Monday, April 16, 2007

"There was blood everywhere"


Those tragic words came from the lips of a Virginia Tech student, after a campus massacre in the rolling mountains of Western Virginia took the lives of thirty two of his fellow students. Hey, all I know about Virginia Tech is that Michael Vick played some serious football there, and it's in a beautiful part of the country. But today I also learned this: That Virginia Tech was the scene of the largest single day killing spree in American History. In one day, some animal managed to do- what is for us here in Philly, a months worth of killings.

This was horrible, and it seems like every time we think that these unspeakable acts can't get any worse, they do. From the former Marine who took out sixteen people from a tower on the University of Texas. To the depraved animal who bound and executed five little Amish girls in Lancaster Pennsylvania, because of his sick delusions. Somehow it just seems that these types of tragedies keep happening over and over again, and unfortunately, we can't figure out what is in the American psyche that causes it.

And before I write one more word, let me say this right now: I feel for those victims and their loved ones, and I would never minimize what they are experiencing, or what they had to go through today.

Now here comes my rant: We as Americans like to think that we are above harboring pure evil in our hearts. We like to think of ourselves as morally superior to other people in the world, because, this is, after all, America. It's hard for us to fathom one of our own committing these horrific acts against a fellow American. Yet time and time again, it happens, and these acts are not only committed by adults, but by children as well.

So what is it that's driving those of us in our society to commit these acts, and why does it keep- happening? Isn't it funny how conservatives spend all their time trying to scare us into being afraid of the Muslim bogeymen and terrorist who would bring harm to us, yet our own children have shown that they are capable of acts that are just as heinous and despicable? Maybe we should focus more of our war on terror right here at home.

I know that in the neighborhoods of our inner cities people live with terrorist every day. Try telling a retired grandmother who just cashed her social security check, that the ignorant ass young buck waiting to jack her isn't more dangerous than Osama bin Laden. I see where the President and members of congress came out and spoke about this tragedy today, and they tried to offer comfort and words of encouragement to an uneasy nation. "Schools should be places of sanctuary and safety and learning." Yeah I hear you Mr. President, but it sure would be nice to hear you make a statement to all the poor people in inner cities all over our country. People who have to listen to gun shots night after night, and who see the blood of their children in the streets when they wake in the morning. It's nice that you have offered federal aid to the people of Virginia to help them cope with this tragedy, but what the f**k? There have been over one hundred and twelve murders in my hometown alone this year, and I guarantee you there ain't no federal aid on the way. Again, I feel for those who lost loves ones today, but you know what, I feel for all the people who have lost loved ones here in my city so far this year as well.

Now you will hear all the NRA apologist say; (they come out of their holes every time there is a mass killing now) "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Yes that may be right, but I guarantee you that it wouldn't be so easy for "people to kill people" if they didn't have such easy access to guns. Or how about this one: "Well if one of those students were packing heat they would have been able to stop the gunman before he could have killed more people." Yeah right, like a mother f****r wants to be packing his Glock along with his organic chemistry book in his book bag every fu****g day.

But hey, such is life in this John Wayne culture of ours in America. We have to be free to keep purchasing our guns and killing each other at will. You never know when an unjust government might want to infringe on our Second Amendment rights. Or God forbid, a liberal might get out of line.

50 comments:

Christopher Chambers said...

Dude, if the kids were packing guns then there would have been gunfights long before this over the sloppy Joe's served in the cafeteria, or who acted a bigger ho during Spring Break (then a cop or another bystander would have been shoot trying to aim at this killer). The university utterly failed kids and parents as well.

Now the truly sick thing--taking the right wingers logic, I think we should racially profile all Asians and Indians/Pakistanis on campuses. We aready do that to innocent Muslims, so no worries there. After all, they wig out when they get below a B+ or break up with a girl, and they have packed the science and engineering programs (Mr. Charlie can't blame us or the Mexicans for that!), so what would be the deal, I'd say to white folks!

The media failed too, by the way. Now it'[s plastered over every station when all they want to talk about is American Idol...

field negro said...

"Now the truly sick thing--taking the right wingers logic, I think we should racially profile all Asians and Indians/Pakistanis on campuses. We aready do that to innocent Muslims, so no worries there. After all, they wig out when they get below a B+ or break up with a girl, and they have packed the science and engineering programs (Mr. Charlie can't blame us or the Mexicans for that!), so what would be the deal, I'd say to white folks!"

Chris you are killing me! Honestly, I think your sarcasm is worse than mine.

But on a real note, I am just now hearing that it might have been an Asian student here on a students visa that committed these crimes.

Oh Lawd, I can just hear the FAKE NEWS people now: "Close the borders before it's too late"

francis said...

For the longest time I've supported the war...while ignoring the crime that goes on daily in the US. My justification was that-the war was more important, and that crime was secondary. My logic was simple, these people "hit us at home and need to pay".

I blasted people regularly for not supporting the war, and labled them "draft dodgers"...in jest! if they didn't or if I differed with their view. After today, it's hard for any man to logically justify the occupation of another man's home when we can't even walk the street's of our own.

This incident has opened my eye's.

Peace!

rikyrah said...

My heart literally aches for those families who got that call today. I went to a small town college. Though it was in the middle of nowhere, and there were limitations, there was something so beautiful and simple about it too. I thought it was how everybody should go to school. There was a calm, peaceful, friendly atmosphere around campus and in the college town. It was a surreal existence, and the outside world was just that -outside.

That innocence was lost for those who died today, and for the community left behind, which will never be the same again.

Let's say a prayer for all of them.

PS-One of the first ones to die, the RA, was a Brother named Ryan Clarke. He had musical skills -he was in the marching band. Handsome Brother. I know his mother's heart is broken tonight. She thought she had him on the right track...and now, he's gone.

