OK, let me jump in here. I read the following post from Carmen Dixon over on AOL Black Voices:
"At the risk of augmenting album sales for a performer I don't personally support, I call your attention to Eminem's latest track attack on Mariah Carey and her husband Nick Cannon's confrontational response. This back and forth is a little more interesting than the standard diss and diss back, because Cannon calls out the racial dynamic of Eminem's sexually derogatory attacks on Mariah Carey in a track called 'Bagpipes From Baghdad' from Eminem's forthcoming album, 'Relapse.' Here's just an excerpt of what Cannon had to say to Eminem, calling him "Slim Lamey," via a Friday blog post, which seems to have been taken down:
Maybe I'm going too far, but I thought we moved beyond the days where white men could spew vulgar obscenities at our beautiful queens and get away with it. What's next? Source: Rap-Up.comCannon continues:
Are we going to let this trash say something horrible about our lovely first lady, Mrs. Michelle Obama? Or would Marshall have talked sideways out of his neck like this about Oprah Winfrey? This act of racist bigotry cannot go unnoticed. Calling my wife a "c-word" and a "whore" is way worse than anything Don Imus could have ever said. So trust, repercussions will be served.Cannon raises an interesting point. Given that Eminem has used racist, derogatory language to describe black people, and black women in particular, in previous lyrics, why do so many black people lap up what he lays down?Reading the comment threads surrounding this drama, I am surprised by the number of women and black people defending Eminem when Asher Roth just got excoriated for joking about "nappy headed hoes." And rightly so, I might add.Please explain it to me. Why does the black community continue to support Eminem despite his racist lyrics?"
Nick, there won't be any repercussions from moi, because, sorry, I am just not feeling your wife Mariah as one of our "beautiful Queens". Yeah yeah yeah, I know she passes the "one drop rule" and the whole nine. But in my humble opinion, to be a black "Queen", you have to first consider yourself a black Queen.
Now I am no big Eminem fan. To me, he is just a decent lyricist who is not afraid to be controversial. But that's about it. As far as rapping goes he is nothing special. Give this old head Talib Kweli, Black Thought, Common, or U-Roy. (Whoops, I almost left out Masta Ace) But Nick Cannon taking on the great white hope of rap is ludicrous. NICK CANNON? The same Nick Cannon who had that coon fest on MTV, "Wild N Out"? Yeah right
Look Nick, I know she is your wife, and you have to defend her honor. You should be commended for that. Just don't expect us field Negroes to sabotage massa's crops over this shit.
I am just saying.
157 comments:
Here you go again with your "not black enough" baloney. You said the same thing about Obama. There isn't a fair skinned black person of any notoriety that negroes don't talk about like a dog.
The fact is, you CAN say anything about black women and get away with it. You justify it this time because it's Mariah. Or Oprah, or any very successful powerful black woman.
The Don Imus affair was about Imus. It was a way to go after a guy that black journalists detested. It never was about the basketball players. That Hughly worm went on Leno and said the same thing Imus did and negroes ate it up with a spoon.
Eminem isn't doing anything that black hip hop "talents" haven't been doing for decades.
Mariah has committed the sin of being mixed race and fair skinned. Against that backdrop, black folks play out their racial issues.
Eminem is trailer park trash who needs to engage in publicity stunts to sell his recpords. He's a little short insecure man who deserves to be ignored.
And if Mariah's black identity is not "authentic" enough, recall it was her black father who abandoned her to deal with identity issues on her own.
"Nick, there won't be any repercussions from moi, because, sorry, I am just not feeling your wife Mariah as one of our "beautiful Queens". Yeah yeah yeah, I know she passes the "one drop rule" and the whole nine. But in my humble opinion, to be a black "Queen", you have to first consider yourself a black Queen."
Perhaps Mariah has trouble considering herself a "black queen" because folks, white and black, have been telling her what she is for years.
Cannon should, of course, defend his wife, but Mariah Carey certainly does not consider herself black. I don't know about the queen part.
One other thing, many years ago I heard a black female writer discourage the use of the phrase "fair-skinned," because, in her estimation, someone with dark skin infers that their skin is (somehow) "unfair." When my students are having heated discussions about skin color and I hear one of them say "so & so is fair-skinned," I present them with the dynamics of the phrase. Now, whether they wish to continue using the phrase or not is strictly up to them. Mariah Carey, well, as talented as she is, considers herself non-black. She might be Cannon's queen, but I certainly don't consider her a black queen. No way. No how.
I'm sorry, but I don't get this kind of call for protest. Trying to organize around offensive things that lousy entertainers like Imus, Eminem, Asher Roth (or DL Hughley for that matter) say about specific black people is a complete waste of time.
Crying about this stuff is embarrassing, really.
Aren't there more pressing problems?
I just did some googling and not only did her aeronautical engineer father abandon her, she experienced periods of real poverty. Her family was tortured because the kids were mixed. I'm sure white folks did the torturing just as I'm sure black folks did too.
I don't always like her material or her hoochie couture but it is a joy to hear her sing.
Want to get in my comments before the trolls arrive.
By the way, finding out that Drackman is in the joint on 24/7 booty call for Big Tiny is almost poetic.
mass culture dehumanizes everyone in this society. it devalues. it reifies. our consciousness has been devoured by trash like Marshall Mathers, Mariah Carey and many others for years. I am supposed to care if these two insiders, who profit off dehumanization, had a minor tiff with one another? sorry, i don't care.
Oh christ. The thin skinned vocabulary police have arrived.
Mariah Carey does more for inner city kids than don't give a shit about his people Michael Jordan that negroes can'tworship enough.
Yep, it's okay to talk about black women any way folks want. Deciding she's not black enough makes it even easier.
West Coast:
I don't think it's okay to talk about black women, white men or anyone inbetween in a disrespectful manner. Obviously, you and I are in the minority judging by the sales of MTV.
The media, while it might make a big show of outrage, promotes the dehumanization of both women and men through language. It promotes the dehumanization of both Blacks and Whites in the same way. Mostly, it does this so that working people are divided, fighting among themselves, along race/sex lines. People are easy to exploit when they're squabbling, and the fatcats make out really well this way.
When two media stooges treat one another in the way they treat the rest of us, I'm not going to lift a finger, except to point, laugh, mock and perhaps try and explain. It's high time that working people and working intellectuals quit subsidizing these dolts and began growing a healthy culture of our own.
Just my opinion...
G
Field,
You know I love the big-up to U Roy--"The Tide is High," brudda.
Don't like the reverse paper bag test, though.
In all fairness, I have heard Mariah refer to herself as mixed before, which is what she is. We should let the woman define herself.
As far as Nick goes, I'd be more sympathetic to his cause if Eminem were calling Mariah out for her race. However, it doesn't sound like it so far. Eminem insults people. That's what he does. To try to make it into some kind of racial crusade is just "race card" BS. What? Are Sharpton and Jesse looking for a successor?
Field, I love yo' Black, nappy headed ASS!
"...Asher Roth just got excoriated for joking about "nappy headed hoes." And rightly so, I might add.Please explain it to me. Why does the black community continue to support Eminem despite his racist lyrics?"
When you have been Black as long as I have the answer is simple:
"There are white folks, and then there are White folks."
Asher Roth is a typical white privileged know nothing white boy. Eminem is one of those rare white boys. Asher 'repels' Blacks, Eminem entertains Blacks. I think most Blacks get the difference. But some Blacks don't. That's because:
"There are black folks(HN), and then there are Black folks(FN)".
At best, Mariah is on the patio. But I sense that she might be in the house. Either way, she is entitled to her life, and I will always love her and her singing.
So, I agree with you, Field. There is no good reason for Field Negroes to rebel against Eminem for Mariah and what's his face. And don't get me wrong, she is still a Sista but "there are sistas and then there are Sistas".
Call me when they all drop dead.
Field,
Senator Max Baucus deserves the House Negro award for his undying love for insurance companies and for having 5 nurses, doctors and an activist arrested for asking to have "single payer" sit at the table of health care discussions.
And this is on top of his having 8 other doctors and activists arrested the other day.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5638716&mesg_id=5638716
The real Max Baucus is a contemptuous corporatist who loves his masters house, that is the insurance companies house.
Hmm, he is offended because his wife was referenced negatively in an Eminem song, hell I was offended when I first heard rappers referring to women as B&H’s twenty years ago. I am sure young Nick was all into the B&H calling rap game. I understand him wanting to defend his wife honor, hell she probably had to tell him to step up to Emimen.
