Thursday, January 31, 2008

How and why was she killed?


I have really been getting some incredible stories lately.

The latest comes from Lima Ohio, and it's just another case of a person of color getting a raw deal from the long hand of the law.
Check it out:

" LIMA, Ohio — The air of Southside is foul-smelling and thick, filled with fumes from an oil refinery and diesel smoke from a train yard, with talk of riot and recrimination, and with angry questions: Why is Tarika Wilson dead? Why did the police shoot her baby?


Residents of Lima, Ohio, posted a sign at the house where Ms. Wilson, 26, was killed and her 14-month-old son was injured.


'This thing just stinks to high heaven, and the police know it,” said Jason Upthegrove, president of the Lima chapter of the N.A.A.C.P. “We’re not asking for answers anymore. We’re demanding them.'


Some facts are known. A SWAT team arrived at Ms. Wilson’s rented house in the Southside neighborhood early in the evening of Jan. 4 to arrest her companion, Anthony Terry, on suspicion of drug dealing, said Greg Garlock, Lima’s police chief. Officers bashed in the front door and entered with guns drawn, said neighbors who saw the raid. Moments later, the police opened fire, killing Ms. Wilson, 26, and wounding her 14-month-old son, Sincere, Chief Garlock said. One officer involved in the raid, Sgt. Joseph Chavalia, a 31-year veteran, has been placed on paid administrative leave.


Beyond these scant certainties, there is mostly rumor and rage. The police refuse to give any account of the raid, pending an investigation by the Ohio attorney general.


Black people in Lima, from the poorest citizens to religious and business leaders, complain that rogue police officers regularly stop them without cause, point guns in their faces, curse them and physically abuse them. They say the shooting of Ms. Wilson is only the latest example of a long-running pattern of a few white police officers treating African-Americans as people to be feared.


'There is an evil in this town,' said C. M. Manley, 68, pastor of New Morning Star Missionary Baptist Church. “The police harass me. They harass my family. But they know that if something happens to me, people will burn down this town.”"



"There is a evil in this town." Yes Rev. it's called racism.

I want to thank my girl Nichole Wicks from Brave New Films for sending me this story.









104 comments:

jose said...

This sort of thing is so commonplace in NYC, we've almost become desensitized to it, especially under the Giuliani era, who let police kill everyone in sight, and paid them as little as possible to keep them hungry and murderous. they keep killing off our youth as if they're keenly aware they don't want to give us a future. Thanks for giving more ammo to be angry with.

vicdamonejr said...

This is extremely messed up. This is one of the real reasons black people do cry racism. I can't understand for the life of me, while reading this short brief of the story, HOW YOU COULD SHOOT A 14-month-old child. That makes no sense whatsoever, and I hope a judge and jury get to see this.

Christopher Chambers said...

You something Field...as I read this post I am watching some mush mouthed, sociopathic 18 year old young black men on "The First 48" who murdered someone during a "peace" football game...and others who killed a well-loved black basketball coach in another city.

I'm gonna channel a Nazi and say it's pieces of shit like that who make it easy, so easy for cops to kill a 14 year old child. And too often we hide or allow these scum to run wild, we don't snitch, etc. So yeah--as far as I'm concerned, these knuckleheads and the families, the babymammas, the activists, etc. who protect or explain them are just as culpable as these cops. I'm sorry Field. I'm really, really sorry for this opinion. But I hold it true and fierce...

MrsGrapevine said...

I don't want to draw conclusion before the facts are in, but there is a difference between blatant racism and racial profiling versus crisis. Cops are scared human beings that choose to uphold the law, and sometimes they are placed in extreme crisis where split decisions are made. It's either kill or be killed sometimes, and in the midst of the moment they don't think to take a minute to see if a comb is a gun or not, because that could leave to a worst case scenario. They give out orders and if those orders aren't followed they react. This I learned from a cop.

There is a difference between beating the mess out of a kid for resisting arrest and reacting to perceived danger.

I am not on the side of the cops, but I do believe we need more information. A cop is one of those jobs I would not do because people forget that you are human and make mistakes and in this line of duty mistakes come at a higher cost.

I certainly don't think it was the cops intent to harm a 14 month old baby. If the woman had a boyfriend dealing drugs in her house and around her child, I have some serious issues with that, because if it wasn't the cops it could have easily been someone else. There is a reason the cops came to that house with that much force.

I have known of a few drug dealers in my days, and cops don't just make random raids for petty dealing.

So before I get all NWA on the cops, I need more information of what went down.

Dragon Horse said...

"Tarika Wilson had six children, ages 8 to 1. They were fathered by five men, all of whom dealt drugs, said Darla Jennings, Ms. Wilson’s mother. But Ms. Wilson never took drugs nor allowed them to be sold from her house, said Tania Wilson, her sister."

What type of woman puts her kids in that type of danger??

This article is a lot of BS.

How do I know that. I was born in Lima and lived there until I was 12.


I grew up in the West Side off of Oakland PKWY, mostly white.

Never had any issues with the cops and none of my relatives (to my knowledge) have ever had any runs ins with the cops.

I remember when I was 8, some ghetto thug broke in my grandfather's house, because everyone knew he kept money in the house (didn't trust banks like a lot of people who lived through the depression) my grandfather caught the full and put some buckshots in his butt.

I remember the chief of police came to his house to see if he was okay (and old white man) because he and my grandfather were friends and had known each other for 30 years.

Here's the deal. Most blacks (about 60%) live on the Southside, always have since they came from "down south". They came to work for Ford, GM, oil refinery (standard oil at the time, then BP, now some Canadian company).

In the 1980's most manufacturing jobs moved to the South, the Mexico, then China. Lima was a union town, that is one reason they left. There is some jobs left but seriously cut back.

In the 1980's (before I moved with my fam to Chicago) a lot of Detroit gang negroes brought crack in.

At the same time the town shunk by almost 50%...when I was a kid the town was close to 70K people now it is less than 40K because the young people left to find more opportunities, that includes blacks.

The ones who are left are hillbillies (as we used to call them), farmers, older white folks (often retired), older black folks, and a lot of ghetto thug negros, now we also have a lot of illegal immigrant farm laborers coming in. Drugs are still big.

Lima does not have a history of police brutality that is a lie. I recent that some folks are straight up lying the NY Times. Rev. Manley...pleaase. Who is that negro. He has no following.

The biggest black churches in LIMA have always been 4th Street Church and 2nd Baptist. You also got my cousin Romie Felds church out on the East Side I believe (they moved it since I was last home) he is Presbyterian.

I grew up Catholic, one of two black Catholic families in town but I know where the black go to church cause some of my fam is protestant (most of them actually).

Manely ain't got nothing on them and ain't no negroes going to burn down anything and no cops are after him, he is a damn lie.

Don' believe everything you read...

Dragon Horse said...

I should qualify my statement about what type of mother.

First off you have to ask yourself why is a woman that young allowing herself to get knocked up by ghetto thug negroes who are poisoning their community almost every year for 8 years!

What type of woman allows her children to be around such men.

We know that bullets don't have names on them and their have been drive bys in Lima.

In fact, one of my dumber 2nd cousins got shot in the damn face out on those streets trying to be the "man" and when all said and done he was not even the target!!! They were after his boy but thought he looked like him and they sold on the same street.

So I know Lima pretty well, go back once every 1.5 years.

Police make mistakes and they may have got overzealous but until I see more evidence I'm sorry not buying it. I called my grandmother about this tonight and guess what she said...

"well you know how those negros out South act...if the police don't get them they just kill each other, shameful...they need to be in church...feel sorry for those babies though, that woman ain't got no business with no kids!"

That's grandma Dragon. :-)

Keep it real gram!

Leota2 said...

Cops DO make " random "raids. Sadly and illegally. Been there, seen that. I live in the lovely state of Ohio and I could tell stories that would curl--or straighten anyone's hair.

Funny how when an African American child is shot--a baby even-- you just don't hear the shock you would if it was a missing blond woman or a white child! (which are both reprehensible, but always out-shadow any death in the black community.) A baby was shot!!!! The cops won't talk, no one has said anything about the woman having a gun . . . .

And we know for a fact the baby wasn't dealing drugs (but I'll bet he was scary as hell mrsgapevine.)

Ahh Ohio---home crap, home . . . .

field negro said...

"Cops are scared human beings that choose to uphold the law, and sometimes they are placed in extreme crisis where split decisions are made. It's either kill or be killed sometimes, and in the midst of the moment they don't think to take a minute to see if a comb is a gun or not, because that could leave to a worst case scenario."

mrsgrapevine, that's a good point. I know and work with quite a few of Philly's finest, so I don't need a lecture from anyone on what cops have to go through or what the police culture is like. It's a tough job!

But before we go blaming the person that's dead(like dragon horse AKA black Lou Dobbs seems to be doing) let's see where the facts lead shall we? Given this countries history, the burden is on them to prove it wasn't what I think it is.

I don't care if she had 10 kids by ten men. And I don't care how many drug dealers are in Lima, Ohio. There is such a thing as doing a job right, and if these cops didn't follow the proper procedures in the course of doing their job they should be called on it. Someone lost their life. That shit means something to me.

Let's stop marganalizing people and placing a lessor value on their lives just because of where they live or how poor they happen to be.

"The ones who are left are hillbillies (as we used to call them), farmers, older white folks (often retired), older black folks, and a lot of ghetto thug negros, now we also have a lot of illegal immigrant farm laborers coming in. Drugs are still big."

dragon horse, did you say you belong to a church?(Catholic)

Folks like you who make me glad to be an agnostic.

jp said...