RIP all fallen souls.

Anonymous said...

Colleges and universities will never allow students to carry guns on campus. The risk of lawsuits would be too great, I would think. Even if a student were trying to take out a crazed gunman. Miss the gunman and kill innocent bystanders instead? Consider yourself sued. A wrongful death lawsuit could be enough to put a university out of business. And the student would end up doing time for murder.

LLR said...

Now you will hear all the NRA apologist say; (they come out of their holes every time there is a mass killing now) "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Yes that may be right, but I guarantee you that it wouldn't be so easy for "people to kill people" if they didn't have such easy access to guns. Or how about this one: "Well if one of those students were packing heat they would have been able to stop the gunman before he could have killed more people." Yeah right, like a mother f****r wants to be packing his glock along with his organic chemistry book in his book bag every fu****g day.

Every time something like this happens the anti-gun crowd comes out and says that we need tougher gun laws. Well let me tell you something. Criminals don’t obey gun laws. If I am correct it’s illegal to carry on a college campus in that state. Obviously this guy didn’t get that memo. I read an article where they said that the campus police “hold” dozens of guns for students everyday. The guns have to be checked in and check out by cops. So I guess a “mother f****r wants to be packing his glock along with his organic chemistry book in his book bag every fu****g day.”

What kills me is how people say that rap music doesn’t make people kill people but guns do. Give me a break. I have a right to own and carry a gun in this country. This is a single incident carried out by a crazy guy. For all we know he could have gotten the guns from the “hood” or he could have just purchased them minutes before he started shooting. Either way I think people with concealed carry permits should be able to carry on college campuses.

What about those Black Panthers that carried guns?

LLR said...

Colleges and universities will never allow students to carry guns on campus.

Utah does. Gun free zones are a joke.

plez... said...

I just had dinner with a colleague from Norway; they have like 1 or 2 murders per year in the whole damn country! Their police officers don't even carry guns; he said an occasional officer may carry one in his car, but never on his person.

The proliferation of guns and the "gun culture" (exacerbated by the NRA and that damned 2nd Amendment) have killed far more innocent people in this country than it would ever protect. We need to do away with the damn things... we need to do away with the damn things! Ask any parent of a student who will not be coming home after this massacre in Blacksburg, VA and they will agree: we need to do away with the damn things!

Guns. Who needs 'em?

DivineLavender said...

I got to speak up for residential life/student affairs professionals across the nation...

We are heart broken. I am heart broken. I work with students, their parents, student staff, etc, etc every day. Each year I begin wanting to return each of my students to their parents the same way they were "given" to me.


I can't give two flying F's about the politics, gun lobby, ethnicity, major, vista, or any other bullshit. During my career I have lived through students killing themselves and killing others. No law, no newcast, nothing brings our students back. Nothing. I feel that.

That RA could have been one of mine! I am one of those professionals that would be escorting the parents to the morgue to identify their child. I am one of those professionals that have to pack up a residence hall room of a deceased students. I am one of those people on campus organizing candle vigils. I am one of those folks that are making sure we have grief counselors on campus so students don't lose their mind and kill themselves because of the deep depression.


I am sorry. I can't jump to blame or point the finger. I and my higher education/student affairs/residential life/counseling/student life professionals are focusing on the lives lost and saving more lives tonight, tomorrow, next week and next year. I can't blame....I ain't that far ahead.


There are blood stained carpets and tiles that are still stained!


I might be able to step back and analyze, propose, suggest, and make demands later. Right now, I can't imagine how my colleages are adjusting to 30 plus students and staff being shot to death on this very Monday morning.


Maybe, I am too sensitive. Lives were changed and because of my profession, we are the ones helping to clean up the blood, name the bodies, and reveal the records to the authorities.


I just can't do anything other than grieve right now....Check back with me later.


The Heart Broken Higher Education Professional,
-Divine

The Christian Progressive Liberal said...

What can be said about a tragedy such as this one?

Field, you said it all. Until America starts accepting responsibility for facilitating the violence in our country, America will continue to self-destruct.

Rikyrah, I'm with you on praying for the families of the 32 students shot, especially the brother you mentioned. I can't begin to imagine how his mother thought she got her son on the right track, only to have him taken away.

As far as the NRA are concerned, they will get spit in their eye from me for even daring to argue about their 2nd Amendment rights. Those jackasses still can't give you a reason for liberal gun access when you hit them with tragedies like this, and they need to drink their collective glasses of STHU.

Anonymous said...

Black Muslim called Michelle Malkin a political ho.

http://www.rawstory.com/showoutarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bradblog.com%2F%3Fp%3D4401

rikyrah said...

PPSS-One of the amateur videographers was a man from the Middle East, who had told Larry King that he had chosen that school specifically because he wanted to get as far away from the violence in the Middle East. Talk about irony.

field said...

"The proliferation of guns and the "gun culture" (exacerbated by the NRA and that damned 2nd Amendment) have killed far more innocent people in this country than it would ever protect. We need to do away with the damn things"

Well said Plez, that should be a newspaper editorial right there. And rikyrah, thanks for the update on that RA that was killed.I feel for his family.

divinelavender, I appreciate your heart felt candor, this touched you in a real way, and I respect your position.

llr, you are right; criminals don't obey gun laws, so does that mean we have to make it easy for them to get guns? Let me ask you a question: If you are a hunter or even a gun collector, do you have to purchase say fifty to a hundred guns a year? I mean seriously, this is the type of numbers that we are talking about with these straw purchasers here in Pennsylvania for instance. Of course you know what they turn around and do with all those guns don't you; yes, they sell their weapons on the street for two and three times the amount for what they paid for them.