My message to Nick and those who are going to protest with him…Do your thing and stand up for Mariah, while you all are at it stand up to the all the rappers who demean women. As for as I am concerned, you are a day late and a dollar short, my protest began many years ago against rappers that demeaned women and glorified violence.
Nick Cannon leading a protest?
I get he has to stand up for his wife but if he is really concerned about how "black queens" are treated he needs to talk to some of his hip-hop pals as well.
A rapper spewing derogatory language about women. Gosh, what a novelty.
Hey Filled Negro:
I have to agree with you - Eminem should stick to attacking Sara Palin with ignorant and misogynistic lyrics, telling of what he'd do to her sexually. That way he'll steer clear of the wrath of feminists.
("I Am Troy Davis" - Simply FREAKING AMAZING!!!!
I hope that MURDERER Troy Davis Is Tasered using the "plug in chair".
You know that they now use "Green Power" for the electric chair in Georgia, right?
Who did kill the officer, Filled Negro?
Did Troy Davis shoot the other guy at the party a few hours prior to him killing the cop in Savannah....as the man who was shot by Troy Davis and lived to tell about it INDICATES? He must have been lying. Lead poisoning makes you delusional.
Then again, I am talking to the charter member of the "Mumia Abu Jamal DIDN'T DO IT" Fan club. No doubt when Jamal pulled his weapon, as he admitted, he was aiming to DEFEND the now dead cop from an attack by the Phantom Negro that flew away in the middle of the night.
Filled Negro - your Philly Murder Count that you post on the Right Side Hall Of Shame proves that KARMA works in mysterious ways. Here you are with MURDER dripping blood all around you and you are left to apply your talents into propagandizing in support of CELEBRITY MURDERERS.
You must feel that you are really accomplishing something.)
"Here you go again with your "not black enough" baloney. You said the same thing about Obama. There isn't a fair skinned black person of any notoriety that negroes don't talk about like a dog."
You must have missed my FN 101 post. I don't think if Nick Cannon was married to Alicia Keyes we would even be having this discussion. In fact, I would probably be joining Nick's "Fight The Power" march.
See what Gregoire said. I co sign. Someone should remind Nick Cannon of the phrase, "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
"My message to Nick and those who are going to protest with him…Do your thing and stand up for Mariah, while you all are at it stand up to the all the rappers who demean women. As for as I am concerned, you are a day late and a dollar short, my protest began many years ago against rappers that demeaned women and glorified violence."
May I sign on to that message?
boukman, you know I couldn't leave out the King.:)
Hi Unconstructive. I see they let you out of Conservative Indoctrination College (good old CIC) for a few days. I am sure you are making A's in all your classes. :)
But this post was about...what was it about again? Oh yes, Nick Cannon and his wife. Yet we get Sarah Palin, Troy Davis, and Mumia. Nice.
"I hope that MURDERER Troy Davis Is Tasered using the "plug in chair"'.
And let me quess; you are against the "Pro Choice" movement. You are as comical as you are predictable.
And for the record, I think Mumia is guilty. But I still don't think he received a fair trial. (And I think I happen to know a little more about this subject and the Jusge who tried him than you do) And if he is given a fair trial and found guilty, he should NOT be given the death penalty. No one should in A-murder-ca. Not even you, Unconstructive.;)
Field, I don't know where you got the idea that Mariah doesn't think she's Black. She all but shouted it from the mountia tops in Ebony magazine not long ago and has consistently done so in Black media.
I think you forget that she ws once a big crossover hit so could have long ago forgotten about her "people" and just focused on maintaining a "pop" sound.
BTW, there is no one way to be a "black queen".
Hey Nick, couple things...
Eminem said worse things about his own mother so consider the source.
It may not be OK for Eminem to dissrespect black women but what about you? You are in the industry what are you doing to defend the honor of black women? You are sounding the battle call for all but where were you before your woman got singled out? What did you have to say about her wholesomeness' duet with ODB? (Rest in peace).
Help yourself out and go listen to Goodie M.O.B.'s "Beautiful Skin" to find how an artist takes up for women.
I am an acquaintance of the Nevelle Brothers and while attending one of their small venue concerts, they introduced me to a young Mariah Carey. She seemed to be a very nice girl and was certainly comfortable in the predominently black crowd, just as I was. She was just starting out and I had no idea she was about to be a big star (I didn't even know she was a singer and she never said).
Isn't she related to a very famous R&B singer?
She does outreach work in the black community and has been supportive of black causes. So, she's not black enough?
I don't care for her style of music, but I think she is a decent human being who deserves some respect, black enough or not.
At least she ain't no Brittany!
Cheers,
Whitney
Eminem comes out with a new album and disses another woman he has history with. Wahoo. I'm so over his dis tracks that generate cheap buzz and news stories that do nothing but boost album sales. I never bought anything he put out, although I did enjoy some of his singles and music videos. The best way to deal with him is to ignore him.
I'm kind of surprised Nick and Mariah are still together. The marriage came completely out of left field and sounded like one of those fleeting Hollywood marriages.
i am elated to see any young black man say anything positive about any young black woman...
i hate the woman hating enema and i side with nick...enema hates all women of all races
and mariah is just as black as obama...she has the same black dad and white mom
i love mariah and she is a great soulful singer...
fyi
peace
ab
The music industry in transition.
Sales of CDs are declining as more people download their music files to their IPods and the like.
Record stores are disappearing. Outlets like Tower Records and the Virgin Superstores are closing, leaving artists like Prince to strike marketing deals with Target because there aren't many other retailers left to sell your music in a mass market model.
Which brings me to the little bitch, Eminem.
My guess is, his diss of Mariah Carey -- who happens to be a very talented pop singer with an amazing set of pipes, is just his effort to whore his new CD.
Call it self promotion. He needs to sell those units because he sure as hell doesn't want to have to move back to the other end of Eight Mile Road.
"Yep, it's okay to talk about black women any way folks want,:
Oh bull$hit.
What cracks me up is the same folks like you and ab who are always whining about how black women are disrespected talk about black men like they're barely domesticated animals.
It's all projection.
As far as I'm concerned, fvck a Mariah Carey and a Eminem.
They both suck.
ditto c:
enema even hates the white women in his own family...
http://www.geocities.com/ambwww/enema.htm
peace
ab
Nick "I'm not trying to be your man, pimp bones in my body..." salty about what somebody who (as mentioned earlier) dissed his own mother and wife - thanks for helping Em sell more cds.
Is this the same Nick Cannon who stated his attraction to "White girls, can't get enough of 'em!' pre-Mariah days? And now he wants Black people to go to arms over this nonsense, and he had the nerve to bring Mrs. Obama's and Oprah's names into it!? Fuck his corny ass, I don't know how that lame negro even managed to have a career in showbiz. He should just be thrilled to be Mariah's pool boy and go sit the fuk down.
Why only now Cannon wants to get offended about what people say about "black queens"? People like that racist opportunist rat-face EminEnemy has been openly disrespecting Black females for a long time now? Where has he been all this time?
I can't stand the three of them. It's interesting because Cannon knows Mariah openly doesn't even consider herself a "black woman", I'm sure he doesn't either. So now he wants to ride on the black female emotion to back up his own agenda. Fuck Eminem. Fuck Cannon. Fuck Mariah. {spit}
I wish black women would stop fueling and buying material from people like these THREE black female hating eye diggers. Period.
And it's not about the bi-raceful or "fair skinned" black people being talked about like a dog either, I wish people would just stop saying that stupid shit.
"sorry, I am just not feeling your wife Mariah as one of our "beautiful Queens"."
Boop Boop. Amen.
To be honest, Nick got a lot of you doing exactly what he wanted. Mariah is Eminem's ex and he's dissing her. Instead of Nick just defending her and blowing it off, he's trying to get the black community involved to fight something he should be doing himself. I'm sorry, but sounding a call for everyone else to fight what's really a private battle is house behavior. Nick used to try to rap, so why doesn't he go record something instead of just pulling the race card when it's not needed? Man, I think Da Brat could defend Mariah better than Nick can.
Eminem insults women of all races in his music. He is to me a talented wordsmith, but his very apparent mysogyny have never allowed me to buy one of his records, and that ain't going to change now.
Nick missed the boat on this one trying to oversell his defense of his wife. As a man, I applaud him standing up for his wife. But the issue with Eminem isn't hatred of Black women, it's Em's hatred of women period. Hell, his first single dissed Britney, Jessica Simpson, and other women. He typically has tracks discussing a desire to kill his (now) ex-wife. Tracks calling out his mother out of her name.
