Tuesday, December 30, 2008

Still in the fields: And I have some Jewish friends with me.


"I know I'm rambling but whats with black people defending Israel when there doesn't appear to be a significant alliance between blacks and Jews (and YES I know about the whole civil rights movement thing) what else besides that have we worked together on?"

One of the beautiful things about hosting a blog site is that you can respond to very thought provoking and sincere questions with an entire post.

Quite a few of you were taken by surprise and somewhat upset with my stance on Israel and the Jewish people. And given the unfortunate events taking place in the Middle East right now, I can honestly say that I understand where some of you are coming from.

But as sorry as I am for the innocent victims on the Palestinian side, I am just as sorry for the countless Israelis who have been killed by suicide bombers and other despicable acts of terror over the course of that country's history.

So why do I defend Israel? Wow, where do I begin?

First, a little history lesson: Many of you are under the false assumption that the Israelis took away the Palestinian homeland and are now occupiers in a land that they have no claim to. (Kind of like us folks in A-merry-ca and what we did to the Natives, I guess) But you would be incorrect. See, there was never a country called Palestine. Jews came from Judea not Palestine. There is no Palestinian language, no Palestinian culture distinct from other Arabs, and there has never been a land governed by Palestinians known as Palestine. NEVER!

Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. [I am not religious but I will play along, because I know that most of you are.] King David established Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and Muhammad never visited Jerusalem even once. Jerusalem was under Turkish rule from 1517-1917 and under British rule from 1917 until 1948. Jewish prejudice caused many Jews to flee Arab countries and most Jews in Israel today are of Arab, not European decent.

Jews purchased that land from Arab landlords, and there was an Orthodox Jewish community living in Palestine long before the rise of Adolph Hitler in Germany forced many Jews to flee Europe and settle in Israel.

Now I ask you, what were the Jews supposed to do? Our beloved A-merry-ca had turned many of them away after they tried to flee the tyranny of the evil one. (Read about the voyage of the St Louis sometime) So Jews established their own homeland. A homeland, by the way, which they have had to defend in four wars against Arab aggression. A homeland which is the only one they can call their own (the Arab world has over 20), and a homeland which they have managed to do a pretty good job of keeping their own citizens happy in. Oh come on field, what about the poor Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank? Don't they live under Israeli Occupation? You mean the Palestinians who can't get their own shit together? The ones who fight among themselves for control and power as much as they fight the Jews? Those Palestinians? Let me see now; Fatah rules the West Bank while Hamas rules Gaza. Nice. A "Two State Solution"? Try a three state solution, because I guarantee you that no matter what, those groups are going to be fighting among themselves for power.


But the Jews are such easy targets. Why isn't anyone blaming the other Arab states for leaving thousands of Palestinian refugees hanging after the 1948 Arab Israeli conflict? Why don't we point our trembling indignant fingers at that scum, King Abdullah of Jordan, for betraying the other Arab nations? Why aren't we outraged at that thief, Yasar Arafat, who stole millions from the Palestinian people? Because it's easier to blame the Jews? Why don't we blame the British for making three different promises with nefarious intentions in mind with their now infamous "Balfour Declaration" after World War I?

So why do I defend the Jews? Because they stood by my side when the chips were down. Hell, some of them hung by my side. Because they helped to start organizations like the Urban League, and the NAACP. Because of stories I hear about Ida Wells in Memphis, Tennessee when blacks organized a militia called the Tennessee Rifles to defend themselves, and it was a Jewish shopkeeper who risked his life to get them those rifles. Because I have mad love for Haile Selassie (Save the Rasta jokes) and when that tyrant, Colonel Mengistu Mariam, overthrew him and started persecuting the Beta Israel people in Ethiopia, it was the Israelis who took them in. (Yes, there are actually Jews from Africa.) Maybe I got tired of seeing Jews trying to just live their lives, only to have their heads cut off on the Internet to make a fucking point. Maybe I like the fact that it's a Jew who started the Southern Poverty Law Center which tracks racist groups in this country and is one of the best run organizations in A-merry-ca. Maybe I like the fact that they don't proselytize to me about their faith like some people.

I know that Jessie and the rest of Rev. Inc. has made it cool to demagogue against Jews in this country. And the only thing that many black folks and Jews have in common is love for a certain chosen one. If you are black and conscious, it's the chic thing to do; bash the Jews. Remember when Professor Grif of PE told the folks in London that "if the Palestinians took up arms and went into Israel and killed all the Jews it would be cool"?


Sorry, I won't bite. The Jews are the least of my problems. To steal a line from the aforementioned PE, I won't "believe the hype".



213 comments:

1 – 200 of 213   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

I'm with you, Field. Hang tough on this issue. The Egypt blockade of Gaza makes the whole issue of Islamic Solidarity laughable. They simply don't care about those people.

szpork

classical one said...

Great Post Field! The Jews of Israel have built a very rich and technologically advanced society out of not much. They are a bastion of freedom and SECULAR governance in a region of dictatorship, and fundamentalism. I don't fear the Israelis at all, but I do worry about Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, Saudia Arabia, Iran and all the other merchants of hate, ignorance and anti intellectualism over there.

Anonymous said...

You make some good points, but I have had it with Israel. They made their led, now them 'em lie in it.

That Girl said...

Wow, my comments made a Field post! Very interesting post Field; I will definitely chew on this for a bit.

rainywalker said...

Field,
Excellent post. However a small correction. Jerusalem was never a Muslim capital true. But in 1187 Saladin [and his Muslim army] did take Jerusalem from the Christans. He was a man of honor and after battle allowed the citizens to leave Jerusalem alive after establishing terms of surrender. A good read on a cold night: God's Warriors Crusaders, Saracens and the Battle For Jerusalem.
rainywalker

Constructive Feedback said...

Very simple:

If the Palestinians are disarmed - there would be peace in the Middle East.

If the Israelis are disarmed - they would have their throats slit and their bodies thrown into the sea.

Any more questions?

People in the Sun said...

Ha! You're not afraid of being controversial, are you? Well, as an Israeli I have to admire your sense of critical thinking and pursuit of justice. The Left (black and white people) in many western countries is always trigger-happy in criticizing Israel, most of the time, as you say, because it's an easy target. I understand people being upset because of the military support Israel gets from the US, but people also need to understand this is not because American leaders are in the pocket of the Jewish lobby, but because supporting Israel is a strategic calculation.

I have many problems with the Israeli leadership. I don't believe it when they say they want peace. More often than not, in the past sixty years Israeli leaders have stood their ground for nothing but political reasons while Israeli and Arab kids died in unnecessary wars.

But you're right to see this situation is more complicated than a Christmas massacre. You're right to suggest that the fact Israel has more powerful weapons shouldn't make this "unfair." Hamas knew about the Israeli military, yet it chose to shoot rockets at Israeli cities.

Swiff said...

Nice to see that Field went against the grain on this one. I can't stand these zealots on either side. The Palestinian fans always act like its justified to suicide bomb school buses and the Israel fans always act perplexed at why Arabs and Muslims would be upset at news footage of "collateral damage" being carried out of rubble by grieving relatives.

Its like the abortion debate. People's opinions are so entrenched that any argument reads like a script. Nobody wants to acknowledge any flaws in their position, slogans get yelled, blah blah blah. I'm bored with it all. How bout dem Cowboys? :D

Anonymous said...

Field: I am continually impressed by your insight into issues, your nuanced analysis, and your courage of convictions...I'm not a Jew and don't agree with everything Israel does, and do consider myself Leftward leaning, but I gotta say, I'm with 'em on this one...you know (from the Killa town) cowards and bullies always hide behind hype, innocents, and proaganda to do their deeds...that what Hamas is doing here--it ain't an "Israeli Attack" like most media hypes report...it is self-defense. Like to hear opposing points of view.

Grata said...

The Whole Jewish/ Arab thing is simply too complex. These two groups have a common ancestry. They are like siblings that can never get along. And I highly doubt any outsider can have much of an effect.
Arabs tend to recognize the Jews that remained in the region when the Jews were dispersed. Even Gaddafi is rumored to be a Jew. Those they are against are those that returned from Europe. They believe that they were more European than "indigenous" Jews or Europeans disguised as Jews and are therefore foreign. These to them are the Zionists. We rarely get to hear about the actual cutural attitudes towards each other. What we tend to hear most is a quick Summary of their History. Israelis are entitled to their nation but Palestians also have a right to life and freedoms.

You are spot on about the Arab nations not helping the Palestians. They encouraged them to leave Israel during the war with a promise of finishing off Israel. This never happened and so these guys were left out in th cold, and Arabs don't seem to be willing to open their doors for them for the obvious reason of making it harder on Israel. Palestinians are being used by their supposed supporters.

Anonymous said...

I agree Field. I have issues with Israel's right wing Likud party. I don't believe that want peace, but I also think Hamas is responsible for the deaths of Palestinian children. When I see the funerals in the Palestinian territories after one of these flare ups I can't help but wonder how many of those mourners would be proud to have their children commit suicide if it meant they could take a bunch of Jews with them. Right now a lot of Palestinians hate Jews more then they love their own children and it gets them killed.

Also I think some of the dislike of Israel from some blacks comes form Israel's relationship with Aparthied South Africa. Most blacks I think have sympathy for both groups who have been historical underdogs. Actually, I think that's how most people feel. It's hard not to feel sympathy for civilians on both sides and not be fatigued by both sides at other times.

Kat said...

War is the terrorism of the rich.
Terrorism is the war of the poor.

The situation is too complicated and I don't take sides. Peace will be made through an objective arbiter.

field negro said...

"Its like the abortion debate. People's opinions are so entrenched that any argument reads like a script. Nobody wants to acknowledge any flaws in their position, slogans get yelled, blah blah blah. I'm bored with it all. How bout dem Cowboys? :D"

You know Swiff, it's almost like a Cowboy fan and Iggles fan seeing eye to eye.

Rainywalker, thanks for the knowledge. And I will check out that book.

Now I must look outside to see if the moon is blue. I can't believe CF and I agree on a subject.

Yes "That Girl", you moved me to post. Thanks for the question. I love when people are genuinely curious about a subject. And if we disagree, it's cool, at least you thought about both sides of the issue.

Anon. thanks for the kind words, now would you like to help me answer my hate e-mail? :)

Justice58 said...

You know Swiff, it's almost like a Cowboy fan and Iggles fan seeing eye to eye.



The Eagles show was cold on a Cowboy fan. Just blowing us out like that! Sniff!

True Jamaican said...

I'm Taino. One of the last ones. And I think that all of the blacks that are currently occupying Jamaica should be thrown out and some African country should give them land and refuge. Jamaica was never theirs. They never purchased it from us, heck, they never even gave it a "black" name. Jamaica is our name.

So leave. If you don't, we'll get help from the white folks and throw you out by force. They don't like you anyhow.

Bob said...

I hear you & mostly agree with you. But zionism isn't synonymous with religion. An American Jew isn't an Israeli (although they have the right of return). I think the concepts of entitlement & homeland in the Middle East are discombobulated, & colonialism had a lot to do with it. Even the House of Saud is basically fraudulent.

Anonymous said...

Hey Field,
You have got to be kidding right. You invoke the historical relationship between blacks and Jews to defend their actions of killing women and children under F-16s and any other American military tool they can find. You have written a nice and tidy little history that left out plenty of facts. In your thesis, I saw no mention of Irgun in your thesis, bombing of King David Hotel, I saw no history of how UNITED Nations and US conspired to give land away to Jews after 1948. I see no history of Israel returning to the pre-1967 borders as mandated by the UN. I see no analysis of how black Ethipioans are treated inside your precious Israel today. The racism they face. You would have your followers believe that most of the Jews in Israel are Arabs. That is laughable to say the least.
Jerusalem is the third holiest city of in Islam. The Dome of the Rock is where the prophet ascended into heaven. I saw in your thesis no mention of the European persecution of JEWS for centuries, not Arab persecution of Jews for centuries.

You saw the Jews are the least of your problems but the US foreign policy is deeply influenced by AIPAC and other Jewish lobbies. Hell you might as well say that American interests coincide with their masters bidding. It is not that everyone wants to pile on the Jews, hell I love their faith but separate the actions of Israel from the Jewish people. The state is a menace to peace in the Middle East. Cannot they not be critiqued for their aggression and hubris?

AnonyMouse said...

~
Actually, Hierusalem was the Canaanite capital.

What did the Jewish god say, "cursed be Canaan, or was it cursed be Ham, or is it just, cursed be you Negroes?"

Wha' sah matter field-negro, Jesus won't come back tah git cha' unless YSRAEL is restored to its Biblical borders and a new temple is built is the Canaanite capital of Hierusalem, er, Jerusalem.

You po' igNut, Negro.

NSangoma
`

Anonymous said...

Bash the Jews? Field, Please? The Jews have been well compensated for their intercession on behalf of blacks in this country. They have benefitted well from their civil rights connections. They then immediately screwed us – University Board of Regents v. Bakke.

egypt4 said...

Field, I'm a big fan, but I think your analysis is too simple. American Jews are not Israelis, and Israelis are not the Israeli government.

Just like W's abominations in Iraq don't represent what most Americans would have done (let's hope).

And, plenty of American Jews are horrified by Israel's actions. You can love American Jews all you want, but that doesn't mean you have to love everything Israel.

An English-language newspaper here in Egypt (I'm an American expat in Cairo) ran an interesting editorial that does, in fact, take Arabs to task for not supporting Palestinians: http://www.dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=18767

Now, regarding the Rafah border, from Gaza into Egypt: Israel and Egypt are the two biggest recipients of US foreign aid dollars. The figures are gigantic. This has everything to do with buying peace between these two countries. Egypt can't open that border without violating its treaty with Israel and thus risking all that aid money from the US.

Egyptians are pretty angry at their government for this. And, a lot of other Arabs are targeting Egyptian embassies for Egypt's policy towards Gaza and Israel. (Check out this blog post by a guy who calls himself Sandmonkey, an Egyptian who says he's right-wing and pro-American: http://www.sandmonkey.org/2008/12/30/blame-egypt-all-the-cool-kids-are-doing-it1/)

But, Israel isn't all good to Africans. There are many Sudanese refugees in Egypt (and Egypt is a terrible place to be a refugee, especially if you're dark-skinned), and some of them have been making their way to Israel, for the same reasons they left Sudan: to find a better, safer life. But Israel sends many of these refugees right back into the hands of Egypt, knowing full well this probably means jail or deportation back to Sudan (or Eritrea in the case of the newest influx). Here's a recent article from the SF Chronicle on the situation: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/06/MNS3144AOV.DTL

tenacitus said...

I agree with a lot of what you said but on there never being a Palestine you are way off. There has been a Palestine as long as there has been an Israel. The Arabs who live there have just as much claim as the Jews do to the land.

I was born in Nigeria and I can tell you there are jews all over the continent, there have been Jewish communities in West Africa for hundreds of years at least. In Somalia and Sudan there are Jewish folks who are still following traditions that came before the Babylonian exile.

My personal values try and see all oppression as equal and to acknowledge everyone's suffering. Just because a black man has been beat down by racism does not excuse him if he is a misogynist. If the Israeli government and the its' citizens want to practice genocide and want to make it fair seeming they have no better moral claim than any other oppressive hierarchy that discriminates and disenfranchises its' citizens. The problems in the middle east have very little to do with my people's problems but I would hope that both the people's whose cultures are so similar would treat each other with love and respect.

tenacitus said...

And if Israel did not get major subsidies from the US they would not have all the technology and weapons. People said the same thing about how great South Africa's culture was but I don't think it was because it was built on treating most of its' citizens worse than a mangy, rabid dog.

If you really think that the Palestinians who don't exist according to Field, would kill all the Israelis if there was peace Constructive Feedback then I guess it is okay if all the Palestinians are killed since they are a violent people unlike the Israelis who have never perpetrated random acts of cruelty on their enemies.

And Field even though its' complicated you have an opinion, just like you do on abortion. In many ways it is not complicated either you think abortion should be legal or you don't or maybe you don't really want to think about it, but that is a choice too. I think using false equivalency between the two sides is worse than just saying you are either pro Israeli or pro Palestinian.

My personal view is that they both love the land and there should be one state however that is a decision up to the folks who live there.

Carmen R. said...