Now I ask you Mr. NRA man,is that sensible gun legislation? To be able to buy as much guns as you want just because they are there? Give me a break!

And if he did purchase the guns from the "hood", as you so whitely put it, I gurantee you that the people in the "hood" got them from a straw buyer.

But hey,sounds like you are into guns, so if you want to make a real killing, (like that metaphor?) come to Pennsylvania and become a straw purchaser. You will be rich rich rich beyond your wildest dreams.

Now you will leave lots of dead bodies in your wake. But from reading your post, I doubt if you care about that kind of thing ;)

mark said...

Yo Field good post, I agree with you that it should be a national tragedy when all of these young black men are slaughtered.

But this is the deal field, as long as black folk dont respect ourselves we cannot expect anyone else to respect including the american goverment.

Also fu#k the Nra they are a bunch rats, still trying to justify high powered riffles specifically made for massacres. Im convinced that if it were young white boys bieng slaughtered in the streets the black boys are slaughtered in the streets thier whole tune on gun laws would change. They are a bunch of pricks.

LLR said...

llr, you are right; criminals don't obey gun laws, so does that mean we have to make it easy for them to get guns? Let me ask you a question: If you are a hunter or even a gun collector, do you have to purchase say fifty to a hundred guns a year? I mean seriously, this is the type of numbers that we are talking about with these straw purchasers here in Pennsylvania for instance. Of course you know what they turn around and do with all those guns don't you; yes, they sell their weapons on the street for two and three times the amount for what they paid for them.
Once again you are talking about people breaking the law. It’s against the law to make straw purchases. Please tell me how many guns you think is enough? Who are you to decide how many is enough for everyone?

Now I ask you Mr. NRA man,is that sensible gun legislation? To be able to buy as much guns as you want just because they are there? Give me a break!
Why don’t’ you try and get the 2nd amendment repealed?

And if he did purchase the guns from the "hood", as you so whitely put it, I gurantee you that the people in the "hood" got them from a straw buyer.
According to an article that I had a receipt for a Glock that was purchased in March so I guess he got the gun(s) through legal channels.

But hey,sounds like you are into guns, so if you want to make a real killing, (like that metaphor?) come to Pennsylvania and become a straw purchaser. You will be rich rich rich beyond your wildest dreams.
That’s against the law and I don’t do straw purchases. I would rather get rich through legal channels. Thanks for the offer though.


We are talking about a constitutional RIGHT that people choose to exercise. We don’t get rid of the 1st amendment because the KK uses it. We don’t get rid of the 5th amendment just because a criminal manages not to incriminate himself, so why get rid of the 2nd amendment because several people abuse it. Yeah I own several guns. I use them for protection and target shooting.

Once again I will ask you. What about those Black Panthers that used the 2nd amendment during the civil rights era? What about the black people that used guns to help defend themselves during times when the KKK was lynching people.

francis said...

Actually straw purchases were banned in Virginia only after it was discovered that many of gun's being sold ended up on the streets of NY. A lawsuite was filed by the mayor of NY against several retail chains. What was their initial
response...mocking the mayor by having Bloomberg Firearms Sales.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/2007/04/17/2007-04-17_yes_virginia_guns_kill_innocents-2.html

LLR said...

Actually straw purchases were banned in Virginia only after it was discovered that many of gun's being sold ended up on the streets of NY..

The fact still remains that this gun got the guns through legal channels which included the fact that he could only buy 1 firearm per month. He had 2 guns. Some are saying a 9mm and a .22 and others are saying 2 9mm handguns.

francis said...

llr: Once again I will ask you. What about those Black Panthers that used the 2nd amendment during the civil rights era? What about the black people that used guns to help defend themselves during times when the KKK was lynching people.

When I see whites being knocked in the head Rodney King style within there own communities, then we can talk about the panthers.

The Angry Independent said...

Field,

Good post as usual.

I am pro-gun control... but what would be your solution?

More gun control laws would not have necessarily made much of a difference in this case.

A nationwide ban would require a Constitutional amendment... you and I both know that this will not happen. And a ban would not likely work considering the amount of guns in circulation on the street in the underground market. If someone wants a gun they will be able to get it one way or another.

Now did someone drop the ball in this case? From what I am reading/hearing, I say yes. Just like in Katrina, all levels of government failed here....at least with the Federal and local authorities, as well as with the University management and Police.

IMO non-citizens should not be able to purchase a weapon... permanent resident status or not. How in the hell is that possible after 9/11 and all of this Real ID Act bullsh*t that they have us complying with now? Would that have prevented this? Probably not, but it would have made it a hell of a lot harder for the suspect to carry out his plan.

AND this guy was described as a "troubled" young man...and had stalked or threated female students. Red flags all over the place.... but no policy for dealing with it. If he's stalking folks...how was allowed to live on campus?????????

The holes in Campus security are well known and should have been dealt with by now... but no one wants to lead the way.

Other alternative and creative solutions have to be discussed... any solution would involve layers of different barriers that (if used properly) could prevent or disrupt these kinds of incidents. By layers I mean... everything from gun checks, University reporting suspicious behavior, zero tolerance on campus, better security on campus, better law enforcement preparedness, better procedures, etc.

But restricting gun sales alone would not be a solution...and banning guns altogether is just not possible, as we both know.

And I agree about the inner cities. They have always been neglected. The Feds even cut a program that showed progress... the COPS program.

But as long as there is a serious gang problem and drug dealers operating in the inner cities, there will always be an incentive for the criminals to hold onto their guns... that's why buy-back programs are not all that successful. If you have parts of cities that are like warzones, you have people who are living in fear and feel the need to have these weapons. Therefore, more has to be done to deal with the underlying conditions..and causes of violence gangs, poverty, drug activity, etc... before long-term gun initiatives can really make an impact. People have to feel safe in their own communities.

