Wednesday, December 01, 2010

Merry Christmas!


It's nice to be back home, but I had to come home to a controversy in my fair city because [right] wingnuts have issues with the word CHRISTMAS [briefly] being removed from our little "Christmas Village". I know that the wingnuts won, and the Mayor caved, but you Christian soldiers really need to do a better job of picking your battles. Honestly, I am kind of sick of this debate every holiday season. (Yes, I said "holiday" and not Christmas. I tend to be PC like that.) Oh, and folks, while you are scouting for your next battle site; please pull out a copy of the constitution and read it.

Great folks those wingnuts, they are fired up over the word Christmas not being used enough but they are voting to cut off unemployment benefits to poor folks who can't catch a break [or a job] in time for......wait for it... wait for it.....CHRISTMAS! But it gets better: They also want to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest among us. Hey, rich folks gotta eat, too.

Finally, there is nerve and there is NERVE! Michelle Bachmann, that nut from Prince country, (h/t Karl for this story) actually ripped the federal government payout to hard working black farmers who were robbed of their just due because of racism.

WASHINGTON - Congress gave the final go-ahead Tuesday to a landmark $1.2 billion settlement compensating black farmers for decades of discrimination, even as Minnesota Republican Michele Bachmann and other conservatives charged that the deal is riddled with fraudulent claims.

The long-delayed package, negotiated by the Obama administration, could award some $50,000 each to thousands of African-Americans who claimed they were unjustly denied loans and assistance from the federal Agriculture Department in the 1980s and '90s. Right up until the final 256-152 vote in the House, Bachmann -- along with Iowa Republican Steve King and others -- called for an investigation of the settlement, known as Pigford II.

"This looks like one of the most outrageously fraudulent claims of scamming the federal taxpayers that anyone has ever seen," Bachmann said in one of her first major forays since she tried to win a post in the new House Republican leadership. "It's indefensible."

Remember I said that there is nerve and then there is NERVE? This is why:

"Bachmann's outspoken criticism sparked a war of words with John Boyd, president of the National Black Farmers Association, as well as with Minneapolis Democrat Keith Ellison, the state's first and only black representative in Congress.

Boyd, one of the architects of the deal, criticized Bachmann for inserting herself in the longstanding dispute, noting that her family farm received more than $250,000 in farm subsidies over the past decade while the Pigford case was being litigated.

"She got hers, and black farmers have been systematically shut out of the farm subsidy program," Boyd said on his way to the Capitol to witness the historic vote on the measure that passed the Senate earlier this month.

Bachmann responded that she has never received "one penny" from her in-laws' family farm in Independence, Wis., even though she reported between $15,001 and $50,000 in "farm income" on her federal financial disclosure forms this year. She and her husband also list a stake in the farm valued at up to $250,000." [Source]

$250,000 for just a "stake" in the farm? Merry Christmas, Michelle!




105 comments:

Rudy said...

No comment. I'll just sit back and watch the anon-wingnuts spew their venom.

Anonymous said...

It is amazing how the Republicans can twist things and the Dumbocrats let them do it. IE: To balance the budget you cut taxes for the rich and cut services for the poor, everyone gets a cut.

Michelle B. is dangerous; she has more brains than Sarah P.

The next two years will be great for bloggers. For us citizens, this is the calm before the storm.

KTRU Chris

Idiocracy said...

Yeah right. 32,000 farmers registered intially. Then Pigford settlement later 96,000 have claims and the democrats are taking the money from mothers assistance and child nutrition. Guess its better to further corruption then to really take care of our women and children. Farms shouldnt be subsidized to begin with. The government INSISTS on subsidizing farms for price controls.
Now, Black farmers failed because they could not borrow tax money? And even if they never saw a farm if they file a form claiming they did, they get money?

We are going the way of south africa. Led by the politically incompetently correct. Paying all sorts of corruption scams and rewarding the morons and incompetents in our society.

The end is near for when the people you despise give up or lose, then what will you do? You cant take any more of the pies that are no longer being baked, just ask South Africa, Haiti or any other similar nation.

Oh yeah, they just eliminateed advanced english in a school in this country. Because to many whites were passing and not enough minorities. So in the name of diversity they want everyone to be dumbed down and join classes in remedial english. What a silly useless nation we have become, giving in to the violent children.

idiocracy is here!!

Cowford said...

Bachman has a point, there have been over 96,000 Pigford claims submitted, but there were at most 18,000 black farmers. Plus, they are getting paid whether or not they were ever "discriminated" against, all that matters is that one guy, Mr. Pigford, won a lawsuit.

It's a scam.

Thurston Howell IV said...

You misrepresent the facts again. The Republicans have said they would vote for the extension in unemployment benefits if it was paid for by cutting something else (we are out of money, if you haven't noticed). The democrats can't muster the balls to take a little back from their union and Wall Street cronies.

brohammas said...

This kind of stuff needs to be communicated more affectively (not a dig at you Mr. Field, just in general).
We white folks generally have no idea that racism and discrimination still exist.

Cue the comments from everyone, but reality-trust me- is that what many think is blatant racism is more often apathetic ignorance.
For white people to change we need to wake up and realize that there is even a reason for us to do so... we don't even know this stuff exists.... then when examples of real life discrimination do get highlighted it is like this; a name calling legal fight over a bigger issue that never gets detailed.

We are yelling at each other when explanations would do better for us all.

Idiocracy said...

Hey Purple Cow.....Now I truly know liberals are most certainly insane.

Now in the UK they are saying sexual predators are oftentimes discriminated against by not being allowed to work with children and should be reviewed on a case by case basis.
The government could face legal action if it continues to ban sex offenders from working with children, according to research published today.

A report by a family law expert argues that some sex offenders should be allowed to adopt or foster children, and claims that the current blanket ban is discriminatory.