Bravo!

nyc/caribbean ragazza said...

Wow field. I appreciate you taking the time to write this post about this controversial subject.

This issue is very complicated and it's not so black and white.

While I do have issues with Israel's right wing gov't, after 6,000 rockets attacks they had it with Hamas.

I don't see a solution to the Middle East problem anytime soon. Iran has made it clear they want Israel off the map. How does one even begin to start a peace process from that POV?

Hathor said...

Southern Poverty Law Center

Do many Black people know of this organization? There is such a disjunct between the knowledge of my generation and the forty somethings. Their is more emphasis place on the history of Africa than the history of Black people in America. Even thinking that the Rev Inc. represented most of the Civil Rights movement. For Example, Black bloggers should have reveled in the fact that the Rev. Joseph Lowery would give the benediction at the inauguration, instead of focusing on the Rev. Rick Warren.

It is a shame that FN has to spell out the relationship between Jews and Blacks.

field negro said...

"True Jamaican"? I think not!

Wa tek yu bombo clot back ina de house mean?

"The Jews have been well compensated for their intercession on behalf of blacks in this country."

Really? Link please!

Anonymous said...

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages.You dont even know the names of Arabs,and I dont blame you because geography book no longer exist,not only do not the book exist the Arabs villages are not there either .Nahal arose in the place of Mahul,Kibbutz Guat in the place of Jibta ,Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis and Kefar Yeshua in the pace of Tal Al-Shuman.There is not one single place built in this country that did not have an Arab." [Moshe Dayan,in Haifa,quoted by Haaretz,April,4 1969.]
You seem to be drunk from the same koolaid the unimformed ones quench their thirst from.
You are my House Negro for the day.

meditations71 said...

A thought-provoking post, however over-simplified. Your off-hand comments about the Palestinians unable to 'get their shit together' (like presumably all people living in poverty and under the yoke of oppression around the world, they are themselves entirely to blame?) did make me think of the comments of the anti-apartheid veteran and later South African intelligence chief Ronnie Kasrils (himself the son of Jewish immigrants to South Africa) who suggested that compared to the conditions under which people are forced to live in the occupied territories in Palestine, apartheid was 'a Sunday picnic'...

Shady_Grady said...

Hi Field! Thought provoking post. I would like to point out a few areas of disagreement (hopefully without being disagreeable ha-ha)

1) It is beyond dispute that before the modern state of Israel was created in 1948, there were (Non-Jewish)people living in Palestine. Whether or not they called themselves Palestinians or how much nationalism they evinced or how close their culture might be to other Arab cultures has not the slightest bearing on whether or not they should accept or be forced to accept settlers who intend to set up an religious ethnic state that dispossesses, subordinates or transfers the current (non-Jewish) inhabitants. The Palestinians are simply not going to accept the legitimacy of that move any more than the Algerians accepted the French hegemony or the Kenyans accepted the British or so on and on. People argue that the other Arab nations should have accepted the Palestinians. Arabs are just as different from each other as Europeans are. In addition the Palestinians could make the argument that the Europeans should have accepted the Jews.

2) People of all races are a mixture of good and evil. No one has a monopoly of morality. So the fact that some Jews participated in the American Civil Rights movement is commendable but that has nothing whatsoever to do with supporting or defending Israel. There are whites who supported the Civil Rights Movement but that doesn't mean that Black folks were then obligated to support apartheid South Africa.

3) I can't speak for others and won't but for me it's not about being a demagogue against Jews so much as it is being consistent in standards of right and wrong. If there were any country on the planet that were treating Jews half as poorly as Israel treats Palestinians we'd never hear the end of it. The Palestinians have been under military occupation for over 40 years. During that time the Israelis have been taking more and more land, more water, more resources. It is exactly the same behavior shown by settler states in South Africa, New Zealand, USA, etc. Even some so-called "moderate" Israeli Jews speak openly of Israeli Arabs as a "demographic threat" and seek a "solution". Again, what other "First World" nation gets away with this as part of its body politic?

4) I am also not religious but the historical/archeological record shows that most of the stories of King David, the conquest of Canaan, the 12 tribes were all myths. But even if these were all 100% true it does not follow that anyone has the right to take TODAY from someone else based on something that happened 3000 years ago. There's not a place on this planet that doesn't have a different political system or people extant than was the case three millenia ago.

5) Finally though arguing over "legitimacy" or history really misses the point in my opinion. Just because a person supports Israel doesn't mean that they particularly like Jews ( ie. Christian Zionists) while a person can be vociferously and adamantly anti-Israel (Michael Neumann, Norman Finkelstein, etc) and love Jews. At least for the forseeable future, Israel is not going anywhere. However neither are the Palestinians. The question is what sort of state will Israel become. It simply cannot continue to rule over occupied Palestinians. They won't accept that any more. I believe that the only solution is a one-state solution in which there are no special rights based on religion or ethnicity. The tragedy is that this COULD have been done in 1948 but the Zionists wanted a "Jewish State", which by definition is going to be at least somewhat threatening to anyone who's not Jewish.

If South Africa, of all places, can accept a single state with one man, one vote as the first principle I see no reason why Israel can't do so as well.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/12/30/democracy/

Black Diaspora said...

Let's see: it's easy to kill cancer. Just kill the patient with the cancer.

It's easy to destroy Hamas. Just kill all the people in Gaza.

Will said...

So wait?

You slam Jessie and Rev Inc. for smearing american jews, but then make the same false connection as your rationale for support of Israel?

You're right, the jews are not a problem. The likiud hardliners in Israel are. Don't think they're a problem to you? Well, I guess its understandable to have such a simple perspective given the media coverage of the war lately...

Anonymous said...

I would submit that Jewish Americans *used* American Blacks during the Civil Right Movement to achieve their own *strategic objective.*

That objective was to make the transition from being considered *colored* to being considered *white* by the larger American society. They did not have the numbers to achieve this objective on their own, hence the "alliance" with Black people.

As a "colored" people, Jews were excluded (in spite of wealth)from major aspects of American life (i.e., via restrictive covenants, exclusion from country club membership, business deal, and general acceptance). As citizenship goes, Blacks were relegated to "coach class" and Jews were hard placed to move above "business class;" both groups were second class citizens.

IMHO, there is nothing *wrong* with the role Jewish people played in the Civil Rights Movement; it is merely the way things (should?) work in a plural society. My admonition is that their role not be romantisized into something that it was not.

Christopher said...

The modern state of Israel began after WWI is the result of the League of Nations' decision to approve the British Mandate for Palestine but, it wasn't until 1948 that the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine into two, separate states: Palestine and Israel.

The region has been at each others throats ever since.

My problem with Israel isn't the Israeli Jews but the radical, rightwing Likud party that all too often is elected as the majority to govern the Knesset.

I am also deeply and profoundly troubled by the practice of Zionist Apartheid that relegates the Palestinians to second and third class citizens. Restrictions to fresh water, electricity and medicine as well as, lowly work permits that only allow for the Palestinians to be employed in the worst jobs that pay the least, are all part of what I refer to as Palestinian rage at their captures.

Finally, the United States acts as a puppet master when it comes to Israel. We use and exploit Israel as a sort of staging ground to meddle in the region and Israel receives the protection of the American military (and foreign aide) in the process.

We need to completely rethink our relationship with middle east nations, including Israel.

Christopher Chambers said...

Field you said what needed to be said. Part and parcel from the history lesson, there's this joke of Palestinian solidarity etc.; The Palestinian problem is the the bastard child of Arab folly, not the Israelis. Of course, many of the commenters are also correct (indeed there are Israeli leaders who feel their country has now punted the moral orientation and high ground conveyed by the Holocaust etc.). They are now officially white South Africa.

Still, what to do about a nihilistic, wandering unhinged population of violent youths in Gaza? What do to when Hamas becomes a rallying point for extremist scum throughout the Arab world? Well, it would be nice if there's a culture change. Wiping Israel and every Jew on earth out will not make the lives of any of these fools better. Can't tell them that. Indeed, all of this stuff, like violence in our own cities, gangs, is a big dodge. Better to blame others, destroy, than face some facts and build. It's human nature.

Anonymous said...

Are you serious? The arab states are ENTIRELY responsible for this situation? What would you have them do? Accept an influx of "nihilistic, wandering unhinged population" to de-stabilize their impotent governments?

Yes, it is time to face some facts

http://icga.blogspot.com/2008/12/war-without-end.html

freedom said...

I gotta say that your history lesson leaves a bit of info blowing in the wind. Not to mention that it is a bit twisted. Nevertheless, I must also say that whatever the Jewish community has done for Blacks in A-Merry-Ca, it has certainly been re-paid at least ten-fold. Israel is devastating a democratic nation and the U.S. stands by idly. The U.S. is always crying for freedom and democracy, but when the people made their choice by democratically electing Hamas to power, it was called foul. We can all talk about division amongst the Palestinians, but that, too, is (as you said in a reference to about PE's revelations)"it's a hype that's not to be believed". They have their agenda and the means to pull it off.

In my christian upbringing, I've been taught that God gave Israel the go-ahead to invade other lands, occupied or not. Although a new dispensation has come about, Israel is still trying to follow some ancient mandate that they must conquer as God once told them, or they will be destroyed.

Israel is just dead wrong, IMHO, and the U.S. is just as guilty for not intervening properly.

This is all just banter for me. Like you, Israel is the least of my worries, and usually the last thing on my mind. The U.S. needs to be, militarily, in Sudan, The Congo, and, Somalia (I guess Black Hawk Down scares even Rangers when it comes to going back there).

I respect your opinions, but, I think you might be (logically, that is) a bit off-base.

You still with me and the EAGLES? Huh? Have a safe and blessed New Year.

freedom said...

Wow!! I just saw your "Field Negro Of The Day" - His 5ness!

I see, then, that you are still with the EAGLES. Bully for you! Peace.

BT said...

ten sez - And if Israel did not get major subsidies from the US they would not have all the technology and weapons.

They seem to do quite well at developing their own weapons and technology. Indeed, without Jewish scientists, much of our weapons technology wouldn't exist.

Christopher - It is disingenuous to believe that the partition was the source of enmity in the Middle East - those folks have been at each others throats for over 2000 years.

Comrade PhysioProf said...

All I can say, Field, is you gotta lotta fucking balls to wade into this.

Happy New Year to you and Mrs. Field!

True Jamaican said...

"Wa tek yu bombo clot back ina de house mean?"

Why you getting so upset and insulting to boot?

I'm just applying your logic.

If the Palestinians can be thrown out of Palestine in favor of the "original indigenous population", i.e. the Jews, then you blacks who certainly are NOT native to Jamaica can be so ten times over. Fact is, the Palestinian Arabs have lived in that region for more than 800 years before Jamaica was even populated by Blacks.

So, don't apply a double standard. Out off Jamaica with you guys, back to Africa!

Or maybe they'll set up some refugee camps for you in Florida or Guyana.

ms_hgrits said...

Field and Co - thanks for the New Year's Eve history lessons.

True Jamaican said...

By the way, "Field Negro".

Hearing your stuff, Marcus Garvey is turning in his grave.

Since you are so adept at history, would you care to tell us a little bit about the relationship between the most popular leader Africans worldwide had ever known and the Jews who you praise so much for founding the NAACP etc?

True Jamaican said...

That popular leader having been the Hon. Marcus Garvey.

Uri said...

field, you're quite wrong or off point about many things in this post.

first, palestinians are very distinct from other arabs (who are also distinct from each other). there is a distinct dialect of arabic known as palestinian arabic. there are distinct palestinian cultures, which incorporate practices and symbols of the canaanite ancestors of the current palestinians. most importantly, there is a very distinct palestinian identity. i refer you to kimmerling and migdal's book on the topic. i'll also mention rashid khalidi's writings, which i haven't read but i suspect will correct some of your misperceptions. in any case, how distinct a people is is *completely* irrelevant to questions of their basic human rights and their rights to freedom and independence. even if there was no palestinian language or culture or government in palestine, that does not mean that other people can enter the country and ethnically cleanse the local population. they cannot, and that is both a legal and a moral fact.

the status of jerusalem, which is one of the holiest cities to muslims, is similarly irrelevant to the issue of whether the ethnic cleansing and dispossession of the palestinians was justified.

second, you conflate jews with israel, which is not only intellectually wrong, it is an anti-semitic smear that puts jews in danger. the arab world's fury at israel is completely justified, and there are demagogues in the arab world who would turn that fury against jews, based on the israel = jews line. if you want to be a friend to the jews, don't help the racist demagogues out.

third, you blame an occupied, colonized, brutalized, terrorized, mass tortured and mass murdered population for their own condition because they can't get their act together. would you have supported the holocaust because jews couldn't get their act together? slavery because blacks couldn't get their at together? your argument is morally foolish.

fourth, i don't know where you get your history from, but your reference to "four wars of arab aggression" makes me think you're getting it from propaganda sources rather than reasonable ones. the only war that was actually begun by arabs was the 1973 war, and the aim in that war was to recover their own territory that israel conquered, occupied, and refused to negotiate over. i.e. they attacked israel's occupying armies, but not israel, which makes the characterization of it as a war of aggression pretty suspect. the best source i know of on that war is norman finkelstein's "image and reality of the israel-palestine conflict," which is also the best source i know on the 1967 war. there are many good sources on the 1948 war: benny morris's work is usually cited as the most authoritative, by i prefer simha flapan's book, which is more thoughtful. ilan pappe's book on the 1948 war is much more recent and describes israel's calculated ethnic cleansing plan. on the 1982 lebanon "war" (it was more of a massacre of civilians, really) chomsky's "the fateful triangle" is the best.

you sympathize with a country that steadfastly refuses peace offers from its neighbors (or as the case with the 2002 arab league peace plan, just ignores the offer); which routinely arrests and tortures people on a racial basis (jews are occasionally tortured, but only if they belong to what the government considers extremist groups, such as organizations that advocate racial equality; palestinians are tortured routinely, without regard for their political views, organizational affiliations, or anything else other than their ethnicity); and which has one set of laws for jews and another for non-jews, so that for example most palestinians can't vote, and 93% of the land in israel cannot be sold, leased or used for the benefit of non-jews, ensuring continuing poverty in palestinian communities.

i understand and sympathize with your appreciation for american jews who stand with black people in their civil rights struggles. you might want to consider that many of those same people stand with the palestinians in their struggle against israeli occupation, terrorism and apartheid.

to the extent that there are some american jews who support your civil rights but oppose palestinian civil rights, it is wrong to stand in solidarity with them on the palestinian question. morality is not a quid pro quo.

i also sympathize and agree with your opposition to anti-jewish statements by rev. jackson and prof. griff. but why would that lead you to support the horrible abuses that israel stands for?

lastly, i don't know where you get the sense that jews are an easy target. having been both very anti-palestinian and very pro-palestinian at different times in my life, i can tell you that you get far better treatment in mainstream america as an anti-palestinian, and you have to take all sorts of crap if you stand up for palestinian rights.

i hope you come to your senses.

AnonyMouse said...

~
feld, er, field, are you sure that you are a field-negro? or, are you a field-negro while in the cane fields of jamaica, and a house-negro for Israel.

true jamaican is on tyme, if jews get their ancestral land back, then the taino get their land back; Jamaica.

pushed out by the invading hebrews, the canaanites left and founded Carthage; or did you feld, er, felt, er, field fail to learn that Hannibal was a black man.

where did you get your piss-poor history lessons from, field? bubble gum wrappers.

it is a given, that Christopher Chambers and Constructive Feedback are punk-assed-pussies for white folks versions of world history and white folks values; but you field disappoint me, and many others.

NSangoma
`

tom said...

I would just say that any nation-state based on ethnicity or religion is bound to fail in the long run, and that goes for Jewish as well as 'Islamic' states. They carry the seeds of their own destruction in their own foundation.

In the near term, of course, all of these nations go around suppressing and killing all the other inhabitants of the region who don't share their ethnic or religious identity.

It's not just Israel. China v Tibet. Darfur. The former Yugoslavia. Iran. It's all part of a pattern.

God didn't choose any one people. Either He chose ALL people or He is a fool.

BT said...

Gosh NSangoma, like a lot of black folks here in the US, I'm part Native American...

Does that mean I get Manhattan back...

Or just the Trump Towers?

Grata said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
BT said...