I read this when it ran in the Grey Lady a couple days ago. The problem here is I see is drug war. Legalize it and treat it as the medical/social issue it is. Didn't we learn this lesson with prohibition? People will take any chemical to feel good, and their always will be class of people willing to provide it them. In the 20s it was Al Capone and co., today its Papi the Columbian and his stupid street weight dealers. Instead of keeping people safe on the streets, police spend money raiding houses so people can stop getting high. Fuck that, go raid Britney or Heath Ledger dealer. The war and the unintended byproducts of it have become more harmful to the community that the drugs themselves. We've wasted too much money locking people up over this shit.

jp said...

I co-sign Dragon point about 6 kids, with 5 dudes. It's 2008, get a script for birth control and you probably need making dudes strap on the trojans. Black parents need to be realistic and start putting this girls on the pill soon after they hit puberty like a lot of the middle-class white folks do.

ruffian96 said...

Regardless of the state of racial issues in Ohio, it is saddening that a 14 month old baby had to pay the price for anything.

field negro said...

jp co-sign with you about the self responsibility issue among black folks (I must have blogged about it a hundred times). But again, if (and please note I say IF), the police did not act properly, they have to be held accountable. I don't care how many damn kids she had.

jp said...

No doubt Field. Dead 14 month old children are a waste of potential human potential. Police should definately be held accountable for racism, poor decisions and questionable tactics. Reading this made me think of poor
Albert Spurill. At the same time we need to do a better job with the responsibility aspect and making sure who we lie and keep company with share our values. We have to get better and America has to get better.

NSangoma said...

~
Dead 14 month old children are a waste of potential human potential.

Did the child die of its wound? When I read the story several days ago, the child was only wounded.

In my youth I ran into a lot of gals like this, 'you don't have to use no rubber own me, I ain't nastidy.'

Hmmm, it seems that the Wilson sisters have last names that differ from the last name of their mother, Jennings, and the last name of their brother, Austin.

field, am I to understand that you are an attorney, the scion of an affluent upper middle-class Negroe family.

Negroes similar to these type of Negroes keep you in bidness field?

Five different baby daddies, a potential there for another 5 Mychal Bells, huh field?
`

brotherkomrade said...

[Brotherkomrade - waking out of his near-death bout of walking pneumonia and his fourth stomach virus]

FN, I want NSangoma's IP addy now. I'm sick of mf's cowardly existance.
This POS is worse than Cobb, Afronerd and Kitty - that says a lot.

You just know this POS is white.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

The question noone seems to be asking is why the fuck is a heavily armed SWAT team serving an arrest warrant on some punk-ass bottom level dope dealer?

Did they think this guy was fuckin' Tony Montana?

A SWAT team is essentially a reinforced light-infantry squad; complete with grenades (flash bangs and smoke, thank God they haven't started issuing frags to the fuckers yet) and assault rifles (M-4 carbines for some, M-16s at the least).

I second every thing JP said above about the clearly failed War On (Some) Drugs (which is a very successful War On Black people, but I digress), but have we become so desensitized that we don't recognize military tactics for what they are?

Back in my day we hated on "country-ass Negroes," and now folks like Nsangoma like to hate on "ghetto-ass Negroes," but that's just a way of distancing ourselves from what "them." People with no records and no evidence of criminal histories have been raided by these para-military forces; people have been killed by so-called SWAT teams executing these "no-knock" warrants. Killed because some asshole in a blue uniform couldn't read a damn house number; couldn't be bothered to verify that the target actually lived in the house, couldn't be bothered to give a flying fuck about the lives of black people.

Renko (an ABM, gyot-dammit, and with good reason)

Christopher said...

Don't expect any legal remedy for this young woman's shooting either.

It seems impossible to assemble a jury willing to convict a cop or cops of wrong doing.

I read about a case in Austin, TX of one officer Ramirez who responded to a call from a woman who said someone tried to break into her apartment. When he got there, officer Ramirez raped the woman. A Grand Jury found sufficient evidence to refer the case to trial but the jury refused to convicted officer Ramirez.

Cops in Murika are free to rape, beatup, and steal like common criminals and nothing ever happens to them.

From blackagendareport.com, a link to 2008's ten worst places to be black in the USA.

http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=515&Itemid=1

My hyperlinks never work so you'll have to copy and paste it in your address window. It's an eye opener.

Christopher said...

Let me try it again.

http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option
=com_content&task=view&id=515&Itemid=1

Jody said...

I find the reaction to the killing of this woman to be deeply disturbing. I agree with Field, how many babies she had with how many daddies is irrelevant! Making bad personal life choices is NOT a capital offense! It does not excuse being shot to death! Now her 8 children are motherless, and that is a tragedy that needs answers. I too, live in Philly where too many young, black men are dying by gun violence.... but at least I have the presence of mind to know that MOST folks are not dealing drugs, not shooting each other, and do NOT find it acceptable for the police of my community to go around shooting first and asking questions later. No ones life is so easily dismissable... we all have our gifts and flaws... please remember this woman did not deserve to be gunned down.
from a cranky, middle aged white lady.

Dragon Horse said...

Jody:
it is obvious her 8 kids didn't have a mother who gave a damn to begin with so they were always motherless.

As I said...what kind of mother puts her children in a situation where they are in constant contact with dangerous felons?

Is that a good mother? If didn't have to be the police it could have been one of his boys or his distributor angry he smoked his supply or tried to cheat him.

You are focused on the cops making a mistake, I'm focused on why in the world was the woman putting her kids and herself in a situation like that to begin with that has so many scenarios for death.

What if her kids got in her boyfriends or other babies daddy's stash and ate it, snorted it, etc?

Nsangoma and I have our differences at Booker Rising but he is often dead on when it comes to these low lifes.

Here is my thing. If the cops were found to be negligent then they should be charged but in a situation like this it is going to be hard to prove that.

My main point was that they got these low life negroes up in NY Times putting down my hometown Lima (not like Peru like the bean) as some haven of racists who prey on innocent black folks. THAT IS A LIE. The town is not that big and I know every area of it.

East Side -Hillbillie Heaven

Southside - Ghetto/rust belt

Westside - mostly white working class/middle class/successful blacks

North Side – working class whites and blacks

Outskirts – rural whites, usually okay people in my experience

These NY Times scum bags run up in the town and talk to some morons who are likely convicted felons and some stupid minister who has no following (but trying to use this situation to fill up his church)…that is foul.

aka lynn said...

The question should remain, why did Tara Wilson place herself and her children in that type of danger chosing relationships with drug dealers.

Jody said...

Dragon horse:
I can appreciate be pissed when ones hometown is dissed in the media... I am originally from friggin Texas! Enough said.
However, I also know that life is more complicated than to simply dismiss this young woman based on some "facts" about her life. I know, for example, that on paper, there are folks who look dangerous, but in reality are not... and I KNOW there are plenty of folks who look good on paper, but I sure as hell wouldnt want to hang with them....
My POINT is not about the police behavior, it is that this woman is friggin DEAD. Even if I agreed she is a horrible mother (which I do not know. I did not know her and neither did you), she may have deserved to have her kids removed from her home... but not a death sentence. Even the police are saying she was NOT the subject of their investigation. AND, they were executing a warrant on intelligence gathered that the dude would be there. Which means, they KNEW there were children there. Her family said she took care of her kids. Her sister said she did not allow the drugs in her home. Many a young woman has made very poor decisions in searching out validation they are lovable..... this should not be a death sentence.
My point is that in my eyes, this woman was a child of god.... as long as she had breath, she was redeemable.... and it breaks my heart that we have become a society that has lost the value of the sacredness of her life... which in reality diminishes us more than her.
One thing I want to ask, based on this article, what about the boyfriend? Was he even there? Was he arrested? Did they find drugs in the house? Conspicuously missing from the accounts. Usually cops fall all over themselves telling us about all the bad stuff and people they found in raids gone bad... that is missing from this tale.... I wanna know why, which in my opinion makes this even more suspect.
Jody

Cami B said...

Whenever there's not enough information provided there is a lot of room left to speculate on what actually happened to lead up to this point. One thing for sure is that this woman did not deserve to be gunned down like an animal and neither did that precious baby. Yes, she made some bad choices. Yes she was too young to have all those babies and by so many different losers. But I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I grew up in a family where some of my cousins dated drug dealers and glorified that lifestyle. So needless to say their daughters adapted that attitude when it came to picking men. They saw their mothers taking trips and going on shopping sprees, driving nice cars, living in nice houses due to dealing with men who sold drugs so they thought that ish was cute. Then, in the era I grew up in when No Limit was hot and you had Master P and his crew glorifying that stuff all my high school friends wanted to date drug dealers. So I'm going to wager, due to her age and her apparent lack of good judgement, she may have been subjected to that mentality. She is an 80's baby like me so she grew up mostly in the 90's when all this stuff was really popping. But the difference is some of us learned the hard way that drug dealers are losers, and some of us learned before we got caught up in some mess. Some of us still haven't learned because if that's all you see, and all you know then that's what you're going to choose and attract. And not to mention the fact that she may have had low self esteem which most certainly could have added to her already bad judgement when it came to men and having "keep a man babies" to no avail. I have 4 female cousins who have a bunch of kids by a bunch of men. Two of them learned their lessons and are now making better choices, getting their lives together, working going to school ect. And the other 2 have been used and abused so long they've been turned out....which is a whole 'nother issue. (Turned out meaning, are now living as lesbians). But anyway, sorry for the long post but my point is, lets give this young lady the benefit of the doubt and say that she probably did the best she could with what she knew. Not to excuse the fact that her bad choices have ended in her 8 children being motherless. But to say that she was human, she made mistakes but she didn't deserve to be gunned down like an animal.

field negro said...

Brother komrade,I hope you feel better glad to see you are up and posting again.

I co-sign with Ivan and Jody.This incident and the reaction to it from folks like dragon horse,speaks to some deeper issues going on here.

Should she have been more responsible as a.parent and as a citizen?Of course she should? But the folks in law enforcement have an equal resposibility to be professional to the people they are paid to protect.

damien said...