"Sex offenders shouldn't all be tarred with the same brush," said Helen Reece at the London School of Economics, who wrote the report. "People need to be carefully screened for adoption and fostering, but each case should be taken on its merits.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2010/nov/30/sex-offenders-adoption-children



It's time for us in the US to learn we flourised as a nation governed by laws. No more excuses, no more exceptions. The law must be adhered to followed and applied to all equally or eliminated. We have become a nation of exceptions thus substandard and totally incompetent with corruption now shrugged off as just dues for something in history.

Bong Crosby said...

"Oh, and folks, while you are scouting for your next battle site; please pull out a copy of the constitution and read it."

Where in the constitution does it say you can't use the word Christmas? Are you sure you went to law school? Were there any white people there?

You liberals need to loosen your shorts, take a deep breath, and let people live how they want to live. Stop pissing in everybody else's "holiday" punch.

I think I feel a song coming on.....

I'm dreaming of a white Christmas,
just like the ones I used to know
May your days be merry and bright,
and may all your Christmases be white,

Merry Holiday Mr. Negro!

PilotX said...

Well Thurston please explain how the tax cuts will be paid for. I have an idea, let's cut foreign aid to countries like Israel and Egypt because hey we need to take care of home first. Also close the military bases in Germany, Japan and whatever other 20th century war we're still trying to fight.
On another note it's amazing the racism that is coming from all over, even the floor of our congress. I love how Rep. Steve King called the president "very urban" and called the Pigford settlement reparations. I expect this from limbaugh but not from elected officials. Obama Derangement Syndrome has EVERYBODY off their rockers. Damn, maybe we should have let the old crazy guy and the bimbo win. I'm sure Field's Air R's are getting quite the workout nowadays.

chicago dyke said...

a lying republican hypocrite on the public dole? i'm shocked, shocked i tell you.

dood. it's the only way they can survive. it's not like they could actually compete or work for a living. "projection, thy name is Republican" i hope you've figured that out by now. if they accuse someone of doing a crime, it's because they themselves are doing it. pedophilia, closeted homosexuality, irreligion, theft, torture, lying... really, it's just too easy to point out how often that's been factually true of republicans these days. i pity people who don't understand that, even as i won't bother to defend modern day "democrats," who are less evil but mostly just weak and lame. but modern day "republicans?" mostly, neofascists.

PilotX said...

Oh yeah as far as the "war" on Christmas. Just another way the CWMs want to have things their way and their way only like a petulent 5 year old. I remember the dirty looks I got from disembarking passengers after I wished them a happy holiday. I had a flight attendant tell me she only says merry xmas and wondered why I don't do the same. Well for one I explained I don't celebrate it and since we are an internaltional airline that caters to a diverse population we have many pax that celebrate many holidays thus it is only logical to say hh vice mc. Oh well Bill O'Reilly has to have SOMETHING to bitch about cause we all know how important it is to honor a day that was created to lessen the celebration of the winter solstice.

Thurston Howell IV said...

Let's pimp out ginger and get the professor to make us some genetically modified weed. Allow offshore drilling off the island and when the oil is all gone we sell the island to the Chinese and move to Mexico.

Sound like a plan?

Anonymous said...

anon8:37p-"It is amazing how the Republicans can twist things and the Dumbocrats let them do it. IE: To balance the budget you cut taxes for the rich and cut services for the poor, everyone gets a cut."

Anon, this is a quote from the mouth of the outgoing Gov Strickland of Ohio. Regarding the Bush tax cuts and unemployment benefits and the Democrats' inability to sell their plan, the Governor put it to the point. His statement is to the point. It's the best I've heard yet:

...Talking, unprompted, about the debate over the expiring Bush tax cuts, Strickland said he was dumbfounded at the party's inability to sell the idea that the rates for the wealthy should be allowed to expire.

"I mean, if we can't win that argument we might as well just fold up," he said. "These people are saying we are going to insist on tax cuts for the richest people in the country and we don't care if they are paid for, and we don't think it is a problem if it contributes to the deficit, but we are not going to vote to extend unemployment benefits to working people if they aren't paid for because they contribute to the deficit. I mean, what is wrong with that? How can it be more clear?"

anon, you might want to read the entire article because he made clear and frank statements regarding the Democrats and Republicans...including Obama's political naivety.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/01/exclusive-ted-strickland-_n_790489.html

Anonymous said...

Projection, thy name is chicago dyke.

Republicans represent the productive class, democrats the dependent class.

field negro said...

The Republicans have said they would vote for the extension in unemployment benefits if it was paid for by cutting something else"

What is that something else? Could it be a tax cut for folks making over $250,000.00?

"Bachman has a point,...."

Sorry Cowford, you lost me at hello.

Anonymous said...

anon@9:29: Strickland is an idiot who doesn't understand the concepts of tax rates versus taxes, and so apparently are you.

field negro said...

"I love how Rep. Steve King called the president "very urban" and called the Pigford settlement reparations. I expect this from limbaugh but not from elected officials."

PilotX, actually limbaugh has more juice in their party than the elected offficials.

"dood. it's the only way they can survive. it's not like they could actually compete or work for a living. "projection, thy name is Republican" i hope you've figured that out by now. if they accuse someone of doing a crime, it's because they themselves are doing it. pedophilia, closeted homosexuality, irreligion, theft, torture, lying... really, it's just too easy to point out how often that's been factually true of republicans these days..."

Yep!

Cowford said...

"Sorry Cowford, you lost me at hello."

Ambulance chaser.

Wesley R said...

Field,

Don't you love how Bachmann is against African-American and Native American farmers getting the same thing her family is gets. But of course it's O.K. for her to do it. Steve King has his century's mixed up. I bet soon he'll have some brown Grandkids, Nieces, Nephews.

Anonymous said...

