Tuesday, December 01, 2009

"Preaching To The Choir."


I heard the speech by his O ness tonight, but rather than a long post about it I am going to just leave it alone. I have already added my two cents to this debate. Besides, my mama always told me...well, let's just say that I am taking a wait and see attitude when it comes to Afghanistan. Get used to that word boys and girls, we will be hearing it a lot over the next three years. I won't be as tough on his O ness as some folks have been, but I am not going to pretend to like this new strategy, either. I wonder how we are going to pay for this new "surge"? I am willing to pay an added war tax, I wonder if my [right]wingnut friends who have been advocating for more troops will be willing to do the same? I doubt it. Lawmakers are supposedly jittery about this new war effort, and they should be. Thirty thousand troops at a million per man is a lot of dead presidents. Sorry, poor choice of words. It's a lot of money.

Still, West Point was a nice touch O man. All those men and women in uniform giving the commander in chief their undivided attention. I just hope you know what you are getting into . I know you said the comparisons to Vietnam aren't fair, but sorry, when it comes to war the American people tend to view all of them the same. When Bryan Williams starts leading "The Nightly News" with those coffins coming into Dover those comparisons will be made, fair or not.

So O man, for the record, I am not feeling this latest move, even though it beats being in Iraq;a place we had no business being in the first place. At least OBL might still be hiding out in the mountains of that region somewhere, (Thanks for blowing the chance to get him frat boy. Air strikes and Afghani intelligence? ) and we know that he is the mastermind behind the attacks that killed over three thousand Americans.

And speaking of Iraq: The evil one was at it again today. This guy just can't help himself. He won't shut up until AG Holder puts his ass in handcuffs.

“I begin to get nervous when I see the commander in chief making decisions apparently for what I would describe as small ‘p’ political reasons, where he’s trying to balance off different competing groups in society,” Cheney said.
“Every time he delays, defers, debates, changes his position, it begins to raise questions: Is the commander in chief really behind what they’ve been asked to do?”

Blah blah blah. Where is Elin Woods with those golf clubs when you need her?



88 comments:

LACoincidental said...

I don't agree with this, but I understand the geopolitics of the plan.

I think Obama is kind of stuck on this one -- pull out and leave a mess, stay longer and possibly egg on the Taliban or spin his wheels. None of the ideas are that great.

If we leave now and make the hippies happy, but piss off the rest of Asia for leave the Al-Qaida mess for them to fix. And don't forget the Teabaggers who will try to swiftboat him in '10. If we kept levels the same and get more of the same. Put more troops in, piss off the left and risk nothing changing at all.

Its a mess and God bless him. Not even the most hard lefty blowhard or biggest right wing loon would want the decision on their head right now.

Anonymous said...

Th Taliban aren't afraid. Announce a troop surge while you talk about a timetable? All that says is "wait it out, we won't be here for the long haul." And that is really what you have to be in for when you are talking about a colossal goat fuck like Afghanistan.

Anonymous said...

If we leave now and make the hippies happy, but piss off the rest of Asia for leave the Al-Qaida mess for them to fix.

Al-Qaida is in Pakistan. Until you go in there, you won't solve that problem. Nobody wants to go into Pakistan.

grinder said...

Obama is a hostage to the military-industrial complex, period.

Anonymous said...

A refusal to reign in the banking and financial sector, appointments given to top crooks like Geithner, no job creation programs or plans, continuation of pointless overseas wars, massive budget deficit spending... Change you can believe in!

Sammy said...

Time to bring back the draft.

Princefan said...

Next stop, Iran! So, we are all up and through the MidEast for this oil stuff. Iraq, Kuwait, now Afghanistan, a proxy war with Pakistan, a proxy war with Iran via Israel, setting up shop in Columbia to destabilize SA and intimidate Chavez in Venezuela. America is dead ass broke. The only mofos who have any money are Goldman Sachs, the rest of the banking cartel, the military industrial complex and the people who profit off war (GE/NBC, Boeing, etc). Just came from China and Asia begging those folks not to turn the dollar into 15 cents. It's not a good look right now.

Anonymous said...

Why has everyone forgotten that this is just what the Prez said he was going to do when he was campaigning? He ALWAYS said that Iraq was the dumb war, and we should be finishing the job (smartly) in Afghanistan. He said it OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I don't know about you, but I paid attention to everything he said.

There was really nothing new in his speech, he just filled in details like the number of troops being sent over there, and the timetable, but he said, BEFORE HE WAS ELECTED, that he was going to do just this.

Otherwise, I thought the speech was good. Very straightforward, thoughtful, not at all flowery or sound-bitey. Perfect for the occasion. It also illustrated the man's pragmatism. Frankly, I'm glad he's the Prez.

I don't drink soda pop or kool-aid, so I ain't had none of his, okay. I just think he's the right man for the job at hand, and I'm getting sick of the so-called democrats, progressives, liberals, or what have you doing the wingnuts' work. That's all.

SueCitySue

Joan said...

"giving him their undivided attention"

Like they had a choice. They were hostages. It's sickening the way the military are convenient photo-op props.

And of course, he didn't disappoint ...there was that obnoxious nose-up-in-the-air head tilt at the end where he thinks he's about to be "inspiring".

Blech.

Anonymous said...

"Time to bring back the draft."

Yes, it is time for it. The draft should have never ended anyway.

grinder said...

If we leave now and make the hippies happy

Hippies? I haven't seen a hippie for at least 35 years.

LACoincidental said...

'Hippies' are still around, grinder. They're just a lot crunchier, more violent and cynical than their peacenik parents. Or, they're just burning for their AARP cards.

Anonymous said...

I hate to see this BLACK MAN, caught up in this WHITE MAN'S MESS!

I pray that BUSH and CHENEY and the rest of those BANDIT'S, were listening to the speech as well as looking at the face's of those YOUNG PEOPLE!

BUSH went after SADAAM HUESSEIN and for what? for OIL!!!! these GREEDY WHITE MEN should be in PRISON, and I Pray to God, these THUG'S will be locked up one day!

Since when did WHITE FOLK'S care about people of COLOR? since when did WHITE FOLK'S care about anything but MONEY and more MONEY! and now BARACK is mixed up in this MESS! he is trying to UNTANGLE the WHITE MAN'S MESS! and where is BUSH? he is Responsible for all of this MAYHEM! he should be SHIPPED to AFGHANISTAN!!!!

Joan, come on out and say it, the President was being a UPPITY PRESIDENT! this is the reason we are in this mess today, it's people like you, that just don't know your PLACE! you see, no doubt you are a WHITE girl/ and you are no doubt a SARAH supporter, I can tell you people a MILE a way, you all write the same RACISM! you may write in CODE, but, you just don't seem to write it GOOD enough!for in the end, you ALL leave a TRAIL of STENCH behind each and every time you appear!

iseeisee

BigmacInPittsburgh said...