Nick, quit trying to oversell your case.
Is this the same Nick Cannon who stated his attraction to "White girls, can't get enough of 'em!' pre-Mariah days? And now he wants Black people to go to arms over this nonsense, and he had the nerve to bring Mrs. Obama's and Oprah's names into it!? Fuck his corny ass, I don't know how that lame negro even managed to have a career in showbiz. He should just be thrilled to be Mariah's pool boy and go sit the fuk down.
--------------------------------
THANK YOU!!! Nick Cannon needs to go sit the fuck down somewhere and have a nice tall glass of shut the fuck up. And isn't this the same Mariah Carey who earlier in her career thought it best to listen to her advisers at the time and agree to have a press conference to not only promote her first album but announce or rather denounce her racial identity. She wasn't exactly embracing the black in her. Read the book "Bulletproof Diva" by Jill Jones some time. She devotes an entire chapter to that madness.
Eminem on the other hand is like a permanently petulant four year old. The best way to deal with him is to ignore him. Never understood what the big deal was.
I think Ta-Nehisi called out M&M correctly here, "I simply couldn't make it through the new Eminem video--you know the one where he waxes humorously about sex with Sarah Palin. Part of it is the fact that, skills aside, Eminem is a bully. Rap beefs are played, no doubt, but no one has picked weaker opponents than Eminem. Here is guy who feuded with Britney Spears and Christina Aguliera. Kim Kardashian? Come on killer, at least lick a few hot ones at Ray J."
http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/04/how_to_talk_to_a_girl.php
"the issue with Eminem isn't hatred of Black women, it's Em's hatred of women period."
Is that what some of you black males tell yourself to ease the burden of not defending black women from EminEnemy and ilk?
Just curious. When Em malign those white females in his lyrics, does he also do it while referencing them being white? There is a difference.
Eminem raps about killing his ex-wife and the mother of his kid?
No way? Classy guy. What a loser.
Violence against women is always so artistic -- NOT!
As a black woman, this whole thing offends me. I do not want ANY of my sisters, daughters, Moms, friedns called out of their name. PERIOD. To me Nick is being honorable in defending his wife. Wish all men would do this then maybe the world would be a better place. Because it all starts in the home.
I believe MM is filthy loud mouth white trash that would do anything to jump back into the spotlight and make money off his CD that I will not purchase.
Well this guy has always come off as kind of misogynistic, homophobic and just a guy with sexuality issues, so, maybe he is a short gay white guy wishing he were a diva singing black woman since he has major issues with women of all races!
ROFL at this faux-buzz...
I think Mariah Carey is culturally more black than Michael Steele as He may be the whitiest black man I have ever seen or may be he is just not cool and pretends he is and just stupid, my vote is for the latter. I have always had a problem with people who do not think Carey is not black enough in their eyes. She is bi-racial as is Alicia Keys, but we tend to place labels on them to make ourselves feel good. There has always been a complex issue about race within our own community. As Wendy Sykes said her routine at the correspondence dinner Obama will be the black president until he screws up, then we will ask what's up with the half-whtie dude. It's like when a child screws up and one the parents will tell the other what is going on with your child. This our pathology about race within the black community. I remember when I was in high school, I dated a guy who was darker than me. This did not bother me, but my mother had problems with this and the irony was that my grandmother was the same hue as him. And this good vs bad hair, we need to learn how to deal with our issues about the skin complexity issue.
This is my thought, it is not up to me really to decide who is black enough as it is above my pay-scale as the President said. No one can really tell what black enough means and it's subjective at best. Oh, you are not black because of the manner of your speak, attended college, or want to relax your hair. We ask for diversity, but do not practice it within our community.
"Is that what some of you black males tell yourself to ease the burden of not defending black women from EminEnemy and ilk?"
Oh geez.
Did you defend black men against Terry McMillan and Alice Walker?
Mariah Carey's Black???
and I'll take some Young MC or Humpty Hump any day..
I don't like or listen to rap/hiphop or whatever you call it. too much n-word this and n-word that, you my b-word, and calling women b's and ho's, gat this, gat that. Frankly, if I can't say it in front of my mother, my grandmother, or in church then I shouldn't say it at all. Unfortunately, a lot of us havent't been raised "correctly". Southern brother's now what I mean.....
Black people show a great propensity for being derogatory toward each other - demeaning language in rap lyrics, using the N-word (with pride even!), tolerating (even celebrating) grown ass men who mess with teenagers. Ecetera, ecetera, ecetera.
Can't expect someone to respect you if you don't even respect yourself.
"tolerating (even celebrating) grown ass men who mess with teenagers."
As opposed to grown ass priests who mess around with little boys?
And isn't Eminem white?
Where do these idiots come from?
Off topic:
The 50th Anniversary events celebrating the first brave black folks to protest and "Wade In" to the white beaches in Mississippi will be held this weekend in Biloxi and other coastal areas.
Here is the link with the details:
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_action=doc&p_docid=128165BE3B716070&p_docnum=5
Court ruling on the desegregation of the beaches in Mississippi did not occur 1968.
Just thought those of you who live near here may want to come over.
Think the issue best be taken up between Mr. Cannon and Eminem.
Obviously Eminiem has some "problems" with women, but trying to get the black community to form "what army" at your back is lame.
Always thought Clinton should have kicked Drugbo's fat ass all over his stage back in '93 when Drugbo attacked Clinton's 12 year old daughter. At the moment he didn't I knew he wasn't our first "Black President".
"Did you defend black men against Terry McMillan and Alice Walker?"
Did you defend corporate white males against Affirmative Action?
(I'll bet you're trying to figure out how those two references could symbolize in common, take the next couple months to marinate on it).
Another note, it's proven culturally as well as in the media how much black females openly defend black males at a higher rate compared to the opposite.
I'll assume you didn't defend us.
"Another note, it's proven culturally as well as in the media how much black females openly defend black males at a higher rate compared to the opposite."
Proven by whom?
Oprah? Whoopi? Alicia Banks?
LMAO!!!!!!
Millions of dollars have been spent to market Eminem and millions of dollars have been made.
Once the money machime gets rolling nothing short of a riot or a Michael Richards style melt down will stop it.
I am sure black record Execs like their white counterparts are grinning like Cheshire cats about Asher Roth dropping "the nappy headed hoes" comment.
Because there is no such thing as bad press????? Right? Ask Ms. PreJean
"Because there is no such thing as bad press????? Right?"
True, up until today I have never even heard of Asher Roth. Sick.
us/lm:
it is actually proven often
i gladly except the compliment...
but i concede the most recent honor to one courageous black male roland martin...
see:
he is being crucified by black women defending their own kids' absent/deadbeat dads...suicidally/masochistically
en masse as always...
see:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/06/martin.fathers/index.html
peace,
ab
rushing
accept the compliment
typo
i sent the wrong link
rushing
sorry!
ab
see
http://essence.typepad.com/news/2009/05/pastors-should-meet-with-baby-daddies-before-dedicating-a-child.html
"And isn't this the same Mariah Carey who earlier in her career thought it best to listen to her advisers at the time and agree to have a press conference to not only promote her first album but announce or rather denounce her racial identity."
Anyone that really know Mariahs' story knows that she was very much under the control of her husband at the tine Tommy Matola.
Man, I guess we have the anti Mariah crew in the house today who made perfect decisions in their late teens/early 20s!
Field,
O/T. Tell me it isn't so?
Your hometown paper, the Philadelphia Inquirer, has hired John Yoo to do a monthly column?
No, no, no, no, no!
FN: why/how is Alicia Keys blacker than Mariah?
(This whole issue has nothing to do with Nick Cannon as far as I am concerned, and he is the McGuffin here).
Ms keys has finally decided to project an image of a lady instead of carrying herself with that annoying street swaagger. Some stand up comedian even did a riff on it. I always thought her dudish earlier image was an affectation. She is enormously talented and shouldn't have to flash her black credentials to be taken seriously.
I honestly want a dissection of what makes Mariah not black enough. The fact is, she is half black and her father is from a other country. How should she present herself? Her music is clearly rooted in R&B.
Do people get to define who they are or are all of us beholden to the impressions, labels, and expectations of others?
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really trying to understand this whole not black enough thing. I get it with respect to someone like Wilt Chamberlain who said in his autobiography that he wouldn't be caught dead with a black woman. What did Mariah do or say to earn that label?
One more thing. I admire Carey for dumping Mattola and taking control of her life and career. Some women take decades to get to that point. I don't dig the hip hop influence and the hoochie outfits but I love the girl's voice.