Uri sez -
to the extent that there are some american jews who support your civil rights but oppose palestinian civil rights, it is wrong to stand in solidarity with them on the palestinian question. morality is not a quid pro quo.


At what time has any Arab group stood for American Black Civil Rights?

Since we are delving into history here, the Arabs participated in slavery, raping the African continent of it's peoples far longer and more viciously than even Europeans.

Other than being American, and thus a target for every Islamic nutcase with a box of C4...

I'm kinda missing the love here...

Lady Grey said...

What a beacon of light you are.

Grata said...

"So leave. If you don't, we'll get help from the white folks and throw you out by force. They don't like you anyhow."

Lol! What is this person still doing alive?

Field,

I just saw your Blago side bar. I was just thinking the same. Whites are taking the race card. LOL! That was one crazy calculation that may actually work. Its hard to hit hard at the apponted Senator without appearing racist.

kathy said...

Field, I support Israeli people, I don't support government actions that kill civilians, same as I never supported Shrub's actions.

Anonymous said...

This is so much bull that it’s not even worth responding to. Israel was the most racist place I had ever been to. The whole Jewish project is a diabolical social experiment that has resulted in the suffering of millions of people, on both sides. What “Field,” more accurately “House,” has done is conflate American Jews with Israelis; there’s a difference. And for African-Americans to essentially sell out their right to descent over some previous compact is to collectively abrogate our moral authority to comment on any matters.
I do not advocate the destruction of the Jewish state. It is neither is plausible or preferable. I support a Jewish state with defined bor ders on the 78-percent of the mandate that they controlled before June 1967. The other 22-percent – all of the 22-percent – should constitute a demilitarized Palestinian state. End the occupation, the theft of land, water and economic strangulation of the Palestinians, then you have not only justice but peace, too.
The way things are going, with the unabated confiscation of Palestinian land and the construction of Jewish-only settlement blocs in the West Bank, I think the hopes for a two-state solution may have already been dashed. Then, Israel will be faced with becoming a secular state for ALL people inside the mandate, giving Palestinians the franchise, or continuing the present apartheid solution. (It would end up like present day South Africa.) And, yes, it is apartheid. Not my opinion alone, but Archbishop Desmond Tutu, John Dugard and others who lived in pre-1994 South Africa. Or, secondly, they can continue the present course of oppressing 5 ½ million Palestinians in perpetuity, knowing that Israeli Jews will shortly become a minority west of the Jordan River, a demographic nightmare for the Jewish state that will only grow. How would we feel is Jewish Americans continued to support apartheid South Africa simply because there was a significant Jewish population living there, as well as the long, fraternal ties between white-ruled South Africa and Israel? This DID happen. And most of us were pissed.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at the slavish support African-Americans have given modern day Israel (ancient Israel only existed for 61 years). Dr. King equated all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism. Rev. Al bent trying to burnish his wanting credentials for his last hapless presidential run, went to Israel a few years ago and told Arafat to “stop the terrorism.” That’s like telling the black South Africans to stop fighting Vorster, Botha and De Klerk during the days of apartheid. (It should be pointed out that Arafat did not “order” violence during the start of the second intifada, despite claims by Sharon and others. It was spontaneous, although Israel’s bloody response that fueled it was not.) And Obama (No, I haven’t drank the Cool-Aid yet), is following the staunch Israeli (read Kadima and Likud) line. Thus, assuring that during his administration, our relations with the Arab world will probably WORSEN. That’s a disturbing probability.

There is a perverse dynamic at play here, with the so-called “moderate” states, like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, are actually colluding with Israel because they want Hamas destroyed. Of course, at least Hamas, unlike nearly all of these Arab regimes, was voted into office by the electorate in an election judged by the international community to be free and fair. These elections, of course, had been urged on the corrupt Palestinian Authority by the Bush administration, which then organized the failed Fatah take over of Gaza after the elections, which abrogated a unity agreement between the factions.
They are culpable. Like Israel, they want to crush any internal opposition, especially the Islamist, because the leaders have little, if any, credibility. They oppress their own people as much as the Israelis oppress the Palestinians. The first razed house I saw in the Middle East was NOT in the West Bank, but in Upper Egypt, in a small town near the Nile called Mallawi. The government was ruthlessly crushing an insurgency down there and started bulldozing the homes of families accused or harboring guerrillas. It’s a holdover of the collective punishment regimen of the old British colonial authorities, but it was chilling to see that the Egyptians had adopted tactics more synonomous with the Israelis.
Listen, I was in Gaza several times. You could see what Arafat and his cronies were doing. If I was living in Gaza, even though I am strongly opposed to the Islamists, I would have voted for Hamas. At worst, they were the lesser of two evils; they hadn’t been given the opportunity to discredit themselves as Fatah had. And the movement, with its wide social network, took care of the needs of the overwhelming poor in Gaza and had a reputation for honesty. I don’t support their wanton acts of violence at civilian targets within Israel proper, but I have no objection to armed attacks against Israeli soldiers and armed settlers in the occupied territories. Israel is a colonial power; people forget that. Under international law, as an occupied people, they have the RIGHT to resist. People forget that the Israelis have occupied the West Bank since ’67, along with East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. They pulled out of Gaza, but then sealed it from the land, ground and air, making it more of a large, open prison than anything else.
As for suicide bombers, the Israelis don’t need any justification. They keep conflating tactics aimed at ending the occupation with vows to destroy the Jewish state. That’s a pipe dream that has no currency, even within the movements. What they are all unified on is ending the occupation, not just removing some of the shape edges or calling it something other than what it is.
The Israelis needed no justification for attacking and almost sinking the USS Liberty off the Sinai Peninsula in ’67. Their lobby even prevented Congress from holding hearings on the matter. And the grave markers in Arlington National Cemetery were changed to prevent Israel from being implicated in a bloody and unprovoked attack by an ally on a clearly-marked and identified US Navy ship.
And nuclear-armed Israel doesn’t need our support. They perfectly capable of militarily defeating any combination of Arab armies again, with state-of-the-art weapons systems, a professionally trained and highly motivated army against a bunch of hungry, tattered conscripts, using weaponry that’s at least two generations behind. The Israelis attacking Syria would be like a motorcycle gang sacking an antique shop. Against Egypt, the Israelis would beat their record of a Six Day War by winning a Six Hour War.
During my last visit to Gaza, for a story that utlimately not run, I interviewed a high-ranking Hamas member, Shiekh Abu Musamah about the Israeli elections that saw Bibi Netanyahu voted into office a prime minister. I asked him if Hamas was responsible for electing Bibi with its attacks a few months before. And I asked him if that would scuttle what was then the peace process. He told me “No.” And then he said, chillingly, that the peace process was not about bringing peace between Israelis and Palestinians, but was instead aimed a creating a Palestinian civil war. I think that posterity has vindicated him.
Both sides need to chill. But we need to be an honest broker, something we’ve never been. And we need to support the Quartet, with real carrots and sticks for the Israelis, instead of just stones for the Palestinians. O isn’t going to do it. He wants Jewish political support and money, so, he’s going to continue to swallow his principles, just like he disowned Rashid Khalidi. Naming Dennis Ross as his point man for the Middle East – who wrote that he “lawyered” for Israel during the fruitless Camp David talks – is a true indication that are support for Israel’s occupation, oppression and whole-scale murder of the Palestinians will continue, probably well into a second Obama term. Sucks, doesn’t it?

AnonyMouse said...

~
Cursed be Ham.

BT, Islam comes out of both Judaism and Christianity.

Both Judaism and Christianity labeled the children of Ham as perpetual, generational slaves.

Or, are you as igNut of history as some of the others posting here.
`

Anonymous said...

Usually your on point but there is too much history you left out. The Jews of Israel are of EUROPEAN descent. They have no connection to Isreal/Palestine other than thier faith. Therefore that area is NOT thier homeland. If they want a homeland, try going back to the various places in Europe! As for the Palestinians.. regardless if there was a state called Palestine, those people inhabited that land and have as much if not more claim to it than the Europeans of Hebrew faith called Jews do!
There is so much more history to deal with that you'll need a few more posts to handle this subject..

Seattle Slim said...

Field, I am with you on this one. At the same token, I actually have grown tired of the shenanigans on both sides. I am tired. Are the Palestinians the instigators more often than not? Yes. But I am tired of these two groups of people not being able get their heads out of their asses for x amount of years. It's wrong to do suicide bombings. It's wrong to subjugate people. It's wrong to encourage children to fight YOUR fight and force them to die. It's wrong that innocents and children are dying. The pride is wrong on both sides. I am tired of them both. Fuck, just give me the babies and let the idiot adults kill each other.

Seattle Slim said...

Wait I could be wrong but I thought that Palestine wasn't very democratic.

BT said...

NSangoma sez - Both Judaism and Christianity labeled the children of Ham as perpetual, generational slaves.

We talking History...

Or Superstition?

Best to keep the two separated if you wish to rise above the "Ignut" rabble y'erself, NSangoma.

AnonyMouse said...

~
BT, the middle passage was not superstition. You do know what the middle passage was, don't you?

The justification for African slavery, the Ham story, can be found in the Holy Bible, and one of its predecessors the Babylonian Talmud.

Read Negroe read; and if you are not a Negroe, read anyway.

NSangoma
`

Anonymous said...

I am not anti Israel, but what the hell do the jews who stood by you during the civil rights movement have to do with the jews in israel? American Jews do not generally run off to Israel. This is like saying, in the past a black man helped me, now I am going to go help Africans.

Anonymous said...

Is this Negroe serious? Why is he calling this blog field negroe? He needs to investigate Stokely Carmichael's position on Isreal. That's a field negroe. Investigate those that inherited the school of thought of Malcolm. I'm just saying, you have the right to whatever you believe, but don't title your blog after a famous Malcolm quote and use his photo to cosign some 'ol hankerchif wearing, kneebending, water tott'n, eye bugg'n, hat wringing, Toby ish.

Sharon from WI said...

Grata,

In an earlier post on Field’s blog concerning Israel’s retaliation in Gaza over rocket attacks, you wonder just what is the deal between this relationship between blacks and Jews.

You say that there were plenty of whites involved in the Civil Rights Movement before Jews got involved.

I would like to point out that Jews helped found the Urban League and the NAACP, long before Martin Luther King and others were even born.

As a matter of fact, the Spingarn award, the NAACP’s highest honor for outstanding achievement, was named for Joel Spingarn,who was NAACP board chairman in 1914.

And during the Civil Rights Movement of the ‘50s and ‘60s, Jews overwhelmingly made up the whites who got involved—from donating money, to marching, getting their heads bashed in on freedom rides to even being murdered for standing up against Jim Crow and segregation. Jews were so much involved in the Southern Christian Leadership Conference that MLK and others considered changing the name of the organization.

Aside from civil rights, African Americans looked to the heroes of the Tanakh, or Old Testament, if you will, as a source of comfort during the dark days of slavery. It was during slavery that Jews were found among abolitionists. And while there were Jewish slaveowners, they represented a fraction of slaveholders.

So the relationship between blacks and Jews is an involved one.

Are there white Jews who are racist? Yes, but they certainly are not representative of all Jews. Are there African Americans who are anti-Semitic? Yes. And again, they do not represent all African Americans.

And yes, one can criticize without earning the label of racism or anti-Semitism as long as you come correct.

Btw, Field, great post.

Sharon from WI said...

Maybe I like the fact that it's a Jew who started the Southern Poverty Law Center which tracks racist groups in this country and is one of the best run organizations in A-merry-ca.

Field, one correction.

Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center is named after one of his dad's friends who was Jewish.

Dees himself is not.

classical one said...

American support of Israel is not the source of our problems in the Middle East. The main issue is oil, you get off oil and the Arab nations sink like a stone. How long could Iran support Hezbollah without oil money?
How long could Saudi Arabia open Madrassas without oil money? We develop alternate sources of energy and get oil down to $10 a barrel and the Mideast will go back to what it was a hundred years ago- sand dunes.

Sharon from WI said...

How long could Saudi Arabia open Madrassas without oil money? We develop alternate sources of energy and get oil down to $10 a barrel and the Mideast will go back to what it was a hundred years ago- sand dunes.

Classical One,

So many of these countries have a medieval mentality, it wouldn't be any wonder.

Someone in AIPAC once warned the oil merchants that the Stone Age did not end because people ran out of stones.

I can't wait for this technological sea change to happen. We have been dependant on oil for far too long.

Anonymous said...

People have to learn how to seperate individuals from the government. Just because you support someone does not mean you cannot protest actions of a government. I love Americans but I do not support the some actions done by the American government. What does loving American jews have to do with Israeli jews and the actions of Israeli government? I like black jamaicans so I should support Robert Mugabe then?

Grata said...

"You say that there were plenty of whites involved in the Civil Rights Movement before Jews got involved".

No, I said or meant that there were whites fighting for the rights of blacks even before the Jews got into the picture, the abolitionists. How many where whites and how many were Jews is not really known. At the time I believe the Jewsih population was much smaller so they couldn't have outnumbered the whites. When it comes to gratitude, these whites are not as well recognized as the Jews. Why is that?

Also I am skeptical when it ocmes to the Jewish involvement with the Civil Rights Movement. Jews had just as much to gain from it as blacks since anti-semitism was taking a strong foot hold in America.

So they did this for themselves not out of altruism like is commonly passed on. And now blacks have to feel for ever indebted just because afew of them did what was right and also beneficial to them at the time?

Jews have a human experience that is unique to only them. They are the longest living cultural/religious group and have constantly been persecuted. No other group has such a record. This experience gives them probably the strongest survival instinct there is. And this determines alot in their political and economic choices. So a political alliance with blacks is a sound political move that anyone with a history of oppression would make if they were smart.

Blacks ofcourse have alot to gain too. But I have observed like some one said a sort of slavish reverence for Jews by blacks that is pretty unhealthy frankly. One sign is the inability for many to see how unbalanced, even unfair this alliance is. If one can't criticize the Jews like we the whites, something is really wrong. if one where to tally well meaning whites towards the black cause and well meaning Jews. They may be even. But the Jews get that added special treatment. Something is wrong.

Anonymous said...

I have become a lot more tolerent of racism against blacks because of the KKK like attitude I've seen first hand from so many in my life. First time I was threatened I was 15- black man didn't like my hair color (purple)and felt entitled to threaten me on the bus because of it. The last time I was threatened, 2 weeks ago, a group of young African Americans didn't like the way I walked down the street. 95% of the hate speech towards women, gays, Jews, and Asians I have heard in my life comes from American Americans. We have greatly unequal rights in this country when it comes to free speech.
When Jewish leaders can call Emmit Till a "nappy headed ho" who got exactly what he deserved and still be considered reputable leaders in the community....
When Asians can defend hate crimes against blacks under the guise they "had attitude"....
When women can brag about selling black men.....
When gays can sing, lyrics that brag about killing Baby Daddies and Welfare Queens and looters...
them give me a call.
As it is we have Jim Crow laws when it comes to free speech.
Don Imus recently almost lost his job AGAIN for insinuating that young black men are disproporinately involved in gun violence. He had to retract this statement although it is A FACT.
When black civil rights leaders claim Israeli Jews were behind 911, even though there is no proof, there is no problem.
When Jews claim blacks are disproporiately involved in violent crime black civil rights leaders call them
"racist jews" although this is A FACT.

Grata said...

"How long could Saudi Arabia open Madrassas without oil money? We develop alternate sources of energy and get oil down to $10 a barrel and the Mideast will go back to what it was a hundred years ago- sand dunes."

You are assuming that Arabs don't have education and are not keeping up with the advances of technology. Do you know how many American Universities are in that region?

I believe its the Emirates (or some other country in the region)which is building the largest Solar Power plant to provide enough energy to supply the whole of Europe. Their sovereign funds are not only buying up America, they are on a spending spree in Europe. These guys are taking everything they can. From your local 99 cent store to the Chrysler Building in New York. In Europe they have taken fancy for the Soccer clubs.
The only thing that can take them back is a complete destruction of civilization all over the planet.
Those Sand dune stereotypes are just that.

Sharon from WI said...

Anonymous,

You believe Don Imus is Jewish? And other than from wacky poet, what black leaders said Jews were responsible for 911? And why would anybody call Emmett Till a "nappy headed ho"?

Grata said...