I support Prsident Obama in his effort to end this war.
He seems to be in a damn if you do,and damn if you don't postion.

Bob said...

I want to see who our "allies" are, how many soldiers they'll send, & how much money they'll contribute. World's freakin' cops, that's us.

Swiff said...

LACoincidental kinda reflected my thoughts...

Its the Kobiyasha Maru from Star Trek. The No-Win Scenario.

As bad as this is politically for Obama, a dedicated withdrawl would be a political nightmare. The Base and the Ron Paul crowd would Saint him for it, but alot of the independents who supported withdrawl would be turning pale and damning Obama as soon as they saw the Youtube videos of Talibanis setting schoolgirls on fire and beheading homosexuals. They don't want another 'Nam, but they damn sure don't want another "Fall of Saigon" either.

The Idealists who pretend that withdrawl would be peaches n cream are lying to themselves.

Obama knows the implications of this decision. Dude walked the graves at Arlington and saw the caskets come back at Dover. And yet The Right can't give him credit for SHIT. Anything he does, he does because he's EVIL as far as they're concerned. How long before Beck or Limbaugh start putting some ridiculous racial angle on all this?

No-Win Scenario.

Prayers for the troops and the men who command them.

Sam D said...

SueCitySue,
You are so right. I wish I could say it that well.

People don't really listen or they hear only what they want to hear. I guess Obama couldn't say that this plan is the least bad alternative open to him, to us.

Of course, this decision will piss off almost everyone. I may skip my usual blogs for the next few days.

Oh, Joan, those hostages sure ran off the moment they were freed, didn't they? Or were they ordered to crowd around him to try to shake his hand?

Shady_Grady said...

Why isn't the US still in Vietnam?

Why aren't the French still in Algeria?

The mightiest military machine to ever exist on the planet has been unable to impose its will on Afghanistan. Why is that?

The US has been fighting in Afghanistan for eight years with no end in sight. Maybe doing more of the same might not be the most intelligent move.

How many more dead civilians (men, women and children) will it take before people realize that this is a pointless war?

I guess the Afghans that will be wounded, killed and tortured over the next year are really lucky that the person ordering this is a Nobel Peace Prize winner. I'd hate to think of how bad they'd have it were it a man of violence in charge.

McCain or Obama-you can have any President you want as long as he escalates the war. We are indeed fortunate that Obama has looked deep within and found the political courage to continue the slaughter and occupation of Afghanistan.

Shady_Grady said...

Unconvincing Flop

socrates said...

First time listener, first time caller for this blog. I like it. I like it a lot.

Look, I'm not trying to belittle how wonderful it is that an African-American has finally become President. But to me, it's similar to the Red Sox finally winning it all. At what point can we say so what, and that this guy is one of the biggest fakes of all time? How did Clarence Thomas work out for we the people? How wonderful is it that Sandra Day O'Connor broke the female barrier for Supreme Court? Obama is no Jackie Robinson is what I'm saying.

It's awesome that racism will eventually go away. It might take decades or centuries, but it will end. It's a dumbass way of looking at things.

The big problems are the military-industrial complex and capitalism. There's a lot of inane chatter going on in our society. TV sucks. Deep thought is rare. The key is to outlaw war and provide work, food, housing, health care, and education for all. It's that simple. Obama is failing on all levels. Does that mean I am a Republican disinfo agent? No. I'm glad Obama is in over McFreedomFries. Yet, I am deeply disappointed that Obama hasn't seized the opportunity to help save the planet. I guess Martin Luther King would be too old to be President, if he were still alive. That's the kind of President we need. This dude named Mike Cuapano is running for Teddy Kennedy's seat in Massachusetts. His ads look promising. He's against war and the Patriot Act. Obama looks like a good, normal guy on the surface. Too bad he has turned out to be a Republican in progressive clothes.

field negro said...

Amen Sammy!

"The only mofos who have any money are Goldman Sachs, the rest of the banking cartel, the military industrial complex and the people who profit off war (GE/NBC, Boeing, etc). Just came from China and Asia begging those folks not to turn the dollar into 15 cents. It's not a good look right now."

Princefan, you have my attention.

SueCitySue, I heard what he said when he was running for office, and I didn't like it then. But you are right, he did campaign on that platform. But he also said he would put more pressure on Pakistan, and I don't think he knew how corrupt the leadership in Afghanistan was then. (See what Anon 11:19 pm said)

"Oh, Joan, those hostages sure ran off the moment they were freed, didn't they? Or were they ordered to crowd around him to try to shake his hand?"

*slap*

Welcome "socrates", I love how you speak your mind, you will fit right in here. BTW, I am feeling the pic. :)

Meezie said...

My godson is one of those "hostages." I can assure you, they weren't ordered to do anything re: the President, save for wait in the auditorium for a lengthy period of time for security purposes. When the President won, some of these "hostages" were NOT pleased and it was -- according to someone who IS there -- racial and political (Black and Democratic president). However, the cadets DO support their commander-in-chief. There are TONS of volunteers for anything associsted with him and any possible West Point appearance/collaboration. So, trust me: those who rushed him did so because they SUPPORT him. And many of them appreciated his respect for their truth and dignifying the ones who will command those troops with his presence.

Jody said...

For every Afghan "taliban/al qaeda" fighter that is killed by this surge, another angry afghan fighter will arise. All they will see is occupier. And, sadly, Obama is NOT looking at the history of Afghanistan if he does not see that the Afghan people hate occupiers even more than they may hate taliban or al qaeda. As long as bombs are dropping on them, as long as soldiers are shooting them, they will never see us as "helping" them. And, their only government has been shown to be a corrupt government. Given all of this, I honestly don't know why Obama thinks 30,000 more troops are going to change any of the above. I am disappointed and saddened that he still hasn't figured out that we cannot bomb our way to peace.

thecalmthelove said...

hippies are violent? that's a good one.

maria said...

hippies are violent? that's a good one.

i am trying to be patient. but i sat watching with my 16-year-old son and daughter, and realized they could both potentially be drafted, and that made me sick.

and as i was scanning the faces of the kids at west point, i mentally erased those who might die because of this.

i wish instead he had started a drawn down NOW. it also will be interesting to see if congress gets in the act and says no. i think they only power they have tho is appropriations--not troop levels.

i do believe all humans are connected and that our welfare affects others. i do believe that women in afghanistan are suffering...but so are members of my immediate family.

this is a war we can't afford economically -- and i also got a little frightened by obama's words that we have a moral obligation there, and in pakistan that we have to support a democratic form of govt. reminded me WAY too much of bush!!

Clark said...

I don't see where the Pres has any choice, nor do we. Unless we want a middle east dominated by Muslim extremists and terrorist attacks on U.S. soil on an ongoing basis we must defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan and in Pakistan. The fact that the governments of both countries are unreliable notwithstanding.