Wesley R said..."Don't you love how Bachmann is against African-American and Native American farmers getting the same thing her family is gets."

It's not the same thing, not at all.

The Pigford settlement is an extortion payoff.

IF Bachman received anything, it would have been from the same subsidy pot that every farmer, including black farmers, gets every year.

PilotX said...

Talk about oversimplifications. Where I'm from we're all Democrats because we work hard and are union members and we know the GOP hates labor so we vote our interests. Now if by dependent you mean trailer park dwellers in the south that vote GOP cause their inbred daddies told them to cause they hate darkies then we might be on to something.

Anonymous said...

anon9:35p, "anon@9:29: Strickland is an idiot who doesn't understand the concepts of tax rates versus taxes, and so apparently are you."

sounds like your little child within is crying with anger.:)

Anonymous said...

anon-"Don't you love how Bachmann is against African-American and Native American farmers getting the same thing her family is gets."

dear Brohammas, they haven't heard a word you said, and furthermore, don't care. you see, Americans like their ignorance of Blacks and Whites. In fact, they treat ignorance as if it is knowledge. lol.. It helps to feed racism. What would America do without it? FN blog would implode!

Mack Lyons said...

"IF Bachman received anything, it would have been from the same subsidy pot that every farmer, including black farmers, gets every year."

So you don't know WHY the Pigford settlement came into being. Here's some literature to get you started.

And while Black farmers continued to get fucked over thanks to subterfuge within the USDA, stock brokers and investment bankers continue to receive farming subsidies while living in their Manhattan addresses.

I love how in this "great" country of ours, it's perfectly OK to fuck over Blacks, poor people and others this nation seems to dislike while giving the wealthy and powerful as many opportunities and breaks as they desire.

Anonymous said...

Anon 9:29 thanks for the Strickland piece. He is right on target. The Dems need to fight this battle on populist terms, but it looks like we are going to extend the Bush tax cuts to cut the deficit?

The professor in chief is going to have to get down and dirty to turn things around. And for heavens sake, don't turn things over to Max Bachus again.

KTRU Chris

Anonymous said...

We are headed into the political age of beautiful politicians.

michelle bachman is a beautiful smart woman who has her stuff together-- just like beautiful Sarah smart Palin. nancy pelosi is a beautiful politician. yep, whether dem or repub i think we are headed for beautiful times although the repubs have the dems beat hands down because of Palin and her daughters.

Mack Lyons said...

"Farms shouldnt be subsidized to begin with. The government INSISTS on subsidizing farms for price controls."

Nearly every other nation subsidizes their farms. Without subsidies, there would be very few farms and food costs would be that much higher. Even Monsanto and Archer Daniels Midland love those subsidies -- I dare you to snatch those away from them.

"We are going the way of south africa. Led by the politically incompetently correct. Paying all sorts of corruption scams and rewarding the morons and incompetents in our society."

You must be the guy who loved Zimbabwe back when it was Rhodesia.

"idiocracy is here!!"

Indeed. And you happen to be its flesh-and-blood personification.

S. Mack said...

"I love how in this "great" country of ours, it's perfectly OK to fuck over Blacks,"

Right, Mack, that's we let them into schools they aren't qualified for, give them jobs they aren't the best candidate for, create "set asides" to give black businesses contracts they couldn't compete for, and hand them $50,000 if they say they are a farmer!

If that's getting fucked over, where do I get in line?

Hathor said...

S. Mack,
Get a tan and get in line.
Also get take an vow of silence, so we wont have to hear how you were fucked.

PilotX said...

I think we have it backwards S. Mack, in this country we hire white boys who aren't qualified over women and people of color that are more qualified, we give them passes but don't call them affirmative action but legacy admittance (W.) and then act astonished when companies get caught and have to comply with non-discrimination laws. I see you bought into the hype that only whate males are ever qualified or have any business doing anything. I fly with enough incompetent white males to know you guys are overrated and owe your jobs to the good old boys club. Can't fool us. Keep on worshipping at the alter of mediocrity and thinking you are special.

Anonymous said...

PilotX, " Can't fool us. Keep on worshipping at the alter of mediocrity and thinking you are special."

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

S. Mack said...

PilotX said...

"I see you bought into the hype that only whate males are ever qualified or have any business doing anything."

No, that's something quite different than what I said.
The truth is that white males are the only demographic that can be legally discriminated against.

Any gaming of the rules only benefits blacks.

You see a white man that has built himself up from humble beginnings, you know he deserved it.

You see a black man who has done the same, and you don't know if he had the stuff, or he's just another affirmative action case.

Sucks, but it's true.

Anonymous said...

Field, "Finally, there is nerve and there is NERVE! Michelle Bachmann, that nut from Prince country, .."

Must you call the lovely Michelle Bachmann a 'nut'? I mean, that is so disrespectful to her. Let this be a 'teaching moment' for you Field. Never insult a woman of Michelle's stature. That goes for Palin as well.

Re: "Christmas"- it is absolutely ridiculous AND MEAN-SPIRITED to remove the word Christmas from the German Xmas Village! Your Philadelphians are some sick-ass people. You even want to take away XMAS for those who love to celebrate it.

Did you take away Hanukkah and Kwanzaa too? I bet it was only the word Christmas, the day that symbolizes the birth of Christ, right? Yep, Philly is truly the city of brotherly love..LOL

That goodness for your Mayor.

Mack Lyons said...

"Right, Mack, that's we let them into schools they aren't qualified for, give them jobs they aren't the best candidate for, create "set asides" to give black businesses contracts they couldn't compete for, and hand them $50,000 if they say they are a farmer!

If that's getting fucked over, where do I get in line?"


