Saturday, March 05, 2011

Thank you Mr. Lincoln. I think.


I know that it has been almost a month since Lincoln's birthday, but it seems that, once again, A-merry-ca is struggling with some uncomfortable truths about one of her icons.

"McLEAN, Va. – Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address has inspired Americans for generations, but consider his jarring remarks in 1862 to a White House audience of free blacks, urging them to leave the U.S. and settle in Central America.

"For the sake of your race, you should sacrifice something of your present comfort for the purpose of being as grand in that respect as the white people," Lincoln said, promoting his idea of colonization: resettling blacks in foreign countries on the belief that whites and blacks could not coexist in the same nation.

Lincoln went on to say that free blacks who envisioned a permanent life in the United States were being "selfish" and he promoted Central America as an ideal location "especially because of the similarity of climate with your native land — thus being suited to your physical condition."

As the nation celebrates the 150th anniversary of Lincoln's first inauguration Friday, a new book by a researcher at George Mason University in Fairfax makes the case that Lincoln was even more committed to colonizing blacks than previously known. The book, "Colonization After Emancipation," is based in part on newly uncovered documents that authors Philip Magness and Sebastian Page found at the British National Archives outside London and in the U.S. National Archives.

In an interview, Magness said he thinks the documents he uncovered reveal Lincoln's complexity.

"It makes his life more interesting, his racial legacy more controversial," said Magness, who is also an adjuct professor at American University.

Lincoln's views about colonization are well known among historians, even if they don't make it into most schoolbooks. Lincoln even referred to colonization in the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, his September 1862 warning to the South that he would free all slaves in Southern territory if the rebellion continued. Unlike some others, Lincoln always promoted a voluntary colonization, rather than forcing blacks to leave. "
[More]

There is nothing new to see here. I blogged about this two years ago, and Lerone Bennett, Jr. has been saying this and writing about it to anyone who is willing to listen. But this is A-merry-ca, we can't handle the truth. Not when it might throw off our rather canned narrative about who we are as a people.

So here we go again; another historian brings it up and we will collectively go into defense mode. Why shouldn't we? "Honest Abe" meant so much to us. He saved the union and freed the slaves. Yes, he harbored certain views of blacks, but we must understand the context of the time in which he lived......

Anyway, A-merry-ca can't deal with uncomfortable truths right now, we have too much on our plate. Besides, we are trying to move beyond this little issue of race. Trying. I bet if "honest Abe" was here he would know what to do.

78 comments:

Anonymous said...

But this is A-merry-ca, we can't handle the truth. Not when it might throw off our rather canned narrative about who we are as a people.


Your so right, the truth can't be handled can it? Sort of like knowing that we are very loud and disruptive in movie theaters, then getting pissed because someone else not of the same skin color ackowledges what everyone knows and trying to deny it and call it racism and beating down the people who tell the truth with attacks. What a bunch of loony tunes.

Desertflower said...

Well, as the Indians used to say,"the white man speaks with forked tongue" So I'm not too surprised at Mr. Lincolns stance. It just proves my general opinion that you can't trust 'em!

Improbable Joe said...

I don't think "putting things in historical context" is the same thing as "defending". Plus, you miss out on the maybe more significant aspect, which is that Lincoln thought it was perfectly reasonable to suggest that 4-5 million black people just go south of the border and take over whatever they wanted from those other folks already living there.

Anonymous said...

Field, I suggest you go for some REAL therapy. Please encourage your FN fans to consider such therapy:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/03/sarah-white-therapist-naked_n_830887.html

Anonymous said...

Desertflower, "Well, as the Indians used to say,"the white man speaks with forked tongue" So I'm not too surprised at Mr. Lincolns stance. It just proves my general opinion that you can't trust 'em!"

My lord, woman-don't be so hard on white folks. Don't you know you can't trust Blacks either?

CactusRose, is that you?

Anonymous said...

mr field, i don't praise a lot of anons but anon@10:10pm deserves a H/T in your side bar.:D

Desertflower said...

Yes it's me! Cactus, Desert or dried up, LOL! It's lil ole me! :)

It's just that I caaaaaaaan't trust them, ever! I have my reasons......

field negro said...

Who is Sarah White?

"Your so right, the truth can't be handled can it? Sort of like knowing that we are very loud and disruptive in movie theaters, then getting pissed because someone else not of the same skin color ackowledges what everyone knows and trying to deny it and call it racism and beating down the people who tell the truth with attacks. What a bunch of loony tunes."

Anon. some people called the "Drop Squad" keep calling for you. What should I tell them?

Dr. Jay said...

" resettling blacks in foreign countries on the belief that whites and blacks could not coexist in the same nation."

Do you disagree with President Lincoln? Based on your posts, it doesn't seem so.

Anonymous said...

Desertflower, "Yes it's me! Cactus, Desert or dried up, LOL! It's lil ole me! :)"

Where have you been for so long? Did you take a vacation or did you just get sick and tired of FN? Why aren't they rioting in PR? Don't they want to keep their benefits and money?

And you didn't answer my question about untrustworthy Blacks. Imo, they are worst than Whites. They have absolutely NO MORAL conscience--absolutely NONE. I can't tell you how many times Negroes have sold each other down the river at companies, police, relationships, even in Church!

Anonymous said...

Field, "Anon. some people called the "Drop Squad" keep calling for you. What should I tell them?"

Mr. Field, my brother. Pleeeze don't turn me in. If you were to do that, I would have race to go to. Have a little compassion.

"Love and protect your brother," sayeth the Lord.

Desertflower said...

@Anonymous 10:26pm: OMG that;s a therapist? Now see Anon, a black therapist would never do that crap! She's just another white opportunist out to make a buck. That's porn not therapy LOL!

As for where I was, I was battling throat cancer, and I won, for now at least. ;)

Anonymous said...

Desertflower, "As for where I was, I was battling throat cancer, and I won, for now at least. ;)"

I am glad you won your battle against cancer and hope you are feeling well. Judging from your comments you are as 'spry' as ever. Welcome back.:)

Fyi, black therapists aren't as creative as white therapists. You see, the name of the game in therapy is to get to your clients repressed "feelings."

I think Sarah has hit upon a novel way to do that. I bet field and some of his fans are making appointments right now.:)

Anonymous said...

Considering Negroes won't go to therapy, Sarah's therapy might entice some to try it.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:45, what are you talking about? UTS and RK are her regulars.

Desertflower said...

Thank you for the well wishes Anonymous. But we digress. Since this thread is about Abe Lincoln I don't want to hijack it into another topic, so sorry Mr. Field that it went a little off topic!

CAROLYN MOON said...

@Desertflower I'm glad to hear that the treatment was successful from a cancer survivor x2 to another.

Back on topic....
I wonder if President Obama has read the book featured by field re: Lincoln's complexities. He so loves and respects this historical figure. Even uses him as a rationale for a cabinet/staff that is 80% allegedly "rivals". I tend to believe that he shares quite a few conservative viewpoints. Remember he was reared by conservative grandparents and a grandmother whom he loved who spoke disparaging of black men. I think the President said he would grimace at her remarks.

President Lincoln, actually was between a rock and a hard place. There have been many books written about him and his bouts with depression and grief. If he could have save the union and pleased the south by upholding slavery...he would have! Now that's the uncomfortable truth. I can recognize him for his courage in making a difficult decision that went against his views about black people and their place or lot in life but all this adoration and revisionism begs the point!!!!

Anonymous said...

For Christ's sake folks. Whatever the reason-and we'll never know-Abe Lincoln freed the slaves and here we are today. I am grateful that we were freed, whatever the circumstances, reasons, etc.