"I have become a lot more tolerent of racism against blacks because of the KKK like attitude I've seen first hand from so many in my life".

No, you are just coming out that you are tolerant of racism against blacks. You are also coming out that you are a racist.

Lady Grey said...

from a post by Anna Silverman at the Jerusalem Post, summarizing an article from Der Spiegel, Jan 08:"...Ulrike Putz, the author of the article interviewed several Palestinians in the midst of building rockets and stirring away explosives. One Palestinian, Abdul, explained that building rockets for the Palestinian terror network, Islamic Jihad is his night job, while during the day he studies geography. Abdul, 22 at the time of the article, began producing rockets for Palestinian Islamic Jihad when he 19.
,,, the Hamas foreign minister highlights the goals of Palestinian rocket fire: "rockets against Sderot will cause mass migration, greatly disrupt daily lives and government administration." He states that rockets have a much larger impact on the government than suicide bombings. "We are using the methods that convince the Israelis that their occupation is costing them too much. We are succeeding with the rockets. We have no losses and the impact on the Israeli side is so much."
"...the article does offer some useful information into the production of Kassam rockets and what will lay in store for Israelis living in the southern end of the country. First, the article makes the point that the smuggling tunnels between the Gaza and Egyptian border "ensure that there is never a lack of supplies" for the production of rockets. In addition, Abul himself says that there are enough raw materials for the rockets to last for a few years.

Abdul also enlightens the readers with information regarding what countries the rocket material originates. He explains that the TNT comes from Sudan through Egypt, while other materials arrive by boat across the sea to Gaza. He even mentions Eastern Europe as another location for raw materials for rocket productions. Ironically, Abdul says that the fertilizer for the rocket fuel comes from Israel.

One of most interesting points involved the financial cost of rocket production. According to Abdul, producing one large rocket costs around 500 euros, which roughly translates to 640 US dollars.

Although the production of rockets is certainly not cheap, the Der Spiegel reporter quotes Abdul calling his work as a rocket builder 'child's play." This child's play entails a team of 12 Palestinian men who can make up to 100 rockets per night shift. The work entails also several steps. The first step begins with welding the rocket casings together from metal pipes. Another team fills the rocket warhead with three kilograms of TNT. The final step involves a highly explosive mixture of glucose, fertilizer and other kilometers which propels rockets to reach distances of up to nine kilometers. The rocket explodes on impact thanks to a detonator cap, which Abdul inserts into the rocket.

What is child's play for Abdul in Gaza is a cruel game of fear and panic, sometimes even life and death, for Israeli children in Sderot. Although Sderot children may not be the personal targets of Abdul as he claims, they and the innocent Israeli families of the Negev and now Ashkelon, are paying the psychological price for Palestinian terrorism. Finally, there is another overlooked phenomena--Palestinian college students like Abdul have been robbed of normal living themselves as they are recruited and paid to produce weapons of terror in the name of jihad and the destruction of Israel.

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/fendel/entry/why_the_ceasefire_never_stood

field negro said...

"Field, one correction.

Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center is named after one of his dad's friends who was Jewish.

Dees himself is not."

Sharon, Morris Dees is a great guy. (Met him a time or two) But I was referring to Joe Levin who was the co-founder of the SPLC.

"Is this Negroe serious? Why is he calling this blog field negroe? He needs to investigate Stokely Carmichael's position on Isreal. That's a field negroe. Investigate those that inherited the school of thought of Malcolm. I'm just saying, you have the right to whatever you believe, but don't title your blog after a famous Malcolm quote and use his photo to cosign some 'ol hankerchif wearing, kneebending, water tott'n, eye bugg'n, hat wringing, Toby ish."

Anon."A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE". And yes this "negroe" is serious.

"Why you getting so upset and insulting to boot?"

Hmmm I guess you do understand the Jamaican patoi.

Anonymous said...

Greta
Abdul is robbed of normal life because of the OCCUPATION.

classical one said...

Grata,

From the Middle East forum


Economically, the Middle East is the odd man out in the world race to globalize; it is progressively disengaging from the world economy.

The region grew at only half the rate of other developing countries during the 1990s. This statistic is particularly salient given the catastrophic performance of the former Soviet bloc during that same decade. In fact, the Middle East is the only region in the world where foreign trade has grown at a slower rate than its output. Further, its share of world exports fell from 3.1 percent in 1990 to 1.9 percent in 1998.

A good indicator of where the Middle East stands vis-à-vis the international community is its connectivity to the internet. The average number of internet subscribers per 10,000 people in the US is now 1,940. In sub-Saharan Africa, it's 2.7. In the Middle East, it is just .06.

Another indicator is foreign investment. Due to a complete lack of faith in its domestic economic infrastructure, the Middle East holds the largest share of wealth abroad in the world, with $350 billion currently collecting interest abroad, rather than in local financial institutions.

The standard of living in the Middle East is even worse than the economic data suggest. The literacy rate in the region (63 percent

The Middle East economy is burdened by the highest military spending in the world. In 1997, the Middle East spent 7 percent of its GNP on weapons, as opposed to the 2.5 percent world average. Armed forces in the region constitute 2.8 percent of the labor force, as compared to the 0.8 percent world average. And finally, arms constituted 14.5 percent of all Middle East imports, versus a 1 percent average worldwide.

betmo said...

imo- it has less to do with jews versus palestinians and more to do with genocide. the israelis are pounding the hell out of folks who are for all intents and purposes- walled in sitting ducks. they have continuously withheld basic necessities of life- food, water, medical supplies, etc- and stopped relief funds. even msm carried that. it isn't all about religion- this is about the palestinian folks sitting on land that the israelis want- and so- genocide. check out haaretz or other israeli newspapers and you will see that many israelis are unhappy with the way that their government is behaving. many tear down walls only to have the army re-erect them. many seniors in high school are risking incarceration rather than serve their mandatory stint in the armed forces.

the jewish folks have a right to exist but the israelis do not have the right to commit genocide in the name of combating terrorism. they are blowing the smithereens out of folks who have nothing. and they are doing it on purpose. you can support whatever you want- but it does not make it right.

Anonymous said...

Ok FN, I owe you an apology. I am just frusterated, as my email betrays. I have seen so much abuse and my blood boils when, to give you one example, I read recent interviews with Ice-T where he is still justifying the hate crimes against Asians. That makes me angry. When I read a columist for the Chicago Tribune poo-poo Jews anger at Farrakhan saying that he "explained why he said what he did".
I just see Americans of all groups showing disgust and outrage at racism towards African Americans...and African Americans showing a lot of, uh, tolerence, for disrespect and hatred towards others. I could have stated that more diplomatically. And I'm sure I could articulate myself better even now... but I'm in a hurry :.)

Sharon from WI said...

Field,
Sharon, Morris Dees is a great guy. (Met him a time or two) But I was referring to Joe Levin who was the co-founder of the SPLC.

Morris Dees is a great man; he truly is one of my heroes.

I guess I will have to pull Dee’s A Season for Justice off the bookshelf to read up on Levin. Season, which chronicles Dee’s life and the founding of the SPLC.

I am sure I will find Levin in there. :-)

Jack said...

They have been fighting for all of recorded history over there. Religion is a pox on the human race. How else could this be explained. Poor O man, he will be seriously judged by the outcome of this even though he will have very little to do with it.

west coast story said...

When you are wrong you really like to do it in a big way. There was a palestine before israel, it existed on maps before europeans carved up someone else's land and gave it away. I don't challenge israel's right to exist but don't rewrite history to support your position.

Back to the house with you.

By the way, the most virulent anti zionists I know are Jews.

Anonymous said...

Wow, Field! Just checked out your blog entry from yesterday. This is a little late, but...Amen and kudos for your brief concise background info re Israel/Egypt/and so-called Palestine and their constituents.
Yes, I agree: how quickly we forget who did stand and hang with us back in a day. We besmirch and disgrace the legacy of our recent "freedom fighters" when we jump on the Israel bashing wagon. But many of us can't and won't think past the next one-syllable word, much less read about the background re the Middle East.
Would love to see his O-ness pull a rabbit out his bag and handle the tribal sh...t in Afghanistan and (nuclear armed)Pakistan; and neither is the decades old Palestine-Israel sh..t gonna vanish on O-man's best day. "Barry" needs to focus our limited resources right here in his own backyard....we're hurting here just as well.
Thanks for your straightforward 'tell-it-like-i'tis' blog; I look forward to its ongoing updates into 2009. And, Happy New Year!

Flash

Public Enemy said...

In the House you go Field since you got it wrong.

Do you have a source for the Griff quote ?

Here is some history from Tim Wise

http://www.mediamonitors.net/timwise1.html

HajjiAbdul said...

Field let me ask you something:
What if someone came to your house one day and decided to take over a large portion of your property? If you refused to move out you would be subjected to daily harassment included but limited to threats of beatings and killings to you and members of your family? Also being falsely labeled as a terroist for justifiably defending your family and property against such agression?
The lame excuse that the jews were rightfulful inheritors of the land known as Palestine sounds like the same white supremecist lie that was used to justify the Euro-American genecide of the Native American Indians, The wholesale rape and plunder of the African continent, and the brutal colonization of South America by the Spaniards. I'm really surprised by your oversimplification and plain outright ignorance of history given your usual keen sensitivity to matters of race and the power relationship betwen whitws and peoples of color historicaly. I guess when it comes to the "jew" question there's a huge blind spot.

Sharon from WI said...

Public Enemy,

I agree with many of Tim Wise's articles, but that Racism conference in Durban, South Africa was nothing but an antisemite's convention.

And even Wise should know that Arabs can be antisemitic.(Have you seen any of their cartoons? They would give Julius Streicher an erection)

Yes, Arabs speak a Semitic language, but any learned person should know that the term is aimed at Jews.

Either Wise doesn't know this or he's being disengenous. I believe it's the latter.

Geez.

Sharon from WI said...

You apparently are unaware there has been a constant Jewish presence in Israel.

field negro said...

"By the way, the most virulent anti zionists I know are Jews."

wcs, thanks for supporting my position.

AbdulAlim said...

Also for the record let me add one final note. My heart is always on the side of oppressed peoples ANY AND EVERYWHERE. Further it is a psycological truism that the worst oppressors were at one time themselves oppressed. Those Jews who survived the Holocaust should be at FOREFRONT of the line for human rights and against oppression. Let this serve as a lesson for those of us recently free so called American Negroes.

AbdulAlim said...

@Sharon:

"Yes, Arabs speak a Semitic language, but any learned person should know that the term is aimed at Jews."

Arabs are Semitic peoples as well and have been for thousands of years. I dare you to repeat what you just wrote to any Arab. You might get a healthy cultural education.

field negro said...

"I guess when it comes to the "jew" question there's a huge blind spot."

Maybe. But aren't all of our positions shaped by our experiences?

AbdulAlim said...

True field we are all products of our experiences. I would also add that we possesse the capacity to grow beyond our experiences. The sojourn of struggle as a proud, free, independent black man has connected me with the never ending struggle for humanity where ever it asserts itself anywhere in the world. I am a product of 400 plus years of the struggle of the human soul to be free.

Anonymous said...

Damn Sharon,
Is that all you got to call any and everyone an Anti-Semite anytime they critique Israel. That ish is old get a new stick. Your rationale for everything Israel does is borderline crazy.
Yo Field, as you can see some posters are not feeling your love of Israel. They called you on it and you really should rewrite your original flawed factually thesis.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Field you stated a position that I have always held.
If we could just get our shit togather one half like the Jews we would be a better race. There was and never is a Palestine, and the Jews are fighting for there lives and a place to call their own. In the age of Obama, it's time for use to start paying attention to not only national politics, but world politics. That means more MSNBC, CNN, and yes even FOX instead of BET, and MTV.

Again Thank You Field

AbdulAlim said...

@Anonymous
Thank you Field you stated a position that I have always held.
If we could just get our shit togather one half like the Jews we would be a better race. There was and never is a Palestine, and the Jews are fighting for there lives and a place to call their own.

I have no problem emulating "some" of the habits Jews utilise in getting their shit together. Hell it's not even a "Jewish" thing. Every ethnic group has accomplished the same thing.
But it must be said that the Jewish right to exist does not need to be at the expense of other people.

Grata said...

Here is a bbc radio interview of Binyamin Nentanyahu justifying the attacks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/worldservice/meta/dps/2008/12/081231_net2?nbram=1&nbwm=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&size=au&lang=en-ws&bgc=003399

********************

"Economically, the Middle East is the odd man out in the world race to globalize; it is progressively disengaging from the world economy".

C1,

Be careful of economic reports written by experts about certain countries. I would be very skeptical.

The Middle Easterners are smart not to be part of the globalization process. Its not good for them and its not good for Africa either. Many countries know this and they are purposefully dragging their feet. They don't want to be part of the global system.
Guess which country's financial industry has been unscathed by the Melt down? Lebanon. Because they were cautious not to get to involved in International markets. Their economy is still strong.

Also in terms of internet access. Africa may have more because there are more people and more countries there. Besides Middle Eastern Countries don't have that much freedom of access to information as policy. So their governments are quite happy that there is low exposure to the internet. It works for them. Remember these people go by different rules. Your financial and wealth measures don't phase them. White Brish Medical professionals all flock to the Mid East for better pay. So no matter what happens to oil, these guys will not regress. Their investments are going else where.
They know oil will run out and Cities like Dubai are already preparing for that day.

Kellybelle said...

I'm sure someone said this, but Israel was none too happy about taking in Ethiopian Jews from African rescue Operations Moses and Solomon. And Ethiopian Jews report racism their Russian counterparts don't have to deal with. And "The Right of Return" for African Jews was seriously questioned.

So Israel is living in the house and blowing up the fields the way I see it.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0522/p16s01-wome.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/524662.stm

Grata said...

C1,

Also. Here in America we are just talking about a green revolution. In the Middle East investment in those technologies has already started. And guess which country is posed to be next strong econimic power after China and India? Iran!, If they don't get blown up.
Arabs have superior business skills that are deeply ingrained in their culture, history and religion. Just because they are not producing export products does not mean they are lacking. Look at Switzeland. All you need is to be extremely good at one thing to prosper.

So, they don't have all their eggs in oil.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Field!! That was thought provoking and inspirational. The Jews are the rightful people and have claim to that land no matter what. From a religious standpoint I must say that GOD made a covenant with Israel and it will stay that way forever. People are too liberal now...and it's shows.

classical one said...

And guess which country is posed to be next strong econimic power after China and India? Iran!, If they don't get blown up.

85 % of the revenue of the federal government in Iran comes from oil.

High oil prices in recent years have enabled Iran to amass nearly $70 billion in foreign exchange reserves. Yet this increased revenue has not eased economic hardships, which include double-digit unemployment and inflation - inflation climbed to 26% as of June 2008. The economy has seen only moderate growth. Iran's educated population, economic inefficiency and insufficient investment - both foreign and domestic - have prompted an increasing number of Iranians to seek employment overseas, resulting in significant "brain drain."


Here is a good article on the history of economic failure in the Islamic Republic.

http://www.meforum.org/article/1982

Sharon from WI said...

Arabs are Semitic peoples as well and have been for thousands of years. I dare you to repeat what you just wrote to any Arab. You might get a healthy cultural education.

Ah, did I just not say so that Arabs are Semitic? As are Ethiopians.

You might want to pick up a dictionary and look into the etymology of the word.

When Wilhelm Mahr coined the phrase, he wasn't talking about Arabs. He was talking about hatred of Jews.

Sharon from WI said...

Damn Sharon,
Is that all you got to call any and everyone an Anti-Semite anytime they critique Israel. That ish is old get a new stick. Your rationale for everything Israel does is borderline crazy.

What are you talking about? I've made several posts here and have no idea to what comment you are referring. There is this little thing call cut and paste (you can even italicize it...it's been known to be a great tool for clarification

Houston said...

Mr. Field, you are not afraid of stirring up an ant's nest, are you?

I'm with you on most of this post. It's a very difficult dilemma in which we Americans find ourselves. Had we in the past 50 years heard anything from the Palestinians and neighboring Arabs except "DEATH TO JEWS!", we might be inclined to hold Israel more accountable for the lack of progress in their peace talks.