"aren't qualified for"
"aren't the best candidate for"
"couldn't compete for"

Out of this, you're basically saying that Blacks in general are an incompetent lot who don't deserve any of these special considerations that were made for them. Nevermind that these considerations came to be because the schools, companies and organizations you're alluding to essentially wouldn't consider dealing with them because of the systemic bigotry held by many of the people in charge of handling the contracts, admissions, hirings, etc.

"You see a white man that has built himself up from humble beginnings, you know he deserved it.

You see a black man who has done the same, and you don't know if he had the stuff, or he's just another affirmative action case."


Nah. You assume that the White guy built up whatever he had from humble beginnings. For all you know, he could have been an incompetent jackass who either lucked out and stumbled upon whatever he got or it was passed down from his father, who may or may not have had the foresight to put into position people who'd run the whole shebang from behind the scenes while the guy went on weekly hookers-and-blow binges.

And you assume that the Black guy couldn't have possibly managed to build up anything of note because, like nearly all of his people, he is simply too feebleminded and shiftless to come up with his own ideas, let alone put any of them together in a concrete form. He has to be pushed along by others who pity this poor specimen enough to help him succeed at whatever he's doing.

That's how assumptions are. They usually make asses of people. Then again, a lot of people don't mind being asses, because they confuse that for being "outspoken".

S. Mack said...

"Out of this, you're basically saying that Blacks in general are an incompetent lot who don't deserve any of these special considerations that were made for them."

No, not at all. It is the proponents of Affirmative Action who imply this.

I do not think blacks cannot compete on their own.

If you assume blacks need Affirmative Action, then it is you who think they are incompetent.

My point is that the exisitence of affirmative action programs casts aspersions on the accomplishments of all blacks, deserved or not. It's part of the price of accepting special considerations.

Anonymous said...

S.Mack, "You see a black man who has done the same, and you don't know if he had the stuff, or he's just another affirmative action case.

Sucks, but it's true."

I am afraid that is the perception Whites always have had of Blacks. Each time your perception has been proved wrong. Remember the perception of first Blacks let into baseball, basketball, football, golf? We all know what happened. They shattered white perception so much it was frightening to you. We now have probably the smartest most intelligent President EVER, but once again, Republicans and some White Dems are doing everything possible to sabotage him, in order to reduce the pain of their insecurities and ignorance.

Whites have always been negative toward Blacks, from the days of slavery to Jim Crow, to today. The world's greatest offenders of humanity have been perpetrators of slavery, and racism for their own selfish benefits. That belongs to people like you. YOU proudly own that.

However, there is nothing new about that. History notes it again and again.

S. Mack said...

"I am afraid that is the perception Whites always have had of Blacks. Each time your perception has been proved wrong. Remember the perception of first Blacks let into baseball, basketball, football, golf? We all know what happened. They shattered white perception so much it was frightening to you. We now have probably the smartest most intelligent President EVER, but once again, Republicans and some White Dems are doing everything possible to sabotage him, in order to reduce the pain of their insecurities and ignorance."

Um, wrong. Sports are a pure meritocracy, and black success is a testament to black competiveness.

But in the rest of our society, we skew the rules in a way we would never accept in sports. What if the NBA (following the doctrine of disparate impact) had to apportion players based on the racial make up of the whole population? Would that be fair, to mandate a 70% white player roster?

No. Then why is fair to mandate (via preferential admissions) that 12% of doctors are black?

Obama is a classic example of affirmative action putting people in positions they have no business being in. The only reason he appears so smart is he follows someone as dumb as Bush. (Standing next to Joe Biden helps too).

If Obama is so smart, why has he never released any of his academic records (as every other presidential candidate has)? Why do we see none of his scholarly writings? Why was he only editor of the Harvard Law review never to publish anything? Why did he have to get Bill Ayers to write his autobiography for him?

Everytime he has engaged someone intelligent in a debate, he has had his ass handed to him.

Obama may be smooth, but he is really not all that smart. That is becoming painfully obvious as his disastrous term plays out.

Anonymous said...

http://www.timeslive.co.za/news/world/article251622.ece/Did-humans-originate-in-Africa

Now this makes a lot of sense.

Anonymous said...

mack ure a gott dam idgit!

Anonymous said...

The world's greatest offenders of humanity have been perpetrators of slavery, and racism for their own selfish benefits. That belongs to people like you. YOU proudly own that.

Actually, no. It belongs to people like you. Take a look at real history. Take a look at todays enslavement to see who is still practicing.

By the way, you never knew a slave, you were never a slave and you have a hand up on anything you want in this country, you were given 20 points in a game of 21 because you cant compete, you were given 3/4 mile start in a mile long race, because you cant compete fairly, you were allowed to pass with much lower achievement scores then any other race, because you cant compete, you were given financial aid over any other race, because you cant compete, you were given preferential treatment for behaviour that would have gotten others immediately shunned, because you dont know any better. So now take all that, shut up and stop complaining and whining about things you never knew, had nothign to do with and stop making excuses you weak minded, weak willed and weak skilled individual. Be thankful for the handups you get, but dont make more excuses when even with them you cant compete.

Mack Lyons said...

"By the way, you never knew a slave, you were never a slave and you have a hand up on anything you want in this country, you were given 20 points in a game of 21 because you cant compete, you were given 3/4 mile start in a mile long race, because you cant compete fairly, you were allowed to pass with much lower achievement scores then any other race, because you cant compete, you were given financial aid over any other race, because you cant compete, you were given preferential treatment for behaviour that would have gotten others immediately shunned, because you dont know any better. So now take all that, shut up and stop complaining and whining about things you never knew, had nothign to do with and stop making excuses you weak minded, weak willed and weak skilled individual. Be thankful for the handups you get, but dont make more excuses when even with them you cant compete."

Why do you think that we "can't compete"? Exactly what events and situations caused you to draw those conclusions in the first place? It's just something I have to ask, because your logic is about as flawed as Shaq's free throw attempts.