Black folks need to get a grip and stop whining like a bunch of ingrates and count our blessings. Will this crying EVER STOP?

Lincoln was a GREAT PRESIDENT, and Obama SHOULD UPHOLD Lincoln as the greatest because it was under Lincoln's admininstration that the slaves were freed. End of story.

Why not dissect Obama and what he is doing for Blacks NOW? That's a hell of a lot more important that centuries ago. WTF?

So can we come back to the 'present'--the 'NOW' and maybe even consider "therapy", which Blacks need very badly?

Anonymous said...

Desertflower, is that a nurses cap on your head?

Anonymous said...

"Desertflower, is that a nurses cap on your head?"

Somebody must be blind?

Anonymous said...

"Somebody must be blind?"

Not quite, but I am getting there. I guess it is not a nurses cap? Well, is that you wearing those cool underwater goggles?

Anonymous said...

Nah, they they look more like biker chick shades.

Anonymous said...

Field, "Anyway, A-merry-ca can't deal with uncomfortable truths right now, we have too much on our plate. Besides, we are trying to move beyond this little issue of race. Trying. I bet if "honest Abe" was here he would know what to do."

After seeing how Blacks behave in American movie theatres, I am sure he would express regret NOT shipping them out of America.

field negro said...

"Mr. Field, my brother. Pleeeze don't turn me in. If you were to do that, I would have race to go to. Have a little compassion.

"Love and protect your brother," sayeth the Lord."

Don't worry, I am sure white folks will find something in the house for you to do.You don't need a race. Or, you could become a preacher, you seem to know your scriptures.

Desertflower, feel free to jack a thread here anytime you please. Folks do it all the time. It's not a problem. I love the fact that you checked that Anon. They were obviously embarrassed and confused, thus the ignorant comments that followed. Must be a wingnut with no life or companionship. This is typical.
They are a sad lot those wingnuts.

Improbable Joe, why should we consider the context of the time in which he lived? I hear that a lot from folks. (Especially when it comes to A-merry-can politicians and statesmen) Either he was an honorable man who believed in the equality of ALL human beings or he wasn't. That is not a principle that's debateable based on context or compromise.

"For Christ's sake folks. Whatever the reason-and we'll never know-Abe Lincoln freed the slaves and here we are today. I am grateful that we were freed, whatever the circumstances, reasons, etc.

Black folks need to get a grip and stop whining like a bunch of ingrates and count our blessings. Will this crying EVER STOP?"

OK, that was funny. :)

Anon. I don't know what is wrong with these Negroes. Instead of thanking the white man for freeeing them, they are on blogs bitching and moaning about their condition.

Do you believe the nerve of some of these Negroes?.....I swear I love blogging.

no_slappz said...

pilotX wrote:

@Field, Slappz will never answer my questions as they will prove it is wrong about sooooo much.

Here's your answer.

Everyone (every male) applying to college in the years that college provided a draft deferment went to college, in part, to avoid the draft.

This fact should be obvious, even to you. People who wanted to enlist, well, they enlisted.

But as the war kept grinding along, the requirements for maintaining deferments went up. At first enrolling in college was enough for a deferment. Then a student had to be married. Finally, a student had to be married and have a child.

When the Draft Lottery was instituted in 1969, a new set of dynamics for avoiding the draft arose. But basically if your draft lottery number was low enough, you were headed to the Army. Unless you were in college, married and the father of a child.

Clinton, by the way, was a bona fide Draft Dodger. Not a draft avoider or evader, but an outright draft dodger. Bush may have had a terrible service record, but the National Guard was/is the military and he was in it.

Anonymous said...

Lincoln embarrasses his current Party roster. He was quite literate, learned from his mistakes, and was principled without being horribly judgmental. He disagreed vehemently with the intransigent South...but did not set up policy...'If the Ds want it, we must fight it'.

It wasn't so long ago...that the best choice for white folk was to be a slave in one of 'those' countries. You could marry, own property, sign legal documents, live three times longer than the folks back home...

Lincoln did what we hoped Obama would do...grow in office. Lincoln picked competent people like Grant and Sherman. Although not 'one of us'(Villager Society) they successfully prosecuted a war. Must have rankled the Southern aristocracy to have their well-bred scions be beaten by a Reality-based commoner.

DesertFlower...congrats on remission!!!! Hope you remain so!!!


Mold

no_slappz said...

field, you wrote:

know that it has been almost a month since Lincoln's birthday, but it seems that, once again, A-merry-ca is struggling with some uncomfortable truths about one of her icons.

Really? Where did you get this baseless tidbit? Lincoln's Birthday is a holiday. That's what it means to everyone today. Other than acknowledging a few simple facts about Lincoln being the president who waged the Civil War and freed the slaves, nothing about him or his life is discussed by whites.

However, it's becoming clear that some blacks want to re-interpret Lincoln, his presidency and the Civil War era. As if it matters.

Activities like revising the history of Lincoln seem to go along with the great efforts put into understanding why 210 years after Haiti became independent, it is a cesspool. There's a similar effort put into assigning blame for the slaughter in Rwanda to Belgians who were nowhere near the place when 800,000 people were hacked to death.

Meanwhile, there's no history of Africa covering the centuries before whites ventured in because no one in Africa could read or write. However, that hasn't stopped some current nitwits from writing fiction about the tribal past of Africa.

Really. Whites do not spend time at Lincoln rallies or holding book club meetings to discuss every aspect of Lincoln and his presidency. The Civil War was fought and the slaves were freed. What else matters?

Anonymous said...

Slappy, I noticed you forgot to mention heroic ManDumpling, Cheney, Perle...I'll stop there...Field has a character limit and the list is soooo very long.
Clinton never 'dodged' the Draft. It is a fake issue...one waved around like so much McCarthy blank paper of lists of eveel Commnists.
As far as bush's service, I'll note that you never did. Going away for a year without Leave...is UCMJ territory. Google it. Odd that bush was not sent to the infantry like others who found it too hard to be in the Champagne Squad.
Served? Like McCain (offspring of two admirals)? Maybe you don't know about 'ring-knockers'...but the officer who dealt with McCain fairly...would have ended their career. And his jacket shows this. bush...let's just say his rabbi is very highly placed.

Back to Lincoln. As a man of his time, he could not accept Africans as his equal. But, he could not deny the jerkhole treatment of humans in the South. Both genders were assaulted with astounding violence. The slavers spoke of their gentle had with 'property'...yet anthropological evidence has shown that the planters lie. They overworked children to a degree offensive even for that time. Lincoln lived near slaveholders. He was keenly attuned to the Natural World. He would have seen the slaveowner's 'polygamy' society with the females he 'owned'. The casual and abrupt violence done to the male slaves belied the claim of 'valuable merchandise'...oh...they beat horses to death at the time...even though a horse was expensive.
Lincoln merely let us see what we already knew...slaveowners were poos and should be eradicated for the health of the country. Lincoln wanted the process to be gradual and gentle. And the slaveowners hated him for this...much like the rich hated FDR for saving them from a Socialist Revolution.

Mold

Mack Lyons said...

"Anon. I don't know what is wrong with these Negroes. Instead of thanking the white man for freeeing them, they are on blogs bitching and moaning about their condition."

Reminding white Americans of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and all the other indignities brought upon black Americans is called "being stuck in the past".

Bringing attention to current acts of discrimination, racially-driven malice and general ill-will towards blacks is called "bitching", "whining", "moaning" and "complaining".