BTW, Field, whats up with your RSS feed?

FLYNAVY said...

He’s decided to send an additional 30,000 troops for 30 months. That’s not a strategic decision. That’s a new-car warranty.
& announcing your pullout date is never a good move....course even the Afghans laughed a little @ that date so I guess it's not chiseled in stone.
Didn't hear a single "hooyah" from the West Pointers during the speech.

uptownsteve said...

Bad move Barack and unfortunately Afghanistan is going to be your undoing just as Vietnam was LBJ's.

The initial invasion of Afghanistan was supposedly to find Bin Laden and remove the Taliban.

The emotional response to 9/11.

The initial attacks removed the Taliban from power but then Bush focused attention on Iraq and it's oil.

Further feeding off America's anger at "ragheads" whoever and wherever they may be.

Since then the Taliban has regained strength. And the tenuous Afghan government has seen threats to it's stability from increased insurgent activity.

Vietnam showed that fighting insurgents and guerrillas on their historical turf is a no win proposition.

Then you still have to deal with Iraq.

Sorry bruh.

30,000 more troops over the next 6 months just means 30,000 more targets.

Should have admitted a mistake and cut bait.

black talk express said...

These are the discussions you have "before" you invade a nation. How many of you were okay with invading Afghanistan 8 years ago? Probably quite a few. You really can't destroy a country and then just leave. We own Afghanistan and Iraq. For more than a few years. I'm sure President Obama is aware of that. There's more to this than just thr troops. The President had sent many civilians into Afghanistan to assist with agriculture,healthcare and the like but he's had trouble recruiting because of safety issues. I'm positive he's thinking of that as well. Grow up lefties and stop whining. Last night while the President was giving his speech the senate was working late into the evening on healthcare. I haven't seen the senate work so hard since before Reagan. Certainly not during the Bush years. Our President is working

uptownsteve said...

Is "blacktalkexpress" a black righty?

Tell me, what was the purpose and goal of the Iraq invasion?

If Bush hadn't taken his eye off the ball in Afghanistan and dug in for 2 years we might have seen some positive results like a stable government and the capture of Bin Laden.

Thanks to Bush and the evil one, we own Afghanistan and Iraq.

I also wish BO would have made THAT point clearer last night.

It's the righties who created this mess.

Roderick said...

For all of those who support this 'surge' could you please explain what do you think is going to accomplished in the next three years that have not been accomplished in the past eight?

Now Afghanistan has a government whose legitimacy is questionable and our tax dollars via the US military is propping it up.

Politically, I can't believe that Obama used a version of 'we have to fight them over there unless we want to fight them over here' rhetoric but the people who agree with him will still find a reason not to vote for Democrats or him but those who supported him this is just another reason to sit out 2010 and 2012.

I am so glad that I didn't vote at all November 2008 because I knew Obama was suspect after taking millions in Wall Street campaign contributions.

Look out for President Palin in 2012:-(

maria said...

i do not believe we "destroyed" afghanistan in any way, shape or form. it was even less of a nation before we went in than before.

maria said...

i mean than it is now.

Frank Drackman said...

You Knee-Grows are hilarious...
Kept waiting for the President (Peace be upon Him) to pull off his mask revealing "W" underneath..(You know, like in those "Mission Impossible" movies??)
200,000 troops in the Middle East, Bush's Tax cuts in place for another year, Gay Marriage still ill-Legal in 45 States...
Its almost like McCain won...
Umm you DO know they ain't gettin pulled out in 2011??

Frank

Anonymous said...

You really can't destroy a country and then just leave.

Afghanistan has been destroyed for at least thirty years. All we did was move some rubble around.

cinco said...

There's no easy way to leave, and no easy way to continue to stay, quite a quandrum...

I'm all for doing what we can for a very breif time and getting the Hell out. Let someone else have enough 'balls', resources, concerns for others to step in and help and/or lead...we have our own problems in America.

We are not the Saviour for the world, we can't even save ourselves from ourselves.

krystalxlyte said...

it was a difficult choice but he can't win for losing.

Republicant's won't give him credit or will say 'i think this is a wise decision but deficit...taxes...' and other teabagger cacophony and the dems in the house are a step away from being pacifists where as if someone came up to them and punched them they'd do nothing but throw up a peace sign and hand out flowers...its time out for that.

the time for bickering amongst dems is over, we need to get behind president Obama, who is trying to make a sober and cautious effort to end this war and just because he's not delivering change as fast as we want it we gotta learn to man/woman-up and be ride or die like many other countries and Americans during WWII some of whom turned the vanity fair lingerie factories into bases that manufactured parachutes for the troops!

What greedy conglomorate self indulged communist corporation have we today who do such things.. that we know of and endorse? people used to go out and buy/advertise war bonds and such...when was the last time the country came together to make such efforts under a leader who is being clear cut, precise, and honest as possible.

its not like he got up there gave the for those of you who underestimate us..bring it on speech..which alone practically shit on 200 years worth of credibility and honor that we had as a country.

if anything we should have learned from the British, the Russians that Afganistan is the place where empires go to die...cheney, when he was an advisor for the first bush reich, knew that..and if the justice system could get anymore just, him, george and rove would be before the war council, roasting on an open fire, where they should be, rather than sqawking to undermine this administration because theirs failed..


my prayers are with the troops and the Obama admin. in these times that try mens souls.

Amanda said...

Grinder - If you want to see hippies just come on down to Nederland, CO.

Anonymous said...

Did Dick felt this way when he cowardly got his 5 deferments.

“Every time he delays, defers, debates, changes his position, it begins to raise questions:

Anonymous said...

Did Dick felt this way when he cowardly got his 5 deferments.

“Every time he delays, defers, debates, changes his position, it begins to raise questions:

Swiff said...

"I guess the Afghans that will be wounded, killed and tortured over the next year are really lucky that the person ordering this is a Nobel Peace Prize winner. I'd hate to think of how bad they'd have it were it a man of violence in charge."

WON'T BE NO KILLIN' OR TORTURE WHEN THE TALIBAN TAKES OVER AGAIN, RIGHT?

If you gonna advocate withdrawal, be real about what you're advocating, cuz. Andrew Sullivan kept it real by admitting there would be alot of carnage were we to leave ASAP. The whole situation is a vicious Catch-22.

Also, the biggest and most obvious difference between Vietnam and Afghanistan imho, (and the one that Obama balked at mentioning, for obvious reasons) is that the Army we have in Afghanistan is far superior to the Army that we sent to Vietnam:

"Readers of Norman Schwartzkopf's memoir, 'It Doesn't Take A Hero' will recall his description of the state of the U.S. Army in the 1950s. At least that part of it stationed in the United States was a hollow force of badly trained conscripts. Its equipment was ill-maintained and its senior officer corps consisted disproportionately of World War II veterans who would not otherwise have had jobs. This was the Army that was sent to fight in Vietnam, with what results we know."