Apparently you see Blacks as being given a "head start" when all many Blacks asked for was an equal footing. Before being given these "3/4 mile head starts", Blacks weren't allowed on the track at all. They couldn't get in on the game of 21. They weren't allowed to set foot in the classrooms you talk about, much less get financial aid. Being given preferential treatment wasn't a problem because such things didn't exist as far as many Whites were concerned.

Somewhere along the line, this train of thought emmerged from the minds of well-meaning liberals that Blacks were a people to be pittied, very much like the "majestic" Native Americans. All we asked for was to be treated as human beings were supposed to be treated -- these guys "helped" us by showering us with "preferential" treatment.

In short, we only asked for instances of malfeasance motivated by racial bigotry to be caught, noted and corrected, while being given the same opportunities that others received without undue racial bias. And somehow that morphed into the meme that Blacks needed "special treatment" because we're "special".

Now be thankful for me kicking the soapbox from under you, bitch.

Mack Lyons said...

"The world's greatest offenders of humanity have been perpetrators of slavery, and racism for their own selfish benefits. That belongs to people like you. YOU proudly own that.

Actually, no. It belongs to people like you. Take a look at real history. Take a look at todays enslavement to see who is still practicing."


The above lets me know that you don't understand a goddamn word you're saying. Next time, keep your mouth closed so you'll only be thought of as a fool, as opposed to deliberately outing yourself as one.

field negro said...

"It's time for us in the US to learn we flourised as a nation governed by laws. No more excuses, no more exceptions. The law must be adhered to followed and applied to all equally or eliminated. We have become a nation of exceptions thus substandard and totally incompetent with corruption now shrugged off as just dues for something in history."

Yes, you are right. Let's start by locking up Scooter, Dick, and all the other lawbreakers in Washington. Not to mention the ones on Wall Street.

Mack, thanks for the facts. Facts are always good.

Brohammas, you know me, I am always willing to talk and to listen. This racism thing can be so tricky at times.

Anonymous said...

Mack, glad to see you got your "give a damn" back.

Anonymous said...

Mack Lyons said...
"The world's greatest offenders of humanity have been perpetrators of slavery, and racism for their own selfish benefits. That belongs to people like you. YOU proudly own that.

Actually, no. It belongs to people like you. Take a look at real history. Take a look at todays enslavement to see who is still practicing."

The above lets me know that you don't understand a goddamn word you're saying. Next time, keep your mouth closed so you'll only be thought of as a fool, as opposed to deliberately outing yourself as one.



Really? Why doesnt fit your MSNBC learnings? Well here is a dose of reality for someone so strongly ignorant like you who clearly doesnt understand anything that an adult might say that is based in reality, once it is outside his learned script.

Niger
In Niger, slavery was only criminalised in 2003 - and the local human rights organisation Timidria estimates 870,000 people are still held in bondage there.

The masters control the slaves totally, exploiting their labour, abusing them sexually and physically, and often forcing them to mate with other slaves so that their children are born into slavery.

Haiti
The UN commemorations are linked to the 200th anniversary of the slave revolt in Haiti in 1804. However, that did not end slavery in the country and, today, there are 200,000 children kept as restavecs (domestic slaves), mainly in the capital Port au Prince.

Restavecs belong to the worldwide tradition of placement, where poorer families send their children to richer relatives in order to improve their chances in life.
But Maryse Guimond, working for Save the Children in Haiti, says these children are given false hopes of education and then lose their family links, which often leads to abuse.

Oh and there is so much more, like indentured service for 20 million debtors performing forced labor under armed guard in Brazil.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1357_slavery_today/page5.shtml

Hathor said...

For those who do research to mitigate white privilege and immorality, it only doesn't prove your thesis, it shows the lack of ethical standards.

All is alright in the world so long as white folks are not the only ones doing evil or as other do evil, then white folks must not be.

This is all that I get from your arguments is an effort to save face. I could care less, but I do wish you all would stop taking up so much space with the regurgitated and funky premises. From blog to blog, do you go on, as if some evangelist for detached wingnuttery.

alicia banks said...

the most controversial holiday issue i find is that politicos will starve the starving even more...yet be merry...

"go hungry & happy holidays u mongrels"
from hobama inc (reps + dems = all set to have great holiday feasts/gifts etc)

shame!!!!!!

"I think it’s a sad moment,” said Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Fla.) after the vote. “It appalls me that the Republicans keep pitching and pitching and pitching the tax cuts for the rich and won’t join in a bill to help people keep their homes and not have to live in their cars.”

http://www.kypost.com/dpps/money/personal_finance/holidays-about-survival-as-jobless-benefits-end_5590794

http://newsone.com/nation/associatedpress2/unemployment-extension-fails-benefits-to-stop-after-thanksgiving/

uptownsteve said...

Isn't this just like a hypocritical righty?

Complaining about "gubmint handouts" and has been getting them herself for years.

Un-friggin-believable.

alicia banks said...

mb is a racist fool...and a hasty one

ie

does a single black farmer have a single check yet???

and what more shall she say when they actually do???

alicia banks said...

how many homohating hypochristians will take a moment away from buybull bashing to feed a poor unemployed family this christmas?

alicia banks said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
alicia banks said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
alicia banks said...

if only hobama could rush and sneak cash to those black mongrel farmers as quickly as he always does to his beloved banksters and corp cronies....then mb could really whine!

The financial crisis stretched even farther across the economy than many had realized, as new disclosures show the Federal Reserve rushed trillions of dollars in emergency aid not just to Wall Street but also to motorcycle makers, telecom firms and foreign-owned banks in 2008 and 2009.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/01/AR2010120106870.html

LACoincidental said...