Peter Johnson said...

Of course the Virginia Tech shooting is a uniquely tragic event, and it is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. However, we must also consider if this is not also a lesson to us all; a lesson that my political views are correct. Although what is done can never be undone, the fact remains that if the world were organised according to my political views, this tragedy would never have happened.

Many people will use this terrible tragedy as an excuse to put through a political agenda other than my own. This tawdry abuse of human suffering for political gain sickens me to the core of my being. Those people who have different political views from me ought to be ashamed of themselves for thinking of cheap partisan point-scoring at a time like this. In any case, what this tragedy really shows us is that, so far from putting into practice political views other than my own, it is precisely my political agenda which ought to be advanced.
Not only are my political views vindicated by this terrible tragedy, but also the status of my profession. Furthermore, it is only in the context of a national and international tragedy like this that we are reminded of the very special status of my hobby, and its particular claim to legislative protection. My religious and spiritual views also have much to teach us about the appropriate reaction to these truly terrible events.

Countries which I like seem to never suffer such tragedies, while countries which, for one reason or another, I dislike, suffer them all the time. The one common factor which seems to explain this has to do with my political views, and it suggests that my political views should be implemented as a matter of urgency, even though they are, as a matter of fact, not implemented in the countries which I like.

Of course the Virginia Tech shooting is a uniquely tragic event, and it is vital that we never lose sight of the human tragedy involved. But we must also not lose sight of the fact that I am right on every significant moral and political issue, and everybody ought to agree with me. Please, I ask you as fellow human beings, vote for the political party which I support, and ask your legislators to support policies endorsed by me, as a matter of urgency.

It would be a fitting memorial.

--PJ

(plagarized from a friend's response to 9/11)

LLR said...

When I see whites being knocked in the head Rodney King style within there own communities, then we can talk about the panthers.

What does that have to do with law-abiding citizens having a gun for self defense?

A nationwide ban would require a Constitutional amendment... you and I both know that this will not happen.
And it should never happen!

And a ban would not likely work considering the amount of guns in circulation on the street in the underground market. If someone wants a gun they will be able to get it one way or another.
The people that will suffer the most will be law-abiding citizens that have been disarmed by the gov’t that is supposed to protect them.

Unless the gov’t is going o give everyone a personal security guard or cops that swears to protect them, you better hang up getting rid of the 2nd amendment.

Maxjulian said...

Field: There's a connection between this post and the Imus post. People who do this kind thing are, more often than not, made, not born. People are sent clear messages that their tortured souls - tortured by racism/white supremacy, poverty, injustice as a structural condition - receive clearly.

And these tortured souls are offered limited options of expression...in this so-called free country.

It is no wonder that people repeatedly express themselves through violence. That is normative behavior. A wise country would remove the tools of violent expression and/or offer MANY alternatives and opportunities that would allow authentic, healthy modes of expression.

There's this line in 'The Matrix' where Neo Anderson asks for his phone call as he is being held in custody. "Tell me, Mr. Anderson... what good is a phone call... if you're unable to speak?"

They create and maintain a diseased, unjust society, discourage, undermine and steal your ability to speak, they give you hate mongers and propagandists like the Imus to stir the pot...and they huddle in their gated, patrolled communities to avoid the scientific gunplay manufactured in their devilish lab.

What good is verbalizing your pain when you can grab a gun?

Anonymous said...

Could the right wing white people please take a hike and go post on the NRA blog? You always leave out the part about the "well maintained militia" when you quote the Second Amendment. I don't think the NRA is a militia, the crips and bloods sure as hell aren't, and neither was this Asian kid in Virginia, who was here legally on a green card since 1991.

As for the Black Panthers: I seem to recall that the police shot up and framed a bunch of them. The shoot-out that butchered Mark Clark in Chicago led to a successful lawsuit against the police department that was resolved sometime in the 1990s. Geronimo Pratt was imprisoned for a double murder he never committed. The Panther's paid dearly for their right to bear arms. Don't forget Bobby Hutton's murder here in Oakland byt he OPD. Get out of here with that nonsense.

...in Oakland

LLR said...

Could the right wing white people please take a hike and go post on the NRA blog?

I am black, and also a member of the NRA but who said that because you are black you can’t support the right to bear arms? Now fir FN doesn’t want me to visit his blog or post on here, he can say so and I will not visit or post. So unless you’re FN you can’t say anything.

As for the Black Panthers: I seem to recall that the police shot up and framed a bunch of them. The shoot-out that butchered Mark Clark in Chicago led to a successful lawsuit against the police department that was resolved sometime in the 1990s. Geronimo Pratt was imprisoned for a double murder he never committed. The Panther's paid dearly for their right to bear arms. Don't forget Bobby Hutton's murder here in Oakland byt he OPD. Get out of here with that nonsense.
So are you saying that black people shouldn’t own firearms? So you’re saying that the black panthers should not have had firearms? So are you saying that the Deacons for Defense should not have had firearms?
Get real. Firearms are a RIGHT in this country protected by the 2nd amendment. The same way that you have the right to free speech, freedom or religion, etc, you also have the right to bear arms. That is unless you’re a felon, crazy, illegal immigrant, etc. You can choose to exercise that right or not, but don’t’ go trying to take my rights away because you don’t’ agree with them.

The Angry Independent said...

CNN, MSNBC...and all the rest are already jumping into a discussion about gun control... when it has absolutely nothing to do with this kind of security vulnerability.

I guess these pundits & politicians just need SOMETHING to rant about...

These pundits should leave this to the Law enforcement/criminal justice folks....