Also, is it possible she left Mattola because she knew she would never want to be white enough for him?
I read both of Chamblerlain's biographies and don't recall him saying anything of the sort.
If someone wants to challenge John Coltrane's sainthood, that's one thing. But a pissing match among hip-hoppers? Oh please.
I should have written that differently: If someone dares challenge John Coltrane's sainthood.
For anyone interested in the truth, google "wilt chamberlain and black women.". Can't cut and paste with the blacberry. As one would expect from Uptown Troll, a lie and a defense of an Uncle Tom. Chamberlain made disgusting comments about black women in his 1973 autobio. I watched him say it on either Merv Griffin or Mike Douglas. Just another dumbass Uncle Tom athlete
I heard Ice Cube recently still defending his racist lyrics towards asains.. jsutifying it by they "dissed" his mama. A black DJ in NY performed a parody of "We Are the World" in which she laughed at the thousands of ASians who died in the Tsunai. PArt of the lyrics goes "SToopid chinks don't know how to swim. HA HA HA". Black folks have NO business demanding special treatment. Of course Eminem should be able to dis any black woman he wants, fair is fair. This anger that the limit of free speech stops when white people talk about black people the same way black people talk about whites, asians, jews, gays, women etc is SO no okay.
" I thought we moved beyond the days where white men could spew vulgar obscenities at our beautiful queens and get away with it."
Well black men can spew vulgar obsenities at everyone and the kitchen sink. No double standards. This quote above echo's what I hear so often from black folks- the line between what is acceptable and not is whatever makes black people mad. Not okay. I don't see him complaining about hate speech from black men to women, gays, asians, whites, jews, etc. Sorry, yes Em can and should get away with it, just like black folks do.
He thinks the days when whites can speak ill of a black person are over? I think the days of Jim Crow LAws are over, yet in his own way he's trying to inforce it.
West Coast,
You're lying sweetie and you got busted.
I read both Chamberlain's books and what he said was he didn't like black women as sex partners because they didn't give head and weren't as freaky as white women.
I'm hardly defending Wilt.
I think he was a self-hating idiot.
But what really cracks me is that if a black woman like Whoopi Goldberg who clearly prefers white men had made a similar remark about brother, you wouldn't have said shyt.
No one needs defending. Mariah should speak up for her own damn self! But if her husband wants to so fucking what! But Eminem's opinion is not anything to get all ruffled about. He has no love lost for his own damn mother; or the mother of his child so why should anyone think he actually gives a shit about others.?!!!!
And in terms of Alicia not being 'black enough', I don't care there's no accurate measurement of such a subjective thing.
In her case I never thought she was confused about her Blackness, I thought she was ambivalent about her sexual orientation...(whatever that is). I don't care, I like some of her songs and that's what matters.
Looking at that picture of Nick Cannon with his beau, I can't help but notice how aged he looks, compared to other pictures. I always had a theory that young men getting with older women make them look older, let alone feel older.
As a black woman, this whole thing offends me. I do not want ANY of my sisters, daughters, Moms, friedns called out of their name. PERIOD.
______________________
Guess what? Neither does anyone else of any race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, culture, etc. If this standard were applied accross the board very few hip-hop or rap albums, esp the classics, would exist. The offense of black women shouldn't count for more than anyone else's.
wcs:
ditto!
alicia keys/obama/and mariah are all equally black!...why are bi-racial women held to a higher racial standard than obama/derek jeter/yannick noah etc???
i love lisa jones' book bulletproof diva....i read it a very long time ago...
but i recall her saying that mariah was the one who hated being called "a white girl who could sing" by music media pundits...it was mc who demanded host that press conference to declare herself black and our her dad's race etc...
mariah forced her PR people to allow her to be black...to stop lightening her skin tone etc...
i have always loved mc and viewed her and her voice as very afro...
mariah's awesome vocal range can hold its own against even minnie ripperton ...
i have no issued with nick cannon...he is cute even if corny...and he is no more colorist than any other typical bro in america...
peace
ab
Ugh oh,
WC Story, now you're in a back and forth with UT Steve. Stop it! Maybe AB was right, about this I mean.
Just stick with the topic and Christopher, Jody, (me?), et al and leave the schmutz to others.
Whoopi has never said such a thing. Chamberlain on a talk show I watched said that black women were not sophisticated enough. He said black women weren't good sex partners. Two words, Uncle Tom.
I'm done with you Uncle Troll. You have no critical thinking ability and and you are the typical whining crying victimized black male. Snuffle, poor little you. You sound like a refugee from an "Living Color" sketch. You know, the characters that didn't know people were laughing at them and not with them.
Field, why do you have all these wannabe traffic cops on your blog?
I have never seen so many nosy ass busybodies in my life.
You don't like what I have to say, skip over my posts.
Whitney: You are so right. I needed to be slapped back to reality. LOL.
"you are the typical whining crying victimized black male."
OOhh, no stereotyping there, eh?
Here's some advice WC.
Don't waste your life hating black men just because you can't get one.
Alicia Banks,
I owe you an apology. Perhaps, as you said, you were being baited by UT Steve because I have noticed that your remarks today have stayed on topic and are quite interesting. And, you've been complimentary where due. Nice!
I had no idea what Mariah Carey had been through. Pretty terrible. When I met her she was but a sweet innocent child, just starting out. I had no idea she was soon to be such a big hit as no one, not even she mentioned she was a singer.
As I said before, I do not like this style of singing, but I have to admit the girl has a fantastic voice and range. More impressive than I knew before reading all these posts.
Regards,
Whitney
Field,
I just posted a Daily Rant that may be ripe for your take on it.
Might be total fucking crap. I am, as ever, operating almost blind in this area.
TItle: "Change We Can Believe In... And the Beat Goes On."
It began as a castigation of Limbaugh's current race baiting and ended with me ruminating on the current generation of mankind as Moses... do NOT ask. You have to read it. But I went places in the beginning that might be absolutely horrifyingly offensive. I just don't know.
-- Maryscott
I don't think Mariah's voice comes anywhere near to the quality that Minnie Ripperton expressed. Nope. No contest at all (of course this is just my humble opinion.)
Just went back through the posts and find out VOILA, Whitney B is white!
No wonder she's trying to run shit.
LMAO!
wb:
thanks!
apology accepted...
i am a very cool leo...a kitten unless i am provoked...only then a lioness
and i wish FAR more black celebs were as afro and cool as nick and mariah...
peace
ab
I didn't even know that Nick Cannon and Mariah Carey were married...
peace, Villager
Not to derail this thread (but I guess I will, because I am so outraged):
Mr. Field!
Our hometown newspaper just hired JOHN YOO as a columnist (I wonder how much they are paying him at a time of massive layoffs and cutbacks in reporting at the PI). I want to know what you think about this. For me, they might as well have hired Torquemada. Disgusting.
The Philadelphia Inquirer has been drifting rightward ever since it was purchased by a consortium led by Brian Tierney, an advertising executive and a lifelong rightwing Republican from the Philadelphia area.
Cannon states "This act of racist bigotry cannot go unnoticed."
Who's racism? I say it's Cannon who's participating in bigotry. Since Imus said "Nappy Headed" obviously it is fair to say his words were race related. It is not fair to label a whote man making sexist remarks towards a black woman as racist if there is no evidence of racism. Otherwise Cannon is simply saying white men are "racist" for making a comment about a black woman that is OK to say about a white woman. This is in itself racist. BTW how is Em's comments about Miriah more racist than Jamie Foxx's comments about Miley Cyrus?
uptownsteve said...
But what really cracks me is that if a black woman like Whoopi Goldberg who clearly prefers white men had made a similar remark about brother, you wouldn't have said shyt.
Lets be REAL clear about why Whoppie likes men. BECAUSE THEY LIKE HER!!!!
If Blackmen YOU didn't call her ugly, maybe she would date Black men.
I say if she likes it, I LOVE it, more Black women need to stop waiting on some of you triflin brotha's and receive love from the man that loves you, no what his skin color.
Then tell them to kiss your "ugly" ass!
dam I left out a LOT of words, LOL!!!
The disappointment is that rap at its best is such a positive form in its honesty & skill - who cares otherwise about poetry in America except poets? A poet once told me to pay attention to real country music - the grim, underclass stuff about alcoholism, broken marriages, coal mining, & exhausted truckers trying to get home. That poet was Amiri Baraka.
"If Blackmen YOU didn't call her ugly, maybe she would date Black men.
I say if she likes it, I LOVE it, more Black women need to stop waiting on some of you triflin brotha's and receive love from the man that loves you, no what his skin color."