Alicia, the Black farmers won their settlement after 15 years, two Presidents and 6 other Congressional classes passing the buck. Can you at least be happy for justice being served and leave the bot-like Obama-haterade session alone for a day?

alicia banks said...

lac:

hell no

and this is why

hobama pimped the farmers in IL overtime!!!...then betrayed them in DC immediately!!!

simple...see?

one party
one hoax
one agenda
wake up!!!

In its first months in office, the Obama administration sought to protect Bush administration officials facing criminal investigation overseas for their involvement in establishing policies the that governed interrogations of detained terrorist suspects. A "confidential" April 17, 2009, cable sent from the US embassy in Madrid to the State Department—one of the 251,287 cables obtained by WikiLeaks—details how the Obama administration, working with Republicans, leaned on Spain to derail this potential prosecution.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/12/wikileaks-cable-obama-quashed-torture-investigation

ps: i will ONLY stop hating hobama when he deserves it...if ever!!!....ditto for his plagiarist still hated cuz gwb!!!

alicia banks said...

once more with feeling lac:

hell no!!!

As a senator, Barack Obama led the charge last year to pass a bill allowing black farmers to seek new discrimination claims against the Agriculture Department. Now he is president, and his administration so far is acting like it wants the potentially budget-busting lawsuits to go away.

The change isn't sitting well with black farmers who thought they'd get a friendlier reception from Obama after years of resistance from President George W. Bush.

"You can't blame it on the Bush administration anymore," said John Boyd, head of the National Black Farmers Association, which has organized the lawsuits. "I can't figure out for the life of me why the president wouldn't want to implement a bill that he fought for as a U.S. senator."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/21/obama-backs-support-black-farmers-suing-usda-discrimination/

alicia banks said...

lac:

who lied about me being unhappy for farmers???

i am elated for them.

but that has NOTHING to do with that blackish traitor hoax hobama!!!

fyi!

Anonymous said...

uptownsteve said...
"Isn't this just like a hypocritical righty?

Complaining about "gubmint handouts" and has been getting them herself for years."

It would be, if that were the case, but it's not and you know it.

PilotX said...

Well anon you are barking up the wrong tree. I will give you a concrete example to prove you are wrong. At my airline in the 60's we bought a bunch of jet aircraft and needed pilots so what did we do? Well we actually paid for the training for a bunch of pilots and guess what? They were of course all white males. Why is that a problem you ask? Well there were about 1,000 military trained pilots that served honorably in WWII you may know them as the Tuskegee Airmen. Many of them would have loved to fly for an airline as that was a great job then. Those white guys who were severly underqualified compared to the men of color passed by are now retiring at the highest levels and some of their kids then became pilots, you become what you see. Hell, American Airlines had a Black pilot who was an Air Force test pilot (where we get our astronaut pool) and threw his resume in the garbage because they didn't hire no niggers. You tell me how many white males are self made. How many whites are where they are because a Black person or woman was held back? That's the question I ask and when I see a person of color or woman that is successful I see someone who had to work twice as hard as a WCM because they had to represent everyone else that came after them instead of just themselves. If I screw up it's "see how they are" when Jimmy screws up it's "Jimmy screwed up". Thank god so many of us are outstanding so as to help others. Fact is when people like yourself are in charge of hiring many times they hire the most incompetent person of color or woman just so they can justify their racism/sexism, they would never hire someone competent because it would ruin their sense of superiority. This is but one industry, I'm sure others can share their stories.

Anonymous said...

anon2:33 "By the way, you never knew a slave, you were never a slave and you have a hand up on anything you want in this country, you were given 20 points in a game of 21 because you cant compete, you were given 3/4 mile start in a mile long race, because you cant compete fairly, you were allowed to pass with much lower achievement scores then any other race, because you cant compete, you were given financial aid over any other race, because you cant compete, you were given preferential treatment for behaviour that would have gotten others immediately shunned, because you dont know any better. So now take all that, shut up and stop complaining and whining about things you never knew, had nothign to do with and stop making excuses you weak minded, weak willed and weak skilled individual. Be thankful for the handups you get, but dont make more excuses when even with them you cant compete."

This is the comment of a very depressed person. This anonymous person probably is posting from a mental hospital.

Anonymous said...

Mack Lyons-"Why do you think that we "can't compete"? Exactly what events and situations caused you to draw those conclusions in the first place? It's just something I have to ask, because your logic is about as flawed as Shaq's free throw attempts."

It doesn't matter how flawed his logic is. He's White.

mellaneous said...

Pilot X thanks for that concrete example you gave to S. Mack.

The problem with folks saying that Affirmative Action causes whites to suspect the qualifications of blacks is that it is based on faulty and false thinking.

Affirmative Action is based on the idea of allowing folks who were formerly left out of jobs, schools,careers, etc an opportunity to get into these areas
and compete, because again they were formerly left out.

Of course the problem lies in the fact that without a historical understanding about what actually happened to people of color in this country it is impossible to understand the purpose of Affirmative Action.

And that in order to level the playing field you at least have to open the door for those that have been left out it seems like something that is at bottom unfair when it really isn't.

Of course some whites feel like this was unfair to them because they feel like they had no hand in past discrimination. But the truth is that many people indeed benefited from the limited playing field that was once a whites only playing field.

A good example of this was the way in which the GI Bill was granted to white soldiers after WWII allowing them to buy homes in the suburbs and helped promote the building up of the suburbs.

In fact Mack's analogy about sports can be used to show that there was no meritocracy in the US and in fact never really has been.

The rich and well off and well connected have always gotten a leg up.

Mack's fight is not with fellow working class blacks but with the powers that seek to seperate us from out common interests.

Anonymous said...

if this post and comments are any indication of the mind state of america, it's going to be a fucked up xmas. lol

Gee Chee Vision said...

AB, I'm a thread late and a dollar short. I didn't mean to imply you are some TV drone sistah. It was a general charge to the public.

mellaneous said...