And that's before you consider the effects of ultra-cheap Vietnamese heroin, widespread fragging, retarded war plans and The Draft.....we had a messed up ass Army in Vietnam.

In '02, I thought the current military would have a rough time toppling Saddam Hussein. I thought the strategy of drastically lowering violence in Iraq with a surge and a new strategy was....impossible and the country was going to collapse by 2008. From what I've read and heard from McCrystal's briefing today, this military truly thinks they can make dramatic improvement by 2011. They know if things only get worse, the war will become absolutely toxic to the public, nevermind the Kos crowd, and asking Obama for MORE troops would force him to pull the plug or really wind up like LBJ.

This could work.

Ernesto said...

Afghanistan is in a civil war. We are backing one side over the other in that civil war because of the same sad combination of fear mixed with arrogance mixed with ignorance that brought us all our other unholy foreign entanglements.

Obama seems to be always pandering to the right in order to neutralize their attacks against him. It's a political calculation that in this case is leading to some very bad policy.

Swiff said...

Field's post about the Afghan surge - 41 comments

Field's post about THIS STUPID TIGER WOODS BULLSHIT - 151 comments


Man, wtf is that about? Obama should've dissed a cop at the end of the Afghan speech..........Field woulda got like 130 comments by midnight.

Don said...

I hate to say it, but this strategy of Obama is a joke. And this comes from an avid Barack and Michelle Obama supporter.

Thing is - Americans want to win the war with half the troops. I say, send all of 'em, all at once D-day invasion style and just get it over and done.

During the Iraq invasion (exactly what it was) the United States accomplished a "flooring" in about two weeks and everything proved to be in order. At least somewhat.

So this logic leaves me convinced how the the occupation force should be at least on par with the number of initial troops in Iraq.

Lastly, I also must add, the one thing I perhaps did admire about McCain: He was all about one gigantic push instead of a bunch of guys standing around on street corners waiting to be ambushed.

Because then, Mister President, it does appear to be another Vietnam.

Ernesto said...

Swiff...the comment count bears out a problem I have long found frustrating. People like escapism. Hollywood drama is much more interesting to roughly 3x more people than D.C. politics. It's part of the reason so much shit in this country can be gotten away with.

Swiff said...

"It's a political calculation that in this case is leading to some very bad policy."

No, its about Pakistan's nuclear weapons at the end of the day. He's not foolish enough to think this strategy would "win over the Right".

If he wanted to win over the NecCon Right (shudder), he would've given McCrystal the full 40,000+ troops as soon as he asked for them, with no talk of a timetable whatsoever, and presented it in a jingoistic, happy flag-waving speech that denounces "Islamofascism" and uses the words "victory" and "win" 40,000 times.

In other words, the Right would only be happy if he handled the decision like Dubya.

Swiff said...

Don -

If sending 30,000 is unpopular, how wildly unpopular would sending 300,000 be?

Swiff said...

Ernesto -

LOL, you ever read the Huffington Post dog? Shit's supposed to be a politics site but the most popular stories are always about titties popping out of celebrity award show dresses.

That's the other thing sadly working in Barack's favor...the American Attention Span. If there aren't big horrible attacks in the news every day and the casualty rate slows, and there's a steady stream of celeb scandals, sudden celeb deaths, celeb trials, and of course, plenty of missing white children to keep the cable news networks busy......watch the average American fuck around and forget about this war. Like they did from 2003 to 2008.

Things would be much different if there were a draft.

LACoincidental said...

Swiff, we're in agreement. Nobody wants to go to war unless you're a gun nut with fantasies of 'Medal of Honor'. But, there are way too many political chess pieces at play just to pack and say 'fuck it' in six months.

Now here is a question for all of the folks who are ripping up their Obama t-shirts and hollering about the surge. Fine, he screwed up in your eyes. What you gonna do about it? Blog? Not vote?

They're crazy and dangerous, but the Teabaggers are onto one thing -- you don't like something, get out in the street and scare the beejeezus out of power brokers in a deliberate and organized fashion. Put pressure on these folks at the polls in a deliberate and organized fashion. Notice embolden the same statement twice. The left is good at pouting and not very good at organizing to get things done.


You don't like the surge? Fine, join your local anti-war group and protest. And if they're run like typical anti-war group (meaning disorganized college kids and old hippies who trash talk in coffee shops and call that a 'meeting') take the organization over do some real work. Bitch Less, Act More!

grinder said...

I love the commentary on CNN and MSNBC about Obama's speech being more straightforward. I laughed out loud. Come on, it's the same shit sandwich, different wrapper.

This is about what it always has been about: money and oil, which means money. Both of these wars are the best arguments for alternative energy I've ever seen. Not that it will ever happen. The oil companies will never let it happen.

As for the pullout date, there's another joke. He said he'd start pulling them out by the summer of 2011. Didn't say how many, how fast, or when they'll all be home. You can drive, well, a whole army, through the loopholes in those withdrawal targets.

"Sir, would you like your shit sandwich in a McDonald's wrapper, or would you feel better if we called it Burger King?"

BTW, Sen. Feingold of Wisconsin wants to cut off the money. Now there is change I can believe in.

uptownsteve said...

Swiff sez

"Also, the biggest and most obvious difference between Vietnam and Afghanistan imho, (and the one that Obama balked at mentioning, for obvious reasons) is that the Army we have in Afghanistan is far superior to the Army that we sent to Vietnam:"

I would hope so, 40 years and a few trillion dollars later.

However the Afghans aren't armed with bow and arrows and however poorly Schwarzkopf wants to describe the state of the US Army in Vietnam, it's artilllery and munitions were vastly superior to the Vietnamese.

Same situation.

Guerilla insurgents, rough terrain, populous and committed enemy.

And Swiff, what exactly would your definition of "victory" in Afghanistan be?

Roderick said...

LACoincidental said...
You don't like the surge? Fine, join your local anti-war group and protest. And if they're run like typical anti-war group (meaning disorganized college kids and old hippies who trash talk in coffee shops and call that a 'meeting') take the organization over do some real work. Bitch Less, Act More!

Wasn't the nomination of Obama as the Democratic nominee supposed to have been the culmination of what you described?

That is why those against these insane wars are so disappointed in Mr Hope and Change...blah blah blah but not me since I a am natural cynic.

Shady_Grady said...

"WON'T BE NO KILLIN' OR TORTURE WHEN THE TALIBAN TAKES OVER AGAIN, RIGHT?

If you gonna advocate withdrawal, be real about what you're advocating, cuz. Andrew Sullivan kept it real by admitting there would be alot of carnage were we to leave ASAP. The whole situation is a vicious Catch-22"


I don't know that Andrew Sullivan of all people has a particularly good record for prognosticating. After hundreds of thousands have died, Sullivan admitted that he MIGHT have been wrong about the Iraq war. Thanks, Sully...