Why do we have to prove anything... she was a citizen of this country and state. Shouldn't the burden of proof be on the police and not on her. She wasn't the suspect!

-=Topper=- said...

I would have to assume that Dragon horse is white. It is rather an easy assumption considering what he has said here.

White people can't even fathom how and why these things happen, and can't even look at themselves as a VERY MAJOR CAUSE.

-=t=-

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

You are focused on the cops making a mistake, I'm focused on why in the world was the woman putting her kids and herself in a situation like that to begin with that has so many scenarios for death.

And you are focusing on the men and not on the indefensable policy. If paramilitary tactics weren't a regular feature of the War On (Some)Drugs, this young woman would not have gotten shot; and the cop's "mistake" could not have happened.

Here is my thing. If the cops were found to be negligent then they should be charged but in a situation like this it is going to be hard to prove that.

The cops will NEVER fucking be found negligent, because THEY ARE FOLLOWING THE POLICY.

Got that? IT'S THE POLICY. Change the policy, young mothers don't get shot by infantrymen in blue.

No amount of blaming the victim (and that is PRECISELY what you're doing here) will change the fact that a human being was killed by government officials because as a a matter of policy they use paramilitary methods to arrest garden-variety alleged criminals.

Jumpin' jebus on a pogo stick.

Renko

dc_speaks said...

nice to see another ohioan leota2. The fact that she may have been a mother that made some bad choies about the company she kept never justifies loss of life.

If the suspect was a male, then the first course of action for the police should have been to get her and any other "innocents" to safety before the breach or immediately one a breach had been made.

Ohio cops have it fucked up. Not all, but a lot of these smaller towns had been getting away with "literal murder" for years.

and as for the actual city of Lima, I know a blind, black girl that was traveling with friends back to Columbus OH through Lima after leaving a college party, their car was stopped...and my friend(a backseat passenger) was given a ticket for public intoxication. The driver who had not been drinking and had a valid DL and insurance was detained for about 1 hour while they searched the car.

The family sued and the charges were dropped. It didn't stop them from taking her to jail and charging her though in the first place.

Should she have been drunk? who cares. obviously she couldn't drive the fuckin car.

I know I shouldn't have come to your blog today. It pissed me the fuck off!!!

Thanks, Field!!!

west coast story said...

"Tarika Wilson had six children, ages 8 to 1.
They were fathered by five men, all of whom dealt drugs, said Darla Jennings, Ms. Wilson’s mother. But Ms. Wilson never took drugs nor allowed them to be sold from her house, said Tania Wilson, her sister."

I got this far and stopped reading. She lived with a drug dealer, had babies with drug dealers. This could have easily been a 14-month child who who was shot in a drive-by by drug dealers.

The cops have much to answer for here for shooting a child. But anyone who believes this woman did not take drugs, or believes she was a good mother by putting her kids in harm's way every second of her kids' lives, is delusional. In my neighborhood, it's often the moms who run the drug operations and use their kids to stand on corners or act as lookouts.

This just makes me sick to my stomach. What will happen to those children? My god.

I'm with dragon horse. These kids didn't have a mother before she died. I'm struck by how important is for black people not to hold each other accountable. Always the victim. This woman's life was a complete mess. It's tragic how she died but not any more tragic than how she lived.

Dani said...

The only way there would be any real accountability by law enforcement in a case such as this is if Tarika were named Ashley and she were white. Extra press coverage if her hair color were blonde.

Then the story would be in the mainstream- even Larry King would cover it!

MrsGrapevine said...

@ Field Negro:

I agree if the cops did not do the correct thing, then they should be called on it. That is my point, we don't know what happened and there's a lot of speculation. We assumed the cops were wrong because of history and not because of facts, and sorry being a mother and once being a part of "lifestyle" for lack of better word, I do have concern about a mother who puts her kids in danger, and not just one kid, but several. I know, "don't attack the victim", but at the same time, I can't turn a blind eye either.

Sorry:( - I wasn't lecturing you in particular on cops, I'm pretty sure you are a well informed individual, I was putting in out there for public knowledge because I was once unaware of the pressures of being a cop, until I ask a cop I respected a lot.


Last, I do not want it to sound like I'm not concerned about the 14 month old child, that's my main concern. I'm sad the toddler was shot, and I'm also sad the toddler was born into that circumstance. All I do care about is the 14 month old form two different perspectives. I have a 9 month old and a 3 year old, so I understand loss.

damien said...

So, West Coast Story... tis better to be killed by the police than by drug-dealers?
It's very funny/sad/pathetic how whites talk about accountability.

True, we are the victims. When the status quo stop victimizing us then we'll stop speaking from the standpoint of the victim. Understand?
Plus, you don't know what that woman's life was like... Try walk'n a mile in her/our shoes before you get to judging.
I will not condone any behavior that places a child at risk, I must say that people do what they can... some do things better than others... we all make mistakes, some of us moreso than others but coming from where I'm from it's systematical/generational (like what topper was say'n)... there are deeper issues in this and many situations that call for a real hard look at where we are as a country and why we as blacks find ourselves faced with such circumstances, which are not all our own. If this was a perfect world everyone would be Grade A parents and no one would make mistakes or everyone would learn from those mistakes. Sorry to have to break it to whomever... This is not a perfect world.
People do what they perceive is the best way to cope or get out of the situations they are in. Not all of us succeed in this venture yet when tragedy strikes we can't dismiss their life cuz of these things. Cuz, in that case we should all be dead... we are all dying anyway!! DAMMIT!

MrsGrapevine said...

@ Leota2:

Now you know I don't think the baby was packing, and you know that's not even close to my point...

Leota2 said...

What continues to astound me about some posting here is that THE DEAD WOMAN is being vilified because she had too many kids (maybe irresponsible, but not having an baring on the situation at hand.)

Will someone prove that there were drugs in the house? Will someone prove that the drug dealer was in the house? Why was the child shot?
Why is it so easy to judge this dead woman? And do drugs-- anywhere automatically justify a shooting? What do any of you know about her except she had too many kids and the cops killed her and shot her baby?

And thank you Renko for some much needed common sense. This did not have to happen. How hard was it for the cops to find out that a lot of children lived in the damned house.
Are all of you who are whining about this woman's sex life saying we shouldn't hold law enforcement up to ANY standards at all? Aren't they supposed to be thinking-- and keeping the public safe?
Even small black children. . .

I'm with dc --this post has truly pissed me off. . .

---Going for a walk in the Ohio ice . . .

Villager said...

Thanx for sharing this story. I pass by Lima everytime I travel to Detroit to visit with my oldest daughter. Actually, I got a speeding ticket there a few years back. I guess I should count my blessings that it was the Ohio State Highway Patrol and not the Lima PD that pulled me over...

peace, Villager

field negro said...

Yes west coas how she lived and died was tragic,but was her death justified? Ask yourselves that. Ivan is right,f****d up policies cause f****d up results.

I listen to folks from Ohio like dc-speaks and not dragon horse.Some folks have there thinking grounded in reality,and some don't.

Sorry for all the type o's in my comments,I am on my blakberry and my fingers are too big for these damn
keys.

Mrsgrapevine, I undestand where you are coming from, I didn't want it to seem lile I was snapping at you. I am sure you have empathy for that child as well.Hell,you are a parent and I am sure a fine one. Fortunately,your children will have a chance.The kids who are born to mothers like this sadly will not.

Yes villager sometimes troopers are best:)

Billy said...

I frequent a forum where a guy posts a regular series of these sorts of cases (meaning police and especially SWAT team abuse, not racism, although since the victims are almost always black it's hard to tell the difference). He comes up with almost one a week. Every time people come out to apologize for cops with the arguments you see in these comments--either the victim was asking for it, or there must be facts we don't know that explain everything. I used to think this was a reflection of subconscious racism, but I'm starting to think it's both more and less than that. Comfortable middle class Americans--of either color--just can't and don't want to believe that legal system could be so broken as to routinely allow these abuses. Surely, not in America. Throw in a blatantly manufactured war and a government that literally claims that laws don't apply to them, and it's not surprising to see denial on such a massive scale.

It's still sad, though.

west coast story said...

My reality is what I see all around me. Maybe the drug world is different in
Philly, and in Ohio but I know how it works in my neighborhood.

This woman did not deserve to be shot to death by a cop. But her children did not deserve to be subjected to a daily life of danger and heaven only knows what else. What exactly do you think happens to kids who grow up like this? She was unfit parent. Period.

Furthermore, birth control is practically free at Planned Parenthood if you don't have money. There is no BLOODY excuse for any woman to be this irresponsible.

Calling this a question of "everyone makes mistakes" is simply outrageous.

In the 17 years or so I've been doing neighborhood organizing around crime and blight, I am forever AMAZED at how black people would rather bury their head where the sun don't shine than to keep from facing the reality of what goes on in our community and who is responsible. Black folks are the perfect enablers because we REFUSE to hold other black people accountable.

But that attitude is changing. It's changing in the 'hood and the black middle class is finally waking up from its guilt induced coma about black crime and violence.

In Oakland, it took the murder of a black journalist doing a story about a black criminal enterprise for a lot of black people to be finally, righteously, outraged by black on black crime. It was about damn time.

Any black woman (or man) who subjects their kids to a life with a drug dealer is commiting the ultimate violence against black people, their own children.

Kathy said...

I find it incredible that nothing was done to protect the six children from harm. The police had conducted a long term investigation, there were toys outside the house, and a stun grenade was used outside the house because they knew that there were children in the house, according to the reports that I have read.
According to the Lima Police website, the SWAT team is highly trained and one of their duties is to raid "crack houses". Yet, they already have another unit, I think it's called PACE to handle drug crimes.

damien said...