I do understand that the vast majority of America is not comfortable with being reminded of how cold-hearted and bastard-like they can be, so they'd rather pretend that racial discrimination died after Lincoln "freed the slaves". Or after Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. made his "I have a dream" speech. Or after Barack Obama was elected president. Post-racial society this is not.

The resident toms (and I hate to call them by that name, but that's exactly what these guys are) hold the position that blacks should "move forward" by not reminding white Americans of their past collective treachery toward blacks and relegate that part of history in the same dank, dark, seldom-visited closet where the Irish, Italians and Jews have tossed their own run-ins with white American treachery into.

Black America is "focused" on the past for the same reason European Jews hold the phrase "never again" near and dear to their hearts. Because those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. If white America is allowed to conveniently forget certain "uncomfortable" parts of their past, you best believe they'll end up repeating that portion all over again.

"After seeing how Blacks behave in American movie theatres, I am sure he would express regret NOT shipping them out of America."

Too bad you'll end up on the same boat as those folk. Mass deportations are usually involuntary things, even if you're so far inside the master's house, you're literally fighting him for extra cover every night.

Mack Lyons said...

"Clinton, by the way, was a bona fide Draft Dodger. Not a draft avoider or evader, but an outright draft dodger. Bush may have had a terrible service record, but the National Guard was/is the military and he was in it."

The following comes courtesy of The Boston Globe, circa Sept. 2004. Apparently, Bush's service record was more than "terrible". It was largely nonexistent:

-------------------------
In February, when the White House made public hundreds of pages of President Bush's military records, White House officials repeatedly insisted that the records prove that Bush fulfilled his military commitment in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.

But Bush fell well short of meeting his military obligation, a Globe reexamination of the records shows: Twice during his Guard service -- first when he joined in May 1968, and again before he transferred out of his unit in mid-1973 to attend Harvard Business School -- Bush signed documents pledging to meet training commitments or face a punitive call-up to active duty.

He didn't meet the commitments, or face the punishment, the records show. The 1973 document has been overlooked in news media accounts. The 1968 document has received scant notice.

On July 30, 1973, shortly before he moved from Houston to Cambridge, Bush signed a document that declared, ''It is my responsibility to locate and be assigned to another Reserve forces unit or mobilization augmentation position. If I fail to do so, I am subject to involuntary order to active duty for up to 24 months. . . " Under Guard regulations, Bush had 60 days to locate a new unit.

But Bush never signed up with a Boston-area unit. In 1999, Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett told the Washington Post that Bush finished his six-year commitment at a Boston area Air Force Reserve unit after he left Houston. Not so, Bartlett now concedes. ''I must have misspoke," Bartlett, who is now the White House communications director, said in a recent interview.

And early in his Guard service, on May 27, 1968, Bush signed a ''statement of understanding" pledging to achieve ''satisfactory participation" that included attendance at 24 days of annual weekend duty -- usually involving two weekend days each month -- and 15 days of annual active duty. ''I understand that I may be ordered to active duty for a period not to exceed 24 months for unsatisfactory participation," the statement reads.

Yet Bush, a fighter-interceptor pilot, performed no service for one six-month period in 1972 and for another period of almost three months in 1973, the records show.

Anonymous said...

Slappy, must be Haiti was in a political vacuum where they were not treated differently from other nations.
Rwanda was rise of the wingnuts. Rwandan ManDumpling was on the AM and told them the literate folk was stealerating their gawdJuices. Rwandan Beck was saying all those Others (Liberals/Progressives) were conspiring to bring in Science-based curricula. Golly gee, and you wonder why I want stoopids to never be in power.

Mold

Mack Lyons said...

The reexamination of Bush's records by the Globe, along with interviews with military specialists who have reviewed regulations from that era, show that Bush's attendance at required training drills was so irregular that his superiors could have disciplined him or ordered him to active duty in 1972, 1973, or 1974. But they did neither. In fact, Bush's unit certified in late 1973 that his service had been ''satisfactory" -- just four months after Bush's commanding officer wrote that Bush had not been seen at his unit for the previous 12 months.

Bartlett, in a statement to the Globe last night, sidestepped questions about Bush's record. In the statement, Bartlett asserted again that Bush would not have been honorably discharged if he had not ''met all his requirements." In a follow-up e-mail, Bartlett declared: ''And if he hadn't met his requirements you point to, they would have called him up for active duty for up to two years."

That assertion by the White House spokesman infuriates retired Army Colonel Gerald A. Lechliter, one of a number of retired military officers who have studied Bush's records and old National Guard regulations, and reached different conclusions.

''He broke his contract with the United States government -- without any adverse consequences. And the Texas Air National Guard was complicit in allowing this to happen," Lechliter said in an interview yesterday. ''He was a pilot. It cost the government a million dollars to train him to fly. So he should have been held to an even higher standard."

Even retired Lieutenant Colonel Albert C. Lloyd Jr., a former Texas Air National Guard personnel chief who vouched for Bush at the White House's request in February, agreed that Bush walked away from his obligation to join a reserve unit in the Boston area when he moved to Cambridge in September 1973. By not joining a unit in Massachusetts, Lloyd said in an interview last month, Bush ''took a chance that he could be called up for active duty. But the war was winding down, and he probably knew that the Air Force was not enforcing the penalty."

But Lloyd said that singling out Bush for criticism is unfair. ''There were hundreds of guys like him who did the same thing," he said.

Lawrence J. Korb, an assistant secretary of defense for manpower and reserve affairs in the Reagan administration, said after studying many of the documents that it is clear to him that Bush ''gamed the system." And he agreed with Lloyd that Bush was not alone in doing so. ''If I cheat on my income tax and don't get caught, I'm still cheating on my income tax," Korb said.

After his own review, Korb said Bush could have been ordered to active duty for missing more than 10 percent of his required drills in any given year. Bush, according to the records, fell shy of that obligation in two successive fiscal years.

Korb said Bush also made a commitment to complete his six-year obligation when he moved to Cambridge, a transfer the Guard often allowed to accommodate Guardsmen who had to move elsewhere. ''He had a responsibility to find a unit in Boston and attend drills," said Korb, who is now affiliated with a liberal Washington think tank. ''I see no evidence or indication in the documents that he was given permission to forgo training before the end of his obligation. If he signed that document, he should have fulfilled his obligation."

The documents Bush signed only add to evidence that the future president -- then the son of Houston's congressman -- received favorable treatment when he joined the Guard after graduating from Yale in 1968. Ben Barnes, who was speaker of the Texas House of Representatives in 1968, said in a deposition in 2000 that he placed a call to get young Bush a coveted slot in the Guard at the request of a Bush family friend.

Mack Lyons said...

Bush was given an automatic commission as a second lieutenant, and dispatched to flight school in Georgia for 13 months. In June 1970, after five additional months of specialized training in F-102 fighter-interceptor, Bush began what should have been a four-year assignment with the 111th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron.

In May 1972, Bush was given permission to move to Alabama temporarily to work on a US Senate campaign, with the provision that he do equivalent training with a unit in Montgomery. But Bush's service records do not show him logging any service in Alabama until October of that year.

And even that service is in doubt. Since the Globe first reported Bush's spotty attendance record in May 2000, no one has come forward with any credible recollection of having witnessed Bush performing guard service in Alabama or after he returned to Houston in 1973. While Bush was in Alabama, he was removed from flight status for failing to take his annual flight physical in July 1972. On May 1, 1973, Bush's superior officers wrote that they could not complete his annual performance review because he had not been observed at the Houston base during the prior 12 months.