The Palestinians and the Arabs claim that Israel was wrong from the very beginning, and even if five or six million Jews have to be dislocated or killed, so be it. It should never have been. However, our American beliefs believe that anyone trying to kill you is fair game, regardless of why they're trying to kill you. So, by our culture, the Israelis are entitled to defend themselves.

Listen, if I were an Israeli, I doubt I would have voted for the present government. The Israelis are not above criticism. But let's hear some reasonable voices from the other side. The Palestinians need to take some responsibility for the violence and nihilism that seems to be their strategy to defeat the Israelis. IT AIN'T WORKING! Until they own up to their shit, as awful as I think are some of the choices are the Israelis are making, I am most reluctant to criticize them for their self-defense.

I do think it's a shame that Israelis have more freedom to criticize their government than we do. Fuck that shit.

Happy New Year, dude. 2009 has to be an improvement over 2008.

Grata said...

" Iran's educated population, economic inefficiency and insufficient investment - both foreign and domestic - have prompted an increasing number of Iranians to seek employment overseas, resulting in significant "brain drain.""

Again I am very skeptical about so called Western Expert's analysis of foreign economies. If you listened to these people talk you would think that China and India are no where near becoming the next economic powers because they choose to focus on the poverty and unemployment figures and throw some fancy statistics around. A biased analysis could equally paint a bleak picture of the US. Wait, that would be accurate actually.

Don't misunderstand the benefits of Brain Drain. I have many Iranian work mates and you can tell a good portion of the money they make goes back to Iran. There are countries today in the world whose economies are being run by the so called Brain Drain. So the fact that a nation has many of its best brains abroad maybe have good long term effects.

All these countries that are projected to be the next powers are expected to get to that point in about 20 years from now. That is alot of time for a country's development.
I think there is general consesus in the States that Economists know little about economic trends and the future. I sure wouldn't be listening to their advice on foreign economies.

classical one said...

Again I am very skeptical about so called Western Expert's analysis of foreign economies.


How exactly do you measure anything then?


China and India embraced western capitalism and ended a reliance on government bureaucracy. As time went by their economies began to grow. Both of these countries also poured resources into education a KEY component of modernization. Ali Hoseyni Khāmene’i, the Supreme Leader of Iran, has showed he doesn't understand or believe in modern economic theory and his main emphasis is on an Islamic education.

Iran and many other countries in the Middle East have large, young populations that are uneducated.
This workforce is not prepared to compete in a
global economic environment. That is why countries like Saudi Arabia have to hire outside workers to run key parts of the oil industry: they don't have a workforce educated enough to do it themselves. U.N. statistics show that, in 2005, more than 75 million women in the Middle East and North Africa, a large part of the Muslim world, could not read or write.

The UN reports, “While the Arab countries have the lowest level of dire poverty in the world, it remains the case that one out of every five people lives on less than $2 per day, according to World Bank estimates for the Middle East and North Africa.” Elsewhere the report notes that a further 2.5 percent of the population are living on or below the $1 per day income benchmark for “dire poverty”.

Today, Muslim countries dedicate about .2% of GDP to research and development and Western countries average around 5% of GDP to R&D. Research and development have been crucial in the success of European and Asian economies. A pervasive lack of information from national and regional authorities proclaims two depressing facts: a lack of serious concern for science, and the deplorable absence of a strategy for scientific development.

David Harmon said...

Thank you, Field!

I will say that as an American Jew, I'm appalled at both Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, and their slide towards theocracy courtesy of their extremist Orthodox factions. At the same time, they've also been facing unrelenting attacks by hostile neighbors, who have consistently refused any meaningful negotiation. That just encourages the extremists....

A random collection of responses to comments: Two-state solution? That's what they started with, but it wasn't enough for the Arabs -- and having started the wars, the Arabs lost those wars. Oh, and if we did manage to "get off oil", the Arabs would still be selling plenty to China and Africa... but the U.S. would suddenly lose most of its interest in Israel, which is mostly about having an ally in the area.

classical one said...

Oh, and if we did manage to "get off oil", the Arabs would still be selling plenty to China and Africa... but the U.S. would suddenly lose most of its interest in Israel, which is mostly about having an ally in the area.


That statement is not true at all. America's getting off oil would cause the price to plunge considerably. About 22% of US oil imports come the Persian Gulf. Imagine if you lost that big of a percentage of your market? China, would see what we are doing and be forced to follow our lead, or they would fall behind economically.

Anonymous said...

One thing to remember, if all the arabs gave up their weapons, there would be no more killing in the middle east, if Israel gave up their weapons, they would be no more Israel.

Justice58 said...

Field,


Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uri said...

i'm seeing a lot of ignorance here about the diplomatic record of israeli/palestinian negotiation. this is not too surprising, since the american mass media's track record on reporting these issues is horrendous, presenting a picture of palestinian rejection and israeli accommodation, which is exactly the reverse of reality. if you want to understand the actual history, your best bet is reading honest writers who follow the diplomacy closely, like noam chomsky or norman finkelstein. here's a quick rundown of the actual record.

the record of the last thirty years is one of palestinians accepting the same two state solution supported by entire world except for israel and the united states, which reject a palestinian state.

recently, the palestinians took out full page ads in israeli newspapers advertising the fact that they accept the 2002 arab league plan (essentially the international consensus) and appealing to israel to negotiate on that basis - that was ignored by israel, as it has been since 2002.

the last time israel showed any willingness to negotiate the big issues (refugees, borders, settlements, jerusalem, etc.) was at taba in 2001, but once it looked like the issues might get resolved, the israeli prime minister ordered his negotiators to walk out. the palestinians wanted to keep negotiating. this was after the wave of israeli terrorism of september to december 2000 in which hundreds of palestinians were killed or intentionally maimed.

every year, israel votes against the annual UN general assembly resolution calling for a two state solution, which is supported by the palestinians as well as the rest of the world (except the U.S., some island nations, and lately australia). these always pass by margins like 150 - 3.

the two times that the two state solution has been voted on in the security council - in january 1976 and april 1980 - it won unanimously except for the U.S., which vetoed it on israels behalf.

before 1976, the palestinians opposed the two-state solution because they supported a secular
democratic state instead of the jewish supremacist state in israel. israel rejected any solution other than israeli occupation of palestine. this position was adopted within a few weeks of israel's conquest of the occupied territories in 1967, when it publicly declared that it will never withdraw from them.

israel's position on issues arising from its 1948 conquest of palestine and ethnic cleansing of palestinians is that it will not acknowledge wrongdoing, not permit the refugees to return, not compensate them, not return the property stolen from them, and not permit them citizenship. it will, however, frequently murder them, as we see these days in gaza.

Uri said...

Houston,

"Had we in the past 50 years heard anything from the Palestinians and neighboring Arabs except "DEATH TO JEWS!", we might be inclined to hold Israel more accountable for the lack of progress in their peace talks."

it's evident you have not been listening to palestinian and arab voices. you should do so before making assumptions about their views and engaging in public racism.

"The Palestinians and the Arabs claim that Israel was wrong from the very beginning, and even if five or six million Jews have to be dislocated or killed, so be it."

that israel was wrong from the very beginning is not just an arab/palestinian claim. any person who is not a moral imbecile deplores ethnic cleansing. but the arabs and palestinians have accommodated to the fact of israel's existence, and have consistently supported a political settlement which includes an israeli state in all of what's recognized as part of israel, i.e. the pre-june 1967 borders.

so their position, expressed most recently in the arab league plan of 2002, is the two state solution, which requires removal of about 450,000 settlers, but not anyone within israel. it requires no killing. israel, which already has dislocated the palestinian population, insists that it should occupy the palestinian territories, which leads to a lot of killing.

"The Israelis are not above criticism. But let's hear some reasonable voices from the other side."

maybe you're only listening to the mass media's caricature of palestinian voices. talk to some actual, real life palestinians, or read up on their representations of themselves.

david harmon,

"Two-state solution? That's what they started with, but it wasn't enough for the Arabs -- and having started the wars, the Arabs lost those wars."

this is the zionist propaganda version of israeli history, supported by no part of reality.

AnonyMouse said...

~
Punking out, feld, er, field?

The Romans threw the Jews out of Palestine over 2000 years ago; there was no Israel then, it was Roman territory. Prior to that, Palestine belonged to the Greeks; remember Alexander the Great.

Strange field, you did not argue that the Greeks should get Palestine back, nor did you argue that the Romans should get Palestine back. Hmmm, why do you not make these arguments field?

field, is your position that every ethnic group gets to return to and occupy the land that their ancestors possessed in pre-Roman times; no pre-Greek times? Or is it just the Jews who get this very special dispensation from you? If so, why?

Pal⋅es⋅tine   
pal-uh-stahyn
pal-uh-steen
–noun
1. Also called Holy Land. Biblical name, Canaan. an ancient country in SW Asia, on the E coast of the Mediterranean.
2. a former British mandate (1923–48) comprising part of this country, divided between Israel, Jordan, and Egypt in 1948:
the Jordanian and Egyptian parts were occupied by Israel in 1967.

L. Palestina (name of a Roman province)
Gk. Palaistine (Herodotus)
Heb. Pelesheth "Philistia, land of the Philistines."

Revived as a political territorial name 1920.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=palestine

According to Genesis 15:18, everything from the River Nile to the River Euphrates belongs to Israel:

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Hmmm, the descendants of your Biblical slave-masters (for you, Ham, are supposed to be Israel's slave; Jesus did not set Ham free, did he?) have a long way to go; mayhap we are acting as their surrogates in getting the Euphrates back for Israel.

Oh snap!, I forgot; Jesus will not come back for you unless Israel is restored to its historical Biblical borders, the temple of Solomon is rebuilt in Jerusalem, and Ham (you) is in chains.

A law degree does not make one literate does it field?

NSangoma
`

howard53545 said...

I am waiting for the rapture and for Jesus to bring the pork chops. Field, I am sure that you would support Israel using tactical nuclear weapons and getting rid of Hamas completely. Those bunker busters are killing a few children, but who cares. They are not ours and are useless, as they will grow up and join Hamas, so let hit em now. I am waiting to be taken up in the Rapture and riding shot gun with Jesus, who will burn all of those non- Christians.

field negro said...

Nsangoma, you are killing me with all the biblical mumbojumbo.You might as well be reading Alice In Wonderland to me. Sorry, I can't follow your logic when you go off on a tangent like that. Yes I am a lawyer, so logic is to me like weather is to a farmer ;)

Uri, you make some interesting points. But you lost me when you used the phrase "ethnic cleansing". And I love Noam Chomsky, but I doubt if you can call him an objective voice in this debate.

Anonymous said...

Dear "House" Negro:
Here's a column in today's Independent that puts lie to all the dissembling about Israel and its racist, cynical, calculating leadership. Since the Camp David accords in 1979, the calculus for peace in the Middle East remains: Land for peace.

Johann Hari: The true story behind this war is not the one Israel is telling

Monday, 29 December 2008

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The world isn't just watching the Israeli government commit a crime in Gaza; we are watching it self-harm. This morning, and tomorrow morning, and every morning until this punishment beating ends, the young people of the Gaza Strip are going to be more filled with hate, and more determined to fight back, with stones or suicide vests or rockets. Israeli leaders have convinced themselves that the harder you beat the Palestinians, the softer they will become. But when this is over, the rage against Israelis will have hardened, and the same old compromises will still be waiting by the roadside of history, untended and unmade.

To understand how frightening it is to be a Gazan this morning, you need to have stood in that small slab of concrete by the Mediterranean and smelled the claustrophobia. The Gaza Strip is smaller than the Isle of Wight but it is crammed with 1.5 million people who can never leave. They live out their lives on top of each other, jobless and hungry, in vast, sagging tower blocks. From the top floor, you can often see the borders of their world: the Mediterranean, and Israeli barbed wire. When bombs begin to fall – as they are doing now with more deadly force than at any time since 1967 – there is nowhere to hide.

There will now be a war over the story of this war. The Israeli government says, "We withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and in return we got Hamas and Qassam rockets being rained on our cities. Sixteen civilians have been murdered. How many more are we supposed to sacrifice?" It is a plausible narrative, and there are shards of truth in it, but it is also filled with holes. If we want to understand the reality and really stop the rockets, we need to rewind a few years and view the run-up to this war dispassionately.

The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: "The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."

Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders, so they voted for Hamas. It certainly wouldn't have been my choice – an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions - but we have to be honest. It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 per cent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 per cent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long, long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.

Rather than seize this opportunity and test Hamas's sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to "pressure" its people to reverse the democratic process. The Israelis surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival. Weisglass quipped that the Gazans were being "put on a diet". According to Oxfam, only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza last month to feed 1.5 million people. The United Nations says poverty has reached an "unprecedented level." When I was last in besieged Gaza, I saw hospitals turning away the sick because their machinery and medicine was running out. I met hungry children stumbling around the streets, scavenging for food.

It was in this context – under a collective punishment designed to topple a democracy – that some forces within Gaza did something immoral: they fired Qassam rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities. These rockets have killed 16 Israeli citizens. This is abhorrent: targeting civilians is always murder. But it is hypocritical for the Israeli government to claim now to speak out for the safety of civilians when it has been terrorising civilians as a matter of state policy.

The American and European governments are responding with a lop-sidedness that ignores these realities. They say that Israel cannot be expected to negotiate while under rocket fire, but they demand that the Palestinians do so under siege in Gaza and violent military occupation in the West Bank.

Before it falls down the memory hole, we should remember that last week, Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don't take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.

The core of the situation has been starkly laid out by Ephraim Halevy, the former head of Mossad. He says that while Hamas militants – like much of the Israeli right-wing – dream of driving their opponents away, "they have recognised this ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future." Instead, "they are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967." They are aware that this means they "will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original goals" – and towards a long-term peace based on compromise.

The rejectionists on both sides – from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran to Bibi Netanyahu of Israel – would then be marginalised. It is the only path that could yet end in peace but it is the Israeli government that refuses to choose it. Halevy explains: "Israel, for reasons of its own, did not want to turn the ceasefire into the start of a diplomatic process with Hamas."

Why would Israel act this way? The Israeli government wants peace, but only one imposed on its own terms, based on the acceptance of defeat by the Palestinians. It means the Israelis can keep the slabs of the West Bank on "their" side of the wall. It means they keep the largest settlements and control the water supply. And it means a divided Palestine, with responsibility for Gaza hived off to Egypt, and the broken-up West Bank standing alone. Negotiations threaten this vision: they would require Israel to give up more than it wants to. But an imposed peace will be no peace at all: it will not stop the rockets or the rage. For real safety, Israel will have to talk to the people it is blockading and bombing today, and compromise with them.

The sound of Gaza burning should be drowned out by the words of the Israeli writer Larry Derfner. He says: "Israel's war with Gaza has to be the most one-sided on earth... If the point is to end it, or at least begin to end it, the ball is not in Hamas's court – it is in ours."

Interesting? Click here to explore further

AnonyMouse said...

~
mumbojumbo

mumbojumbo; as in Africans are inarticulate, and speak thick-lipped, so much so that it sounds like a bunch of mumbojumbo. Is that what you are implying, field?

Who is speaking the mumbojumbo, field? The Black Jews, or the Black Palestinians? There are Black Palestinians didn't cha' know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrEEwKMLdVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XbxeEgCNtY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JsOMdl1wK4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHz7CbOxTV8

You down with the Black Palestinians, too, field?

NSangoma
`

True Jamaican said...

David Harmon. The Nazis had something identical to the Gaza Strip - The Warsaw Ghetto.

Spare us your crocodile tears.

Hathor said...

I wish Blogger would number comments,I lose my place too often.

Think the Illinois State house should approve the Senate choice and let the US Senate decide.

classical one said...

David Harmon. The Nazis had something identical to the Gaza Strip - The Warsaw Ghetto.


Except of course that nearly everyone was killed in the Warsaw Ghetto, either sent to death camps or killed during the ghetto uprising when every last building was destroyed and all inhabitants murdered or sent to Treblinka.