@ West Coast

First of all, I must say that I am not disagreeing with you on the subject of accountability and responsibility. Nor, am I excusing her choices in life.
but to make an analogy about how the children are growing up in her household will turn out is missing the point that one day she was a child also... and learned habits/behaviors are hard to stop. Once again, I'm not condoning her choices/behavior. But coming from where I'm from (Austin,Texas) and once being a gang-banger and I am an addict, things aren't so cut an dry. It took for me to get shot and paralyzed for me to make a change. I say change was forced upon me, although i do know guys that are paralyzed and still do/sell drugs and gang bang. That goes to show that events affect us as humans differently. What I'm try'n to say is that we as people can find ourselves in situations/behaviors that are hard to control/stop. It takes work and only those who can admit it can actually seek out that help. Like I said not making excuses just pointing out reality cuz to some people, who have had it better in life, tend to not be able to relate to the brothers and sisters that are down in the ditches.
Okay, you've never done drugs you've never broken a law, whoopty doo good for you. Everyone isn't as fortunate to have your decision making capabilities. I applaud your work within your community... but I must say that if you really do the work you must know that we are in need of a lot more brothers and sisters to (mentor) supplement the upbringing of our lost people. It serves no good to sit and point the finger at people you have the vaguest clue about what has gone on in their lives. Try some understanding... I'm going out on a limb here but maybe that was what she was lacking in her life amongst other things.

Sorry for the long post everyone.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

"There is a evil in this town." Yes Rev. it's called racism.

It's 21st century Jim Crow, brother.

It's the Drug War, designed and prosecuted as a war on black people.

west coast story said...

damien: At the end of your post you ask for more mentors and more resources for young people. I totally agree. But here's the thing: It's not going to happen until black folks get as over the top crazy about a child who is killed in a drive-by by a banger as we do over a child or adult who is shot by a cop. This is what I do not understand because black people have made killing each other a cottage industry and we accept that. In my town, there might be one or two fatal officer involved shootings in a year. But the number of blacks who die annually at the hands of other blacks is around 100 lately, and that doesn't include the "accidents" like the ten year old black/Latino kid who was shot by a stray bullet and paralyzed while taking a lesson at his piano school. It happened in a nice neighborhood which resulted in howls of outrage, mostly from white people. Nobody remembers the toddler who died in East Oakland while riding with his drug dealing dirtbag daddy who was spooked by the county sheriff who drove around the railroad crossing arms and slaughtered his own son. They couldn't even accuse the deputy of causing the accident because he wasn't even chasing the drug dealer. The dealer got spooked and took off. See, nobody went ape crazy over that but if a cop shoots somebody, we are marching in the street. That's what I'm talking about and it's why I say that we are so wedded to being a victim because we put waaaaaaaay more energy into a cop shooting than a drive by. It's like we've assigned a certain value to a life depending on who took it away.

I take no pleasure from the death of this young woman. What disturbs me is how she lived and with a house full of kids. Where's the outrage over that? What is going to happen to those children? What kind of lives will they have now? What kind of lives did they have before? Who will start a trust for them?

I regret that you had to go through such trauma to turn your life around. It's interesting because most of the people I know who lost everything over street life were college educated professionals, including someone who was shot to death in the street after losing everything over drugs. And none of these people were kids, either. This madness can touch anyone.

BlackProfessionalEvents said...

This is absolutely horrible!

devilslayersofamerikkka said...

All you brothers out here know white cops are cowards & murders.This post is not even surprising.Fuck white people & all the rest of the dog haired races.My apologies to the so called ''good white people ''what good are you if you cant prevent the demons amongst you from the evil in thier hearts? fucking souless souls in gay ass blue uniforms.I can only hope i can live long enough to see whites die & suffer like we have.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

"This is what I do not understand because black people have made killing each other a cottage industry and we accept that."

Call me uninformed, but I wasn't aware that black folks are just walkin' around looking to shoot each other for absolutely no reason at all.

Why are most of those murders committed? In one way or another it always seems to come back to "drugs." Bangers shooting each other over botched deals and usurped territory; innocents caught in their crossfire; jumpy beat cops and jumpier SWAT troopers.

The War On (Some) Drugs is exactly the same as The War On Alcohol, better known as Prohibition.

And I cannot for the life of me understand why we in the black community are unwilling to open our eyes to the simple, elegant solution to so much of what we discuss here now-- legalize and regulate that shit, and the attendant violence will melt out of our communities like nasty ass old snow in the springtime sunshine.

Renko

jp said...

Preach Renko. A lot of black folks have bought the idea that drugs are bad and they should be outlawed and this should be enforced in this matter, this is the way it has been and this way it should be. We don't want to push back against this inertia. I live in work in NYC, I know several white recreational drug users, they don't even go out to get their shit, the dealers deliver to them like Pizza Hut. Meanwhile the South Bronx and East New York in Brooklyn get turned in to war zones, and the
Narco squad in South Brooklyn is corrupt as all hell
. In the words of Ricky Watters, "for who, for what". Let the dealers operate and sell their product to the willing users, with state tax stamp and manage the social consequences, which we have do anyway even with the War on Drugs. We've done it with alcohol, and cigarettes with smashing success for 70 years. Then we can cut spend our tax money more efficiently and even have a another source of cash for education, infrastructure, etc.

jp said...

Furthermore, I don't think anyone is consigning having a mother shot in front of her children. We are lamenting the really bad choices she continually made in her life. When you have kids your shitty decisions affect their life. Fact is she would have been alive and there for her kids if she made the tough decision and stop fucking with the bad boys. She paid the ultimate price for her bad decisions, and her children will pay a heavy price too. Of course we feel compassion for her, and want any out of line policemen punished. It doesn't mean we shouldn't be critical of the shitty choices.

the fire next time said...

Let me see if I got this right: black men who sell dope impregnate black woman, bringing 6 children in the world, from which black woman receives little or no financial assistance, is shot by cops (actually SWAT), along with her 14 month old son, and we are holding her responsible for it all?

As I see it, it was men who gladly fathered these children (and later refused to be held responsible either for their upbring, or financial assistance), and killed by men who apparently exercised the caution of a raging bull.

I see little or no condemnation of the men who fathered the kids, and a willingness to have a wait-and-see approach for the cops before condemning, but sporadic support for the black woman who lost her life, suggesting that the life she lived was the primary contributor to her death, and the wounding of her son.

As I see it, it was cops going into her home with unbridled gung ho-ism that brought down the mother.

When a person is run over by a drunk driver (on a street notorious for that kind of thing), do we say that he shouldn't have been on the street in that neighborhood in the first place?

I think not.

It may have been the case of cops too drunk on power, and too eager to bring down a felon that continued to elude them.

jp said...


When a person is run over by a drunk driver (on a street notorious for that kind of thing), do we say that he shouldn't have been on the street in that neighborhood in the first place?


This is strawman argument. People lawfully allowed to cross streets at crosswalks and other designated areas. When you are you lawfully allowed stash controlled substances in your crib for sale and distribution?

The dudes who were the sperm donor for these kids are contemptible too. But this debate wasn't about them so much, except that she should have realized they were contemptible and headed for the hills and protected her children.

the fire next time said...

Jp said:

"This is strawman argument. People lawfully allowed to cross streets at crosswalks and other designated areas. When you are you lawfully allowed stash controlled substances in your crib for sale and distribution?"

Jp, thanks for the logic lesson. But the analogy is spot on. This woman didn't break the law, and, last I heard, neither is having children.

Read the story again (the whole story): this woman had the reputation of not allowing drugs in her house:

Ms. Wilson never took drugs nor allowed them to be sold from her house, said Tania Wilson, her sister.

I'm afraid your assumption doesn't hold up. But that's okay, it's just a blog post. People do it all the time.

You said:

"The dudes who were the sperm donor for these kids are contemptible too. But this debate wasn't about them so much, except that she should have realized they were contemptible and headed for the hills and protected her children."

You're right, the debate mostly ignored the contribution of men in her untimely death: the kids fathers, and the cops who ultimately took her life.

That's my point. Women are held to a different standard than men. If a woman is sexually active and indulge in sex on the same level as men (read: irresponsibly), she becomes a social pariah.

Men, well, "boys will be boys".

Seattle Slim said...

Before I continue reading, let me just weigh in right quick. I see the tug of war in the comments and I see both sides. I understand where FN is coming from where her life shouldn't be marginalized or less important because of income or class or whatever other social construct, and believe me there are many, that she falls under. Fair enough and granted.

However, I must say that I agree very much with Dragonhorse.

Here's my perspective and I don't know how many others are parents, I'm just saying from MY PARENTAL perspective she made terrible choices that in the end cost her and (possibly) her child their lives.

Your FIRST priority as a parent is your child. Your first priority is making sure that they are well-taken cared of no matter what. You work hard, and you love them hard. Your children are your world.

I have a 5 year old and one on the way in 2 weeks or so. Two boys. I love my children so much sometimes I get stressed just THINKING about how I can protect them years from now. I don't even know what the future holds, but I am digging the hell in right now. I'm raising two people, who while mixed, they will be seen as black men so the struggle is there regardless.

Never in my life and the after life would I ever put my children in the type of danger these drug girlfriends or gang girlfriends would.

A few weeks ago, two black women were shot and killed while holding their babies by robbers or rivals were they not? They found drugs and money in the home did they not?

It makes no difference, when you play the drug game, please believe you have to pay and one way or the other you will reap what you sow.

I feel bad for her and her children. I certainly hope the child survived, but she made a conscious decision to put herself and her child in danger and she should be held responsible for that.

It is also regrettable that a mother would choose to bring her children around men who would sell to her kids and make her community unsafe.

It's time that we start making parents accountable for their actions or the lack thereof. We all know how hard it is out here for our children. Selfishness will make you do stupid things, even endanger you and your kids for money or prestige.

I want more details on the story and I will look for them. All I know is I don't think any cop in their right mind would shoot a baby on purpose.

Seattle Slim said...