Although the records of Bush's service in 1973 are contradictory, some of them suggest that he did a flurry of drills in 1973 in Houston -- a weekend in April and then 38 days of training crammed into May, June, and July. But Lechliter, the retired colonel, concluded after reviewing National Guard regulations that Bush should not have received credit -- or pay -- for many of those days either. The regulations, Lechliter and others said, required that any scheduled drills that Bush missed be made up either within 15 days before or 30 days after the date of the drill.

Lechliter said the records push him to conclude that Bush had little interest in fulfilling his obligation, and his superiors preferred to look the other way. Others agree. ''It appears that no one wanted to hold him accountable," said retired Major General Paul A. Weaver Jr., who retired in 2002 as the Pentagon's director of the Air National Guard.

boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/09/08/bush_fell_short_on_duty_at_guard/

Pardon the wall-of-text, but I really don't trust Slapstick to actually follow up on a link like this.

no_slappz said...

field,

With respect to Fanon, I doubt you can discuss his work rationally. However, you've created the impression that you believe his "lumpenproletariat" should engage in the violent overthrow of the US. If that's the case, then you really have zero understanding of Fanon the screwball.

Clearly, in Wretched, it was plain as day that he had absolutely NO grasp of Islam and its teachings. Or maybe he did, and he believed in the words of the Koran.

What's amusing, sadly, is how he rambles on about the impact of colonialism on the minds of those in colonized nations without showing a hint of understanding how Islam spreads.

And he seems to have no objection to the fact that in the Islamic world, women are slaves. But I attribute his acceptance of female enslavement to the same principles by which he tried to explain the mind of an oppressed person in a colonized nation.

Meanwhile, if you share Fanon's belief that violent revolution is the solution to the problems of the poor in the US, then you are at odds with the Constitution you are sworn to uphold.

If you were just a gasbag with an opinion, it wouldn't matter. But you appear to be an employee of the government system that you want destroyed.

Mack Lyons said...

"Meanwhile, there's no history of Africa covering the centuries before whites ventured in because no one in Africa could read or write. However, that hasn't stopped some current nitwits from writing fiction about the tribal past of Africa."

Because as we all know, nothing happened or existed in Africa until white Europeans benevolently interjected themselves into those societies.

I wonder if you would feel the same way about Egyptians if they didn't have the hieroglyphics, vaults full of ornate valuables and the well-known pyramids that white archeologists literally break their own necks deciphering and pondering over. Then again, they're mostly Arab-descended, so that's gotta count as a positive (unless you don't like "terrorists"), amirite?

no_slappz said...

mack lyons,

The coverage of Bush's service is meaningless. No one has defended his record. And like Marion Barry, he was elected by the voters. Just as Clinton was.

And yes, Clinton was a draft dodger. A true draft dodger. But none of those who avoided, evaded, or dodged wrote the rule-book for examptions or deferments. They simply worked with the rules at hand. Clinton, however, cheated.

He lied to his draft liaison officer and his lie got him out. As for Cheney, well, he got a few deferments, legitimately, and, as is well known, he, in fact, does have heart problems.

Are you amazed that people exploit exceptions, exemptions or any other opportunity offered to them? When you file your taxes do you decide NOT to take certain exemptions to which the law entitles you?

If Clinton had been drafted, he most likely would have remained out of harm's way. That's just a simple fact reflecting the odds at the time. Serving in Korea or W Germany was more likely.

no_slappz said...

mack lyons, you wrote:

Because as we all know, nothing happened or existed in Africa until white Europeans benevolently interjected themselves into those societies.

There's that black sensibility at work. I make a statement of fact, and you respond with some meaningless sarcasm.

The only reason there is any plausible written history of pre-white Africa is due to the fact that after whites arrived in Africa, they examined the available artifacts and developed some ideas of what those primitive people were up to.

I wonder if you would feel the same way about Egyptians if they didn't have the hieroglyphics,

You obviously know nothing about "Egyptians". The Rosetta Stone was unearthed around 1800 in Egypt. However, no one in Egypt knew what was written on it. That should let you know that once again, Islam wiped out a society's connection to its past.

The Rosetta Stone was found by the French and English, who got a little touchy over which of the two should take it. Anyway, it took a Frenchman a few years to crack the language of the Stone. Now the Rosetta Stone is in the British Museum.

Do you get it? The Eygptians knew nothing of their past because the link to the past was cut by the arrival and dominance of Islam, which can tolerate nothing but itself. That is why North Africans speak Arabic. Anyway, it has taken the efforts of white Europeans to uncover the archeological treasures of that region. The locals are morons.

vaults full of ornate valuables and the well-known pyramids that white archeologists literally break their own necks deciphering and pondering over.

There has been no invasion of the inner chambers of the Pyramids. But yes, as you have acknowledged, white archeologists have devoted themselves to cracking the codes of long-gone civilizations.

Then again, they're mostly Arab-descended, so that's gotta count as a positive (unless you don't like "terrorists"), amirite?

Arab-descended? Guess again. They're mainly British. You seem oblivious to the fact that Islam cannot tolerate any religion, political doctrine or military greater than itself. Islam therefore destroys the past that is of no use to it.

Meanwhile, you ought to visit museums with exhibits stocked with Egyptian artifacts. If the Egyptians themselves were competent archeologists, most of the artifacts would be in Cairo. However, a lot of the good stuff is the property of many other nations.

California Girl said...

I'm less inclined to agree we "can't handle the truth" as the history of Lincoln and his complex attitudes towards race,slavery, etc have been brought to light and discussed in depth for quite a while. Granted, we weren't and probably aren't taught this in school but, what else is new? We know the history books are full of mistakes, erroneous information & blatant overviews of historic events that barely skim the surface.

Rather than hold Lincoln up as the ultimate icon, the greatest President (which I believe he still is), why not see him as a person of his time who struggled to make changes everyone could live with? It certainly makes him more human.

Anonymous said...

CA Girl, I think why we love Lincoln so much is that he transcended the mundane of the time. That he was murdered by a wingnut coward was Greek Tragedy. An enormous Hero laid low by the basest.
Lincoln did try to accommodate the rabid Southerners...but they wanted everything their way and would be sand in the gears until others gave in. The Founding Fathers predicted the failure of slavery...and hoped it could be done without bloodshed. Southerners were not willing to give up the 'free labour' and 'free -ahem-'...and if not for Lincoln...we might have no whites left in the South. Revolutions can be merciless...French, English, and Russian aristocrats only survived...if they were out of the country.
Lincoln prevented this. He also was generous to the South...when his advisers pushed for eliminating the idiocy of Southern Stoopid. Lincoln saw the human side and sought reconciliation.

Mold

Anonymous said...

Slappy, bush was appointed...despite the voters obviously and massively voting for Gore.
Keep beleeverating Clinton was a Draft dodger, it fits your needs. All the DFHs were dodging the Draft while heroic ManDumplings were??? Cheney' cardiac issues surfaced well after his Draft Dodging. Decades. He heroically volunteered others to do his service...five times. Clinton did this...like...zero times. And you are being deceitful in claiming Clinton would have been sent to Germany or other 'safe' locales. Most people of Clinton's socioeconomic status went to Nam...which he knew, being smart and all. You could look up demographics on this...or you could look at the current bushWar M&M...seems not much has changed.
Islam? Or Fundie Wingnut? You seem to 'forget' that while your ancestors were roasting children to eat...the Muslims were some of the most enlightened people on the planet. Only when their wingnut Fundies took over did the Empire crumble. But, they could take heart in knowing that teachers were not paid more than Goobers, women knew their ordained-by-gawd place, homos stayed in the pulpit, and taxes were low..low...low. History tends to repeat.

