduction of the Christian Right. I don't forget why Ralph Reed quit politics.
baatin,
ReplyDeleteI don't need to own Coulter as much as I think blackfolks who buy into identity politics have to own Jesse Jackson. But that's rather beside the point. Neither of us are going to approach the clout, any time soon, to take on Coulter in the MSM. She could be a complete idiot and still clobber us. Where we have a chance to be effective in is the blogosphere, and for me a little bit, on the radio.
Similarly, I don't think we're going to derail the Tavis train. But I am interested in pursuing some consensus on the major schools of black political thought. Tell me what you think of this.
So I'm much more interested in targeting some blogs where we can get some ink in direct debate, or at the very least, trackback. But this conversation is pretty good...
This may be the place to post this...
ReplyDeleteAny black person who "believes" in either the Democrats or Republicans is a black fool. WE still have a collective agenda based on our collective condition (not that many of us subscribe to that). There's a particular kind of hell reserved for black folks. And nobody but US gives a fuck. Well, maybe...
When you have 'defectors' who blindly tout the philosphies and opinions of your enemy - as "your solution" - then you've found someone special.
The real "code" is not the "Willie Horton-isms" and the other small potato, jiveazzbullshit. Its that you still believe this system actually works or can work - for your black ass. "The Secret" is not the "Law of Attraction", but that there is a ruling class that respects no colors or borders and that shreds both personal and national sovereignty...for another muthafucking dollar.
They tell you they love God, but they are devils. And you love them.
They control what and how you think. Obviously. That's why they have kneegroes defending THEM, or engaged in marathon conversations about the titsi fly.
You don't even have a right to vote in this country for chrissakes, except as a rhetorical device. The game is rigged: they give you the rules of the game that they want you to have, but NOT the rules 'as they are or as they work.'
To discern those, one must have a decolonized mind. Heavy hangs the bowed head of the political sambo.
To stray far off topic, Mister Negro, what does W's foreign policy have to do with Benazir Bhutto's assassination? I thought she returned on her own accord, I'm not making the connection.
ReplyDelete"Instead I would suggest, for example, that black political players recognize the difference between the various elements of the conservative movement and their influence on the Republican party and the national dialog."
ReplyDeleteThat's the problem cobb, they (black plitical players) seem to have no influence.If they did,I would certainly hope that the republican platform and some of their policies would not look the way they do today.
And just as you think people on the left lump all of the insane and fringe repubs with others; aren't you guilty of the same thing when you use examples like Chavis as being representative of all the people on the left?
Woozie, the frat boy's foreign policy in Pakistan led to her (Bhutto's)early return from exile. By embracing and strengthening Pervez Musharref [sp?] and his domestic policies, we made Bhutto's opposition party become restless; she returned from exile, and now we see the result.
I know you have posted on this in the past, and your position is that we nead---even a flawed president in power over there to keep the militants in check. But I always had issues with this policy, because I have suspected that Pervez Musharref [sp?] was using the frat boy all along.
He blames Bhutto's death on terrorist, but unfortunately there are quite a few people in Pakistan who believe that he had something to do with it.
I like Michelle's stance. If there's any label that sticks to her, it would be American idealist, of course, with a conservative slant.
ReplyDeletewhat does W's foreign policy have to do with Benazir Bhutto's assassination?
ReplyDeleteWoozie,
Everything, really.
Benazir Bhutto was assassinated, military-hit style by one of Musharaff's thugs.
She represented a threat to Musharaff remaining in office. By all accounts, Bhutto would've defeated Musharaff in the national elections scheduled to take place next month.
Also, Musharaff is the happy recipient of $10 billion dollars of U.S. foreign aide (READ: American tax dollars) and half of it has gone unaccounted for.
Yet, the Motherfucker from Midland continues to throw his support behind Musharaff. Bush and his idiot supplicants refer to Musharaff as a "partner in the "wur own turrism."
Curious how Benazir Bhutto wasn't safe in Pakistan but Obama bin Laden is perfectly safe in Pakistan.
Plez and I just blogged on the murder. You gotta check it out, Cobb. You really, really do.