Anonymous said...

all of these comments show true ignorance OF history, but what can you say we were taught by the conquerors . Research for yourself, NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT STATE JEW. JESUS SAID HE CAME FOR THE TRIBE OF JUDAH. THE ONLY PEOPLE'S GENETICS TRACED TO THE ORIGINAL JEWS, STILL LIVE IN KENYA, THEIR BLOOD CAN BE TRACED TO THE ORIGINAL JEWS. LOOK IT UP AND KEEP LOOKING SHEM MEANS BLACK. THE ORIGINAL MAN IS BLACK SO HOW CAN THE SO CALLED JEWS BE THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE? THERE ARE NO j'S IN ARAMAIC. KILLING IS WRONG IDK WHO YOU CLAIM TO BE. NATIVE AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL EVERYONE IN AMERICA BASED ON THIS LOGIC BECAUSE IT IS THEIR ORIGINAL LAND. BLACKS HAV ETHE RIGHT TO KILL BASED ON SLAVERY JUST LIKE THE SO CALLED JEWS BECAUSE OF THE HOLOCAUST. 40 YEARS OF WAR HAS SHOWN ISRAEL's TRUE IDENTITY. children killers, bombers, genocidal murderers.

Shady_Grady said...

A few years back there was a report in Ha'aretz by Amir Oren that some IDF officers were agreeing to study tactics used in the Warsaw ghetto uprising-tactics used by the Nazis to suppress the revolt.

This is a good explanation of what's currently taking place. Roughly half of Gazan children are anemic while 75% suffer from malnutrition-stats that will only worsen as a result of this violence.

http://www.alternet.org/story/116393/israel_is_foolishly_breeding_the_next_generation_of_islamic_militants_in_gaza/?page=entire

Sharon from WI said...

THE ORIGINAL MAN IS BLACK SO HOW CAN THE SO CALLED JEWS BE THE ORIGINAL PEOPLE? THERE ARE NO j'S IN ARAMAIC.

Oh good Lord. This is nonsense on so many levels. Who said Jews were the original people?

Furthermore, your ignorance of Hebrew (and Aramaic) is quite obvious.

therapydoc said...

Appreciate the support.

Anonymous said...

Wow. Who's the House Negro now? I used to enjoy visiting this site for a smart Afrocentric take on today's issues. But this latest "Israel Uber Alles" post is repulsive. Go to a library and read any newspaper from 1945-1948 and you will see that most Palestinians weren't being removed from their homes by unscrupulous "Arab Landlords" but rather by armed Zionists. The whole foundation of your argument is a lie. You now disgust me. As a Black man, I reject and denounce you as a traitor to the cause of human rights.

Anonymous said...

I totally concer with anon 9:48 and the rest of the anti Isreal commenters. As an avid reader of your blog I am shocked, dismayed, bewildered and totally stupified as to your ridiculous and obviously uninformed opinion of the Palestinian-Isreali conflict. I mean wooooow..........are you SERIOUS?????? Even after all of the many posts that have debunked your ridiculous arguments, you continue to stand by your house negro position, I mean wtf????? I thought this site was entitled Field Negro, not Uncle Tom's Cabin!. I find it curious that you answered a few comments (barely) here and there, but it is apparant that you quickly wilted under the pressure and were not able to sufficiently defend your ridiculous positions, which I find quite facinating given that you have indicated that you are an attorney. My dear Field, I hate to do this to you on your own blog, but I must at the bequest of the majority of the individuals that frequent your site, send your black ass straight to the house to hold the lantern for no less than 1 month for the bullshit house behavior that you have exhibited within the past 2-3 days as it relates to your bullshit pro Isreal post...............move Kenny B. The Field Negro has got this.

TC

Mista Jaycee said...

I have my issues with the State of Israel's Zionist doctrine and the fact that the Afrikan Jews have had their problems with them as well but I dig your post and the way you framed it.
Jaycee
PS Happy New Year!

Grata said...

"Today, Muslim countries dedicate about .2% of GDP to research and development and Western countries average around 5% of GDP to R&D. Research and development have been crucial in the success of European and Asian economies."


C1,

Believe what you will from UN reports. The picture your researches paint is very far from reality on the ground. You are free to believe that stuff. But like I said, this is not the time to believe expert economic advice.
Keep in mind not everyone wants to be part of the global economic system. And that data provided has to be flawed because these socieities by nature are very secretitve. Just because India dances to the tune of the West and opens their books for all to see does not automatically make it any better than Iran. Remember afew years ago India wasn't even in consideration as potential power.

Your argument seems to state that only countries that follow the Western rules will prosper. That is wrong on so many levels and unbfortunately very eurocentric.

Grata said...

"if you want to understand the actual history, your best bet is reading honest writers who follow the diplomacy closely, like noam chomsky or norman finkelstein. here's a quick rundown of the actual record."


Here is Dr. Brzezinski giving his expert opinion. he is one of those that has worked closely with the two side and understands the history of negotiations.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/28433263#28433263

classical one said...

Grata,

Until you can present hard facts, I can't talk with you. Only countries that follow western rules will prosper? Not necessarily true, but religious extremism, fear of science, and rule of mullahs and dictators won't be an option. Look at how India has made it and tell me what the big difference is between them and the oil oligarchies?

Grata said...

There are all types of ethnic Jews in Israel but those wielding power are those considered to be of European descent, not real Jews if you asked the Arabs. Is it a stretch to then say that being pro Israel is being pro White Supremism?

Grata said...

"Until you can present hard facts, I can't talk with you."

LOL! How can I present facts that no one has? Economics of the middle East is still a mystery even to Westerrn minds because they can't get a handle on it. Looks like for now you have to hang on to UN reports.

"Only countries that follow western rules will prosper? Not necessarily true, but religious extremism, fear of science, and rule of mullahs and dictators won't be an option. Look at how India has made it and tell me what the big difference is between them and the oil oligarchies?"

What makes you think Middle Easterners have a fear of Science? Didn't math originate in those areas ?

Religious extremism? Rule of Mullahs and dictators? Maybe take time and study Libya, one of the least mentioned successful Islamic states. I wonder why they don't get mentioned alot. Gadaffi I believe was once named a terrorist, dictator, mad man. Looks like he knows something about running a successful country.

As for India, its no different from Middle Eastern states in terms of having a strong historical culture of business that is even steeped in their religion not unlike Islam. And their sheer numbers put them on the fast track to progress. So its not simply because of adopting some Western way of doing things. They already had an in built culture of being economically progressive. Indians have well developed indegenous business models that even Westerners are going there to study. In short, they had it going before the West.

Since you asked for quotations. Here is a BBC documentary of an Indian Trading Caste, The Marwari. The richest man in Britain is from this group.
Even without the West, they would still be successful and probably even more so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2008/09/080905_desert_capitalists_one.shtml

P.S.
If all it took was adopting Western ways and systems, every corner in the world would be developed since almost all places have been exposed and many have picked up those models e.g. many countries in Africa but they simply don't work for them.

classical one said...

Religious extremism? Rule of Mullahs and dictators? Maybe take time and study Libya, one of the least mentioned successful Islamic states. I wonder why they don't get mentioned alot. Gadaffi I believe was once named a terrorist, dictator, mad man. Looks like he knows something about running a successful country.

How much comes from natural gas? Almost all of Libya's exports come from natural gas and over half their gross domestic product! Libya is another Petro-dictatorship.

field negro said...

TC and the other anon. None of the pro Palestine (Arab) posts have done anything to debunk my arguments or my thesis. Sometimes reading comprehension is as important as being able to formulate an opinion. Read my posts again: At no point do I support the right wing Zionist in Israel. Nor do I say anything in support of the Likud Party or their predecessors, the Heruts or Gahar. I support the Israeli people's right to exist in their country. Period! You might try to study up on the actual dynamic within Israel before you leave puerile and irrational comments on the Internet. (Read up on the Oslo and Wye Rivir accords. That will be a nice starting point for you)

"Human rights"? Do you believe that some of these Arab countries who you support over Israel promote "Human rights"?

Look, if you have links or quotes please present them. If not, I suggest you head to a library and start reading. (You might want to take the lawn jockey lamp if it will help you to see better) I don't have to respond to every rant on this site from pseudo intellectuals whose only connection to the Middle East is the Keffiyeh scarf they bought from the Gap.


In the mean time, this Negro will remain in the fields, and will continue to educate your simple ass. So keep reading, you might actually learn something.

As for "wilting under pressure", the Jews and Arabs have a better chance of getting together than that ever happening.

Grata said...

"How much comes from natural gas? Almost all of Libya's exports come from natural gas and over half their gross domestic product! Libya is another Petro-dictatorship"

Petro-dictactorship? Is that what you call it? You may want to read up on the guy and the country.

Even if all their money came from natural gas (which is not true), their economy is still doing well.
Where else in the world is house ownership a right and people are directly involved in their political system?

Grata said...

"How much comes from natural gas? Almost all of Libya's exports come from natural gas and over half their gross domestic product! Libya is another Petro-dictatorship"

Petro-dictactorship? Is that what you call it? You may want to read up on the guy and the country.

Even if all their money came from natural gas (which is not true), their economy is still doing well.
Where else in the world is house ownership a right and people are directly involved in their political system?

classical one said...

Where else in the world is house ownership a right and people are directly involved in their political system?

I've read books on the Colonel and he is a dictator and a murderer. He's very smart though..

I'll give him that. Ever heard of Law 71, no political parties are allowed. Studebt groups who led protests against this and other dictatorial measure were killed. Murders of political dissidents outside the country were commonplace for decades. Libya also admitted responsibilty for the bombings of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie in Scotland in 1988, in which 270 people were killed, and of UTA flight 772 over Niger in 1989, which resulted in the deaths of 170 people. Also Libya admitted to the bombing of a West German night club in 1986.

In Libya you can still be sentenced to death for "political crimes" or free speech. Libya was also silent when Amnesty International asked for a clarification on thousands of people who have vanished without a trace in Libya over the years.

All that is just the tip of the iceberg for Libya. So if you get most of your income from natural gas and your leader has never been elected and has been in power since 1969 and no political opposition is allowed. I'd say your a petro-dictatorship.

True Jamaican said...

Classical One, consider the Gaza Strip the same as the Warsaw ghetto pre-1944. Was it not a gigantic prison then? Well some with Gaza.

Field. If the Jews wanted their own country, why didn't they demand and take part of Germany? They originally were willing to take Uganda. The Germans did plenty do deserve giving up the best of their land whereas the Palestinians did nothing at all to the Jews. And it was not unprecedented. The Poles got 1/3 of Germany after WWII.

Field you claim to advocate for Justice all the time and then you make this type of sell-out move to accommodate evil.

You punked out.

Ku pan Field. He a battyman now.

mnuez said...

I just spent about an hour reading your blog and it's fantastic. Thank you. As for this post in particular, I've never had the pleasure of coming across a fellow left-leaning American with this level of accurate knowledge regarding the situation. I can't imagine that this subject is your primary interest so it's astounding as to how you've come to be so educated regarding it. Mostly though my comment relates to the past few months worth of posts which I've been enjoying. Fantastic.

mnuez

Plantsmantx said...

"It is a shame that FN has to spell out the relationship between Jews and Blacks."

Well, he doesn't have to spell it out for me. I know they were doing all that diring the civil rights movement out of self-preservation as much as anything else. Understand, I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. At the same time, I don't feel as if I should be required to be deluded into total starry-eyed admiration over their participation in the civil rights movement.

RiPPa said...

Zionism is a racist political ideology Field, and thats what this is all about.

I understand your position, but just to add on...

The same Jews who have stood by our side back in the day are the decendants of the same people who were the first corporation: The owners of Slave ships and shipping companies were Jewish. Yes, they were mostly Dutch, but they were in fact Jewish.

Another tidbit: Most Jews were not sympathetic to the abolitionist movement, and never lent their support back then.

Bottom line...

whats happening between Israel and the Palestinians is nothing but American endorsed apartheid.

Sharon from WI said...

The owners of Slave ships and shipping companies were Jewish. Yes, they were mostly Dutch, but they were in fact Jewish.

Another tidbit: Most Jews were not sympathetic to the abolitionist movement, and never lent their support back then.


I don’t know where you are getting your information from, but Christian whites and Arabs on the whole made up those individual involved in enslaving Africans and bringing them to the New World. If you have any links you’d like to share, please provide a source other than the Nation of Islam.

Regarding abolition, Quakers were known for being involved in the abolitionist movement. But there were certainly Jews who were involved in the effort against slavery.

Those Jews who immigrated from Germany and, later, from Eastern Europe, left for the United States in search of freedom of religion and to escape the burden of oppression and anti-Semitism.

Along with this journey, they brought to these shores an appreciation for freedom and human rights—an appreciation that got them involved in the abolitionist movement.

Among those were:

There was Ernestine Rose, daughter of a rabbi from Poland

August Bondi, joined John Brown in his raid on the Border Ruffians in 1856. Bondi was in the company of two other Jewish men at that time and his letters recounting his experiences recall them speaking in German and Yiddish.

Rabbi David Einhorn, who disputed colleague Rabbi Isaac Meyer Wise who was an apologist for slavery. His outspoken stance against slavery in his sermons earned him so much animus that he had to flee his Baltimore congregation for safety in Philadelphia.

To see these names again is like connecting with old friends; I wrote a paper about these individuals when I was a freshman in college.

http://www.shirhadash.org/rabbi/04/08/20/social.html

RisingTide said...

shady,
a better solution would be federalism.
let there be an israel, and a palestine, and a UNITED military/judiciary.

please don't be an idiot. in your solution, jews would be forced to pay higher taxes than muslims, because in parlimentary systems, majority rules.

RisingTide said...

BT,
due respect but you're wrong.
ain't nearly no record of Arab atrocities on the jews because THERE WEREN'T ANY. Hundreds of years. They knew what America knows now -- a vital society is inclusive, not exclusive.
Hitler done visited Arafat's relative in Jerusalem, and then everything went to hell.

Wasn't usual, wasn't normal. Just like Kenya -- listen to their bloggers!

Arabs are all mostly alike, same culture, same history. Iranians are not Arab. And they're a functioning democracy too. Seems to work a lot better for them than it does with "bombsalot" Sauds

RisingTide said...

URI,
ISRAELI ARABS SERVE IN THE ISRAELI MILITARY.
Stuff a sock into your ignorance hole.

field negro said...

Sharon, I guarantee you that you won't get any links. Think of these rantings as old tales which have been passed down from generation to generation.

Sharon from WI said...

Sharon, I guarantee you that you won't get any links. Think of these rantings as old tales which have been passed down from generation to generation.


That or some nonsense from some whacked out website.

AbdulAlim said...

@Field and Sharon

It is unfortunate that you've never heard of the fact that "many" Jews benefited, participated or profited from the enslavement of Africans and African-Americans, nevertheless, your ignorance does not belie the fact that it occurred.

**********
"For the most part they[Jewish slave owners] had acquired wealth and owned slaves whom they exploited for the development of their resources. ...they were not only completely at home amid their surroundings, but, naturally, supported and sanctioned the institution that had been so propitious to them. It is, therefore, hardly surprising that they became staunch upholders of the slavery system, in their unwillingness to relinquish these personal benefits."

George Cohen, The Jews in the Making of America, Boston: Knights of Columbus, Stratford Company, 1924, pp 84-5.

**********
Benjamin Mordecai of Charleston, W. Virginia, in 1859, is recorded to have "purchased $12,000 worth of Africans".

Bertram Korn, "Jews and Negro Slavery in the Old South, 1789 - 1865", 1960, pp181-82.

[MY NOTE: When one takes in to account that the average price for an average field hand was $750...do the math!]
**********
According to Harold Sharfman, "...the leading auctioneer houses of New Orleans was one operated by Levy Jacobs, who paraded Blacks on the auction blocks prior to sales."

Harold Sharfman, "Jews on the Frontier", Chicago: Henry Regnery Company, 1977, pg. 152.
**********
According to the 1820 Census, the average Jewish household nationwide had three slaves. The national average for all household owning slaves, during the same period was four.

Ira Rosenwaike, "On the Edge of Greatness: A Portrait of American Jewry in the Early National Period", Cincinnati: American Jewish Archives, 1985, pg. 68
**********
"The founders of Richmond, VA Jewish community, Israel Cohen, Jacob I. Cohen, Samuel Myers, Jacob Modecai, Solomon Jacobs, Joseph Marx, Zalma Rehine, Baruch Judah, Manuel Judah to name a few were all slaveholders."