The level of violence in Afghanistan has increased dramatically since the US invasion and occupation. Tens of thousands of Afghan civilians have been killed. Escalating is only going to make that worse. The US has killed FAR more Afghans than the Taliban has, which is probably why most of the Afghans seem not to be be too enthused with the US presence. After all, the Taliban weren't calling in air strikes on wedding parties. The drone strikes and fighting in Pakistan's Swat province have created between 1-2 million refugees in Pakistan.

After the British left India, hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million Indians and Pakistanis were killed in the Partition. Does that mean the British should have stayed? Similar events (though lesser numbers) happened after the French finally left Algeria. Does that mean the French were right and that the Algerians were hopeless savages that needed outside control? The Portuguese would make the same claim about Angola and Mozambique and so on and on. The invader ALWAYS states that he is needed and is indeed indispensable. This is a self-serving claim.

LACoincidental said...

Roderick -- did Black slaves win their freedom after Lincoln was elected? No, it took a damn war.

The election was the easy part. Changing how our government and its people do business -- one man, no matter how sincere can do it alone. Did the civil rights movement start with 'I have a Dream'? No, the modern civil rights movement stretches as far back as the 1900. The NAACP had been around for over 10 years by the time MLK and Malcolm were even conceived. Adam Clayton Powell and Marcus Garvey were fighting struggle long before the preacher from Atlanta marched on DC.

Change is for long haul. Anything worth fighting for is worth the long fight.

Be cynic all you want, but don't complain when the country goes to pot because folks like you and I, who saw and injustice and said nothing, sat on your hands waiting for Jesus to return.



The cynicism on the left and the ignorance on the right is what has crippled this country.

If people were more engaged in politics than whether Tiger Woods was having an affair or missing white girls, Sarah Palin would still be a weather girl in Anchorage, Alaska and Obama would be listening to Kuicinich on almost everything.

Shady_Grady said...

"The left is good at pouting and not very good at organizing to get things done."

Hmm, sometimes, sometimes not. That same left which is dismissed as unrealistic or pouty was rather important at getting Obama the Democratic nomination and the Presidency.

So if the President wants to tack right over the next three years, good luck to him. But in 2012 he may find that a few people on the "whiny pouty left" may not be so quick to believe in hope and change..

Shady_Grady said...

"BTW, Sen. Feingold of Wisconsin wants to cut off the money. Now there is change I can believe in."

Yes. Until Congress is willing to stand up and refuse to allocate money or allow this war, it will continue. Citizens have to organize to demand this. It was done successfully to end the Vietnam war.

socrates said...

Thanks for the welcome field negro. Man, I'm having trouble saying your name, like I'm not allowed to. I must come clean. I'm a white dude.

I'm the infamous socrates. I found your link from a right wing website called MyLeftWing. I've posted some at Francis' Truth About Kos blogspot. I won't get into any of my stuff now, just thought I'd acknowledge your hello.

True story. I have a big mouth at times. I'm talking outside a supermarket. I don't remember how it got going, but a few of the people I was talking with were African-American employees on break. It was going good. Somedays I can belt out thoughts as good as the next bloke or lass. But then I said, "I'm more black than Clarence Thomas." Cue up the sounds of tires screeching. The African-American dudes didn't appreciate it. They were young guys, and after which I realised yet again how one needs to know their audience. There was truth to what I said, but unless you know someone, perhaps one needs to hold back until people feel comfortable around one's individual quirkiness.

The problems are deep. Everything seems scripted. We're missing people who used to speak truth to power. Like John Lennon. MLK. Now we've got Rosie O'Donnell and Charles Barkley.

Obama reminds me of that Robert Redford movie The Candidate. He says all the right things, or he'll say the wrong things but get away with it because Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, et al were so creepy.

It's tough not to give up and be cynical and say there aren't too many differences between the two parties. Someone has to get through to Obama and turn him into a Gorbachev. This is not the time in history for some pretty sophist to lead the way. I wanted to say pretty boy. But I didn't go there. But then I guess I just did. I used to refer to the spy industry creeps as spooks, but Francis got through to me on that one.

I love Bob Marley.

I will stand by hippie ideals 'til the day I die. I appreciate Cindy Sheehan. In regards to the blogosphere, I believe it is a cesspool. I agree with comments above how Huffington Post is a joke. I also agree with Maria's reaction to anyone stereotyping peaceniks as violent. I sense a ramble coming on, so I'll stfu.

To the dude who wonders why the Tiger Woods thread is getting more comments than this one, to me, it's like sometimes we all just need a diversion. Many of us are quite cynical with the internet. We used to have faith in it as a catalyst for positive, social change. Those days are long gone for me. If it wasn't for my addiction to the 0's and 1's, I'd have been long gone by now.

uptownsteve said...

Are you the same Socrates who used to drive the goobers nuts over at frontpagemag.com?

Roderick said...

LACoincidental said...
The election was the easy part. Changing how our government and its people do business -- one man, no matter how sincere can do it alone.

And that is why I was hoping that Obama would lose the election and McCain or better Palin would have become President.

Taking back the government by the people is going to be a grassroots effort and unfortunately the right-wing wackos are the ones who are organizing while the Left waits and accepts more betrayals from Obama on a daily basis.

The Left has too much invested in Obama for the next four or eight years to actually tear him down unless they run someone against him in the primaries and ensure whoever the Republican nominee in 2012 wins.

LA sez: The cynicism on the left and the ignorance on the right is what has crippled this country.

No what has crippled our country along with corporate lobbyists is how small population conservative white states are over-represented in Congress especially the Senate and have disproportionate power in thrawting any type of change that the Left wants

Roderick said...

BTW Uptown, we're lobbying to get you reinstated at BR but Shay isn't giving in.

Swiff said...

"I don't know that Andrew Sullivan of all people has a particularly good record for prognosticating. After hundreds of thousands have died, Sullivan admitted that he MIGHT have been wrong about the Iraq war. Thanks, Sully..."

"Might", my ass. Dude talks about his support for the Iraq War like its the most shameful thing he's ever done. Anyone who reads him regularly knows this already.

"After the British left India, hundreds of thousands, perhaps a million Indians and Pakistanis were killed in the Partition. Does that mean the British should have stayed?"

Stayed long enough to ensure some damn order during the Partition instead of the genocidal anarchy that ensued? Yes. Yes they fucking should have. The handling of the partition is one of the most fucked up, evil things the British Empire ever did and I wouldn't be surprised if they did it on purpose as "punishment".