ReplyDeleteRe: Malkin, I'm a member of Pajamas Media--I guess I'm their token non-douchebag, sort of like an effective Combs? She IS a bitch. A harridan. Even her wingnut friends say that behind her back. She even has a problem with her Asian blood anytime they deviate indeed from the model minority moniker. Indeed she likely is embarassed by the down low creed in their community that few of us truly fathom: that they despise whitefolks more than we do. hahaha. We say we do but don't. We just emulate whitefolks' worse qualities and twist them thru our bizarre prism. They have a whole other paradigm, and she and some of those Indian wingnuts (as Dinesh or whatever his name is) are fighting that inner battle.
But back to "Binky" Bhutto, this is a shame, a damn shame. This stuff can be traced back to what's in that movie "Charlie Wilson's War" with Tom Hanks. Field, fact-check me and Plez's posts from yesterday and you'll see.
Field, I have been able on all kinds of occasions to trackback to the most popular blogs there are. It brings me traffic and it's not difficult. If I were to become serious about marketing Cobb, I could triple my audience, And blogging has gotten me on the radio. That's power. The point is that only by being expansive - by challenging other more popular bloggers and media, are our voices going to get any recognition.
ReplyDeleteLook at this Witt guy from the Tribune. That was a gift. There will always be opportunities to turn public opinion, but only if you are engaged with the public.
Now I understand that not everybody is interested. But I've been online too long and in too many places to be satisfied with setting up a private forum as a safe zone for black intellectual discussion. It's not enough.
On a personal note, whenever there is an issue of black concern and some white blogger gets more traffic than the top black blogs, AND the top black blogs don't participate in that discussion, I get really pissed off. I shouldn't, but I do. Don't you?
I will chris, and I am checking those posts now.
ReplyDeleteBTW, co-sign with you on Malkin et al.
goddamn me! denzel is fucking stunning. he is literally the most beautiful PERSON i have ever seen. jesus! get tyra out of there, mr. negro. wonder what my old lady would have to say about that? yeah, i am striaght.
ReplyDeleteI think that a sizeable fragment of the African American electorate is completely disengaged from political conversations that are of significant interest. Instead, a few *parts* of the African American electorate are getting to decide by fiat, what are appropriate people and issues for blackfolks to consider - namely Tavis. And I think when the alternatives are dismissed out of hand, it does a disservice to our political freedom.
ReplyDeleteWhat are you asking for? "affirmative action" for black rightists in the marketplace of black political ideas? Why does Tavis, et al owe that to you? Get your ass out there and compete for the ear, heart, and mind of the black electorate.
@Cobb-
ReplyDelete"The question now is could you see it worth your while to venture over to Malkin with your charge that she is anti-Asian and anti-Muslim. Do you think you would hear her out, or do you believe that she is actually trying to BE anti-Asian and anti-Muslim without APPEARING to be?"
Not really; the articles I refer to on Malkin are hardly private, nor even all that recent. I really don't care much about Malkin much one way or the other; it merely seemed responsive to your "challenge" without consuming a significant amount of my time.
Frankly, what I'm far more interested in is why you consider yourself to be a Republican. While from reading The Conservative Brotherhood, I understand why lrey is a Republican (he appears to buy into market theory, and the suggestion that Republicans are for freer markets then Democrats are), I'm not clear, from either that source or your blog, why you are.
Cobb: Oh Lord, whites get specific messages from the Republicans every day of the week. Haven't you noticed that they are feverishly meeting with white in the run-up to the elections while scrupulously avoiding Blacks? Isn't that an example of color-aroused behavior?
ReplyDeleteField: I admire your tenacity in putting your ear to the doors of the Big House so you can tell us what's going on in their. But, I'm sure glad I don't have to do it!
Anyway, Happy New Year! How can you tell me not to waste my time arguing with the whitosphere, but then you go and argue with Cobb?
:)
P.S. I need a link to your NPR interview so I can post it at AfroSpear in the News. If anyone has that link, please e-mail it to francislholland@yahoo.com Thanks!
Holland, There is list of categories on the right sidebar of the Cobb blog. Look for 'Radio Recap', that covers all of my NPR work so far.
ReplyDeleteZimbel,
I am a Republican because of three primary reasons. #1. I lost my disrespect for the broad American middle class. #2. I find the Democrats to be extraordinarily disingenuous and impractical. #3. Socio-economically, Republican & Conservative priorities are aligned with mine.
Perhaps the better way to say #3 is that *I* am conservative, and the only way my priorities get attention is through the recognition of the GOP.
The clearer and more full answers are at the blog under the 'Conservatism' category.
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