Myron Berman, "Richmond's Jewry(1769 - 1976): Shabbat in Shockoe", Charlottesville, Virginia: Jewish Community Federation of Richmond by University Press of Virginia, 1979, pg. 166
**********
Listen, I could continue for a year and the names would continue to flow. As to your challenge, some Jewish historians have documented over 10,000 Jewish slave owners in America, whereas the highest number of African American slaveholders was fewer than 300.

I've provided the above information with their sources so that one may verify the information themselves and draw their own conclusions. Also note, that I only used Jewish sources, as to eliminate any attempts to make the accusation that I was being biased.

Knowledge is inded Power

AbdulAlim said...

And don't get me started on the Jewish lock on historical Hollywood. You really don't want to go there with me

Sharon from WI said...

It is unfortunate that you've never heard of the fact that "many" Jews benefited, participated or profited from the enslavement of Africans and African-Americans, nevertheless, your ignorance does not belie the fact that it occurred.

Read my post again.

I didn't say that there were no Jewish slaveowners whatsoever. There were slaveowners among the ranks of Jews in the South, but they certainly were not in the majority.

And just as you contend that there were absolutely no Jews to be found among abolitionists, you are wrong in asserting that the majority of slaveowners were Jewish. They were largely a Christian bunch.

Sharon from WI said...

Abdul Alim,

And do you know why that is? There is a history and explanation behind the fact that many producers and movie moguls were Jewish. If you do, please share.

Melanie said...

As other people mentioned in the (incredible array) of comments to this post, Israel and Jew are not one and the same.

In fact, the examples you give - of the Southern Poverty Law Center, of civil rights struggles - are all examples of a line of Jewish thinking that is the opposite of zionism.

I was taught that "never again" meant never for anybody, not just never again for your own. It is not Israeli supporters who are following in the footsteps of the civil rights movement, it is the growing Jewish peace movement that is finally taking a stand against conservative Jews who have tried to make Israel synonymous with Jewish.

I am Jewish, but I am not a zionist.

I do not believe that government should be based on religion or that people should have special privileges based on religion. Why do I, a Jew who has never stepped foot in Israel, have rights to land that a Palestinian, whose family has been there hundreds of years, does not?

Or how about marriage. In Israel, if two people of different faiths fall in love, they have to leave the country or convert in order to marry. Wouldn't many of us be appalled if someone tried to pass that law in our country?

I don't want to live by the rules of the Christian right in the United States. I don't want to see people live by the rules of mullahs. And I don't want to see Israeli Arabs or Palestinians or secular Jews forced to live by Jewish law.

A (by no means lefty) Israeli friend of mine said to me that the fundamental problem in Israel is that they want to be a Jewish state and they want to be a democratic state and that those two things are at odds. Until we resolve that, she said, there will never be peace.

AbdulAlim said...

With respect to my remarks regarding Hollywood,I am very careful with respect to how I present this information, because I understand that like myself, a Muslim who is also Afrinca-am descent, one can't generalize about a group of people. I will NEVER IMPLY that ALL jewish people did ALL of everything. I maintain to you that many ascribe credit to themselves with respect to the African-Am's struggle in America--WITHOUT addressing the concerns and sheer hypocrisy that came along with this "help". In the same vain, to DENY or not acknowledge the that not ALL Jews contributed in a positive way, to the African-am experience is too, a "crying shame". This has no bearing on YOU, the person, or YOU, for your religious beliefs--but on those individuals who participated.


Provided are the names of major movies studios, no, CONGLOMERATESand their creators.

Adolph Zukor: Hungarian-born president of Paramount Pictures and inventor of the feature-length film.

Carl Laemmle: Fled Germany and founded Universal City studios in 1915, California's first major moving-picture factory(Not a coincident that "Birth of a Nation" was release shortly after UC was launched.)

Samuel Goldwyn (Schmuel Gelbfisz): Hollywood's major "independent" producer. (His name meant Goldfish but when he merged with the Selwyn Bros. To create the Goldwyn studio, he kept the name for himself.)

William Fox: Merged his Fox Studios with 20th Century Pictures to create 20th Century Fox.

Harry, Jack and two other Warner Brothers: Formed Warner Brothers Studio.

Louis B. Mayer (Lazar Meir): A founder of MGM who fled Russia. He adopted the Fourth of July as his own birthday.

Hollywood has been responsible for the continued petpetuation of negative stereotyping of the African american than any other american institution. And there is no denying about who have been the historical decision makers in the entertainment industry."

One might ask, how is this statement contributing to a stereotype of Jews? Perhaps like myself, you are too young to remember the innumerable "Steppin Fetchin" type movies that graced America's movie theatres in the infancy of the Movie era. Or your "Aunt Jemima" type depiction of the African-american women? Or Johnnny Westbraunners(sp) TARZAN, KING OF THE APES genre that lasted for close to 60 years. There is no denying that Al Jolson, (himself an immigrant Jew) donned "black face" which shuttled in YET another genre of Hollywood's vicious STEREOTYPING of the African-Am.

The names I provided, and countless others I didn't, all were DIRECTLY responsible for the negative images they were selling. And they did so with foresight and full knowledge of the devastating impact that these negative images had on, not only African-American, but latinos and Native Americans(who can forget the Lone Ranger,who actually had a side kick, Tonto). Tonto is spanish for STUPID(Idiot in Portguese) AND ARABS. All the while donating to "minority" organizations in the name of Humanitarian epiphany, but more likely to reap the benefits of the government's version of corporate welfare, ie., tax write offs.

They say that in ignorance there is comfort, but it is the truth that sets you free. Research for yourself. The information that I've shared in these recent posts should not be misconscrued--by ANYONE--to draw conclusions regarding that I harbor any anti-semetic sentiments towards Jews or any one else

classical one said...

It is unfortunate that you've never heard of the fact that "many" Jews benefited, participated or profited from the enslavement of Africans and African-Americans,

And what of the Arabs that refused to stop the slave trade even after it was outlawed by England and France? Slavery still exists today in both Saudi Arabia and Sudan.

In the eighteenth century, Arab caravans brought as many as five thousand slaves annually from the Sudan to Tripoli alone; slaving raids deep into the savanna "cleaned out" entire villages and, typically, returned with ten or fifteen thousand captives

classical one said...

Classical One, consider the Gaza Strip the same as the Warsaw ghetto pre-1944. Was it not a gigantic prison then? Well some with Gaza.

True Jamican,

In 1942 the Germans organized a campaign called operation "Grossaktion." In two months over 250,000 jews were were sent from the Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka, where they were all killed. The Germans filled cattle trucks with 100 people to a truck and sent them to death camps.

It's very hard to make comparisons to the Holocaust.

AbdulAlim said...

"And what of the Arabs that refused to stop the slave trade even after it was outlawed by England and France? Slavery still exists today in both Saudi Arabia and Sudan..."

The fact is that EVERYONE PARTICIPATED IN THE SLAVE TRADE INCLUDED BUT NOT LIMITED TO AFRICANS. Slavery was the economic life blood driving the world economies at that time just as OIL is the economic life-blood today. Africans as well as the rest of the world was very involved in the slave trade. There was a vital difference however. The American application of slavery was of a chattel like percularity where the African was reduced to a sub-human like status. NO WHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD was slavery practiced like it was in America. So much so that historians have classified it as a "perculiar institution of slavery".

I don't fall for the race card.

Grata said...

And what of the Arabs that refused to stop the slave trade even after it was outlawed by England and France? Slavery still exists today in both Saudi Arabia and Sudan.

"In the eighteenth century, Arab caravans brought as many as five thousand slaves annually from the Sudan to Tripoli alone; slaving raids deep into the savanna "cleaned out" entire villages and, typically, returned with ten or fifteen thousand captives"

I think the proof of which kind was the most devastating can be found in the numbers. There are about 2-3 million people of African descent in the Arab world. How many are in the Western World?

classical one said...

What's your point Grata? The argument I'm making is why all the discussion about the jews and the slave trade, jews and the civil rights movement? What exactly have the Arabs done to help blacks?

Anonymous said...

Fieldz. I love your blog, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on some points. First, the jews who presently are "occupying" that land which was inhabited by those that we call Palestinians are not of arab descent, they are from the area of the Caucusus region near Mongolia. Lineage-wise they are not jews in birth-right nor in the scriptural sense. They are converts to Judaism. Secondly, I ask you to get a copy of "The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews" if you want a proper assessment of just what kind of friends they are. You are correct, what is happening to the people of that land is nothing more than what was done to the Native-Americans here in America. While you are definitely right for keeping relations with those jews who stood by you. I believe it is an isolated event that happens every-so-often. I have jewish friends, who have arab friends. we converse, but we are not talking about the same generation that the Balfour Declaration forced on to that land. We are a different generation altogether, but those in power on all sides are the scriptural giants that are in the land that is given to us and God is telling us to deal with them it's not a religious war it's a war of outdated minds and true supremacy on it's last leg and it's not going out without a fight.

Peace!

Sharon from WI said...

First, the jews who presently are "occupying" that land which was inhabited by those that we call Palestinians are not of arab descent, they are from the area of the Caucusus region near Mongolia.

You are apparently unaware of the Cohen gene study which trace back lineage directly to Israel. This has been done on Ashkenazi Jews as well as Jews of color from Africa, India, etc. BF comes from a family of Russian Jews who can trace their lineage to Israel.

Lineage-wise they are not jews in birth-right nor in the scriptural sense. They are converts to Judaism.

Converts are perfectly acceptable in Judaism. Did you know that King David's grandmother, Ruth, was a convert? Look it up in the book. It's in there.

It's the wingnuts who espouse that Jews belief in nonsense like purity of blood, whatever that hell that is supposed to mean.

Sharon from WI said...

I am Jewish, but I am not a zionist.

Well hon, I am Jewish and I am a Zionist. Many Jews and non-Jews are. So what is your point?

RiPPa said...

Field, what I said above about Jews and the slave trade is no bullshit. Yes, it can and has been dismissed by the mainstream as some Farrakahn bullshit. But hey, its not; its the truth.

Do some research on my Trini brethren Professor Tony Martin, and see what I'm talking about. He's a scholar of African American studies.

If you don't believe me, you can check out the link below, and get the entire scoop.

http://52.thelastoutpost.com/video-2/zionist-jewism/the-judaic-role-in-black-slave-trade.html

RiPPa said...

Oh yeah...

"Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." - Menachem Begin (Israeli Prime Minister 1977-1983)

This is what the Zionist political ideology is about. This is the motivating factor for how those people are treated in Gaza.

Field, don't believe the hype thats the American media on this one bruh. Holla at the independent media outlets. You know, the ones that are not Jewish owned and controlled?

Anonymous said...

RiPPa;

Not much research is needed just note all the blacks with roots in states like Georgia that have Jewish last names. I got one because my ancestors were owned by some German-Jews.

Francis L. Holland Blog said...

Israel is a military monster created by US foreign aid, and that Government's transgressions into Gaza will win it a special place in hell.

To me, Israel is much like South African Apartheid: once the darling of American Governments like that of Ronald Reagan, but eventually to be disowned by the entire world so that peace instead of oppression can reign in that part of the world.

Francis L. Holland Blog said...

In fact, when anyone sides with Israel, they also side with George W. Bush, which is dubious company to be sure. That alone should make us rethink our positions.

Grata said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Grata said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Grata said...

"What's your point Grata? The argument I'm making is why all the discussion about the jews and the slave trade, jews and the civil rights movement? What exactly have the Arabs done to help blacks?"

My point Western Slavery was way more devastating and dehumanizing than the Arab slave trade. With Arabs there was aalways a potential for assimilation through marriage or by becoming muslim. And that could happen in a single slaves life time not generations. If that is not significant to you then, sorry.
I think on the whole they were more humane than the Westerners. And the fact that they have smaller populations there is an indicator of how less devastating it was to the populations of Africa.

How have Arabs helped blacks? Well that is a whole thesis. Arabs were in Sub Saharan Africa before the whites and they never took away their land or tried to colonize them. What did the Europeans do? Well you know that story.

If you speak to Muslim Africans, they consider the Arabs their brothers. A relationship way different from white Christians and Black Christians. I have never heard of segregation in religion with in the arab world. Arabs have had a long standing relationship with Africans, they have build schools, hospitals, mosques and funded businesses and individuals. Need I go on? Just because you don't see them on CNN doesn't mean they are not in collaboration.

So my point is simple, the devastation of 2-3 million lives and the devastation of lives more than 50 times that can never be equal unless of course you are one of those that believe that the white man did the African a favor by taking him out of Africa then I can't argue with you.

Grata said...

C1,

To your question again. What have Arabs done for blacks? Well in America, the Nation of Qatar has been quite helpful to Katrina Victims. To me this is not unusual. To Americans it may not be. This kind of stuff is all over the place in Africa.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-02-qatar-katrina_x.htm

Grata said...

C1,
Even better for you a CNN interview of the Emir of Qatar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbUNVdbG24g

Disgruntled Goat said...

field says:

"Uri, you make some interesting points. But you lost me when you used the phrase "ethnic cleansing". And I love Noam Chomsky, but I doubt if you can call him an objective voice in this debate."

reasonable people can disagree on ethnic cleansing. ilan pappe presents some good evidence for it, but it's still in the realm of analysis, not straightforward fact.

as for chomsky: no, he's not objective, and i don't agree with all his positions on the israel/palestine conflict. but he is a very informed and honest voice, and worth listening to. and he's at his best when he's comparing media propaganda with actual history.

Disgruntled Goat said...

"URI, ISRAELI ARABS SERVE IN THE ISRAELI MILITARY."

very few do, and they come from bedouin, druze and other minority groups that see themselves as ethnically distinct from the palestinians.

"Stuff a sock into your ignorance hole."

right away, sir.

Disgruntled Goat said...

disgruntled goat = uri, btw. too many accounts.

Anonymous said...

Wow!! I agree whole-heartedly with you, Field Negro.

Anonymous said...

While I am a fan of your work field, many Israeli historians such as Benny Morris would dispute many of your claims. Please take the time to read anything by Norman Finkelstein. While I am loathe to take sides- 60 yrs of occupation is a tough pill to swallow.

Even if it can be claimed that there was no Palestinian State to speak of, people still owned land and ancestoral homes.

Also, the ruling elite in Israel is largely of European descent, not Arabs. So called 'Black Jews' are treated as 2nd-class citizens.

I don't really understand, Field...

classical one said...

Grata,

Qatar only has about 1.5 million people, and it's far from representative of the Middle East. In my opinion the strongest country in the Middle East is Turkey. The y have a democracy and they separate church and state. Unfortunately, the rest of the region has some very serious issues. Consequently, Israel is the only non-oil state in the region with growth levels on par with the west and Asia.

Melanie said...

Sharon,

The point is that, in citing Jewish civil rights activists as part of the reason for defending Israel, he is making the mistake of equating Jews with Israel. I'm very tired of people doing that. Certain Jewish organizations have done a good job at pounding that association into all our brains and I will take any opportunity I can to challenge that.

Really? "hon"? Is condescension really necessary?

Ensayn1 said...

True Jamaican, there is NO PLACE ON THE PLANET that was not originally inhabited by what the world recognizes as black or African people. To believe that the reason black people inhabit Jamaica or any other country in the western hemisphere, is to believe the white man is the almighty walking the earth. To believe that you are the true Taino, thus the true Jamaican is to believe the false lie that Columbus saw someone that looked like a Mexican when he sent his people ashore in the Lucayos. We were here before you and will be here when you are gone. Just as we were in Canaan before the Arab and will be there when they are gone. Don't fool yourself into thinking you are the true Jamaican and black people are not. The slave trade as it's taught only serves to bloat your and white folk's egos.

Field, one thing True Jamaican did say which is true, is that Theodor Herzl (an atheist) and his ilk did seek out Uganda before working out the deal with England to settle in Palestine. Should they have settled in Uganda, taking the murderous actions they have taken against the Palestinians, many of whom are black people, begs this question. Would you feel this way if it were Uganda?

Grata said...

"Qatar only has about 1.5 million people, and it's far from representative of the Middle East"

I wasn't talking about Qatar's economy. I was siting their simple gesture to help blacks in the US.
As for the economics of the region,since there seems to be no objective information on Middle Eastern economies it not worth debating.
You can use the Western standard an figures all you want if it serves your purpose.

Grata said...