"Some critics allege that British haste led to the cruelties of the Partition.[14] Because independence was declared prior to the actual Partition, it was up to the new governments of India and Pakistan to keep public order. No large population movements were contemplated; the plan called for safeguards for minorities on both sides of the new border. It was an impossible task, at which both states failed. There was a complete breakdown of law and order; many died in riots, massacre, or just from the hardships of their flight to safety. What ensued was one of the largest population movements in recorded history."


"Yes. Until Congress is willing to stand up and refuse to allocate money or allow this war, it will continue. Citizens have to organize to demand this. It was done successfully to end the Vietnam war."

Yeah, and the Democrats paid a dear political price for ending it like they did.

Oh and citizens WON'T organize, not enough to make a difference. Wanna know why? Because there's no draft. Which means this shit is another boring news story to the Average American, another video that they switch off so they can watch reality show starlets shit on mansion floors and pretend to fall in love with strangers. Mein Gott people, do you remember how fucked up Iraq was in 2006? Do you remember how much bloodier it was than Afghanistan? Do you remember how "the masses" TOTALLY DID NOT RISE UP AND MARCH ON D.C? You got your Code Pinks, your Vets for Peace, the real diehard pacifist types like my pastor, and other assorted antiwar left-wingers. They'll show up for the march.....like they always have. Meanwhile, John Q. Public will continue to concern himself with more pressing issues, such as playing Madden, watching cute animal Youtubes, downloading internet porn, and breaking drug laws while recoiling in mortal fear at any serious proposal to end the Drug War. Don't you get it? At some point Bill Maher is right and you have to hold the American people accountable for the ridiculous, unsustainable beliefs and habits they insist on maintaining.

I'll wrap things with a Andrew Sullivan quote on that note.

"We cannot have the adult conversation about how much terrorist damage the US should tolerate compared with the costs of trying to control this phenomenon at its source. We are not mature enough as a country to have that conversation. And Obama has decided it isn't worth confronting that question now."

And for the record, my idea of "victory" is being able to drastically drawn down troops without Afghanistan exploding and taking Pakistan with it. I have no Dubya style illusions of transforming these Middle Eastern hellholes into Fantasy Island.

And with that, I'ma try to chill out on this for a bit. I need a break from all this news and opinion I've been digesting all day. Ish is heavy, man.

Ernesto said...

Swiff said: He's not foolish enough to think this strategy would "win over the Right".
------------------

Key point: I said he was out to neutralize their attacks, not win them over.

If he were to do the sensible thing here, which is to get out ASAP, he would face a ton of blistering BS from the usual suspects about being "soft on terror", "caving in to our enemies", "desecrating the dead of 9/11", etc. etc. etc., ad nauseum.

Matthew Hoh was the top civilian U.S. official in Afghanistan and recognized the character of the civil war between the Pashtuns (Taliban) and the Tajiks (Northern Alliance). He either quit or was forced out, because he felt a continued foreign military presence would be a waste of our blood and money. From his resignation letter:

"The U.S. and NATO presence and operations in Pashtun valleys and villages, as well as Afghan army and police units that are led and composed of non-Pashtun soldiers and police, provide an occupation force against which the insurgency is justified."

If only Obama was willing and able to explain this reality to the (unfortunately celebrity-obsessed) American public.

R. Maldonado said...

Hey Swiff, what unit were you in during your time in Iraq? If you haven't been yet, and you're not enlisting, then you are a chickenhawk. If you feel Afghanistan and the O-man's strategy are worth the lives of my comrades and me, then why don't you come out and play too? bak-bak-bakaa!

Krystalxlyte the same goes for you, sister. You support the war? Then get out there and into a uniform...Equality and all that.

I apologize for the vitriol in this comment, but I feel it necessary. We're talking about sending our people, with our blessing, to go kill other people. What people are being killed? Why are we killing them? Who is killing our people? How much does the war cost? Who is paying? Who is being paid?

Don't talk about 'left' and 'right.'

krystalxlyte said...

Cosign with La @ 3:08

I mean really, there is nothing else in life that some of these people calling themselves patriots want than to see Obama and the country fail. Too many of the fair weather Obama supporters got caught up in a moment and not the movement (gunning for this man inspite of like the republican'ts did bush) not saying not to speak out when we see red flags and phones being tapped but I'll be damned to side with a teabagger and say that bomb bomb bomb iran McCain would have done any better in a land where neither Alexander the Great and Cheney with all his demons in hell couldn't take. Its not like we were not warned in the primaries.

krystalxlyte said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
krystalxlyte said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
krystalxlyte said...

@ Maldonado..I once read that Winston Churchill said a little somethin somethin like..

"A man does what he must - in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures - that is the basis of all human morality."

i'll let you come to your own conclusion about what the Nobel prize winning leader of Britain during WWII said but know I am not wholeheartedly for this war, never was, and I have good reason, reason beyond any doubt that the commander in chief is not eager with guns ablazing either, but we were in Iraq for the past 8 yrs. strictly for OIL.

To not know your enemy is dangerous, and its not me or anyone else who supports their leader you should hold in contempt, it is the people who sold you the Iraq war, 9/11 and and the lie of WMDs 'all that' via Haliburton/Bush Admin./CIA (the ppl who were paid to kill our ppl) This was, to me, a 'Break in case of Emergency' move by Obama.

You have all the right questions but try to do some history about wars past to get a little closer to the answer. In the meantime what is it you think should be done?



there are millions fighting without per se fighting..like the military spouses and family members..everyday like moi. so if its supporting the war make no mistake, i'm rooting for my home team.


soo...right then..on to that strategy of yours again?

thanks!

Shady_Grady said...

"Might", my ass. Dude talks about his support for the Iraq War like its the most shameful thing he's ever done. Anyone who reads him regularly knows this already

I try not to read Sullivan regularly. I think he's a hack. Most of his mea culpas still find ways to blame other people. Fact remains he was WRONG about Iraq and I think he's wrong about Afghanistan. He's a war groupie-just like Tom Friedman.

Sullivan is a hack!

The Indians did not want the British to stay. The British had no right to be there in the first place. We can't ignore that or the fact that the Afghans don't want the US occupation. It's not the US' role to occupy countries to save them from themselves. The French killed millions in Algeria- for what? Sooner or later, the invader is going to leave.

Yeah, and the Democrats paid a dear political price for ending it like they did.
Oh and citizens WON'T organize, not enough to make a difference. Wanna know why? Because there's no draft.


I don't know what you're talking about here but that's needlessly defeatist and somewhat inaccurate. There were hundreds of thousands of people mobilized and marching in 2003 in the US-and millions across the world. That was greater opposition to war much earlier than anything that had happened during the Vietnam era.

And it's not just self-interest that motivate people to protest war. As the costs of the war and the futility of it become more apparent it will be even less popular than it is now. The last poll I saw (USA Today) said that only half of Americans supported adding more soldiers in Afghanistan and 40% said it was time to withdraw. Those aren't just liberals or Democrats driving numbers like that.