Mold

Sarge said...

When you start civil war reenacting you start to find out information that is readily available, but at best, if brought to other people's attention gets a "yes, but..."

Mencken said it best, that when he became "beatified" they took away any chance to actually know him, and I would add, probably just as well for the sake of the American myth. There has been much historical "rehabilitation" of #16.

He was a very shrewd, pragmatic corperatist and statist, a law breaker, and de facto dictator.

Most people are unaware that several states entered the union with the priviso that they could leave at will, Vermont, Rhode Island, Virginia, and Texas among them.
During the Mexican War several states objected to the levies or troops and money the federal gov't was laying on them (war was very unpopular) and a young congressman whose colleagues called him "Old Spotty" advised them to withdraw from the union as it was their right to do. Yep, "Old Spotty" = Lincoln. And yet, come late 1850s...

If you read his personal interviews with Charles Russel among others you get a very different idea of the reasons for thee war, and the black man was never more than an emotional hook for both sides until the economic aspect of his work was considered.

A lot of folks today figure that if the war hadn't been won, he hadn't been assasinated, his family circumstance hadn't been problematic, and that the southern planter class hadn't actually gotten what they wanted out of the war, anyway, he would probably be ranked about with Bush II.

Anonymous said...

mold, I noticed you forgot to mention heroic Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr,Howard Dean,Joe Biden...I'll stop there...Field has a character limit and the list is soooo very long.

"when his advisers pushed for eliminating the idiocy of Southern Stoopid"

If only the L man would have listen to his advisers.There would be fewer Democrats in this country today......

South Park Conservatives said...

You seem to 'forget' that while your ancestors were roasting children to eat...the Muslims were some of the most enlightened people on the planet.


Making stuff up again,mold? Muslims are nothing more than cultist,with allah being their Jim Jones.

South Park Conservatives said...

Why do we need "Honest Abe",when we have the messiah in the house?

The media told us Obama was going to end white guilt,bring us into the "new world".

Instead, we got the most polarizing president in the history of America.

Anonymous said...

SPC, nope.
Don't confuse Muslim/Christian with Fundie wingnut...or christian/muslim. You are screaming that all Muslims are the ones who do eveel...pretty much like claiming all Christians are polygamous child molesting welfare cheats (where is Welfare Queen? Jeffs is in prison). Or that all Christians enjoy molesting little boys, being transferred to avoid prosecution/find new victims, and use the widows and orphans fund to bail out the perps. Plus, the Pope is directly connected to the cover-up of the heinous crimes. Rational people know that this is the conservative subset of the Catholic Church...not Christians.
Obama is only polarizing in that Heeyucsk, Goobers, Gomers and the pouting Addison Graves Wilsons of the US can't accept an AfAm citizen as their equal...much less the obviously superior being he is.
Keep beleeverating...

Mold

field negro said...

Sloppy, you have zero credibility with the issue of Fanon and everything else you post about. You have exposed yourself as a liar and a fraud and you know nothing about anything of which you speak. Clearly you take time and Google these subjects and come back days later to debate them. If you really knew anything about these subjects you would answer the questions when I ask them, but you don't. Why? Because you need time to do your research. Everyone can do that, and if you admitted to doing it we would not have a problem with you. But, unlike most other people, you PRETEND to know what you are saying when clearly you do not.

I refuse to even acknowledge your comments on anything I post about anymore. From now on I will do like others here and scroll past your self-seeking delusional ramblings.

Anonymous said...

Sarge, nice piece of spin. You forgot to mention some of those 'states' were independent before they entered the US. You neglected of offer why and how they cut the deal to be part of the US.
It was about slavery, no matter how much it pains the apologists to admit the deaths and destruction were all sourced in the South wanting to keep humans as property. Whether because it meant the planter class would have to work, that planters would no longer have human pets, or the local wites could assault AfAm citizens without legal consequence.
You gave no framework for the states wanting out. What was public opinion on the Mexican War? What did Lincoln himself write about our part? Which states? Why was it so needful for them to leave?
Was the nickname like the ones bush impressed upon his hapless aides? Because of an inability to recall the names of those he had worked with for years? Was it from his complexion?
As far as shrewd...yes. He did some rather nice briefs for railroads. Corporatist? Recall that the railroads and large firms brought huge increases in the living standards of the lower classes. This was when the evil of corporations was new in the US. Railroads were the Silicon Valley/Rte 128 of their day. Statist.?
Law-breaker? Damn Yankee won't give find Southern 'men' their just due..access to the backs of Africans.
Dictator? The South loves to repeat this...hoping that people are stoopid enough to beleeverate it. A cursory review of the activities of the time show no such thing. Except, the South really, really wants others to see him as they do. Hmmm...bully beats on small kids, makes it 'legal', dares us to stop him...but he'll blow up the US if we do, finally starts the fight, gets their -ahem- handed to them despite all their bluster about heroism and martial prowess, and then lies about losing a fight they began.

Mold

Anonymous said...

Anon. some people called the "Drop Squad" keep calling for you. What should I tell them?

there you go, when the truth hits and you can't face it ridicule the truthteller, yeah, if I am a TOM then what does it make you... ahh never mind. If a man can't think on his own and is a sheeple...hes not a man hes a hyprocrite that everyone except other hypocrites despises. maybe thats why folks have to always be angry and always fighting, cause they dont understand what earning respect entails. You can never be something you are not no matter how loud you shout it.

no_slappz said...

mold, you wrote:

Slappy, bush was appointed...despite the voters obviously and massively voting for Gore.Keep beleeverating Clinton was a Draft dodger, it fits your needs.

Facts are facts. He lied to his liaison officer, claiming he was in school, when, in fact, he was not. Clinton was in England at the time and his liaison officer trusted him. Had his lie been uncovered on the spot, he would have been inducted in 1971 at the earliest, but more likely in 1972. At that point, there's no chance he would have been sent to Vietnam. Even less likely is the chance he would have been assigned to a combat unit. Maybe it's news to you, but the Army gives a lot of tests and the results have a lot to do with what a soldier's role. Clinton would have gotten top scores on most tests and may well have landed in any number of roles that involved no combat -- like Al Gore, Army journalist.

Cheney' cardiac issues surfaced well after his Draft Dodging.

A person obtaining legal draft deferments is not a draft dodger. A person who lies to his draft liaison officer is a draft dodger

Decades. He heroically volunteered others to do his service...five times.

Legal, lawful deferments that he had no hand in creating or authorizing.

Clinton did this...like...zero times. And you are being deceitful in claiming Clinton would have been sent to Germany or other 'safe' locales.

Most people of Clinton's socioeconomic status went to Nam...which he knew, being smart and all. You could look up demographics on this...


During the Vietnam Era the number of people who served in the US military was 10 million. Of the 10 million, 3 million served in Vietnam. Of the 3 million, 58,000 were killed and about 250,000 were wounded. Thus, 7 million -- 70% of those who served in those years -- did NOT go to Vietnam.

Odds are that Clinton, especially because of the most likely timing of his induction -- 1972 -- would have had an uneventful period of military service. Ground patrols in Vietnam had almost stopped by the beginning of 1972, and they did stop in the middle of that year.

Islam? Or Fundie Wingnut? You seem to 'forget' that while your ancestors were roasting children to eat...the Muslims were some of the most enlightened people on the planet.

No. Not really. However, they were regularly conquering small pockets of enlightened people who were responsible for the examples of enlightenment. The muslims then claimed the work of the conquered for themselves. Here's a tidbit for you. Much of the enlightenment was the work of Jews whose communities were conquered by muslims.