Field thanks for posting about this I had to step back because I was actually involved with the black farmers through an organization in Minnesota that was doing social justice work.

Ironically a primarily white farmers group in Minnesota gave the black farmers support in their efforts by inviting them to Minnesota and the Twin Cities to tell of their plight as well as writing letters to Congress and providing material support.

BTW this flies in the face of Focused Purpose constant cynicism about working in coalition and cooperating with other groups to get what we want.

This was a legitimate suit and the claims of fraud by elected US representatives are out right lies and propaganda, that only serve to keep these racist stereotypes and racial tension alive.

Shame on Michelle Bachman and Peter King. They are doing more damage than they realize or maybe they know.

engX said...

Pilot X said: Fact is when people like yourself are in charge of hiring many times they hire the most incompetent person of color or woman just so they can justify their racism/sexism,


That's really ridiculous, even for you.

I've been in corporate America for 30 years, and in all that time I have only witnessed preferential treatment of black applicants and employees.

I know things were different in 1950, but I wasn't alive then. All I know is that for my entire working lifetime, white males have been discriminated against, legally, systematically, and enthusiastically.

In my field (engineering), women have actually benefitted more than blacks have, but skewing the system comes at the expense of anyone who would have been hired purely on merit.

The whole concept of government mandating discrimination is messed up. The government should only mandate fair treatment. Two wrongs don't make a right, especially for the next generation.

mellaneous said...

engX said:
"In my field (engineering), women have actually benefitted more than blacks have, but skewing the system comes at the expense of anyone who would have been hired purely on merit.

The whole concept of government mandating discrimination is messed up. The government should only mandate fair treatment. Two wrongs don't make a right, especially for the next generation."

Eng you make a good point so help me out. Lets say you live in a society in which when it comes hiring time or selecting time or whatever folks usually select only those who look like them and they do this for a myriad of reasons and which yes includes racism.

Now considering that most folks are not as fairminded as you but continue this practice, What do you do to allow an entire 15 percent of the population to participate?

mellaneous said...

Some comments from Minnesotans about what Bachman had to say:

"Bachmann may have been re-elected but it's time for the people to remove her. She has once again gone overboard with her BIG MOUTH. Yes, I am white, yes, I see that the blacks were not given the same farm subsidies that white farmers were given, yes including her family relatives, yes, there are less black farmers since they shut down do to the failure of paying them like white folks."

"Bachmann is a classic example of the White privilege theory...Wonder where her land came from in the first place...Stolen from the American Indians and then her family Inherited it most likely. Wake up America racism is alive and well here in the USA."

Anonymous said...

Ms Bachman has the taxbagger Entitlement...that only wites are deserving and only AfAms are shiftless, lazy parasites upon the body politic.
It scares them to realize that all the goodies aren't theirs, no matter how much their ancestors stole from the Natives or minority citizens.
Most of the wites weeping about how those eveel 'urban' folk done stole jobs they-uns deserved...seem to have a marked lack of qualifications and achievements. Like they can't be happy unless there is 'at leasts I aint no migger' available...or that others are more unfortunate.
Yes, the Palins will outbreed those with earned degrees. Bristol already has two...and Willow is listed in the Alaskan Gossip Blogs.
I will agree with the poster who identified Rs with projection. Mark Foley, Vitter, bush, Cheney, Bybee, Addington, Goodling, van Spassovsky, Cantor, Toomey...pretty much anything they accuse others of doing seems to be to deflect attention from their own sins. Sort of the snitch yelling that you cheat...as they text the test from 'self-interested Randian Galtermen'.
Gah, I am so old I remember Rs who didn't smear feces on their face and call it chocolate.

Mold

uptownsteve said...

Pilot X and Mellaneous

Good job explaining the absurdity of white folks complaining about AA.

Anonymous

"It would be, if that were the case, but it's not and you know it."

Typical pinhead righty.

In the face of overwhelming evidence, you simply reply.........
"Nuh-Uh".

PilotX said...

Exactly Mell, the present is a direct result of the past. Many whites like to ignore history or when you bring up how past wrongs affect the present it's called "blame 'merica". You can't just ignore things and make them go away. Take for another example the 1921 Tulsa riots, I suggest everyone google this. In the 20's Black people owned businesses, banks, owned airplanes, were doctors, lawyers, ect and all of this in 1921! It blew my mind to know sistas and brothas owned an airport and planes in 1921 Oklahoma. But as you know jealous whites couldn't handle the Black Wall Street and killed a bunch of us and burned it all down. My question is if these people had been allowed to just mind their own business how much would their land and businesses be worth today? And the ancestors of these good people are having to fight to get reparations. My guess is that their descendants would be worth billions and then we have to ask ourselves how many times in Amerikkka did scenes like that play out? Rosewood anyone? Rich whites weren't killed and their wealth robbed.

Anonymous said...

engx,
Ahem-
Some of us have actual, like, experience in the Engineering and Scientific worlds. Please don't pretend that minorities had such preferences. We, like, know better.
I will recount to you what an employer once told me...We tell the stoopid and lazy sh*ts that we had to hire a X(minority). It shuts the dumba** up and redirects their hatred to someone else'.
We both had a laugh that not one stoopid in over ten years ever figured out that they were woefully inadequate for the position...proving our hypothesis correct. Even today, hearing the JesseHelms fake ad about wites being more qualified makes me snicker...how can an adult be so clueless?

Mold

PilotX said...