Leota2 said...
What continues to astound me about some posting here is that THE DEAD WOMAN is being vilified because she had too many kids (maybe irresponsible, but not having an baring on the situation at hand.)

Will someone prove that there were drugs in the house? Will someone prove that the drug dealer was in the house? Why was the child shot?
Why is it so easy to judge this dead woman? And do drugs-- anywhere automatically justify a shooting? What do any of you know about her except she had too many kids and the cops killed her and shot her baby?
==============================

Well that makes me then answer, how do we know her boyfriend didn't put her and the child in danger by brandishing a weapon that lead to the shoot out?

That's why more facts are needed. I don't know about you but if I were a cop and some thug was ready to fire at me, it's either him or me and I'm trying to get back home to my kids so let the bullets fly where they may.

It may not be the most generous thinking but it is human thinking.

Seattle Slim said...

The fathers should be held accountable for stepping out on her but let's be real here, we all know that nobody can take care of you, look out for your best interests better than you.

She didn't have to sleep with them and unless it was rape, she knew what was going to happen. She chose to have kids by men who probably made it clear they were going to bounce.

So bringing the fathers up is almost moot.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

Blame the fathers, they're shiftless fucks who endanger their children.

Blame the mothers, they're all hoes too stupid to stay away from them murderin' drug-dealin' niggas.

But god bless the po-lice, 'cause they's doin' God's work.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

So many can't wrap their little minds around the fact that the mothers AND the fathers are victims of the insane drug war and it's paramilitary prosecution.

And so, we as black folk continue to beat the living shit out of each other, literally and rhetorically; never condescending to see who who holds the whip hand.

We would rather believe "them ghetto-ass niggas" are insane bugged out sociopaths who just brandish guns and shoot each other for fun.

So many of us would rather hate on our own cousins, nephews, sons and daughters than turn our righteous wrath on the real evil we face.

We are so fucked.

Renko

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

Field, mi hermano estimado, you work in the criminal justice bidness-- I'm willing to bet you've seen a constant stream of drug prosecutorial discretions that let nice suburban white kids get off with community service or less-- and throws the whole fookin' library at black kids accused of the same drug crimes.

Am I wrong, my brother?

Renko

the fire next time said...

@ seattle slim:

"Your FIRST priority as a parent is your child. Your first priority is making sure that they are well-taken cared of no matter what. You work hard, and you love them hard. Your children are your world."

Agreed. But you're falling into your own trap. Weren't the men who fathered these children also parents?

Wouldn't you expect them to follow the same creed, uphold the same standards of parenthood, or should we just hold them virtually blameless, as is being suggested here?

Bringing up the fathers is my point, saying that it is moot, doesn't make it so.

If the events happened the way you portrayed them, the men bounced knowing that they weren't going to be around for the kids.

That tells me that the men didn't give a damn.

But that didn't stop you from placing most of the responsibility on the woman and less on the men.

Why should women care to any greater degree than men?

There's nothing intrinsically different about how the sexes view parenting, or no men would care for their offspring.

And we both know that that's patently not so.

You say:

...we all know that nobody can take care of you, look out for your best interests better than you.

What about the kids' best interest? That's the woman's responsibility, right? She had them.

My God, she didn't have them alone. Why shouldn't she be able to behave as irresponsibly as a man?

Why should responsibility be the exclusive domain of women and not men?

Nothing stated here surprises me, however. it's predictable given the years of socialization we've become accustomed to.

@ivan:

So many can't wrap their little minds around the fact that the mothers AND the fathers are victims of the insane drug war and it's paramilitary prosecution.

A victim needs a persecutor. You can't victimize yourself. You call it a "war," but it was the fathers that entered into it willingly, and they could have opted out at any time.

I don't know of anyone who has said that they were forced to use and/or sell drugs.

What we see here in surround is a mother who made bad choices and fathers who made bad choices.

If there are victims, it's the children who have to live with the bad decisions of parents.

La ~ msviswan said...

It's a shame this black woman and child was gunned down without human consideration. It’s no doubt in my mind, because of their black skin, those officers went into the home with an extra zest of "less-then-human" disregard.

What hurts even more, many of you seem to have this blame victim sickness. This nasty reaction seems to be a phenomenon when it’s a black woman in the situation. Some of you just totally missed the boat, perhaps out of your own spite, self righteousness and ignorance. Only emotional cowards blame the victims when their not courageous enough to console, relate or confront the real tragedy on hand. If you want to blame someone's "parenting", then why not blame or ask what type of men would have babies with a woman and not seem to care about their children's whereabouts?

Yes, it's sad that she was obviously searching for love and got fooled by DBR black men eight times already. Yeah let's blame her, it's much easier.

It's also interesting when people in the blogsphere actually try to warn black women from these same DBR black men, so many of you still scream bloody murder either way. Irony.

Bob Marley said: Hypocrites, stinking hypocrites...

kathy said...

Unreasonable search violation here for the mother who was killed and her children. There were children in the house.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

TFNS: A victim needs a persecutor. You can't victimize yourself. You call it a "war," but it was the fathers that entered into it willingly, and they could have opted out at any time.

Well, there's a sentence guaranteed to make one's eyes cross.

So, I'll just single out the "war" part and point out this: the young woman was killed by a paramilitary police unit using military grade small arms. They are trained in CQB (that's Close Quarters Battle) and treat every entry as a hostile assault.

Brother, if that ain't war then what the hell is it?

TFNS: I don't know of anyone who has said that they were forced to use and/or sell drugs.

Obvious strawman; and disingenuous besides.

If the shit were legal and regulated, the black market and its attendant violence would go away.

Once again, slowly and with small words: Learn the lessons of Prohibition. It was not the alcohol that caused the St. Valentine's Day Massacre, it was their illegality.

It is not the "drugs" that caused this young woman's death-- it was the Drug War.

Renko

field negro said...

"Field, mi hermano estimado, you work in the criminal justice bidness-- I'm willing to bet you've seen a constant stream of drug prosecutorial discretions that let nice suburban white kids get off with community service or less-- and throws the whole fookin' library at black kids accused of the same drug crimes.

Am I wrong, my brother?"

No Renko, you are not.

Seattle Slim, I don't have any
children, so I can't imagine what that bond would be like as a parent. But I also agree with la~msvis.... and the fire next time.. that the men among us have to step up and take full responsiblity for their actions. Hell, that woman didn't have those kids alone. Sperm donors and not fathers; that's all we have become.

La ~ msviswan said...

Question: If the boyfriend drug dealer was also killed by this “less-than-human” swat style, what would your reactions be?

Would you people jump on blaming him for selling drugs and getting himself killed in the first place? Would you also blame him for being a drug thug and putting a woman and children at risk?


Not even Natalie Halloway and the missing pregnant Marine got this kind of scrutiny form the white community. Shame.

btw Field, your security authorization codes always drive me crazy.

the fire next time said...

@ivan: Well, there's a sentence guaranteed to make one's eyes cross.

I have that effect on people. Only glad to correct your vision problem.

@ivan: TFNS: I don't know of anyone who has said that they were forced to use and/or sell drugs.

Obvious strawman; and disingenuous besides.


And neither has anyone said that there's a war going on out there. You introduced that notion, and sought to defend it.

Hell, if you can straw your man, I can certainly straw mine.

You seem to have this preoccupation with the legalization of drugs, and that that is the culprit behind all of this.

Brother man, take your drugs if you choose. Take them for your pleasure or to soften the impact of life.

For me, I rather not. I like my life raw, not spiced up with sundry condiments to make it more salivant, or less threatening.

@ivan: Once again, slowly and with small words: Learn the lessons of Prohibition.

Thanks for the preachment, and for using only "small words." Those of us with sixth-grade educations are immensely grateful.

Prohibition or not--the rest of us will have to live in your drug-induced world, and watch you drive, work and interact with the rest of us through the haze of marijuana, cocaine, and/or your drug of choice.

Your way is no more perfect than the ones we're experiencing now.

The bottom line: drugs kill!

@ivan:"So many can't wrap their little minds around the fact that the mothers AND the fathers are victims of the insane drug war..."

Thanks for the insult: I can't seem to get enough of it. Why else would I spend my precious time on a blog and listen to the sanctimonious among you.

Surely you can make your point without insulting. It's not only good manners, but shows that you're in command of your subject.

----------------------------------------------------

@la ~ msviswan: Would you people jump on blaming him for selling drugs and getting himself killed in the first place? Would you also blame him for being a drug thug and putting a woman and children at risk?

Why blame?

He made choices. She made choices. We're here to weep over the aftermath, and to agonize over how it might have been if those choices had been different--for them, as well as for the children.

Anonymous said...

We have the fact of one dead woman with kids from different donors. Each donor is a dealer.

Granma says her babymamma was an angel and didn't do stuff.

Sorry FN, there seems to be data holes in this story. You know, being an attorney and all, that this has too much missing to be valid.

In fact, it seems more a tale to place our own prejudices on, rather than tragedy.

Don said...

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I read the story. It's a really unfortunate situation that took place in Lima, OH.

I wonder if the real truth will ever be known.

jp said...

Prohibition or not--the rest of us will have to live in your drug-induced world, and watch you drive, work and interact with the rest of us through the haze of marijuana, cocaine, and/or your drug of choice.

And this is different from the status quo how? People are still taking drugs and driving, working and interacting even while illegal.

Jp, thanks for the logic lesson. But the analogy is spot on. This woman didn't break the law, and, last I heard, neither is having children.

There is an old saying, lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas. She was at a matter of habit engaged in relationships with dudes who were moving weight in the street. That put her and brood at risk. Having children by many different men in the modern age isn't illegal, but it hella irresponsible, I'm criticizing that irresponsibility.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

"And neither has anyone said that there's a war going on out there. You introduced that notion, and sought to defend it."