In any case, the last significant intellectual advance credited to muslims is the concept of the number "zero". That occurred in the year 1,000. After that, intellectual advancement came to a dead stop. Should this reality surprise anyone when the goal of Islam is to return the world to the 7th century?

Have you ever wondered why Islamic nations invent nothing? Manufacture nothing? Create no art? Create no literature? They are mental wastelands because the societies are pre-occupied with the lunacy of Islam.

Only when their wingnut Fundies took over did the Empire crumble.

The Ottoman Empire crumbled from within. Just like the tyrannical regimes falling in the last couple of months.

And in Islam, women are still slaves.

Anonymous said...

Field, "Don't worry, I am sure white folks will find something in the house for you to do.You don't need a race. Or, you could become a preacher, you seem to know your scriptures."

OMG. I can't believe that you are trying to drive me out of the race of slaves. That's so insulting.

I see you recognize my knowledge of scriptures. Yes, I could have written the bible myself. Actually in a past lifetime, I might have.

You may call me Just call me, "Divine Anon." Mellaneous, eat your heart out.

no_slappz said...

field, you wrote:

Sloppy, you have zero credibility with the issue of Fanon and everything else you post about.

Believe whatever you want. Your imagination has no impact on the facts.

You have exposed yourself as a liar and a fraud and you know nothing about anything of which you speak.

Yeah. Sure. Typical worried response from someone who just realized that Fanon is, in fact, a screwball, while, at the same time, feeling too embarrassed to admit it's true after having presented Fanon as the Lincoln of his time.

Clearly you take time and Google these subjects and come back days later to debate them. If you really knew anything about these subjects you would answer the questions when I ask them, but you don't. Why?

Why? Because I was out all day yesterday and did not see your challenge until last night.

I refuse to even acknowledge your comments on anything I post about anymore. From now on I will do like others here and scroll past your self-seeking delusional ramblings.

Good for you. It's probably a good idea for you to stay away from Fanon and his calls for violent revolution. Supporting a violent overthrow of the US government is a bad position for a government employee to take. It won't look good on your resume.

Meanwhile, in the history of revolutions occurring in the last two centuries, it appears that revolutions in white countries has led to the spread of democracy, capitalism, fairness, prosperity and vast improvements in civil society.

In the cases of some changes forced on a few nations -- Germany, Japan, South Korea and embraced by Israel, the results have been superb and beyond our expectations.

But revolutions in black nations have led to more poverty, more oppressive leadership and no gains in prosperity. Nice work. Let Haiti be your guide.

Now we are witnessing a string is revolutions in Islamic nations. What will they bring?

If the US or other democratic nations do nothing, the revolutions will bring forth, at best, some hybrid democracy that largely oppresses women and restricts rights on non-muslims. We can live with that as long as these new regimes are more functional than Hamas in Gaza. But there is no doubt that Iran, the Muslim Brotherhood, al qaeda and every other fundamentalist group will get its fingers into these pies, and not for the betterment of the people, the nations or the world.

Gaza, for example, is a welfare nation that must have external support to pay its daily bills. Much of that support comes from Israel, by the way.

Muslims have a perverse genius for doing everything the worst possible way.

Anonymous said...

Slappy, Cheney dodged the Draft FIVE times. At least four were questionable. Clinton didn't. Ummm...England has more than a few schools. Wasn't Clinton attending one of those? Clinton made it clear he was considering Draft Dodging. Well, Duh. Unlike you, Clinton could discern his risks. Your puerile attempt at 'analysis' shows a discernible mathematical illiteracy. Average and median still escape you. As do other, basic, statistical terms.
Islam fell pretty much when the Fundie wingnuts took control. Matter of historical record.
You must not live in NYC. Even a short bus would take you to dozens of shops that offer the plethora of goods made in Muslim-majority lands. Strange that one who claims to dwell in NYC is so unaware of the offerings of the Muslim World. It is almost as if you are actually living in Mom's basement in a lily-white suburb and soil yourself when you see one with skin that has been exposed to the sun. Art and literature are common to Muslim lands...and more than a few works are in English. Which is known to the literati. You sound like a one of the cheerleaders for a high school...telling us the opposing team eats babies and the girls are ugly and the team is all gay and they all not as good as us.
Before repeating such blatant ignorance of everything...you should have done your usual cursory search. Art and Literature alone would have told you the FOX Points fer The Ignorant Rubes was bullpoo. Heck, even a trip through Al Jazeera or BBC would have shown the 'brownies is dumber n' us' to be bullpoo.

Mold

Anonymous said...

MackLying-"The resident toms (and I hate to call them by that name, but that's exactly what these guys are) hold the position that blacks should "move forward" by not reminding white Americans of their past collective treachery toward blacks and relegate that part of history in the same dank, dark, seldom-visited closet where the Irish, Italians and Jews have tossed their own run-ins with white American treachery...."

No, you like calling Blacks who disagree with you "uncle toms." That is your only defense against your 'concept' of being a Negro and your theory of what it's like to be White. Both are wrong. Both are in the toilet. Flush the toilet, Mack--and start anew without prejudice.

Anonymous said...

Slappy, being stoopid about Gaza? You really should read more than newsletters from mental defectives. Just because you thinkerate they are smart...only shows your personal limitations on knowledge.
Oh, before I listen to the Kagans and their ilk, I'll most certainly listen to Hamas. Hamas is far more honest, trustworthy, and democratic. It is also not what you pretenderate it to be.

Mold

Anonymous said...

Field, "You have exposed yourself as a liar and a fraud and you know nothing about anything of which you speak."

Slappz, "Yeah. Sure. Typical worried response from someone who just realized that Fanon is, in fact, a screwball, while, at the same time, feeling too embarrassed to admit it's true after having presented Fanon as the Lincoln of his time."

Good response, slappz. FYI: you are getting to him and he is getting frustrated and flustered. He has trouble with inconvenient truths.

Captain Amerikkka said...

Mack Lyons: "Yet Bush, a fighter-interceptor pilot, performed no service for one six-month period in 1972 and for another period of almost three months in 1973, the records show."

The Boston Globe hit piece was proven long ago to be a fabrication of the John Kerry campaign's house newspaper. Despite extraordinary document searches will the full cooperation of Bush, no incriminating evidence was ever found. Dan Rather's desperate attempt to use forged documents would not have been necessary if there had been anything to this story.

You lose Mack. Try again.

field negro said...

"You can never be something you are not no matter how loud you shout it."

I know Anon. Once a house Negro always a house Negro. :)

Anonymous said...

mold said...
I'll most certainly listen to Hamas. Hamas is far more honest, trustworthy, and democratic.



Talk about a wingnut.

no_slappz said...

mold, you wrote:

Slappy, Cheney dodged the Draft FIVE times. At least four were questionable.

Cheney received legitimate draft deferments. It's that simple. You or other nitwits might spew saliva about the generosity of draft board, but the rules were well known and Cheney was within bounds. Look, he, like Clinton, would have been an unlikely candidate for a combat unit, so in the long run, he would have been better off going in. Frankly, both Clinton and Cheney could have taken a shot at ROTC or Officers Candidate School.

Clinton didn't. Ummm...England has more than a few schools. Wasn't Clinton attending one of those?

That's the point. He was attending for a while, then he took a semester off. However, his draft deferment was contingent on being in school. The act of taking off from school was an event that would have led to automatic induction if his draft liaison officer had known. But Clinton lied to his liaison officer.

That's how it worked then. As I said, in 1972, Clinton would have had an uneventful military experience.