Al-Quada's attacks on the US were also plotted in Germany and the US. There is not a damn thing special about Afghanistan that makes it the only place Al-Quada can operate. The war can't be paid for.

How many more children need to be ripped apart in bombing attacks before people realize this won't change people's minds?

c.c.-kathy said...

"And it's not just self-interest that motivate people to protest war."
_________________________
If the draft was brought back, you can be sure that self-interest would bring plenty of people out into the streets to protest the war.

I could swear that President Obama won the New Hamshire primary because of his speech about Pakistan, possibly Afganistan?

Anonymous said...

First, AMERICA has no right to be in any Islamic country! this is HOLY LAND, the word TALI mean's TEACH!

The TALIBAN is trying to PRESERVE the way's of God! now, how many of you people have really taken time out to learn what the TALBAN is really fighting for? and I don't mean what CNN tell's you!!!! find out for yourselve's!and if you are a BLACK PERSON, you know how the MEDIA can make people of COLOR look like the DEVIL himself!

America know's how to make people of COLOR look DEMONIC! and like I said before, since when did WHITE PEOPLE care about people of COLOR!

Now, some of you people can jump on the bandwagon with the President, but, I will NOT, not this time,

Democratic leader's begged, the President to think twice before he sent troop's to AFGHANISTAN! well, he listened to the REPUBLICAN'S!

I don't know what is going on with BLACK FOLK'S but, some of you people seem to be SIMPLE MINDED! don't you people know WHITE FOLK'S by now?

When the WHITE BODY count's begin to come in from AFGHANISTAN and they will, it will be an uproar from WHITE AMERICA! DEMOCRAT'S and REPUBLICAN'S will be MARCHING on WASHINGTON!

Keep in mind, this is a BLACK PRESIDENT, sending PRIMARILY WHITE YOUNG WHITE MEN and WOMEN off, to fight for people of COLOR!

Remember, this is not a WHITE MAN'S WAR any longer, white men can alway's justify their reason's for WAR, they are good at that, but, this President is going to have to explain why, he sent INNOCENT WHITE kid's off to die, never mind, MINORITY SOLDIER'S, they don't count!

When 2012 come's around, the REPUB/CON will use this as the PRESIDENT'S down fall! and you wonder why, the REP/CON wanted the President to send more TROOP'S to AFGHANISTAN! this was one of their TRUMP CARD'S! or shall I say ENTRAPMENT!

LISTEN to FARRAKHAN SPEAK'S, TAPE, NOVEMBER 14, 2009!




ISEEISEE

R. Maldonado said...

I'll bite.

Before I propose a strategy, let me first say that I am Clausewitz' man and I subscribe to principals of the Paradoxical Trinity of Conflict. I feel that any student of history or military science will readily admit that Clausewitz' doctrine is superior to Mao's Red Book regarding actual armed conflict.

That said, I cannot (nor could anyone) outline a Clausewitz strategy for a Clausewitz Army without a fulfilled Paradoxical Trinity of Conflict. I dare say, that such a thing is akin to replacing the order of Observer-Target Direction with Deviation Correction from the fifteen subsequent corrections found in the doctrines of observed fire. Don't you understand, strategy derives from military science, and science deals with facts and first principles. You are asking me to provide an abstract of something that cannot exist. This is akin to ordering me to engage a target with a .50 Browning Machine Gun ball round without an M2, proper head-space and timing, or traverse-and-elevation equipment. It cannot be done, and it is rude and improper to be offended because I will not attempt to do it. Nor will I attempt to do this impossible thing (present strategy) because it costs a tremendous sum that is not measured in Millions or Billions or Trillions, but in unique identifiers like John, Aaron, Lauren, Jamal, Howard, Misty, Robert or Raylonda.

Ergo, because of the cost fixed with the attempt regardless of outcome, and because the attempt has no possibility of successful outcome, it is futile action. Futile action is the Prima Materia of sloth. Slothfulness is a universally accepted vice. Universal vice is Evil. Ergo, to perpetuate a war with no hope of success is evil.


I'm saying we should leave immediately. It is evil to even propose a strategy because wars are also fought in the mind.

.
.
.

Were a man to ask me how best to capture, transport, and enslave West African peoples I would not present a proposition no matter how much or how scornfully I was encouraged.

And to the Bulldog I would reply, "Must we be there?" and then either standfast in my convictions or re-shape them based upon his answer.

c.c.-kathy said...

@R.Maldonado,
well, not very well versed in Clausewitz, but it seems to me that "surge" fits with that philosophy (strategy) of war.

R. Maldonado said...

Yes, Kathy. A "surge" like the one on D-Day is rooted in Clausewitz. But a "surge" is only appropriate if it is determined that a war should be fought, that it can be won, and that it will be won by a "surge." If those three are not present and confirmed, then one should not employ a "surge." If one still does, and it has cost lives, then that one has acted criminally.

(quotations because "surge" is not a doctrinally defined term).

FlyNMy40s said...

Obama is doing the right thing here. Now if he could just revamp that health care proposal.......

c.c.-kathy said...

@R.Maldonado
"(quotations because "surge" is not a doctrinally defined term)."

well, i used "surge" but i think it translates to victory in numbers or something like that.

I would like to know how to determine the "should be fought, can be won," that's the heart of this, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

Here's on for you Field-these are the people we are fighting for in Iraq: African-Iraqi's, denied even the lowliest jobs and forbidden to marry Arabs: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/03/world/middleeast/03basra.html?ref=global-home

LACoincidental said...

Swiff said:
'Oh and citizens WON'T organize, not enough to make a difference. Wanna know why? Because there's no draft. Which means this shit is another boring news story to the Average American, another video that they switch off so they can watch reality show starlets shit on mansion floors and pretend to fall in love with strangers. Mein Gott people, do you remember how fucked up Iraq was in 2006? Do you remember how much bloodier it was than Afghanistan? Do you remember how "the masses" TOTALLY DID NOT RISE UP AND MARCH ON D.C? You got your Code Pinks, your Vets for Peace, the real diehard pacifist types like my pastor, and other assorted antiwar left-wingers. They'll show up for the march.....like they always have. Meanwhile, John Q. Public will continue to concern himself with more pressing issues, such as playing Madden, watching cute animal Youtubes, downloading internet porn, and breaking drug laws while recoiling in mortal fear at any serious proposal to end the Drug War. Don't you get it? At some point Bill Maher is right and you have to hold the American people accountable for the ridiculous, unsustainable beliefs and habits they insist on maintaining.'


No truer word have been spoken player. Most Americans are too self absorbed and stupid to discuss things like grown ass people. Obama goes along with the left, he won't be known as the first Black president -- he'll be known as the second Jimmy Carter. Why? Because the American left are too loosely organized, back biting and otherwise immature to mount a real progressive counter offensive to the wingnuts. I can say this because I spent 5 years in the belly of the beast at the local level for 5 years as a local Green Party 'official'.