And you can't defend the fact that military tactics are used to prosecute the War On (Some) Drugs (and do you really want to assert that the war metaphor has not been a part of drug policy since the Nixon era?)

"You seem to have this preoccupation with the legalization of drugs, and that that is the culprit behind all of this."

Not just me my friend. Take a look at every major study of drug policy over the last century plus. Tell me if ANY of them advocate police, prosecutors and prisons to deal with the "drug problem."

"The bottom line: drugs kill!"

Sez who? Seriously.

What drugs? In what quantities?

Are you familiar with the term LD50? The fact is that the LD50 for cannabis is so high that the only way cannabis can kill is if a bale of it falls on your head.

Even your head. (I keed, I keed!)

Could you be concerned about addiction? Let me hip you to the Henningfield and Benowitz ratings of addictions for various substances. As you can see, the perfectly legal drug alcohol is the most addictive with regard to the difficulties of withdrawal, while that other perfectly legal drug nicotine is the king of dependence.

Of course, you can (and I expect you would) differ with respected researchers in the field; so if you can bring us anything that's not from the ONDCP that backs up your assertion, I'd be happy to check it out.

"Thanks for the insult: I can't seem to get enough of it. Why else would I spend my precious time on a blog and listen to the sanctimonious among you."

You could simply remain ignorant; and help consign our people to more decades of grossly disproportionate suffering at the hands of the drug enforcement apparat. Although I would beg you to heed the old dictum, "'Tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

"Prohibition or not--the rest of us will have to live in your drug-induced world, and watch you drive, work and interact with the rest of us through the haze of marijuana, cocaine, and/or your drug of choice.

Your way is no more perfect than the ones we're experiencing now.
"

First, my brother; and this time with respect-- YOU HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT DRUGS I TAKE OR DON'T TAKE. You've taken the road every supporter of the current War On (Some) Drugs takes when discussing it with a "legalizer"-- assume that person is a "drug user" and marginalize their arguments as simply self-serving.

We were talking about a young mother-- a young, black mother who was fucking shot to death by heavily armed paramilitary police forces because HER BOYFRIEND was ALLEGED to be a drug dealer.

To a man with a heart this would be a tragedy; but you insist on trying to blame the dead woman; her alleged drug-dealing boyfriend; and anyone else except the policy that sent an infantry squad into their home in the dead of night.

And brother, that's pathetic.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

Anonymous: "We have the fact of one dead woman with kids from different donors. Each donor is a dealer.

Donors? Dealers? Why don't you start calling them "cockroaches" and "vermin" and start advocating for mass sterilization and concentration camps while you're at it?

It is in this way that the old, old rhetoric about black people in general has been transferred to ghetto drug dealers and ghetto "hoes," only now the rhetoric is coming out of black mouths.

I stand by my assertion that the War On (Some) Drugs is little more than Jim Crow, 21st Century style. As The Field himself agrees, drug prosecutions are used to hammer black defendants; while "nice white kids from the suburbs" get to go home and MAYBE do a little community service.

The Drug War (and dammit, if it was a good enough metaphor for Richard Milhous Nixon it's a good enough metaphor for Ivan Ivanovich Renko) puts the trade in our communities (rather than in licensed, regulated shops like Olde English 800 is); gives police discretion to put black kids in jail and let white kids go home to their parents; and poisons the well of public discourse on the subject (see The Fire Next Time's assertion that I'm using drugs despite having absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of who I am or what I do) and lets some of us see our own people as less than human.

Seattle Slim said...

As far as I am concerned there needs to be a war on drugs PERIOD. Should it be changed from the present standards? Absolutely, but I am sorry, drugs are weak and they haven't done shit for my people.

A young Ethiopian brother was SHOT down and killed in the prime of his life in Seattle here last week by another black man who was DEALING DRUGS.

I don't give a damn what anybody says.....DRUGS ARE NO GOOD FOR BLACK PEOPLE PERIOD.

When my mother was growing up in Panama, the white kids from up the hill regularly were going to asylums and dying because they experimented with drugs. The black community down the hill didn't HAVE that problem and as a result those people went on to be successful, well-rounded people. My mom keeps in contact with them until today.


And I don't want to be preached to because I tried marijuana twice in high school. The shit sucks. I get higher running on a treadmill or listening to a John Coltrane cd.

Seattle Slim said...

FN said: Seattle Slim, I don't have any
children, so I can't imagine what that bond would be like as a parent. But I also agree with la~msvis.... and the fire next time.. that the men among us have to step up and take full responsiblity for their actions. Hell, that woman didn't have those kids alone. Sperm donors and not fathers; that's all we have become.
===============================
Nobody knows that better than I do. I come from a single parent home brother. What I am saying though, is that SOMEONE had to take responsibility. That's how parenting works brother.

She made a choice to be with men that she knew would chirp out. Okay. They chirped out. Just because they did so, doesn't mean she gets to say well "fuck it!"

If my mother would've given up on me and my brother after her divorces just because these men shucked their responsibilities, I would be screwed.

I'm going through a divorce after 6 years of marriage with my oldest's father. He's one of my best friends still thank God, but if I would've made a mistake and he was a scoundrel, left me high and dry.....I have to step up and make up for it.

That's why I say your job as a parent or rather your obligation is to your child first. It's not about what you want, or even who you want to see. I don't always want to make dinner, I don't always want to wipe a but all day, I don't always want to clean up vomit or stay up all night. Hell I get tired too lol. But I do because I brought him into this world and I love him and my life is for him now.

If anything I do doesn't benefit my children as in if I do drugs, do illegal things, date unsavory men....then I'm wrong.

Because once I had them it became about US not ME anymore.

I appreciate you Field for not jumping to conclusions about what I said, and I don't think anyone here has done that, but honestly, EVERYBODY in that house was wrong save the children.

The swat team was too gung-ho, the mother was grossly irresponsible, and the boyfriend was a scoundrel for bringing that shit around the kids.

"What tangled webs we weave...." indeed......

Anonymous said...

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LEAST OF US CAN AND DO HAPPEN TO THE BEST OF US!!!!

HOW IS THIS SISTER'S LIFESTYLE RELEVANT? THEY ONLY PRINTED IT SO SOME HOUSE NEGROES WOULD SAY "SHE BROUGHT IT ON HERSELF".

WITH ALL THE BRILLIANT LEADERS WE'VE HAD WE STILL AIN'T READY!!!!

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

Seattle Slim said, "As far as I am concerned there needs to be a war on drugs PERIOD."

Care to share exactly why?

"Should it be changed from the present standards? Absolutely, but I am sorry, drugs are weak and they haven't done shit for my people.

Two points here-- how are you going to change things so that black people will not (as we currently are) targeted for surveillance, prosecution and imprisonment FAR OUT OF PROPORTION to whites engaged in the same activities?

And when you say "drugs are weak and haven't done shit for my people," I can get to that-- but neither have single-malt Scotch whisky or Budweiser beer. Would you favor a war on either? (hint: it was tried in the 1920's; you can look up the results)

"A young Ethiopian brother was SHOT down and killed in the prime of his life in Seattle here last week by another black man who was DEALING DRUGS."

And why was he dealing drugs, rather than those drugs being available through licensed, REGULATED venues as are single-malt Scotch and Budweiser today? Could it be... because they're illegal?

When was the last time someone got shot over a botched liquor deaal? When was the last time someone died from a drive-by shooting by liquor gangsters (known in their day as "bootleggers")?

Once again, you mistake the violence derived from their black market status with some inherent quality of the substances themselves. Look a little closer-- you'll see that the VAST majority of drug-related violence is about turf battles and botched deals; not that someone "hopped up on dope" went apeshit and just started bustin' caps.

It just ain't like that.

the fire next time said...

Prohibition or not--the rest of us will have to live in your drug-induced world....

That's my point, Jp. Nothing changes!

So why not try to minimize the impact rather than maximize it, which is what legalization will certainly do.

The solution: Give up the shit. Drugs kill.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

So why not try to minimize the impact rather than maximize it, which is what legalization will certainly do.

Why, why do you say this? Based upon what evidence do you say this? Are there any-- repeat, any peer reviewed data that support your assertion?

Don't tell me, let me guess-- you just feel like it would.

As you've been conditioned to do, through years of ONDCP funded "anti-drug" propaganda.

May I recommend a musical interlude?

Seattle Slim said...

Renko,

Normally I am all for seeing the other person's point of view but again I am not changing my opinion on drugs and basically how trite and weak they are. I would apologize for my view, but I would be lying.

Drugs are a crutch for weak people. I don't want them legalized, I don't want them readily available, I don't want any of that.

And quite frankly it is cold-blooded for you to minimize that brother's death because some cokewhore ass loser was peddling drugs to the community.

Legal or not, peddling drugs to my people is UNACCEPTABLE. I don't know about you, but for me that's a no-go.

How many black children have died because their mothers were addicted to crack?

LEGAL OR NOT you are going to do what you want to do. LEGAL or NOT a weak person is going to take too many drugs and kill themselves and endanger others.

As for your point on prohibition, okay then, if you can prove to me that alcohol has destroyed black communities the way drugs have, then maybe I could see your point and concede as much, but I bet you will find that these losers aren't peddling six packs of Bud and killing each other for it.

But they are killing each other over drugs...........

Seattle Slim said...

Renko,

You really seem to make drugs seem like they are good.

Can you explain what makes you think that drugs are good?

Because what I have seen with my own two eyes with druggies proves otherwise.

I don't need any anti-drug propaganda. I'm successful in my life and DRUG FREE and my druggie friends who did coke, meth, ecstasy and pot have little to show for a damned thing because they used drugs liberally. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

Brother Slim; you mistake me over and over again, as too many do.

I do not and will never say that "drugs" are good. Every man and woman has to make his or her own choices about what to ingest whether for sustenance or for simple pleasure, it is not my place to say that.