Unlike you, Clinton could discern his risks. Your puerile attempt at 'analysis' shows a discernible mathematical illiteracy. Average and median still escape you. As do other, basic, statistical terms.

Really? So tell me what happened to inductees entering the Army in 1972 who got top scores on the Armed Forces Qualification Tests? And what was the experience of people who took a shot at OCS?

What was the experience of people who avoided the Army by enlisting in the Navy or the Air Force? Or those who joined the reserves?

no_slappz said...

mold, you wrote:

Islam fell pretty much when the Fundie wingnuts took control.

Every Islamic nation is a place of ignorance and backwardness. The dominance of Islam ensures this obvious fact. "Matter of historical record."

You must not live in NYC. Even a short bus would take you to dozens of shops that offer the plethora of goods made in Muslim-majority lands.

My neighborhood is about 4 blocks from a large Pakistani community -- about 50,000 -- and the nearby main street (Coney Island Avenue) is lined with Pakistani businesses. The ONLY products that come from Pakistan are clothes. The burkas and other clothing items for women, the man-dresses for the guys, and there are jewelry stores selling what is purported to be gold.

Aside from clothes, there are messy, unkempt food stores selling large bags of rice and other goods from Pakistan. There are a couple of cell phone stores, and, as you well know, there are no Pakistani cell phone makers. There are also sweet shops and a few middle eastern restaurants, selling all the middle eastern standards.

What products do you imagine are made in Pakistan and exported to the US?

There is another street with a considerable Islamic presence -- Atlantic Avenue -- also in Brooklyn. IN addition to the same offerings of clothes and food, there are stores that are largely devoted to promoting Islam. They sell lots of books -- Korans, Hadithas, and endless tracts that spew the wonders of Islam. They also sell incense, soaps, prayer mats and other religious items.

The FBI has arrested a number of muslims in both areas for their role in raising money for terrorist groups.

Anyway, once again, what are those products made in the middle east and exported to the US, aside from oil?

Strange that one who claims to dwell in NYC is so unaware of the offerings of the Muslim World.

What's strange is that you imagine people who have demonstrated zero creativity for 1,400 years enjoy commercial success.

Art and literature are common to Muslim lands...and more than a few works are in English.

Name a couple. Islam itself prohibits art appreciation because it is an affront to Allah and Muhammad. A few colorful mosques are not art. A few goofy poems exalting Allah are not literature.

There are NO Islamic writers in the faith who have written anything of consequence. Not one. None. And in Islam, women are slaves. Oh, it's true, middle eastern and north African rugs can be quite beautiful. But they are made by the enslaved muslim women -- today.

no_slappz said...

mold writes:

I'll most certainly listen to Hamas. Hamas is far more honest, trustworthy, and democratic.

Let's see. Hamas, in its constitution, has written that its goal is the destruction of Israel and to drive all Jews out of the region. So, yes, Hamas is honest about its only goal.

Trustworthy? Well, it's clear that a lot of money donated to Hamas was siphoned off and went to Paris. Anyway, if there's a single characteristic that is central to the Islamic way, it is corruption. Even you can figure that corruption is evidence of people who are untrustworthy.

The Islamic concept of lying is very simple. No muslim is expected to speak truthfully to an infidel -- you know, a non-muslim. In fact, lying and deception is encouraged in the Koran. I can cite the chapter and verse if you can't find it.

Anyway, I was richly entertained by Baghdad Bob during the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. It was terrifically entertaining the way he was describing the annihilation of US troops as they closed in on him. Each of these pathetic Islamic nations is its own land of Oz.

Democratic? Well, enough people in Gaza did vote Hamas into office, and since then, no surprise, the elected members of Hamas have succeeded in making life in Gaza worse and worse.

A few years ago they boomed on about the huge investments in the Gaza shoreline that were just around the corner. Well, the country is a bigger sewer today than it was in 2006. But that's Islamic leadership for you.

Here's something you should really come to grips with. Muslims are the worst business people on the planet. Of course it all goes back to Islam. So it's not exactly their individual faults.

The countries with oil wealth can paper over all their spectacular business blunders and fiascos with the non-stop gusher of oil money. If something goes bad, they just bury it in money, and after a while everything is forgotten.

That dopey Prince Alaweed, who claims he's a stock market genius... Nonsense. His investment record, like Obama's SAT scores, is a state secret. Why? The usual reason -- the facts are embarrassing.

If he were successful, the world would know. That's how it works in the land of investments.

maria said...

ns said:

"Democratic? Well, enough people in Gaza did vote Hamas into office, and since then, no surprise, the elected members of Hamas have succeeded in making life in Gaza worse and worse."

i love how you leave "facts" out that aren't convenient. the reason the conditions in gaza have deteriorated is due to the israel blockade of gaza, which the u.s. supports. i hope one result of the fall of mubarak will be less cooperation in suppressing all palestinians.

Fred said...

Keep up the good work, Field. I first read of the "other Lincoln" in James Cone’s Black Theology & Black Power (first published in 1969). I read this to my daughter, when she was in fifth grade. She couldn’t wrap her mind around these quotations, not because she’s not sharp, but because she’s already been brainwashed to believe one thing about honest Abe. Here’s President Lincoln on the Civil War:

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. (Cone 10)

Here’s Lincoln on black folk:

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races—that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. (Cone 10)

Yes, Lincoln was complex and yes, Lincoln was a product of his times: why can't we remember him that way? Keep up the good work, Field.

Anonymous said...

Cheney dodged the Draft FIVE times. The lie that bush served...was shown false. Rather was never busted on the facts...just that a single document was a plant...and seemed to be sourced in Oppo Research. You know...if one iota of data is suspect...one must throw out the Theory of Gravity. Literally thousands of pages of bush's jacket are missing. But, not to worry. What could go wrong if bush was pResident? Constitutional crisis from appointing the loser in the election to office? Economic meltdown? Placing thousands of bushmoles in Federal Service positions they would never meet minimum qualifications to even apply for?
Slappy, look up probability. Clinton's risk for front line approached 100%. Unlike Cheney or bush. Officer means remaining for years. Clinton may not have wanted to listen to any more stoopid Southern welfare recipients...and the mil was/is welfare. As far as top scores...I can show you the graves of those who were beyond 99th percentile...but weren't born bush or Draft Dodging Cheney.
Wow...listing local cheap shops is exactly the same as visiting those that have the items I described. Like reading newsletter written by neo-cons is exactly the same as books by Chomsky. Like Social Gospel asking for taxes to support the poor and hungry is exactly the same as the Catholic Church giving hidey-holes and multiple transfers to conservative child molesting priests.
Man-dress? Could you have at least taken time away from your self-worship of the Sarey Palin poster to Google the term for the clothing? Seems to me, having lived in evilbigcities, that one would learn from the contact...much as Yiddish and Italian terms have entered common usage.
FBI will arrest Fundies...unless they are wite and christian...then they wait until the bravely heroic wite Fundies kill people. How many of those cases against Muslims were dropped? How many bolstered the political stance of Commander Codpiece?
Umm...if you need to ask..the NYT, Voice, Post and shoppers all detailed Muslim Art and Literature...in English. In other languages, there is even more.
Oh...you like Sarey...you read 'them all. -snort-
Tell me again you live in NYC...then show you don't even get the paper...not even the Sunday. By the by...NYT Sunday is in DC, Boston, Norfolk, Chicago...so I wonder if you are living in Mom's trailer in Podunk.

Mold

Anonymous said...

Maria, thank you. Hamas was indeed chosen by the people. Must be they are brown or sumpin'

Mold

Anonymous said...

FBI will arrest Fundies...unless they are wite and christian...

mold


Just making shit up again,mold?