And the vast 'middle' are too busy on Black Planet and Facebook gossiping about Tiger Woods' secret hoe stable or the next episode of the Real House Wives of Orange County. How many of your co-workers can't find Pakistan or Afghanistan on a map or think that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11?

Roderick said...

FlyNMy40s: Obama is doing the right thing here.

Does that mean you will vote for Obama in 2012?

I didn't think so. LOL

socrates said...

Uptownsteve, I never posted at frontpagemag.com. I've never heard of that domain. Uhm, as to the topic at hand, I've seen the meme thrown out a lot by fake progressives that it's wrong to criticise Obama, because he said this was what he was going to do. I disagree. We should hold this administration's feet to the fire. I am in agreement with a thought I read that if Obama takes lefty peacenik ideals for granted, he will have a harder time being reelected. He will be fueling the lie that there are no differences between the two parties. If the economy is still tanking at the time, the Republicans could easily win back the office, especially if they do a bit of triangulation themselves.

grinder said...

R Maldonado, would you explain further? Like 95% of the people who encounter Clausewitz, I didn't get past the first two chapters of his dense German prose. You obviously did, so I'm curious.

R. Maldonado said...

I cannot go into the "Should be fought," because I am a theist. My particular case of theism is based upon the Argument from Morality. More specifically, I am a Christian. That said, all of my "shoulds" and "oughts" regarding right and wrong are actually "shoulds" and "oughts" based upon Christian theology and belief in Good and Evil. I'm not a Seminarian; but, I think we can all agree that faith isn't universal and that any talk of religion should stay far, far, FAR away from talk of war.

I can, however, get into the basics of Western military thought, and maybe help with the question of whether or not the war can be won.

A warring entity requires three things in order to be at war.

1) A strong and natural lust to carry out deliberate violence against an enemy (Think America after December seventh and September eleventh.)

2) A Theatre.

3) A clear policy goal.


These three elements compose the paradoxical trinity, and are sometimes interpreted as nature, manner, and purpose. They are absolutely one-hundred percent necessary. I believe the American war effort has not fulfilled the trinity.


1) Consider Matthew Hoh, Sheehan, me, you, Field, General Batiste etc. None of us know exactly who to kill, so we don't have a strong lust to deliberately kill anyone.

2) Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, or Pakistan? This could be considered as a bloc, the mid-east theatre. However, America will still be lacking the battlefields. In war, the microcosm matters as much as the macrocosm.

3) Searching for WMDs is not a clear goal. Ask what happens if we find them, and what happens if we don't? Lack of a clear goal means that even if Iraq did possess nuclear weapons, we would still be there.

The President says he will finish the job, achieve victory etc.. In what theatre? By winning which battlefields? By capturing which objectives? By killing whom exactly?

Just like when we were searching for WMDs in Iraq, we are lacking a clear goal now. This means we are not in war (in the theory sense), but instead prosecuting a series of armed engagements. The maneuver forces literally do not know what to do. They are there because they were ordered to go, but once there they are only trying to survive. Ponder on that for a moment. The nation is sending her people to another land so that they can be shot at.

-----------------------------

Hey Grinder, check out http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubid=708

It's all Clausewitz, but thankfully not in ivory tower elitespeak.

--------------------------------
--------------------------------

I must apologize for using ivory tower elitespeak myself. When I talked about .50 BMG rounds and artillery corrections earlier, I was trying to convey the technical nature of a strategy. I was arrogant and prideful, and just being a dick because "OH no one gets it."

I should of just said, "I'm sorry for coming off so critical of the President and those I disagree with on this issue, but to discuss strategy means to discuss deep military theory, and I doubt this is an appropriate forum for that."

Sorry for being a dick, my friends. My name IS Richard.

grinder said...

I think Obama's goal is the same as Nixon's goal back in '73: "peace with honor." Which, when stripped to its essentials, is nothing more than saving face. Who says the Chinese are the ultimate face-saving culture? We are.

Problem is, we do a rotten job of it. The reason is that we're only a face-saving culture on the surface. What we (refuse to) think of as face saving is really "blame shifting," which is quarter-assed face saving with none of the necessary compromises that enable true face saving.

When push comes to shove and the result is going to suck, we talk the language of face saving but we walk the walk of blame shifting. The end result? Helicopters in Saigon, Abu Ghraib, and the blood-bathed Iranian province that will be Iraq within a year of our departure.

God only knows what will happen in Afghan and the other stans. A little noticed story is the ongoing implosion of Russia, whose population is about to enter a steep decline, owing partly to demographics and partly to a gigantic AIDS problem in Siberia and elsewhere stemming from the re-use of hospital needles in the '80s and '90s.

One way or the other, the 21st century is going to be one nasty mother. Bush and Cheney got it catastrophically wrong -- enabled by a medicated, TV-addled, brain-dead American populace that deserves everything it's going to get -- and Obama is the first of a series of presidents who will be helpless in front of the advancing tornado.

Don said...

@ swiff:


who wrote: Don -

If sending 30,000 is unpopular, how wildly unpopular would sending 300,000 be?

It's a lose-lose situation either or, imho, so popularity doesn't enter into my mental. I do think sending a greater number of troops would end the war.

uptownsteve said...

Roderick,

"BTW Uptown, we're lobbying to get you reinstated at BR but Shay isn't giving in"

Just between me and you, I've been posting there off and on since she "banned" me under another name.

You know how easy it is to get around these bans.

I don't post there much because, quite frankly, BR sucks now.

Ms. Riley has chased off a lot her strongest contributors with her heavy handededness and intrusiveness.

chicago dyke said...

afghanistan isn't really a country so much as several groups of peoples who consider themselves to be quite different from each other and a corrupt island of western funded cronyism and corruption calling itself the official afghani government. as i was reading elsewhere, the Pashtou are willing to kill their afghan neighbors, americans, and each other with equal enthusiasm, if the slight is right. the only reason afghanistan exists as a "nation" is because empires keep going there to die and need to have some lines on a map that prove they 'won' when they leave.

there is no 'winning' in afghanistan and anyways that's not the point. the point is to provide cover for private wars by MIC types who are involved in various drug, weapons and human trafficking schemes. these schemes, along with the endless direct funding of the war, are worth billions and even trillions in the long run. it is highly unlikely any politician could end this war immediately, even if one wanted to. obama does not. he said as much on the campaign trail. like tony blair, obama will be rewarded for his support of the MIC and banking industries with tens of millions of dollars and a seat on the Carlyle board, after the end of his first or second term.

alicia banks said...

fn:

you will see that obama is gwb 2.0

you and the whole world

bet

http://aliciabanks.vox.com/library/post/obamas-wars-will-be-worse-than-vietnam.html

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