The Gov. of Virginia has already stated that he is putting together a team for an after-action review.
They will likely come to many of the same conclusions that several others (including myself) have already come to.

My problem with the after-action effort is that much of what they will look into has already been reviewed countless times... THEY KNOW what the vulnerabilities are... there is already consensus in criminal justice circles about many of the issues surrounding this. The problem is that the politicians have not acted on it....because it costs money to do what is necessary.

The Angry Independent said...

And Field!!

Can we get a bigger photo of the House Negro please?

And I say...leave her up there for the remainder of the month....
She deserves "Honorary House Negro" status.

field said...

AI, I will put my cards on the table right now; I am pro gun control. But I am also a realist, and I understand that we can never abolish the Second Amendment in this country. But I would like to see sensible gun control laws. I mean I get the whole I need to hunt, and I should be free to own my own weapon thing. But I live in Pennsylvania, and why shouldn't the city of Philadelphia be allowed to pass seperate gun legislation for Philadelphia County than the rest of the state? (which is very rural and big on hunting)

In D.C. they tried to ban handguns (The will of the people in the District) and the courts struck that down.

Let's be honest, the NRA is such a powerful lobby, that there is not a politician who would dare to stand up tp them. So we can't even have an honest and pragmatic debate on this subject.

maxjulian was also right. The level of frustration and marginalization felt by many in this country, is a direct result of living in this moral contradiction known as America.

And llr, I will always welcome your views. No matter how much we might disagree, it's never personal. Anon in Oakland is very pasionate, and obviously so are you. So hey, let's get it on. That's why we have blogs, to argue,reason, and learn from each other;as well as exchange ideas.

And AI, you are right, the current House Negro needs a bigger picture and house Negro recognition for more than just a day :)

C-dell said...

Sorry to be lacking in the comments. I am still in awe of this whole situation. I live on campus and if Virgina Tech is any thing like Louisiana Tech I do not see how a man can kill people in the dorms and then walk all the way to the main campus. That is a horrible and sad thing.

LLR said...

AI, I will put my cards on the table right now; I am pro gun control. But I am also a realist, and I understand that we can never abolish the Second Amendment in this country. But I would like to see sensible gun control laws.
I am glad that you are honest about your views. At least you’re not one of those “I support the 2nd amendment but” people.


I mean I get the whole I need to hunt, and I should be free to own my own weapon thing. But I live in Pennsylvania, and why shouldn't the city of Philadelphia be allowed to pass seperate gun legislation for Philadelphia County than the rest of the state? (which is very rural and big on hunting)
Now in my opinion most gun laws are unconstitutional. It’s that simple. I can understand some of the laws like not letting people have guns in prisons and stuff like that but other than that, most gun laws are just BS. They are just “feel good” laws. When you take away the right to carry at a particular place you are actually making yourself less safe because it’s like shooting fish in a barrel. You can’t carry in a church (at least in my state) so if a shooter or robber wants to have a easy robber or shooting the best place would be a place where people are unarmed. We have heard about shooting everywhere. We have had them at schools, churches, post offices, but we have never heard of any shooting at an NRA convention now have we.


In D.C. they tried to ban handguns (The will of the people in the District) and the courts struck that down.
Come on Field. They had a gun ban for 30 years and I don’t care what the will of the people is when it comes to RIGHTS. Let’s say that 80%+ of this country may be Christian and the “will of the people” is to abolish other religions. Would you support that b/c it’s the will of the people? That’s the thing about rights. They can’t be taken away by the will of the people. Anotehr thing is that my right to bear arms doesn’t infringe on anyone else’s rights. How does it hurt anyone that I may have 3 dozen guns in my house and 5,000 rounds of ammo? Not at all. The same way that it doesn’t hurt me that someone may be a Muslim, Catholic, etc.

Let's be honest, the NRA is such a powerful lobby, that there is not a politician who would dare to stand up tp them. So we can't even have an honest and pragmatic debate on this subject. They are powerful because they are protecting real rights. The 2nd amendment is not just some law. It’s a RIGHT.

And llr, I will always welcome your views. No matter how much we might disagree, it's never personal. Anon in Oakland is very pasionate, and obviously so are you. So hey, let's get it on. That's why we have blogs, to argue,reason, and learn from each other;as well as exchange ideas. Thanks Field. I think that I may pull up a chair.

I am sick and tired of people always wanting to take away my and other people’s rights. You just can’t do that. No one is trying to ban freedom of speech, religion, or the press because the constitution was written hundreds of years ago before the internet, radio, TV, or blogs. What about the 4th amendment. Times have changed. Wouldn’t it be OK to put a camera in every citizen’s house and we will know who commits what crimes. What about the 3rd? I am sure that you won’t mind housing a few soldiers for a few nights. Don’t we need to get rid of the 6th amendment? I mean times have changed and since we now have cameras in each house there is no need for a trial when we have a tape of the crime. I could go on and on, but I will stop my rant.

I think that I man need to double my donation that I made to the NRA today because I can see that there are a lot more antis than I thought!

Oh I forgot. What about those Deacons for Defense and the Black Panthers that had guns during the civil rights era? They didn’t really need them did they?

field negro said...

"Oh I forgot. What about those Deacons for Defense and the Black Panthers that had guns during the civil rights era? They didn’t really need them did they? "

llr, I definately detect the sarcasm when you ask that question.
But IMHO, of course they needed them! There ws a f*****g revolution going on for crying out loud! Those brothers were set for extermination by the cross dresser and his ilk.

And I was right, you are passionate. But will you acknowledge at least, that the Second Amendment as it stands today is not exactly what the framers intended?

I mean, WTF? Do we really need "bushmasters", Uzis, and AK 47's to hunt bambi? And what about our law enforcement officials who honestly believe that they are being out gunned by the criminals?