"Field, one thing True Jamaican did say which is true, is that Theodor Herzl (an atheist) and his ilk did seek out Uganda before working out the deal with England to settle in Palestine. Should they have settled in Uganda, taking the murderous actions they have taken against the Palestinians, many of whom are black people, begs this question. Would you feel this way if it were Uganda?"

Good point. The place they wanted to settle the Jews was the North Eastern part of Uganda bordering South Sudan and Kenya. The people inhabiting that area are nomads closely related to the Masais.
Darfur is North of that. You would have the Arabs pounding the Africans from the North and Israelis pounding them from teh South.

So I wonder if people would still be supporting the Israelis.

Anonymous said...

"Is that all you got to call any and everyone an Anti-Semite anytime they critique Israel."
Ask Geraldine Ferraro about that. She said "you can't criticize a black person without being called a racist". For that she called a racist AND got death threats. She is one of a million examples where stating simple facts (or questioning affirmative action) will get you in seriously hot water.
Also a lot of people, including a lot of black people, DO say anti-Jewish things then hide behind the Palestine issue to deter criticism (see Cynthea McKinnley). Saying Louis Farrakhan or Cynthea are only called anti-semetic for supporting the Palestinians is like saying Don Imus was called a racist for being against affirmative action.

Anonymous said...

This post was very informative, and I learned a lot. I am not very familiar with the Israel-Palestine wars. However, from what I have read,thus far, is that each side may be at fault in one way or another. Hamas is known terrorist group, but the Israeli government is not innocent. This situation is so complicated that I am not sure which side I am on because, like you, I feel that I should be more pro-Jews than Arabs, due to the history of Jews helping blacks in America. Yet, when I see women, children, and the elderly being killed, I can't help but feel despair and outrage; I am human. There must be a more civil way to work out these complex issues without bombs and guns and marginalization of any ethnic group into a slum.

Sharon from WI said...

Really? "hon"? Is condescension really necessary?

It isn't. And I apologize for being snarky. I am just a little sick and tired of Israel being vilified for defending itself.

Furthermore, I do know there's a difference between American Jews and Israelis. The thing is, I appreciate the American Jewish community for its involvement in the civil rights movement and I love Israel because it just is.

Anonymous said...

Some African Americans seem obsessed with picking up and holding to the light EVERY injustice a jew has ever committed. A previous posted said that a lot of people have "blind spots in regards to the Jews". Well a lot of blacks (and whites who don't want to be slurred as racist) maintain some huge blind spots when it comes to Africans.
There are more African Americas who are decendents of slave owners than American Jews. And if you look at the institution of slavery as a whole Africans have been far more enthusiastic about slavery then Jews ever have been.

Africans who are obsessed with calling Jews into account for slavery are really doing so for their own sleezy motives- to look for a reason to justify their sometimes KKK-like behavior towards Jews. Why aren't African Americans as damning towards their own families who happily engaged in this practice??
The reality is some African Americans have engaged in scapegoating Jews with as much enthusiasm as whites did to them.

Sharon from WI said...

Why aren't African Americans as damning towards their own families who happily engaged in this practice??

While I agree with your assessment of scapegoating Jews, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Our own family members--distant relatives, anyway--were slaves themselves, not slave owners.

LongTimeLurker said...

Another interesting post Field. I haven't visited in a while, but i came back specifically to see the commentary from you and posters concerning this issue.

I haven't got the energy or attention span to read through all of the posts to this entry, but I did get through half. Maybe I'm confused or don't fully understand, but, as per the sentiment of the pro/leaning-pro-Isreal side, are you really saying that Blacks should support Israel simply because of Jewish involvement in the Civil Rights movement? Did I understand this correctly? If I did, then what I don't understand is why I can't have an opinion of my own concerning whether or not I feel Israel is justified in what they're doing. Why should I blindly support them because of past Civil Rights support from a portion (like 10-20%) of their U.S. population? While I do feel inclined to, I'm not going to go into "Should Blacks not/support[insert race/ethnicity] because of [insert past event]?" because previous posters have already done this.

Anon 6:32: "Some African Americans seem obsessed with picking up and holding to the light EVERY injustice a jew has ever committed." I can't speak for all Blacks on this, but I for one steer clear of news (written and televised) concerning politics and, especially lately, Israel. I don't have a problem with [all] Jews. I DO, however, have a problem with people who support Jews blindly and feel they can do now wrong, Zionist Jews, and the Israeli government.

While I am younger then many of the posters here and don't have as much life experience or knowledge of world issues, I have noticed the habit of mainstream media outlets (local & national news, newspapers, and online news) of portraying Israel as the victim of this conflict and justified in every act of aggression; and of course, Palestine and it's countrymen being labeled the complete opposite. (Maybe my filters are out of whack, but that's how I see coverage of this issue and why I shun mainstream media). Given this, yes, I am obsessed with pointing out how Israel's faults and hypocrisy. My motives for doing such isn't to vilify and attack the global Jewish community. It's to point out that in this conflict, Israel's hands are no more clean than Palestine's. They are no better than their opposition and don't deserve to be labeled the sole victim in this conflict. The only victims are the innocent civilians on *both* sides who have been slaughtered or irreparably damaged by this ridiculous tit-for-tat, back and forth that's happening.

As for the rest of your post, you're going to need to be a little clearer on what you're trying to say in regards to the African Slave Trade. Also, i don't know where you live, but I have never encountered Blacks who are out for Jewish Blood in the same why White supremacists are out for ours. Not to say they don't exist, but I just haven't heard of significant amount of these types of Blacks.

RisingTide said...

Sharon,
What Israel is doing now should be vilified. Twenty dead israelis versus hundreds of confirmed dead Palestinians, many of them children.
And why? Because Bush will be out soon, and they feel this may be their last chance.
It is bubbemitzis, and not good for the Jews.
As much as I support Israel, I know Jews who believe that Israel will not exist in 50 years, and this current war does nothing to dispell this observation.

disgruntled one,
you make me smile. thanks for proving me wrong!

Sharon from WI said...

So, other than putting up with rocket attacks that have been going on since 2005, what would you have had Israel do?

Disgruntled Goat said...

rising tide:

thanks, but what did i prove you wrong about? BTW, it's "bubbemayses." bubbe = grandmother. mayses = tales.

sharon: what israel should have done was negotiate a ceasefire with hamas and respect it. hamas respected the last ceasefire until israel attacked the gaza strip on nov. 4, and probably would have agreed to another one had israel agreed to lift the (illegal, war criminal) siege as part of the agreement.

that's just a short-term stopgap, of course. for long-term security, israel must agree to a peace deal in accordance with UN security council resolution 242, as agreed to by the palestinians, the entire arab world, and the rest of the world except the united states.

west coast story said...

Good try, FN. I did not agree with you. Perhaps you could describe what it is like to live in lockdown in Gaza. Or explain to us where refugess in Gaza go when the IDF announces they are about to bomb the crap out of their strip of land? There is lack of water and food and medical supplies in Gaza and has been for the past 18 months. Hamas is not blameless in this conflict and I would not want to give the impression that they are not but Israel is very good at falling like a ton of bricks on people who can barely fight back.

Here's the thing, people in Israel and all over the world are getting tired of the Israeli governement's poor me syndrome and their violence. Israeli settlers are still building in the West Bank. How do you figure that Israel is serious about a solution to this conflict if right wing settlers are still running Palestinians off their land?

Kudos to the poster above who wanted to know how in hell Jewish involvement in the Civil Rights Movement outshines the attempted genocide of the Palestinian people by the Israeli governement? Do you not remember that it was Israel that supported apartheid government in South Africa? Because they needed all the friends they could get no mather how depraved they are? Israel spied on us with someone in the US military and when we caught the son of the bitch, AIPAC whined that he should be set free because he didn't really steal any information of value.

Just like the tide is turning in the US/Cuba stalement, Israel is going to find itself alone in the world if they continue down this path. Don't believe me, read the Israeli press. There is more criticism of the Israeli governement in Haaretz than there is any mainstrean US press and it comes form some Israelis and from people all over the world.

I supported Obama and all that but this is one issue I expect him to have no balls over. None. It's really too bad. I resent that my tax dollars are used to bomb families. This is a cynical move by Israel to take adavantage of the changing of the guard in DC. I feel sorry for the Israeli peoplde who have been led to belive that they can successfully bomb Palestinanas into submission. OR the other outrageous nonsense that some other Arad/Muslim county should take in the Palestinians. This is just like the racist bull that lead to the relocation of Native Americans with the thinking that a plains indian can survive in the desert. They are all perfectly interchangable, those pesky Indians. So too apparently are Arabs and Muslims. They don't have separtate cultures. If Europeans decide they want their land, Palestinians gotta go and move in with relatives. How colonial.

Study the history of this nonsense. Israelis are actually saying TODAY that the land where settlements are being built on the West Bank don't have anyone living on them. Didn't we hear the same lies about South Africa?

Most of the Jews who flocked to Israel did not have any connection to this land other than a shared religion. They came from Europe, Russia, and the US. There is no connection to the land for them. If you believe Israelis are entitled, when the Ohlone, or the Arapaho, or the Pequot show up at your front door asking for they keys to your house, I'm just sure you will happily comply. At least you can make a recent connection between them and the land they want back.

There is no good solution to this mess since Israel shouold have never been created in the first place. But it's here and now so how to create a lasting peace between a group that feels entitled and a group that feels it was raped and robbed?

Big JB from Philly said...

Now Field, you need to be chin-checked. For every so-called good deed that the so-called Jews have done, there are 10 other racial attrocities against 'your cousins' by the so-called Jews. Now, I say so-called because as you stated in your rant, 'Yes, there are even some black Jews'. Uh, Judah (one of Israel's 12 children, thus the 12 tribes of Israel), was black from Africa. Israel was black, from Africa. So, eight plus years of school, and what, no real historical research on your part. This was one of the first things, from you that I have to actually check YOU on brother!

RisingTide said...

dis,
you proved that you know enough about Israel to be yappin' ;-) Sometimes I start to thinking that everyone having an opinion that's left of plumb just doesn't bother knowing enough of the situation to talk rational like. [as is generally the case when people oogabooga about Iran].

Arab schools and mosques still teach that Israel should be wiped off the map. Government funded schools teach that Israel is the enemy. Governments fund Hamas and Hezbollah. I think it is no stretch to assume that the Arab Governments are not acting in good faith with any UN Resolution.

This is not to say that I disagree with you (wft is that resolution? i hate numbers@!), just that I understand the skepticism.

over 70% of Palestinians want to negotiate, and over 50% of Israelis, even negotiating with Hamas. As I said somewhere else, Israel would be better off negotiating with Hamas than Fatah, as hamas has more credibility.

as to bubbemitzis, humph. I don't read Yiddish, so I transliterate.

westcoaststory,
not to strawman, but it appears your view is the same as the Iranian "wipe Israel off the map"

I find that attitude immoral and unacceptable.

RisingTide said...

Big JB,
I've read the bible cover to cover, and that ain't in it. so post your damn sources or shut up!
naturally there are African Jews, and Arab Jews dark enough to be African too -- they're my relatives, for cripes sakes!
But, honestly, Abraham came from Ur -- that's Arabia, fertile Crescent, not Africa.

west coast story said...

Rising Tide you you are full of it. Just full of it. Yes, in every word and sentence I proposed wiping Israel off the map. How revealing of you to equate not building on the West Bank, not starving Palestinians, with wiping Israel off the map. Seriously, people like you do more to hurt Israeli credibility than anything I could say. I'm surprised you didnt call me an anti semite. After all, if anyone disagrees with the Israeli government, they must be an anti semint. Right? I notice you did not take issue with anything specific that I said except to take a big swipe that I must want Israeli eradicated. Keep talking, buddy. You are not helping your cause.

Why don't YOU read the Israeli press? You might actually learn something.

RisingTide said...

west coast story,
You said that it would have been better if Israel had not been created. This is equivalent to the iranian position, not the distortion that's been roaming the press.

You conveniently ignore the terrorism on both sides that occurred before 1948 -- what, you'd rather take two warring nationalistic entities and tell them to "play nice" while you wander away in diapers to go sit on a throne? (you being England, I suppose).

More and more, I favor a federalist solution, where both Israel and Palestine share certain services, including a military, and yet they can both keep national identity.

meh. I just got done reading Hillel Shenker and Uri Avnery. They read about like I do: Historically Stupid and Uncalled For Aggression That Will not do Israel any good.

do you know what a strawman is?

Disgruntled Goat said...

thanks, risingtide. much of my family lives in israel so i have strong personal interest in not seeing it self-destruct.

UNSCR 242 is the one passed shortly after the 1967 war, which says israel must withdraw from the occupied territories. it does not call for a palestinian state, because this was before the rise of palestinian political power. the general assembly since the 1970's has been passing resolutions in favor of a two state solution based on the pre-june 1967 borders.

i too distrust the arab governments. i also distrust the non-arab governments. governments by their nature respond to domestic interests, not to international law. but that's not a good reason not to negotiate peace agreements.

agreed about negotiation with hamas. i haven't seen numbers, but i gather fatah is about as popular as george w. bush. negotiating with fatah would be negotiating with collaborators, not the palestinian people.

Anonymous said...

"For every so-called good deed that the so-called Jews have done, there are 10 other racial attrocities against 'your cousins' by the so-called Jews."

For every so-called good deed that the Africans have done, there are a million other racial atrocities committed against others by the African "victims". Ever notice that the black man can name every single thing someone has ever done to him.. but forgets that his people have been engaged in slave owning since the beginning of time to this very day? That there are places in Africa today where the black man treats women and gays as bad as the white man ever did?
AfriKKKan Americans have treated jews and asians the same as the Klan treated them. Look at hate crime stats. When it comes to racial atrocities in this country blacks have been the perpetrator, not victim when in comes to Jews.

Oh, but forgot, those aren't hate crimes, they are "tensions between communities". They are only hate crimes when the black man is on the receiving, not giving end.

another anonymous said...

Lol, what an impressive display of historical insight! Those stupid Palestinians didn't even have a country in the first place! So it's only right for them to have their homes destroyed and be treated like crap. Hey the Jews bought the place, right? In that case it must be their country and they can do anything they want with the people who lived there before.

Maybe you're a little bit of your depth here, FN. You might wanna go back to whining about discrimination - and be glad that nobody's bombing your home.

RisingTide said...

dis,
Fatah isn't seen as collaborators so much as hopelessly corrupt.

field negro said...

"Maybe you're a little bit of your depth here, FN. You might wanna go back to whining about discrimination - and be glad that nobody's bombing your home."

Another anon.I am sure that if I lived in Israel your friends from Hamas would try to bomb my home. So yes, I am glad that I live right here in Philly. Although, one could argue, that given our history, that my home could be bombed here too. (It's a MOVE thing)As for being out of my "depth"; that must be some deep ass water, because I just don't see that happening. You, on the other hand, might want to test the waters before you jump in. ;)

befree said...

Befree Said:
Look this has zip to do credit...people are always trying to revise history. Jews were discriminated at the polls and in public accomodations as well as blacks. To falsely claim the march FOR the blacks instead of WITH black people is wrong. They had a stake in the Civil Rights Bill and the Voting Act as well. To cast this as they did it for us is inaccuate. Like I said they march for themselves and ain't nothing wrong with that..it's just the facts.

Jews involvement in the CRM was based on based on Jewish self-interest. Read speeches of Rabbi Stephen S. Wise Jewish Congressmen and NAACP leader he said as much and used this argument to get Jews marching...

Jews were not involved in civil rights because they were liberals - which they were - or because it was the right thing to do - which it was. What motivated Jews, rather, was Jewish self-interest...institutional discrimination against Jews in employment, education, and housing was still significant. The genesis of Jewish involvement in civil rights exemplifies a central principle of American Jewish life: Jews become involved in issues to the extent that they implicate Jewish security; communal self-interest is primary. Again, Wise and other leaders correctly defined civil rights as an issue at the core of Jewish security

RisingTide said...

befree,
both right and wrong, and wrong both ways.
Some Jewish financiers thought civil rights was an easy buck. So they supported it.
Some Jews believed, as I do, that Never Again don't just apply to us Jews! so we marched to be for someone else. Morals First.
I'm sure a few marched because they thought it would be good for the jews.
Things are never so black and white.

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