It is not the State's place to say that, either. What I say loudly and emphatically is that it is the War On (Some) Drugs that impacts our society and our people far far FAR more than "drugs" themselves ever did or ever will.

And if you can't get to that, brother, I ain't got nothin' for ya.

"And quite frankly it is cold-blooded for you to minimize that brother's death because some cokewhore ass loser was peddling drugs to the community.

Minimize? Oh hellz to the noe.

I don't minimize it, I put the damn blame squarely where it belongs.

Brother, what you know about the history of drug prohibition in this country would fill a thimble with enough room to build a Triple-Seven (I used to be a Boeing guy up in Everett and once was also a Honeywell avionics guy on the Triple-Seven flight deck; I got some idea how big that bad boy is-- and I bet you do too.)

You just won't open your mind to see the root cause of that young brother's death (any more than you'll see the dots that connect his death and the tragic death that kicked off this discussion in the fields), and that's a damn shame because you're obviously otherwise a bright and thoughtful fellow.

One more time-- Drugs are bad, mmm'kay?

But The War On (Some) Drugs is worse.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

PS-- Slim, my young brother, you're a technologist and trained in the ways of science.

You oughta know-- the plural of anecdote is not data.

Seattle Slim said...

Renko I'm a girl :) Just an FYI. It's okay. The name throws people off a lot and in the picture I'm wearing a suit.

Okay thanks for the clarifications.

We will have to disagree on that gunman. I have the story on my blog, so if you would like you could read it. It links back to the newspaper article.

Please believe me when I say this bastard deserves to be drawn and quartered.

west coast story said...

Renko: People are killing each over exactly NOTHING. Much of it is over drug turf, but a lot of it is over hard looks, or just wanting something that someone else possesses. And it seems that many of the "senseless" killings are committed by people who are on drugs.

In Oakland, a guy goes in to get his hair cut with his girlfriend. Another guy, high on crack and with a bad crack habit, flirts with the girlfriend. Boyfriend asks crackhead to stop. Crackhead shoots boyfriend who is now paralyzed. And boyfriend wasn't some street thug but a brother who had promise. And still does, but now from a wheelchair. Crackhead is on his way to prison where it's easier to score drugs. Dumbass.

Yes, let's make drugs legal so that we can increase the number of potheads and crackheads wandering around looking for someone to knock over or knock off to score a few dollars for more drugs. Americans are simply the sickest culture on this planet. We have all kinds of pathology in our community and negroes just want to get high. Middle class negroes, poor negroes, whatever. Disgusting.

And by the way, can we end the knock on Black History Month? Proof that we are a people wedded to being victims, White Folks didn't give us Black History Month. We gave it to ourselves in the form of Black History Week that later became Black History Month. Dr. Carter Woodson, a black man, started black history week in 1926. All this babyish whining about "They gave us the shortest month of the year" is so uninformed it's embarrassing. Personally, I love Black History Month that actually starts now with MLK's birthday. Then the hip hop generation comes along and decides Black History Month is a bad thing after more than 50 years. Jesus H. Christ.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

Slim: "Please believe me when I say this bastard deserves to be drawn and quartered."

Thanks for the note, sister-- and I appreciate where you're coming from.

There is that aspect of gangsterism that devalues human life; and I can easily believe this guy was a first-class bastard who deserves to have the book thrown at him.

Based on my research on the subject, though, my central thesis still holds: that it is Prohibition that fuels the gangsters; whether that which is prohibited is alcohol, "drugs", or anything else. By making what is essentially an agricultural product illegal we drive its prices to arbitrarily astronomical levels. Being ag-products, this means that there are enormous profits to be made on them, simply because they are illegal. Call it the black market effect. (Compare, for instance the price of an ounce of cannabis on the street and say, an ounce of fresh turnip greens. The difference in price has absolutely nothing to do with how difficult it is to grow either(though the turnip greens are gonna be much tastier with some freshly baked cornbread, but I digress))

As the product is illegal, producers and consumers have no legal means to enforce their contracts. Thus, to protect those profits, violence is endemic. Thus a portion of those profits goes into the very firearms that are used in the drive-by and other shootings. On a deeper, psycho-sociological level, it fuels the very ambivalence toward human life-- you got to be hard to play The Game.

By legalizing AND REGULATING (this is the key, the crux, what makes it work AS IT HAS FOR ALCOHOL) these markets, the obscene profits go away; sales to minors are drastically reduced (EVER heard of a dealer who asked for ID?), and the street dealers are put out of business.

Now isn't that the end result we would want?

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

West Coast Story:"Yes, let's make drugs legal so that we can increase the number of potheads and crackheads wandering around looking for someone to knock over or knock off to score a few dollars for more drugs. Americans are simply the sickest culture on this planet. We have all kinds of pathology in our community and negroes just want to get high. Middle class negroes, poor negroes, whatever. Disgusting."

Let's think this through, shall we?

Let us consider that perniciously addictive legal drug, nicotine.

It is easily one the most if not the single most addictive substances known to humankind. I would be willing to wager that you know someone who has tried to quit and tried to quit and tried to quit but is still lighting up... anecdotal (the plural of which is STILL not data) evidence of its addictive nature.

Yet you don't EVER hear about someone knocking over a convenience store or robbing some poor bastard at gunpoint to support their habit.

Why?

Well, look at the price differential. Cigarettes are spendy as hell, but a smoker can usually scrape together enough cash to buy a pack by digging through the sofa and rifling his pockets. There is no need to commit a violent act to satisfy this addiction; and so you'll never hear about it happening.

Make it illegal, though; and watch the violence mount. Make it illegal and even though tobacco is simply an agricultural product, the price for the equivalent of a single cigarette would far outstrip the price of a pack today (see Germany's experience with the postwar cigarette shortage).

I challenge those of you who believe that our War On (Some) Drugs is a good thing-- bring any documentation; any peer reviewed scholarly papers or other scientifically validated evidence that supports your desire for more war.

I believe logic, history and the facts are solidly in favor of regulation, not prohibition.

And at the very least, SWAT teams would no longer be used to arrest alleged low-level drug dealers-- and shooting innocent women and children in the process.

west coast story said...

This is not 1930's America. However, just like the mafia didn't go away when alcohol was legalized, gangsterism is not disappearing when drugs become legal. There will still be gun running, prostitution (especially of underage girls), gambling and just plain old stealing.

In the meantime, it becomes even more easy for people, especially youth, to access drugs. More addicts, more crime, etc. Legalizing drugs does not mean there will be more rehab centers or less violence or crime by addicts.

Finally, drug dealing is a multi billion dollar global economy. This isn't Prohibition. The drug cartels are not going anywhere. And I guarantee you that the cartels and brothers on the block will be selling drugs cheaper than WalMart because of (1) low overhead (2) no need for quality control and (3) no ID required.

This isn't 1030's America.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

Where's your data, WCS?

I can link you to every major study of drug policy from 1894 through 1995 and NONE of them agree with you. (in fact, I did in a post quite a ways upthread-- go ahead, take a look, we've got time.)

So where's your evidence?

Or, like all drug warriors, are you just pulling a lot of emotional shit out of your ass?

Renko

ivan ivanovich renko said...

PS,West Coast: "However, just like the mafia didn't go away when alcohol was legalized, gangsterism is not disappearing when drugs become legal. There will still be gun running, prostitution (especially of underage girls), gambling and just plain old stealing."

Ever heard the phrase, "letting the perfect be the enemy of the good?"

Welcome to Earth, brother. We don't do perfect here, but we can sure as hell do better.

Yes, there will still be gangsters. Yes, there will still be violence. The operative question is-- will it be better?

The evidence is absolutely clear.

Once again-- bring your evidence that the War On (Some) Drugs is a net positive for our people, and we can discuss.

Umami said...

this is hurting my heart. my son is 16 months old. he is my third. by the third man. am i a bad mother? my children are smart, respectful, and well behaved. they know what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior for children of their age group and for adults for that matter. but i have smoked marijuana, snorted coke, popped pills, drunk alcohol, dated coke dealers, been promiscuous, and committed misdemeanors and felonies (never caught). so how do you explain my perfect angels since i am apparently a thug? how many of you had parents with personal problems, vices, criminal records even, and turned out just fine, and would to this day say your parents raised you right? and since when is it your right to judge another human being? you are human and imperfect, and therefore incapable of judging anyone's morality. can you see into anyone's soul? didn't think so.

the fire next time said...

@umami:

"...so how do you explain my perfect angels since i am apparently a thug?"

Would you recommend your previous lifestyle to your children?

And what if everyone behaved as you did? You're suggesting that you didn't eff up your kids' lives because of your lifestyle.

Would you then recommend it for all parents? It seems like an excellent way to raise "just fine" kids.

Seattle Slim said...

Umami said...

this is hurting my heart. my son is 16 months old. he is my third. by the third man. am i a bad mother? my children are smart, respectful, and well behaved. they know what is appropriate and inappropriate behavior for children of their age group and for adults for that matter. but i have smoked marijuana, snorted coke, popped pills, drunk alcohol, dated coke dealers, been promiscuous, and committed misdemeanors and felonies (never caught). so how do you explain my perfect angels since i am apparently a thug? how many of you had parents with personal problems, vices, criminal records even, and turned out just fine, and would to this day say your parents raised you right? and since when is it your right to judge another human being? you are human and imperfect, and therefore incapable of judging anyone's morality. can you see into anyone's soul? didn't think so.
=================================
You know what? I honestly don't care enough to sit here and fall into this right here. I'm too busy doing right by my own.

I will say that what you just described is called gambling. You gambled and you are LUCKY.

I hate to sound like a bitch but I don't recommend LUCK be a factor in your parenting.

And are your children well-behaved based/compared to YOU? What do others say?

Just because your children may know to keep their mouths shut in public and not speak back to adults, you don't know WHAT kind of damage you are setting for them.

*SMDH* This makes my blood run cold as hell...........