Shouldn't we be trying to protect them. I mean can we at least get a compromise on this? Let's at least ban certain assault weapons in this country. Why won't the NRA consider that? It is hardly slippery slope territory in my book.

LLR said...

But IMHO, of course they needed them! There ws a f*****g revolution going on for crying out loud! Those brothers were set for extermination by the cross dresser and his ilk.
Who is to say that another revolution isn’t on the way? People are always talking about the crimes that white people are committing against black, but they want to take away a means of defense. People are always talking about domestic violence committed by women against men, but they don’t want the women to have a firearm.

And I was right, you are passionate.
Hell eyah I am passionate about my rights. I would be just as upset if the gov’t was trying to regulate my religion, speech or take away anymore of my RIGHTS!

But will you acknowledge at least, that the Second Amendment as it stands today is not exactly what the framers intended?
Let me see. Last time I checked there will always be self-defense. Plus we never know what the gov’t is going to do. LOL


I mean, WTF? Do we really need "bushmasters", Uzis, and AK 47's to hunt bambi?
No but they are still protected by the 2nd amendment. It says that it shall not be infringed.

And what about our law enforcement officials who honestly believe that they are being out gunned by the criminals?
Looks like those police depts. Need to upgrade equipment and hire more officers.

Shouldn't we be trying to protect them. I mean can we at least get a compromise on this? Let's at least ban certain assault weapons in this country. Why won't the NRA consider that? It is hardly slippery slope territory in my book.
Field there are already tons of outlawed guns. Automatic weapons are already banned by the feds. You can’t have a shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches. Do you need me to name more for ya? There are thousands across this great country. Now are you telling me that you think that the politicians in the gov’t know what’s best for me and my gun selections? Also please define “assault weapons” for me. Please.

I can remember when Katrina was going on and the gov’t was taking away guns from law-abiding black citizens. It was the NRA that was coming to their defense. It was the NRA that was lobbing Congress to make sure that it never happens again. It was the NRA that was fighting for the gov’t to return those guns to black folks.

With a all of the gun laws on the books, criminals still manage to get guns and law-abiding citizens are getting screwed. DC is a prime example of this.

Francis L. Holland Blog said...

The "Francis" above, who says, "For the longest time I've supported the war . . . " has got nothing to do with the Francis L. Holland Blog. I don't know WHO the "Francis" above is!

The NRA says, "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." Likewise, Anthrax doesn't kill people. "People kill people" with anthrax. OK, NRA. Thanks for clearing that up for us! I guess that means anthrax isn't dangerous and should be available over the counter at your local drugstore.

LLR said...

I guess that means anthrax isn't dangerous and should be available over the counter at your local drugstore.

Last time I checked there was no constitutional amendment that gave people the right to anthrax. Like Anthrax, guns are already regulated. You can’t be a felon, declared mentally nuts, illegal immigrant, etc.
There are a ton of things that we can kill people like knives (available in most kitchens across the nation) cars (people die in car wrecks every day) water (people drown people all of the time). Then there are the people that choke people to death. The list can go on and on.

Just because we may not agree with someone’s religion, that doesn’t mean that we should get rid of the 1st amendment. Just because we don’t like the fact that cops can’t just bust into a known drug dealer’s house doesn’t mean that we repeal the 4th amendment. Just because we got someone on tape killing or stealing doesn’t mean that we don’t give them their 6th amendment rights. Do I need to go on?

Gun rights don’t violate any one else’s rights any more than some one else’s religions violates my rights.
Westboro Baptist Church intends on protesting at the funerals’ of the slain kids in Virginia. Personally I think that’s just sick, but hey it’s constitutional. This is the same church that protests the funerals of slain soldiers. As mad as it makes me there is nothing that we can do unless they actually break the law. They aren’t “harming” anyone by protesting, but I just think that it’s sick that they protest at the funerals of people that have given their life for this country.

For all of the people that want “reasonable gun control laws” like limiting purchases to one a month, think about this.
Right now we have a problem with STDs like HIV and AIDS. In order to slow down the spread of these horrible diseases, the gov’t is going to limit all citizens to one different sexual partner a month. We are also going to have a national registry of all people that have AIDS and keep up with them. If they have sex with anyone w/o the disease they must use a condom. To not do so would be a felony.

People would be outraged. They would be calling for the politicians’ heads, but when it comes to guns (which are protected by the 2nd amendment), oh it’s OK.

Maxjulian said...

BTW: Plez had the post of the day.

Owning a gun is NOT a God given right! I mean people act like their gun is a crucifix or something, like its a part of some religious ceremony that's inviolable. They call the gunman insane; no, this is the insanity that produced HIS insanity.

Who needs a gun, indeed, Plez? I'd rather those deads kids were here, instead of some bogus right to a gun. That a product of death takes precedence over people's right to life itself, explains what this country REALLY is all about. They sell cancer called cigarettes, they sell guns that put holes in people. The real inviolable right is the right to make money off of misery.

LLR said...

Owning a gun is NOT a God given right!
It’s a constitutional right just like freedom of religion, speech, etc.

They call the gunman insane; no, this is the insanity that produced HIS insanity.
His guy was insane. It’s that plain and simple. Let’s say that eh went form dorm room to dorm room with a big knife hacking off people’s heads. Would we be talking about machetes?

Who needs a gun, indeed, Plez?
I can think of a bunch of people in Darfur that can use some firearms. I’ll go back o what I said earlier about the Black Panthers and the Deacons for Defense. They had guns but according to your logic they should have been unarmed.