Agree.
"I say if she likes it, I LOVE it, more Black women need to stop waiting on some of you triflin brotha's and receive love from the man that loves you, no what his skin color."
The total hypocrisy and inconsistency of some of you sistahs is a wonder to behold.
If a black women dates exclusively white women, it's because us triflin brothers drover her to it.
But if a black man dates white women, he's betraying the sistahs.
Then a couple of you claim that black men routinely disrespect and bad mouth black women while you incessantly attack, slander and stereotype black men!!!!
The double standard is not to be believed.
And if Whoopi Goldberg wasn't worth millions she couldn't get a date on cellblock.
I meant to say
If a black women dates exclusively white men
I have to agree with Anon 4:11. Jamie should have got his butt stomped by Billy Ray for that. I don't think Nick is wrong for defending his wife, but all he did was kick up some dust to get everybody having flashbacks about their dealing with the opposite sex or white folks to cover up his own lame comeback.
Unless there is more, this is what Eminem is reported to have said calling out Mariah in his new song.
"Nick Cannon better back the fuck up. I'm not playing, I want her back, you punk. Nick Cannon, you prick, I wish you luck with that fuckin' whore."
Now unless someone provides some other quote where his language got "racial" I'll ask this question. Where is the "racism" in that quote? What is see is some sexist languague... mysogyny at its best ... sprinkled with a bit of homophobia or homohatred. But what I don't see is "racist" language, regardless of what Mariah's color is.
I get how this discussion is the perfect springboard for some among us to being the "Black men suck" diatribe, but leaving all that aside, what about that there quote was 'racist' reflecting a deep hatred of "Black" women? Is it because he called Mariah Carey a "whore"?
So I go back to my original point. This particular track of Marshall Mathers appears to be mysogynistic, rude, but ain't no racism there and if we're going to talk about we've got to be able to identify it when it actually happens and not when we wish it to have happened.
1) Whoppie was dating white men BEFORE she became famous ie her daugher is biracial and was born very near the beginning of her career.
2) I could care less about black men dating white men, hell I've dated white men my dam self. The difference is that I didn't date white men looking for something BETTER than a brotha. A good number of the black men I know who date white women have issues, they hate their mothers, they hate Black women because one of thme flipped the "playa, playa" scrip on their sorry asses, or they hate themselves and don't want kids that look like them.
3) Black men that look to date white women because they think they're easier to get along with, can go 'head with that bullshit. In fact, ONLY a strong brotha can handle me and trust me, he handles me in EVERY way imaginable VERY well!
And no disrespect to your wife,but are you sure she's Black because your ass is untamed and WAY out of control. Hard to imagine a real sistah letting you slide with that shit.
I meant dating white women, OPPS!
"And no disrespect to your wife,but are you sure she's Black because your ass is untamed and WAY out of control. Hard to imagine a real sistah letting you slide with that shit."
This is exactly why you DON'T have a man.
You're too blind to see it.
Plus, you probably look like Patrick Ewing in drag.
Fly,
If this statement of yours is true (in all of its broad strokes):
"2) ... A good number of the black men I know who date white women have issues, they hate their mothers, they hate Black women because one of thme flipped the "playa, playa" scrip on their sorry asses, or they hate themselves and don't want kids that look like them."
Isn't the same thing true of Black women who date White men? I'll assume that in the above case you mean "exclusively" White women. The same would apply to Black women dating "exclusively" White men. So say you?
Keep in mind this isn't a referendum on you in particular. I don't know or really care who you date. I'm curious as to whether your broad strokes applies the other way too.
ditto fly!!!
whoopi has never been regarded as beautiful by any black man that i know...yet they lament her dating white men
wm consistently adore ebony skinned women far more than ebony skinned men...
contrast that to the beauty of oj simpson and all of the nba/nfl players who wed white women etc...
many black women like myself despise oj...but i have never called him ugly etc as bm do whoopi...
and us:
eddie murphy/lil wayne/ and many other ugly bros only get women because they are rich too...
cash rules all
fyi
ab
uptownsteve said...
This is exactly why you DON'T have a man.
Hey Dumbass, I'm MARRIED to a 6'3" deliciously chocolate brotha! He just happens to LOVE himself and a STRONG sista like me.
Are you jealous of my man, because trust me, you should be!!
Oh please.
Anybody who yaps as much about "trflin bruthas" as you ain't gettin' NONE.
BTW, what happened the 6'4 blue eyed surfer boy?
You're so full of crap the whites of your eyes are brown!
Isn't the same thing true of Black women who date White men? I'll assume that in the above case you mean "exclusively" White women. The same would apply to Black women dating "exclusively" White men. So say you?
No, I didn't mean exclusively white women. Please don't read into what Im writing. I can both write and spell (most of the time) the word exclusive.
And I love myself, so I'm going to assume that other strong sistahs who date white men feel the same.
Uptown, why do assume that any sistah who will check your black ass is manless? That is so lame!! Im sure you wouldn't want me to make assumptions about your views especially in this particular post although I kind already have.
Viagra anyone, LOL??
uptownsteve said...
"Anybody who yaps as much about "trflin bruthas" as you ain't gettin' NONE."
WRONG, and let's just say that there was MUCH more on the lunch menu than lunch in the traditional sense, but you wouldn't know anything about that which is why YOUR ass is so evil!!!
Oh my, I'm sure you're GREEN with envy now my brotha, ROTHLMAO!!!!!
And the blue eyed blonde I referred to was a date. Unlike you I didn't have to "serve" him like you did white chicks to make an impression.
Fly,
So what you are saying is that Black men who date White women (whether exclusively or not) have certain complexes and issues, but when Black women date White men (whether exclusive or not) they are just loving who is loving on them?
Am I understanding you correctly?
How can anyone in the Hip Hop community criticize Eminem for using the N-word or dissing Black wone when they do it even worse than he does? Every other word is Nigga this and Ho that. I mean, can we even countenance any attempt at Black conciousness from these modern day Steppin' Fetchits with bursting out laughing?
EzMun said...
Fly,
So what you are saying is that Black men who date White women (whether exclusively or not) have certain complexes and issues, but when Black women date White men (whether exclusive or not) they are just loving who is loving on them?
----------------------------
What I'm saying is that you need to ask a Black woman who has issues or someone who has relationships with Black women, what they think because I don't have a clue.
99.99% of the Black women I associate with are strong, Black women who don't date white men.
Speaking of strong Black women, what's up AB?
hey fly!
i have been just chillin' in the cut and admiring your strong debate all day!
peace
ab
And so the race card backfires.
Many black men reap from the colorist system and when things get tricky, fall back on the race card. Its been dependable thus far with BW rallying behind the "cause" that wasn't meant to benefit them in the first place.
There should be new rules, if you substantially reap from the colorist or white Supremist like through marriage, and don't give back to your community, the race card is off bounds.
Its pathetic to see the same Black men married to white women scream racism. These guys forget that whether they accept it or not, they have upgraded their social status through marriage and some white privilage does rub off onto them. Such people are no voices of the oppressed, they are just opportunists. Exploiting both the whites and the Blacks left behind.
As for Eminem, if no stones are being thrown towards Black rappers, none should be thrown at him either.
To Black women, the abuser comes in different colors. The expected response should be the same to all.
NOTE I am writing this a work as I am listening to " I don't want to cry" on my Ipod. Irony.
First, as a Black man who only dates Black women I can note a few things --
1. Statistically, over 80% of Black folks marry or have intimate relationships with other Black folks. Much like "the down low", the whole "Big Buck Chasing Becky" is a overblown media hyperbole.
2. Most my black friends who are dating or married to white folks weren't looking to marry outside their race -- it just happened, a la Jungle Fever and Something New. They were also all but ignored by Black folks of the opposite gender which brings me to...
3. From my experience, the cats that sisters lament about chasing Becky (well paid, successful, often educated) were pretty much off the radar when they were single and grinding. Kofi Anan, Dennis Rodman and Seal are perfect examples. Buy low and sell high, ladies!!
Now to Mr. Cannon -- people have been calling his wife a fruitcake hoochie since Nick was in short pants. That and the Cannons, on some level or another, have always been house negro minstrel (though Mimi can SAAANG, child!! LOL!)
Also, Eminem has had a career spewing hatred against women. Yes, 2Live Crew were misogynist booty chasers, but you never got the idea that they hate women. I think the only woman Marshall Mather's doesn't hate is daughter. Makes me wonder which team he's really on. Either way, he's got ish and Hip-hop has not spoken up about it. But I digress...