Please provide proof of this.

no_slappz said...

maria writes:

i love how you leave "facts" out that aren't convenient.

Like what? The Hamas constitution states that Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel and driving all Jews from the region. However, based on what appears to be your derangement, you think a nation that elects an organization with the single goal of destroying another nation and driving out its citizens is a nation deserving of respect and consideration and equal treatment, even though our own Constitution outlaws those ambitions.

the reason the conditions in gaza have deteriorated is due to the israel blockade of gaza, which the u.s. supports.

You have a serious chicken-vs-egg problem. Plus you have no idea what you're jabbering about. No nation in the world is willing to help the idiots in the Gaza strip for the simple reason that the idiots have placed themselves beyond the reach of rational governments.

Even the other irrational Islamic governments offer nothing to the dopes in Gaza.

You're blind on this issue. The Islamic world is incapable of getting out from under its own self-imposed, self-inflicted wounds.

Even the countries with oil wealth are a mess. I'm sure you would love to live in Saudi Arabia, which has now outlawed protesting. Of course, speaking out in any way has always been illegal for all women.

Where do you stand on the Islamic practice of female genital mutilation? Ya for it? Or agin it?

Why are all Islamic societies devoid of scientists and engineers? The idiot, mold, gibbers about muslim nonsense but cannot offer a single example of products exported from Islamic nations to the US, except for oil and some textiles.

There is no such thing as quality goods from Islamic countries. They are simply incapable of producing them.

Islamic countries manufacture no cars, computers, airplanes, trains, ships, etc. Nothing.

Rugs. Made by enslaved women. That's their big export.

Literature? Name a book and a writer. Okay Salman Rushdie, who spent years living under a death threat because Satanic Verses offended the screwballs. Did any Islamic leaders tell the issuers of the fatwa to drop their idiocy? No. It is what they do.

Art? In Islam art is blasphemy and blasphemy is a capital offense. Moreover, the punishment is carried out by ad hoc self-appointed executioners who regularly kill people on the street. Just a couple of days ago in Pakistan a man who was acquitted of blasphemy charges was nevertheless murdered in the street by people who disagreed with the verdict.

Islam is a mental derangement.

i hope one result of the fall of mubarak will be less cooperation in suppressing all palestinians.

You should also face facts on the idiocy of the concept of "Palestinians"

There was NEVER a nation of Palestine. It is only a place on the map like the North Pole. Not a sovereign nation. Therefore, since the nation of Palestine never existed, there can be no Palestinian people.

The arabs living in the British Mandate of Palestine before it became Israel in 1948 were simply that -- arabs living on that land, which had no sovereignty.

Today there are 6.5 million citizens of Israel. About 1.5 million are arab muslims. The arab muslims who were driven out in 1948 scattered to the surrounding territories, but those nations -- Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt refused to grant them or their descendants citizenship. Nice.

When refugees come to the US, their children born here are automatically American Citizens. But Islamic countries lack the compassion for giving that same status to arab muslims born on their soil. What a vile bunch they are.

maria said...

so the blockade hasn't made things worse? and it wasn't started after the election?

between your venom, spittle and personal attacks, it's so evident you can't address or debate facts.

i didn't ask for, don't need and don't want a history lesson. i will not defend something i never said i support.

for a history lesson that you clearly need on the blockade:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

Anonymous said...

Cheney dodged the Draft FIVE times.
Ummm...you could only find Rushdie on the Google? You need to go back and search some more.
Yep, wingnut Fundies murder people..whether doctors doing legal and medically necessary procedures, police officers doing their job, Federal employees, or those declared 'blasphemous' by wingnut 'religious leaders'. They are all looking for an excuse to kill unarmed people...and wingnuts give them cover.
For one so eager to Google...you should be easily able to find Arabic, Middle Eastern, Persian, or other Art and Literature. That you can't...speaks more about your...not wanting to. Like the Kagans.
Bleating that not looking for exports..and then that none exist..might work on christians and wingnuts...both not noted for academic excellence. However, I can find high-tech exports listed for the area...using der Google...and that makes me wonder how one avoids finding them.
As far as Islam being off...you somehow neglect the US wite-Fundie version of christian...which has murdered many. The US killing of doctors for the 'crime' of not obeying pants-wetting losers. How about the Ultra-Orthodox...who will gladly kill unarmed women...but crap their manly selves the moment the police arrive? Funny how the only evil religios for you are Muslim. Gosh, being in NYC (hah) you have more risk from the Ultras killing you for buying stuff on their Sabbath than you ever did from Talibani. You have more risk from wite-christians bombing unarmed civilians...for the crime of reading.

Mold

Anonymous said...

Maria, thanks for the link. I hope some posters will read it and see why Israel under Fundies is not a good idea.

Mold

Captain Amerikkka said...

maria said...i didn't ask for, don't need and don't want a history lesson.

You have a strong commitment to ignorance, girl. Why do you feel the need to share it?

Fred said...

i don't know that any of us have a strong commitment to ignorance; it's just that we have been hardwired by tptb. y can't we all join 2gether 2 fight the power?

Anonymous said...

I know Anon. Once a house Negro always a house Negro. :)


House, Field, whatever makes your little ego go up. Know what fills my balloon? Things I do, Things I accomplish, things I make, money I earn, people I help. Not wanting to drag everyone else into the cesspool with me instead of climbing out myself. Your a sad, sad person.

Spend that energy climbing out and helping someone else get out, dont spend all your time dragging others with you because you are pissed they aint as stinky and full of shit as you are.

mellaneous said...

Boy Field this thread brought all the propaganda.

Unfortunately too many believe some of these BIG LIES. I think most of our fellow citizens believe that nothing was going on in Africa until the Europeans arrived.

That statement of course is easy to refute. If anyone wants to know how accomplished parts of Africa should just do their due diligance and research Africa during the Middle Ages. As just about any student of history knows, Africa was thriving while Europe was in the Dark Ages.

Much of Europe was barbaric while many African's were thriving and living in organized societies. All one has to do is read what the Romans thought of all the Europeans they encountered during the Empire's hey day.

And the other whopper that Palestinians came out of the sky blue and there was no such country by that name comes right out of the right wing Zionist handbook.

If that were true then how would Isreal legitimize itself.

field negro said...

"..Spend that energy climbing out and helping someone else get out, dont spend all your time dragging others with you because you are pissed they aint as stinky and full of shit as you are."

Anon. just be glad that you are in the house where they give you toilet- paper to clean up YOUR s&^%. ;)

StillaPanther2 said...

To Slappy....yougot the draft dates wrong. You check them. I know having being in RVN 1969, The deferrment were used by more whites to avoid a fight they jumped into and couldn't end quickly. BBy the way Mr. McCain nerver set foot in South Vietnam, where the war was raging. You know and I know...if you are globally that certain situations are embellished where the writer is the subject. Another one was Bro. Bush was a spoiled white-boy that was accorded much during the times of his youth. It may be hard to duplicate his spoilness today but then look at Ms Hilton and her mockery of the legal system. There are many prima donnas today.. there were more in the 60s/70 along the race line.

Ernesto said...

"Revolutions can be merciless...French, English, and Russian aristocrats only survived...if they were out of the country.
Lincoln prevented this."

I knew there was something I didn't like about "16". And that's it. But it was the sellout of radical reconstruction in 1877 that gave us the modern Republican Party of Confederate racists.

Padre Mickey said...

Well, blacks did settle in Central America, but most were not from the U.S.A. but from the West Indies. Tenemos muchos afro-antillanos en Panamá, Costa Rica, y Nicaragua.