That a product of death takes precedence over people's right to life itself, explains what this country REALLY is all about. They sell cancer called cigarettes, they sell guns that put holes in people. The real inviolable right is the right to make money off of misery.
Smoking is a choice. If you don’t’ want to smoke and possibly get cancer then don’t smoke. If you don’t want a gun, then don’t buy one. Once again it is a choice. What about Planned Parenthood and abortion? Are they making money off of misery? Are abortion clinics across the country selling death? Does that mean that because we allow abortions that we are all about death?

Francis L. Holland Blog said...

If American Blacks have a Constitutional right to own guns, then why are we so often shot for holding cell-phones that only LOOK like guns? Let's get real!

There's plenty of room in the Second Amendment to harmonize and interpret it's requirements in a new way that becomes consistent with the survival of American civilization, before its too late.

The founders could never have imagined that the Second Amendment would allow people to buy a crate full of machine guns over the Internet, for "personal use." The Second Amendment is being interpreted too broadly to be consistent with the survival needs of 21st Century American civilization.

AFROSPHERE ACTION ALERT - Ron and Roy Pettaway Shot from Behind by Fulton County GA Police! One Killed. Please call relevant officials and ask for statement for Afrosphere publication. Names and phone numbers provided.

Francis L. Holland Blog

Exodus Mentality blog.

LLR said...

The founders could never have imagined that the Second Amendment would allow people to The founders could never have imagined that the Second Amendment would allow people to buy a crate full of machine guns over the Internet, for "personal use."

That is so untrue. First off when you say machine guns I assume that you mean fully automatic weapons which have been outlawed for decades, so you can’t “buy a crate full of machine guns over the Internet, for "personal use." Then when you do buy a gun off the internet you MUST have it shipped to a gun dealer in your state who then does the background check after you have filled out a 4473 form! Please state facts.

I hate/love it when people try and use buzz words like machine gun and assault weapons. Would you please define machine gun for me and post a link to a website that sells them by the crate. Yeah I’m calling you out!

Maxjulian said...

llr: The choices that people in this society make are "conditioned." The desires/wants/needs of us are conditioned by media, by the owners of media who, coincidentally, own the country. You think you're free because you get to own a gun, because someone told you you had some right to it? You aren't free - not because of some second ammendment.

I mean, who were those men who wrote that, God? They were elites who were only concerned about their class interests. They weren't thinking about yours.

Have you thought beyond that? That some so-called rights might be worth forfeiting, particularly when tremendous harm is caused by that right you hold so dear?

No, a right is a right is a right, RIGHT? They criminalize pot and cocaine, but legalize alcohol - why can't we make those choices? Because somebody controls the range of choices that you have for THEIR benefit, not for the benefit of society, not for your benefit.

They're playing you and you are falling for it.

LLR said...

llr: The choices that people in this society make are "conditioned." The desires/wants/needs of us are conditioned by media, by the owners of media who, coincidentally, own the country. You think you're free because you get to own a gun, because someone told you you had some right to it? You aren't free - not because of some second ammendment.

I mean, who were those men who wrote that, God? They were elites who were only concerned about their class interests. They weren't thinking about yours.

Have you thought beyond that? That some so-called rights might be worth forfeiting, particularly when tremendous harm is caused by that right you hold so dear?

No, a right is a right is a right, RIGHT? They criminalize pot and cocaine, but legalize alcohol - why can't we make those choices? Because somebody controls the range of choices that you have for THEIR benefit, not for the benefit of society, not for your benefit.

They're playing you and you are falling for it.


Where do I even start.

First off I am free and not just because I can own a gun. I do own guns, but I do for self defense and just for fun target shooting. That right is afforded to me by the constitution.

Now I can see what you are trying to say about how it wasn’t written for me, but at the same time it protects me just the same. If I am arrested I still get my 6th amendment rights. If I want a gun I can just drive a few minutes to the local gun store and pick up one. I don’t’ have any felonies, haven’t been committed to a mental institution, etc so I do have that right.
Also take a look at our elected officials today and tell me that they aren’t elites. Even the CBC is full of elites. We still vote them in to protect our RIGHTS and they too take the oath to uphold the constitution of the US. So when the CBC members vote to give illegal immigrants citizenship which hurts lower skilled blacks, ask them if they are thinking about the interest of the lower skilled blacks.

Now I can see where you are going with the drugs. Yeah they outlaw marijuana and cocaine and allow alcohol. They also outlaw sawed off shotguns below 18 inches and fully automatic weapons, but I can still buy semi-auto weapons, single shot guns, revolvers, etc.

Now tell me how I am being played because I choose to own a gun. If YOU don’t want one then don’t’ get one. You can forfeit that right, but don’t try to take away my RIGHTS because you don’t’ like them.

I will once again I will ask. What about the Black Panthers and deacons for Defense that had firearms for self-defense. What about the blacks that had guns in their house and cars for self defense against the KKK and others? Did they not need the 2nd amendment?

field said...

"Now tell me how I am being played because I choose to own a gun. If YOU don’t want one then don’t’ get one. You can forfeit that right, but don’t try to take away my RIGHTS because you don’t’ like them."

llr, there is the rub. Yes, if I don't want one I wont get one, but you having one might effect my life in a very negative way.

What if someone breaks into your home and steals one of your (I am sure many) guns? Now that same perp turns around and shoots my ass with your GUN, is that fair to me, who has just as much constitutional rights as you do? I mean, you are f*****g with my rights to pursue happiness when that happens right? And the last time I checked, the constitution gives me that right.(to pursue happiness) I can't pursue happiness if I can't walk around my block without the fear of getting my head blown off by some knuckle head with a gat.

And before you say, we should make stronger laws to keep the guns away from these criminals, I dare say that less guns for everyone would make it much harder for these idiots to get their hands on one.