However, even if my girl was regularly engaged in bisexual orgies with men dress like Hobbits, you speak out your lip about my queen, my vegan pacificist left hook is going throw your jaw!!
Grata,
I read through this thread and debate up to your comment.
You mentioned benefits received by black men who marry white White Women because White Supremist/White Privilege structures/ideology etc. I think I get what you are saying there.
But, may I ask you something?
Have you considered the possibility of the unique strain that is experienced by people who marry across racial and ethnic lines. Aside from all the typical challenges of marriage (how to live together, manage money, in-laws, etc), it seems to me there is another dynamic altogether of dealing white family extended members now - not just coworkers that you can spend your weekends away from. And I have not even addressed the cultural minefield or raising bi-racial childre yet.
From my experience (and, yes, it is limited), black men (or women) who marry white will, in many cases, experience a whole different level of strain not experience in same race marriages.
I am negating your experiences or what you may have seen, but I am suggesting that "upgrading" to white or the "rubbing-off" of white privilege on black folks is not what it seems.
Excuse me, Grata.
Numerous typos in my first post. Sorry.
I meant to say, I am NOT negating your experiences or what you have seen...
Fly
"Uptown, why do assume that any sistah who will check your black ass is manless?"
Sistahs like you have a problem with a man checking YOU.
You seem to want somebody that you can yell at, boss around, and dominate.
All in the name of being this "STRONG" black woman.
Face it baby girl, most men of any hue find that very unattractive and are not going to deal with it.
You mentioned my wife, who is a Nubian queen.
We've been together happily for 22 years because she is my partner, my lover and my friend.
Not my castrater.
"Field,
O/T. Tell me it isn't so?
Your hometown paper, the Philadelphia Inquirer, has hired John Yoo to do a monthly column?"
Yes, it's so. And Kathy in West Philly, I feel your pain. :(
How much do you all want to bet that AB and uptownsteve are going to hook up one day? Is it just me, or is there some sort of sexual tension in the air between those two.:)
I'm already taken Field.
Plus AB plays for the other team.
"I'm already taken Field.
Plus AB plays for the other team."
Hey, stranger things have happened.:)
Sistas Alicia and Fly,
I see the baiting continues by UP Steve. If he can get a toe hold he will.
Flash back and you can see, he checked up on me and I'm a white chick! Because of that, he says "No wonder she's trying to run shit. LOL" His words, not mine. But, I didn't take the bait.
Y'all can go through everything I have written for the past week or two and you will see I am a sista. I wasn't raised to see color or gender because all of my "aunts" "uncles" and other friends and family members were colors of the rainbow and of all sexual orientations.
My point being, don't respond. My grandmother used to say "you can catch more flies with honey." Meaning, don't buy into the hate around you. You have a point; make it plain, make it strong and make it proud. But, say it sweetly or politely or PCish, without callig out names. I have seen that today both of you did that until the apple offered by the serpent.
Bottom line, we as women all bleed and feel the same, color is not the issue on that. Sexual orientation is not an issue when it comes to how WE are different!
I myself was excluded from one of the best men I ever knew, one of my class and education, but his black parents didn't think I was good enough. He didn't pick me because I was white. I didn't pick him because he was black. We fell in love because we had common interests, goals and family background.
However, because I was white, I was excluded from his upper middle class black family in the 1970's. There really was no "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner" from these folks back then. Blame them?: I don't. My memories will be there always. I am grateful that my mother welcomed him with open arms and kitchen!
On point, we've got a long battle of the races and genders ahead, but this is a good place to start. We can have common grounds, common goals and common respect for each other.
I think that we all have to be judged on merit alone and not on whom we chose to be with unless we are actually chosing someone due to some class or social expectations. I have always been comfortable in any situation I find myself in, including racial protests, war protests, or living in a Shanty Town in Kingston in the 1970's.
First, us girls gotta overcome!
Peace and respect, sistas!
Whitney B.
"2. Most my black friends who are dating or married to white folks weren't looking to marry outside their race -- it just happened, a la Jungle Fever and Something New. They were also all but ignored by Black folks of the opposite gender which brings me to..."
Interesting. Almost all the Black men I know with White women were in it for the novelty asn social climbing. Needless to say these relationships have either failed or are on the Brink. And this I have seen across 3 continents.
In Britain the motivation of these Black men is openly discussed and acknowledged. In America you find people justifying their actions and stretching their arguments in all sorts of directions.
In America the need to socially climb is even greater than elsewhere that you can't rule out the moivation.
Because the racism out here is at a different level, its almost undestandable why a BM would want to hang onto a WW to be acceptable.
Its not too long ago (and in some places still is) that the sight of a BM put people on high alert. However the sight of a Black man and a WW though not wholly acceptable makes the black man look approachable or less threatening. All these men may claim to not have consciously made that choice but the benefits of being with a WW are alot more than people are willing to accept. It could be subconscious driven.
I will give you a personal example. I had this European female friend who grew up i n Africa. She was totally oblivious of her white privilage in America when she got here. Everytime I stepped out with her I got better treatment from the same people that treated me poorly while I was by myself. And these were people of all races. With time she started to exploit her white privilage and her whiteness and started to feel more important than thou. I cut her loose.
Black men who date White women get this experience, they see the difference in the way people treat them when they are with a WW and when they are with a BW. They internally know this but won't admit to it. Instead they will claim that love comes in all colors blah blah blah.'
There are social benefits and they reap them. The down side is that they now find themselves rejected by Blacks. But that is a price they are willing to pay.
Are there some that genuinely love these WW for all the right reasons. Personally I haven't met one but wouldn't rule that out.
uptownsteve said...
You seem to want somebody that you can yell at, boss around, and dominate.
-----------------------------------
A man with a healthy dose of testosterone knows that there are soe sotuations where being domintaed by a woman is a great thing.
Like EnVogue once said, free your mind and surely your ass will follow.
All of this of angst over what some barely articulate rapper (dear God what is world is that) said about nothing.
Many of you probably can repeat verbatim the life and times of the semi-literate spouters of nonsense.
How many of you have even heard of, let alone know anything about, peope who have/had (some are not longer with us)
real talent arn are worthy of discussion. I'm so glad I am old enought to have learned something about real talent.
William Warfield
Martina Arroyo
Shirley Verrett
Robert McFerrin
Leontyne Price
Jessye Norman
Kathleen Battle
Grace Bumbry
Indra Thomas
Leon Mitchell
Roland Roland
Denyce Graves
Simon Estes
Paul Robeson
Billy Eckstine
Lew Rawls
Al Green
Andrea Dawson
Abbey Lincoln
Ann Peeble
Etta James
Betty Carter
Dionne Warrick
Ella Fitzgerald
Shirley Scott
Nat King Cole
Sarah Vaughan
The only thing I know about Mariah Carey is that she is a singer and that she HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THE BLACK COMMUNITY WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN WORDS.
Why don't you whinners follow lead or STFU.
"I am negating your experiences or what you may have seen, but I am suggesting that "upgrading" to white or the "rubbing-off" of white privilege on black folks is not what it seems."
Adam,
I asked an African Pastor/ marriage consellor once what he thought of interracial marriage. He put it nicely. He said that any two people even with in the same ethnic background come from two different cultures that will conflict in marriage. The more diverse the cultures, the more diverse the challenges.
So I am taking the interracial marriage challenges into account.
If a thorough study were to be done it would find that the tendency of Black men to marry white women is highest with Western Black men living in white societies.
WW in England lament that African men don't give them as much attention. Why do you think that is?
There is a correlation between a white supremist system and the tendency for the Black male in it to marry a WW.And its not hard to psychoanalyze why.
Like I mention in the previous post, there is a strong underlying need for the BM to be accepted in the main stream or to appear less threatening because of the racial dynamics in this society. Recently I heard that young Black school boys now have resorted to acting gay so they appear less threatening. I guess the process of dehumanization never ends. You are not fully accepted as a man unless you have a non Black woman. So could black men be completing their humanity by being with WW?
By the way this is not my speculation. I believe it was a speculation way back in the 60s by psychologists when they were trying to analyze the BM's need to mate with the WW.
Granted these may have been the racists of that era but judging how Blackwomanhood is presently being systematically destroyed, and white womanhood upheld, don't you think these psychologists were onto something?
There are many subconscious forces at play.
I swear, I am not exaggerating when I say that every Black male I know or have encountered who dates or married white had a social climbing complex. I I personally know 3 very tragic cases.