Seattle Slim said...

Renko,

As a former smoker I can tell you that if I didn't have my pack of squares available I may have gotten mad but I never decided to get a burner and blow someone's head smooth off.

I guess I'm not following using alcohol or nicotine in relation to drugs.

This is like a gun argument. Guns are legal and yet still the US has the highest if not one of the highest percentages for violence by way of gun in the world.

Legal or not, some things just aren't good.

Instead of feeding into people's weaknesses, we should be helping them cope with the bigger problems in their lives.

I'm sorry but we will never see eye to eye on this.

Seattle Slim said...

And I am telling you the recreational pot user who only gets high at home and doesn't leave the house or whatever isn't as big an issue.

It's the person who is mad that his/her daddy sexually abused them, or are mad at life so they decide to abuse some meth, some coke, some E and go out there and want to have the nerve to to bring their anger to me and take my life or my child's life because THEY have a problem.

jp said...

You pro-Drug war folks are thinking in absolutes. Good and evil, right and wrong, but life is all about the gray area. It is said morality is how we wish people would behave, economics is how they do. Renko and my arguments are based in economics, you guys are dealing in morality.

the fire next time said...

@jp:

"Good and evil, right and wrong."

Sorry to disappoint you, but these aren't absolutes: they're relatives.

"...morality is how we wish people would behave, economics is how they do.

Your statement sounds enlightened, but ultimately falls short of the mark: morality as well immorality sells.

People could care less how people behave as long as they don't negatively impact the society in which they live.

If you wish to live a reprobate life, do so, but do it on an island, away from the majority of us that don't wish to live that kind of life.

Society exists as a contract. The contract establishes certain rules and behaviors. If certain people don't wish to have their lives hindered by these rules, then they should live outside of society, not within it.

jp said...

This idea that people who think drugs should be legal want to smoke up is silly. I tried an illegal drug once in my life(weed), I hated it. You missed the point of my statement, it wasn't about economics as in money, it was about decisions, and how people behave when certain market forces in play. Read Freakamomics and you'll see where I'm coming from. There is violence in drugs because it is scarce and in demand. Legalize and flood the market, and reduce the incentive to kill, tax it at 100% and take the money help the addicts, who will exist regardless of the social contract and the law. Millions of Americans who otherwise behave in the social contract use drugs, they sit in the cubicle next to you at work, live next door to you, they are all different ages and races. Running paramilitary policemen and filling up state prisons hasn't worked in 50 years, maybe try it my way for awhile. It certainly can't be more ineffective.

jp said...

Think about this. What would happen economically, if gasoline because scarce and expensive say $20 gallon. We would see mob run grey markets, people would hijack tankers on the highway. People would be hooking siphoning devices to parked cars. The behavior would change.

the fire next time said...

@jp:

Millions of Americans who otherwise behave in the social contract use drugs, they sit in the cubicle next to you at work, live next door to you, they are all different ages and races.

jp, I hear you. I just don't think legalization is going to be the panacea you think it will be.

Thanks, but I'm tying a knot in this post thread.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

TFNS--
jp, I hear you. I just don't think legalization is going to be the panacea you think it will be.

That is to say, you ain't got nothing whatsoever to support what "you just don't think," but you'll hang onto that opinion for dear life.

"Thanks, but I'm tying a knot in this post thread."

I feel you there, so, I'll leave you with one more little nugget of enlightenment:

Ever heard of the Police Special .38? That's a .38 caliber pistol round, a more powerful cartridge with greater stopping power than the .32 caliber pistol.

It turns out that police forces across the country converted from the standard .32 to the .38 in response to the threat from Negro Cocaine Fiends, black men who would take large amounts of cocaine and terrorize white women or otherwise commit violence against whites (Do note, before 1936 cocaine was perfectly legal and available over the counter and was, of course, a major ingredient in Coca-Cola.)

We know today that this is utter bullshit if for no other reason than every black man in A-merry-ca knew down in his bones that he could be hanged from a tree, his genitals cut off and his body burned for merely looking at a white woman; nonetheless it became the story of the day.

From stories like this, the "drug menace" was born. Cocainized niggers, Mexicans smoking "marijuana", and Chinamen with their "opium dens"-- the Drug War was born of white supremacy; and to this day people of color are its primary victims.

And now, it is some 70 years later and we have internalized the lies to the point where some of us now fucking believe the bullshit; and are utterly unwilling to educate ourselves or recognize the crime that's been done to us.

Thus endeth the lecture; let the knot be tied.

west coast story said...

Renko: Why don't people who support legalization just be honest that they are potheads who want to get high and would like it easier to do so?

In California, we have a state medical marijuana law. With a prescription, you can "legally" buy MJ, if the feds aren't raiding the place. Any knucklehead can get a prescription from a "doctor" and get their "medicine." MJ apparently has valid medical use and I don't dispute that. But because of the abuse of medical MJ in California, even proponents of the state proposition that was passed are rethinking the whole concept. Medical marijuana centers are often places where a lot of druggies hang out and in Oakland, dealers would buy the stuff "legally" then go out on the street and sell it. Also, it's pretty disgusing to hear some pothead talking about taking his/her "medicine."

I'm pulling facts out of my ass? Give me one example where a western country with high street crime linked to drugs, legalized drugs, and murder or street crime decreased. Give me one example. I don't want to hear about some lab rat studies.

Do you really believe that some legit company will make crack or crank if drugs are legalized? And if they don't, someone on the street will. There is always going to be a place for illegal drug trafficking. There's always someone who has no money but is willing to turn a trick for drugs or trade some stolen trinket. You probably won't be able to do that at Kaiser or WalMart pharmacies.

You live in an ivory tower.

umami said...

yup, everyone who knows them says my girls are wonderful and extremely bright. of course i wouldn't want them to do any of the things i've done, it wasn't fun or smart to go through what i did. my point is that vilifying a dead woman as a bad mother is irresponsible considering the fact that all kinds of people raise great kids, not just the L7 crowd.

jp said...

West Coast Story,
Full legalization has never been tried anywhere Western, so how can we give you studies, that argument is circular.

Ivan Ivanovich Renko said...

WCS:"Renko: Why don't people who support legalization just be honest that they are potheads who want to get high and would like it easier to do so?"

And when did you stop beating your wife?

Seriously, brother, that’s a weak ass argument, depending on facts not in evidence; and a rather unsubtle ad hominem attack as well.

Minus ten points for asshattery.

WCS: "In California, we have a state medical marijuana law. With a prescription, you can "legally" buy MJ, if the feds aren't raiding the place. Any knucklehead can get a prescription from a "doctor" and get their "medicine."

Shall we examine some actual facts regarding medical marijuana?

First—California is not alone, there have been twelve states that have passed medical marijuana legislation.

Second— The Institute of Medicine would seem to disagree with you regarding the medicinal uses of the plant, saying that "the accumulated data indicate a potential therapeutic value for cannabinoid drugs, particularly for symptoms such as pain relief, control of nausea and vomiting, and appetite stimulation." In fact, the list of organizations that disagree with you seems rather… well, long-- the American Academy of Family Physicians, the American Society of Addiction, the Lymphoma Foundation of America and the New England Journal of Medicine among others. (did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express recently?)

Minus five points for mean-spiritedness.
Minus ten points for talkin’ out your ass.

WCS:"Also, it's pretty disgusing to hear some pothead talking about taking his/her "medicine."

Tell that to the poor bastard with colon cancer or that woman with breast cancer, for whom marijuana is the only thing that lets them eat-- giving them a chance that the chemo that’s making their hair fall out and making them puking their fucking lungs out may arrest their cancer.

You’re a hard hearted guy, WCS. Are you sure you're not a Republican?

Minus 30 points for being an inhumane, mean-spirited fuck.

WCS:"I'm pulling facts out of my ass?"

In a word, yes. I ain’t seen nary a hyperlink from your factually challenged ass.

Minus twenty points for arguing like a conservative.

WCS:” Do you really believe that some legit company will make crack or crank if drugs are legalized?“

They make cigarettes, don’t they?

Of course they will; and that’s the point, innit?

WCS:"There is always going to be a place for illegal drug trafficking. There's always someone who has no money but is willing to turn a trick for drugs or trade some stolen trinket."

And that’s why people are robbing each other for a pack of cigarettes, right? Highly addictive, perfectly legal. Why? Because relatively speaking, cigarettes are so fucking cheap that an addict can feed his habit from picking up aluminum cans.

WHICH IS THE FUCKING POINT.

Take the business out of the hands of criminals, eliminate the obscene (and murder-worthy) profits, take away the incentive for users to commit crimes to support their habits.

WCS:You live in an ivory tower.

No, I read. I think. I question.

I know that in terms of dependence, nicotine is more addictive than heroin. I know that withdrawal from alcohol addiction is more difficult than it is from heroin. And I know that marijuana is less addictive than any of them.

I know that Human Rights Watch believes that "…The racially disproportionate nature of the war on drugs is not just devastating to black Americans. It contradicts faith in the principles fo justice and equal protection of the laws… and it undermines faith among all races in the fairness and efficacy of the criminal justice system."

And finally, I know that in the areas where the Netherlands has abandoned the War On (Some) Drugs, they’ve had results that sharply contradict your (still) unsubstiantiated opinions.

This has been a long, long post that distills to one thing:

On this subject, at least, you don’t know shit.

west coast story said...

Renko: I stopped reading your response when it was clear you didn't read that I agreed MJ had medicinal benefit.

"MJ apparently has valid medical use and I don't dispute that."

Don't tell me that legalizing drugs will reduce drug related violence and crime if you have no proof. It's not a circular argument (the poster who said this), it's a position with no basis in fact.

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Anonymous said...

you didnt even put 1/8 of the story on here. you need to get the whole thing before you start putting this shit on the net. this is why people start riets and going off. "GET THE WHOLE STORY".