Hey, I have seen one too many guns can do to a society, and it ain't pretty. I would love to get into this more with you, but time does not permit right now.

I will catch you on the B side.

LLR said...

What if someone breaks into your home and steals one of your (I am sure many) guns? Now that same perp turns around and shoots my ass with your GUN, is that fair to me, who has just as much constitutional rights as you do? I mean, you are f*****g with my rights to pursue happiness when that happens right? And the last time I checked, the constitution gives me that right.(to pursue happiness) I can't pursue happiness if I can't walk around my block without the fear of getting my head blown off by some knuckle head with a gat.

What if a some guys decide to trespass on your private property and steal your cars. They then take those cars and run over my ass with them. Now what is we gone do? I can’t pursue happiness because I am in a wheelchair because YOU owned a car.

And before you say, we should make stronger laws to keep the guns away from these criminals, I dare say that less guns for everyone would make it much harder for these idiots to get their hands on one.

Fewer cars means few auto related deaths. Fewer knives means fewer stabbings. Less sex means fewer people with AIDs and HIV so should the gov’t regulate sex to the degree that we can only have 1 sexual partner a month?

Maxjulian said...

Guns are a great balm for the insecure and a great boon for their manufacturers.

Advertising propaganda breeds insecurity, whether it be zits, breasts, lipo and personal safety. This manufactured insecurity becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as people begin to reflect the brainwashing, believe that they need these products to address problems that require fundamental changes in our culture; have amazing arguments for why they not only need, but are entitled to these products and services.


Its amazing to see folks become consumers of products that offer life, yet produce death or offer beauty, when they produce the ugliest human beings on the planet.

Plez mentioned countries that have 1-2 murders per year; guns aren't going to make that happen here. Quite the contrary; but people don't need guns in healthy societies.

ElitistJohn said...

ILR, bollocks.

Okay, someone brought up Anthrax. Now lets take a leetle sit down ILR, and do some reading of the 2nd Amendment.

Hmm...take a look here...I don't see any mention of "guns". I only see "arms". In fact, some individuals back in the day privately owned cannon. So if we're going with strict interpretation of your favorite amendment, ILR, it allows "the right to keep and bear _arms_"...of which "guns" are only a subset.

Weaponized Anthrax is an armament. Ergo, under the 2nd Amendment its entirely kosher to have some in appropriately secured storage in my basement. Hell...if your next door neighbor knows what he's doing and has the right containment, some nice Sarin is comnpletely 2nd Amendment acceptable. Ditto on a backpack nuke, napalm, or any other standard armament.

You shouldn't have any problem with that, right?

Just curious.

LLR said...

Guns are a great balm for the insecure and a great boon for their manufacturers..
Insecure? What are you talking about? If someone likes to shoot targets they are insecure? I can see what you are saying. A lot of teenage girls are getting thinks like breat implants because “society” says that big breasts are nice. For some reason I don’t’ see anyone trying to get them outlawed along with things like lipo, plastic surgery, etc. Could it be because doing such things doesn’t infringe on anyone else’s rights just like me having 100 guns at my house?

Hmm...take a look here...I don't see any mention of "guns". I only see "arms". In fact, some individuals back in the day privately owned cannon. So if we're going with strict interpretation of your favorite amendment, ILR, it allows "the right to keep and bear _arms_"...of which "guns" are only a subset.

I am not sure if canons are legal or not. It would be cool to own one just to say that I do. I will look into it and see if I can get my hands on one. Thanks for the advice.

Hum let’s take a look at the 1st amendment. It mentions the press. Does that mean blogs, TV, radio, websites, etc. Does that mean that only newspapers and maybe magazines are covered under the 1st amendment? I’m just asking.

The constitution doesn’t mention abortion or privacy, yet people are always talking about these rights to an abortion and privacy. Please cite the amendment or language in the constitution.

When the Constitution was written the framers had no idea that we would have things like closed circuit TV that could record crimes that are committed. Does that mean that we should get rid of the 5th amendment, have a judge take a look at the tape, find the guy guilty, and sentence him accordingly.

I could go on and on, but do I really need to.

Weaponized Anthrax is an armament. Ergo, under the 2nd Amendment its entirely kosher to have some in appropriately secured storage in my basement. Hell...if your next door neighbor knows what he's doing and has the right containment, some nice Sarin is comnpletely 2nd Amendment acceptable. Ditto on a backpack nuke, napalm, or any other standard armament.

You shouldn't have any problem with that, right?

Just curious.


I am not up to snuff on the laws concerning making bombs or things like anthrax. If it’s illegal to possess (like a shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches) then people that possess such things should be willing to face the consequences of having such things.

Will someone please answer my questions regarding regulating sex to lower HIV and AIDS rates? Will someone please answer my questions about the Black Panthers and the Deacons for Defense?

Maxjulian said...

llr said: "For some reason I don’t’ see anyone trying to get them outlawed along with things like lipo, plastic surgery, etc. Could it be because doing such things doesn’t infringe on anyone else’s rights just like me having 100 guns at my house?"

No women, to my knowledge, are beating 50,000 people a year to death with their implants. So, I don't see a ban being quite as necessary for plastic surgery, as opposed to gun powder surgery.

Lola Gets said...

I wrote a post on my blog that touched (hypocritically and briefly, lol) on this very subject.

If you want to see something different, check out how other countries view the US and its stance on guns. My fave is Al Jazeera English, which can be found online.

LLR said...

No women, to my knowledge, are beating 50,000 people a year to death with their implants. So, I don't see a ban being quite as necessary for plastic surgery, as opposed to gun powder surgery.
What about all of those deaths from car accidents. What about all of the deaths from stabbing every year? Outlaw cars and knives and then you’ll see a drop in deaths.

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