The worst part is, most WW know that they hold the humanity of this men in their hands.
I have had one openly admit how her husband is more of a person in society because of her. That is the point at which an African man would balk.
If I ever meet a genuine couple, I will be sure to share the news.
Iknow people keep saying that the same can be said for the BW/WM couples. Not so. Though some psychologists of that era too speculated that the WM in that position has such a low sense of self to be with a BW. Maybe there is some truth to that too.
WM in this society are stepping down when they go with BW, and that is why many don't. That is why when you meet such couples they tend to be more convincing as more genuine than the opposite.
Also some people forget, the man is the pursuer most of the time, so for a WM to pursue a BW, its a different dynamic from BM pursuing WW. The two can not be equated.
"He didn't pick me because I was white."
Whitney, no harm... but how do you know that? Don't you think it could have intrigued him to some level? It's just that I get concerned when I hear people say colorblind things like that.
"First, us girls gotta overcome!Does that apply to being in loving and healthy relationships? You know, (not saying you) I was wondering, would even the most liberal of white women really want black women to "overcome" in the male/female interracial relationship rankings? I mean really? Would things seem so fair and colorblind then?
Grata 10:17 and 10:52 that was well said. You are on a roll. You have my brain jumping, how will I get back to sleep now? I have so much to say, but it's after 2 in the morning for me :)
I too know better.
Field said, "How much do you all want to bet that AB and uptownsteve are going to hook up one day? Is it just me, or is there some sort of sexual tension in the air between those two.:)"
Field, I noticed US and AB were attracted to each other a while ago. Here's one comment I made in your post about those two crazy Muhs:
"US, we all know you and ab are in love. Nobody in their right mind would engage in off-topic dumb conversations unless they really were attracted to each other. Best of luck to you both.
Alicia, take your meds!"
Anon 11:19 PM
How much do you all want to bet that AB and uptownsteve are going to hook up one day? Is it just me, or is there some sort of sexual tension in the air between those two.AB is one of those dykes who loves cock.
fn and us:
millions of homos will never be with any hets
the ending to "she hate me" is a heterosexist fantasy...i adore spike lee but he is an admitted sexist and colorist...
if i were het, i would never go for the insecure sexist fragile controlling types like
us, but i would be all over blair underwood!...smile
blair is my carnally ideal man...
but i am not bi...so i would slay him to get to janet jackson/gabrielle union/pam grier etc...
i also adore my queen and i am hopelessly monogamous...so
i plan to be with only her forever ...
as hets are obsessed with gay sex they think we all can be sexually seduced by anyone...most hets completely ignore gay love
they forget that we homos truly love each other just as deeply as they do...
if i could never sexually touch my quuen again, i would still adore only her....
peace
ab
wb and lac!
wow
2 of the bests posts i have ever read herein...
true love is indeed colorless and genderless...
i always shake haters off...
but i slways slay them first
peace
ab
grata
ditto
to each their own
true love is rare a gift wherever one finds it
and i have many het/gayfriends who married interracially who admit it is an act of healing
ie a gorgeous black male who was made to feel dark and ugly by colorist bfs in the south
many blacks who were wounded by toxic black lives and wed whites to escape their traumas about ghettos etc
bgm who feel that bm are too closeted and sexually insecure, sexist and abusive about certain sexual acts...so they date wm
many blacks just wounded by racism who crave at least one white human to love them...
healing is always personal and powerful...
lonely people just tired of being ignored or dissed by peope who look like them etc...
like gays, interracial unions are never going to disappear...
so we all better get over it
see more on this:
http://www.geocities.com/ambwww/blacklove.htm
peace
ab
anon
you are a vulgar fool
that is a lie...but were that the case
you wish it were so?
so you can direct me to someone with one unlike you?
fyi
they have stores full of replicas that are far better than your tiny pre-ejaculating diseased organ...that stay hard and never lie/infect/cheat etc...
fyi
ab
Tired of hypocrits, you forgot
Johnny Hartman
Shirley Horn
Joe Williams
anon:
even your lewd behavior herein is typical of a premature ejaculator
you piggyback on fn and us as they were the foreplay...then after they do all the work.. you interject your meaningless little semi-punches as intellectual anti-climaxes...
spare us all
ab
Alicia, all your posts about colorless love are contridicting. Get Meds.
TiredofHyprocrits:
Harry Bellefonte
Marian Anderson
Lena Horne
Josephine Baker
Otis Redding
Aaron Neville
Billie Holiday
Harry Bellefonte
Bessie Smith
Ray Charles
Mahalia Jackson
Jimi Hendrix
Stevie Wonder
Many more blues artists, too numerous to mention.
One of the greatest poets of the 20th century:
Langston Hughes
Great list of names, thanks! I, too, am glad that I am of an age to remember some really great talent.
Anonymous,
Whose in love with AB?
La♥Macs
"He didn't pick me because I was white" "How do you know....?"
I never got a hint of him dating me because of my color. I knew many of his friends and co-workers, just as he knew mine (same social circle set) and never got any funny impressions from them either. We weren't treated any differently when apart or together (let me put it that I wasn't at any rate).
All of us homies were a mixed set of sexual and ethnic backgrounds of a certain economic scale (upper income left wingers).
So, to answer your question, I dunno for sure. Nothing's ever 100% certain except for death.
Tired of Hypocrites
"All of this of angst over what some barely articulate rapper (dear God what is world is that) said about nothing.
Many of you probably can repeat verbatim the life and times of the semi-literate spouters of nonsense."
You do realize that the same things you're saying about rappers is the same thing musical snobs said about blues, bebop and rock-n-roll.
I remember when I was in college in the early 80s if you played a reggae tune, most American blacks would have said "turn that bull$hit off!"
My personal tastes lean more toward classic jazz and hard bop.
Miles Davis, Charles Mingus, Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Art Blakey and MJQ.
However there are some very nice and creative hip hoppers out there like Nappy Roots, Digible Planets, and the aforementioned Talib Kweli.
Like any other art form the weakest shyt is eaten up by the largest audience.
Thus you have Eminem and 50 cent.
My tastes tend more toward classic ja
ditto us:
many cool people who love their moms and women make conscious rap
x-clan
hard knocks
will villanova
common
etc
peace
ab
and see a list of many more cool rainbow rebel musicians here:
http://www.geocities.com/ambwww/diallosongs.htm
peace
ab
ab
The weird is that hip hop (according to the media) has devolved into gangsterism and misgynism and of course much of the most marketed and commercial aspects of it are.
But I grew up in the West Bronx where hiphop was born.
I was watching Grandmaster Flash and the Cold Crush Brothers have MC and turntable battles in Highbridge Park as early as 1976.
Hiphop was created for and by inner city minority kids who were bored with the disco craze that was being pushed by record companies and radio stations in the late 70s.
So they created their own art form.
Cutting and splicing parts of various records (drum solos, bass runs, sax breaks) into one collage.
Rapping over beats came later but it was very fresh and creative in the beginning.
UT Steve and AB,
Hiphop in its day was most excellent and very enjoyable, as was rapping. But, now, look at the lack of good solid grade school and high school education that kids face today. I feel lack of serious talent has to do with the dumbing down of Amuckera and the 24/7 stuff (S**T) the FOX Noise and CNNumbing call "news".
People don't read books anymore or write letters or essays or poetry or anything. We don't draw anymore. We basically don't play anymore. All the things that the we (I am assuming here) grew up doing.
Instead there're PC's, iPods, wii's (or however that's spelled), etc. No getting out and smelling street smells, lakes, the ocean, the countryside, etc. So, the imagination is stifled, maybe crippled for life. Sad.
Growing up in Chicago afforded me a rich diverse background and a microcosm of the world. Filled with trips to museums, visits to libraries, classical concerts, theater, neighborhood bars playing folk, jazz and blues, ethnic restaurants, crazy beatnik parties, etc. Not to mention my grandmother who had money and a great job so she took me all of the country with her.
I don't long for a lot of the good old days, but I am one to take a break on the weekends and turn my computer, cell phone and telephone off (I've never been one to watch too much TV) and smell the smells, read some books and get out and see what I can see.
Peace and bop bop,
Whit
Whitney,
I'm not trying to be funny but you're just getting old. Like me.
I'm 48.
We always long for the good ol days of our youth and think that it was a better, safer, sweeter time.
After arguing with my 21 year old son about how screwed up and uncultured todays youth are, he promptly showed me FBI stats which proved that there was actually more homicides and street violence in America in 1977 than there was in 2007.
True.
us and wb:
ditto!!
i am 45...and i recall the cool birth of hip hop...the afro politics...one love...soul rebels
i miss how i never heard any of the bros call me a b or a ho etc...
i miss the original days of hip hop...when hits had great positive afro videos...long before it became gangsta driven/bling/xxx/pimping syncopated genocide...
peace
ab
UTSteve,
70's were pretty turbulent times, time of Tricky Dicky and Marshall Order, etc, much like today.
Amazing stat though.
I will be 55 next month. Eeegads, as us white folks are credited for saying. Least I'll be able to cop some ole folks discounts.
AB,
Yikes! You are joking about missing being called a b or ho, right? Besides, you've been called worse things here (laughing out loud!).
I don't do texting or email abbrv's as you all might have noticed. I do like btw, though.
btw, isn't this nice?
btw, I gotta get some work done!
Cheers and peace, friends!
Whit
wb:
i am a warrior...
i can handle all slurs herein and anywhere else at anytime...
but it was just nice not to have to on the radio etc. once...
peace
ab
"Decent" lyricist? Ouch. Eminem has solidified his respect in the Hip-Hop world by being one of the *illest* freestyle rhymers to ever walk God's Green Earth. Any of the MCs Field listed would co-sign that sentiment. And that's why Nick's little butthurt PR stunt will go nowhere.
I remember those old racist songs Em made. They sounded like he recorded them on a boom box when he was 12. Em apologized for it, repeatedly, in written, spoken, and song form.
Sorry Nick, but unless you cut a fat check to Sharpton, you're on your own on this one. Does anyone honestly think him and Mariah will still be married 5 years from now?
Grata,
I appreciate your response and reflections. It gives some things to think about.
I am 34 year old white man married (happily) nearly 14 years to a woman of color. We have three beautiful children.
In recent years, my home has become somewhat of a respite for mixed couples who experience the social displacement between the black and white communities (and white and Hispanic communities).
I am finding similarities in the stories told, but also some exceptions.
(For the record, I believe with my whole heart that black women are smashingly beautiful.)
Blessings,
Adam
"(For the record, I believe with my whole heart that black women are smashingly beautiful.)
Blessings,
Adam"
Adam, I co-sign 100%!
And folks, as an old head who grew up around "dance hall" music, I can honestly say that I can appreciate good hip hop, and not the BS commercial crap that most record companies try to push on us.
BTW, I think my Coltrane collection rivals damn near everyone elses in these divided states.
"A Love Supreme"
I haven't gone a week in 30 years without listening to it.
Essential.
"You are on a roll. You have my brain jumping, how will I get back to sleep now? I have so much to say, but it's after 2 in the morning for me :)"
LOL! Keep the discipline.
"they forget that we homos truly love each other just as deeply as they do..."
AB,
True. I think its harder for heterosexuals to understand gay love than the other way round.
As for your break down of IR motivations, looking for White love to heal from racism, WTH? The sad part is that if that is your hidden motive, then you are in for serious dissappointment because sooner or later your partner will do something bordering on racist and all your hopes will be dashed.
I have had many white friend along the way and except for one very unique individual, all have done or said something racially questionable. Some are still my friends but some I just had to let go.
That individual with no racist bone is extremely rare.
"(For the record, I believe with my whole heart that black women are smashingly beautiful.)"
Adam,
This feels like a signal from extraterrestrial life forms. LOL!
I grew up in an environment where Black was beautiful and still is.
America turns that idea on its head. Its not a country for Black women. Black men, yes but not Black Women.
"(For the record, I believe with my whole heart that black women are smashingly beautiful.)"
Adam,
This feels like a signal from extraterrestrial life forms. LOL!
I grew up in an environment where Black was beautiful and still is.
America turns that idea on its head. Its not a country for Black women. Black men, yes but not Black Women.
As for the challenges of IR couples. The challenges are real. The failure rate of IR couples esp. BM/WW among Africans is probably over 90%. It the opposite with the reverse combinations.
I believe the challenges for IR couples are magnified if one is in it for the wrong reasons that are numerous especially with Blacks. If its the person you are genuinely interested in, not their skin color and what it represents the challenges waiting for you will be alot easier to manage.
I don't understand Black men who marry interracially and still expect to be accepted by their community. Its ridiculous. Society will probably never be that color blind as long as inequalities exist. The Black community has not reached that level of individualism common in Western society. There are still expectations of the Black Male to help build the community and by marrying a WW, many of whom can't meet the Black community's expectations, the men have clearly crossed the river.
The Black community needs its men to survive. The white community which goes by a strong culture of individualism, doesn't need their men in the viscinity as much.
So if these Blackmen adopt the white model of living, they should have no expectations whatsoever from the Black community for acceptance because they are no use to them. And since they are taking on the white model, they really have no right to use the race card. They should leave it to those that really need it. They should take the racism that comes to them on the chin and move on. They sound like whinners when busy reaping from the benefits of marrying whites and then falling back on their skin color when things don't go well.
So its clearly understandable why most of these people are rejected. Its best if they hang around like minded people.
Grata,
You stated:
"I believe the challenges for IR couples are magnified if one is in it for the wrong reasons that are numerous especially with Blacks. If its the person you are genuinely interested in, not their skin color and what it represents the challenges waiting for you will be alot easier to manage."
You nailed it!
You stated:
"I don't understand Black men who marry interracially and still expect to be accepted by their community. Its ridiculous."
This is complex, Grata.
When I stop to consider the men of color (black and Hispanic) who are close to me, I am not sure to how they would respond to some of your statements. I think I happen you know a few exceptions to the general cultural rules that you speak of.
Man alive, there is a lot in your remarks that we could unpack.
Anyhow, I am forced, yet again, to agree with you: It has been my experience that people color are less individualistic that their white European counterparts.
It is my own Christian faith and my relationships with people from various backgrounds that I have been able to "unlearn" the disease of "rugged individualism" that I have absorbed living in th west.
All the Best you,
Adam
WOW, is all I can say, I didn't think it was going that far
"When I stop to consider the men of color (black and Hispanic) who are close to me, I am not sure to how they would respond to some of your statements. I think I happen you know a few exceptions to the general cultural rules that you speak of."
I am sure they would be offended.
By the way just because someone marries out doesn't mean they still don't contribute to the community they grew up in. It just so happens that most Black men that marry out want to leave the community that has enabled them so far. That is why it is seen as selling out.
In traditional African socieites and I see abit of it in Black America too, women play a special role in maintaining the community. Men marry women that are capable of continuing that community caretaking role. A wife has an active role beyond the immediate family. That tramps looks and family background etc. I cannot see a white woman taking that role in a Black environment. If they could pull it off without being condescending and appearing as a savior, these couples would be more accepted in the Black community.
Its a classic case of a clash of cultures, individualistic, Vs quasi communal.
When a minority man chooses to marry a WW, they need to accept the loss of community support and stop complaining about being treated unfairly.
On the other hand BW in an individualist White enviroment tend to fair well because there are no expectations on them. And at the same time Black women nurturing the community is almost natural to them and so they are easily taken back into the Black Community because they are seen as useful.
Among most African cultures, I know its ok for a Woman to marry out because her children take on the identity of the father, so wherever she marries she is gone any way. Its not Ok for the man because if the woman is too foreign, then the clan's children will get culturally confused. A woman can marry a WM but a man cannot marry a WW, he is considered useless to the community if he does that.
That is how these societies have been maintained for thousands of years.
What is happening in Black America, if the trend of men marrying out continue to grow, we all know where that is heading...
So this Minority men should just suck it up.
All the best to you too.
all of them just need to sat down. It would be no less fair game if Mr. MiMi came out and put him on blast, call kim all kinds of white whore, sluts ect.. it would be no less fair that right about now Nick would say something about his daughter and piss poor excuse as a father but then knowing nick cannon i doubt he'd want to go for blows for fear of him damaging his respecive manicure.
Society and ignorant people will always try to dictate what another should/ or should not do. People need to mind their own fucking business and control the the one person that they can-their self!
If you find a kind, nice s/o good for you! I don't care if they're green your business is just that-yours!
Amen! Mariah has talent and is taking the higher road. Mariah is gifted and uses her gifts to give back to many great causes.
Eminem has no genius, what genius being a hater? He has been foolishly labeled as a "genius" and rewarded for attack many women as well as people who are easy pickens..
He attacks all disenfranchised people and women like a playground bully picks on the weak. That's not the behavior of a man, it is the behavior of a coward.
Tell it as it is Eminem is highly overrated and he lives in a gated community unlike the poor unenlightened people he is selling records to.
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