@EngX, how many white males are employed in your industry? In mine it's over 85%. So we have to ask ourselves is AA even working? I agree that no one should be hired simply for their skin color but I ask how many white males feel the same way you do? How many WMs feel that they are under attack and victimized? Now how many of these WMs are in positions of power? Most positions of power are given to people who have been on the job a while and know the ropes and since for so many years only WMs were hired who does that fall on? So because many WMs are in control of hiring and feel victimized and under attack so who do you think he is going to show preference to? My guess is over 80% of engineers are WMs so just by looking at the numbers your argument seems skewed. AA means recruiting "qualified" women and people of color and getting them to go into fields they are underrepresentated. I am curious, what is the percentage of WMs in your field EngX?

alicia banks said...

gcv:

we are cool always

no problem!

thanks!

PilotX said...

My question is when will WMs not feel victimized? They had AA for over 200 years in every field and even though they are what 25% of the population they bitch when they are 80+% of an industry. When is enough enough? 99.9%? Jeezus. I get it sometimes when WMs complain that somehow I or a woman "stole" a job that was rightfull theirs. Me being me I like to know details so I ask what their qualifications are and 9 times out of 10 they lack something. "Well do you have a college degree"? "Uh no but......" or "Do you have an issues with your driving record"? "Well I have a couple DUI's but........" Ya know F you, I worked just as hard as you did and I kept my nose clean so when I got my shot I was prepared. WMs seem to have this sense of entitlement and arrogance that would choke a Lakers fan in Jersey. Believe it or not some of "us" are actually qualified and are actually good at what we do. I know it's hard to believe that sometimes the best person for the job is actually a woman or person of color. Shocking but I know you won't believe me.

mellaneous said...

thanks for the props Uptown.

SOME FACTS:

I just noticed what Brohamas said and he makes a point, that some folks who don't understand what happened may see this settlement incorrectly and as some kind of handout.

So I will try for those who really want to understand what happened here, but it is somewhat of a long story, so I will try to direct folks to websites.

Let me begin by saying that the 1.2 billion is part of the settlement of a lawsuit. Now folks have to understand that to get anything in a lawsuit you have to make your case.

So the first thing to understand is that the black farmers brought a case against the USDA saying that they were discriminated against when it came to securing farm loans.

Anyone who knows anything about farming knows that most farmers depend heavily on loans.

It benefits the government to have flourishing farms, so they help farmers with local gov't loan agencies which help farmers secure loans for seed and equipment and other needs, and yes sometimes even subsidies.

Well for years this aide was never provided to black farmers. And the suit is saying that not only did they not secure help that was given to white farmers but it was denied "purposely."(Please note that the federal court agreed and thus awarded damages)

As a result of the failure to secure any aide or help, thousands of black farms simply went under. The number is vast and the reason many folks who aren't in the know are shocked by the large numbers, is because they have been led to believe that black folks didn't own farms. Of course some of these same folks believe that black folks were not resourceful enough or were too lazy to work farms lol

Ironically, many of these farms that failed as a result of not being able to get help their white neighbors were getting were actually acquired by white farmers.

The award which is a pittance when you do the math and consider how many farmers were actually affected is only an attempt to compensate these farmers for their loss.

And note this is just for farmers who were discriminated against in more recent history.

Black farmers in the first half of the last century were often defrauded by individuals and sometimes towns and counties who would sometime lie about the ownership of the farm or misplace paper work and allow a white farmer to steal black land through paper fraud. And sometime black farms were taken at gunpoint or black farmers were terrorized into running away and leaving their farms behind.

uptownsteve said...

How did we let this anon pantlaod flip the script on us by yapping about AA?

This thread was about deserving black people being denied government largesse that was liberally being doled out to whites.

Jim Crow
Levittown
White Flight

Welcome to A-Merry-CA!!

PilotX said...

Good question UTS. Another example of a WM trying to insert himself into everything. This should be a cozy spot for folks to chat about our stories but as always can't let us have shit. Modern day Tulsa.`Go to stormfront or someother white supremecist website and leave us alone;-)

mellaneous said...

con't

The original suit which was entitled Pigford vs. Glickman was settled in 1997 but offered $50,000to those who could prove that 1) they had filed a discrimination claim and 2) they met the criteria of the suit. At the time the government dragged its feet in paying out the settlement money and made the farmers jump through incredible hoops. In fact only 60 percent who filed actually were compensated.

There was also a provision made for farmers who said their damage from discrimination was much larger. A very small number of black farmers were able to jump through this hoop.

So the fraud claims are made by folks who have no idea what the process was or just how carefully scrutinized they were.

Another lawsuit was filed because the practice of discrimination continued and more black farmers were affected.

And that lawsuit was filed because the promised monies were not being distributed.


Some of the background can be found here at:

mellaneous said...

sorry about that but here are some places to get some background,

basic info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigford_v._Glickman

USDA response to lies that have been spread
http://www.mediaite.com/online/usda-responds-to-andrew-breitbart-and-rep-steve-king-on-black-farmer-settlement/

excellent in depth history of the lawsuit and the gov'ts finding, must read if you sincerely want to know how this suit came about

http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/crs/RS20430.pdf

engX said...

PilotX:
"This should be a cozy spot for folks to chat about our stories but as always can't let us have shit."


Just trying to inject a little reality into the discussion. But you don't want to hear any truth that threatens to pop your bubble; lies are much more comforting.

The truth shall set you free, but you'd rather wrap yourself in chains. Slavecatchers like UTS will never let you escape the plantation.

I'll leave you to stroke each other's misconceptions.

Anonymous said...

"Some of us have actual, like, experience in the Engineering and Scientific worlds."

I am 100% positive Mold does not have any actual experience with any sort of employment that requires even a modicum of intellectual competency.

word.

Anonymous said...

PilotX said...
Good question UTS. Another example of a WM trying to insert himself into everything. This should be a cozy spot for folks to chat about our stories but as always can't let us have shit. Modern day Tulsa.`Go to stormfront or someother white supremecist website and leave us alone;-)

Right, because you can't keep up with the truth. Or should I say compete. It always amazes me that idiots talk about White Flight like they should stay and live next to the people who dont take care of where they live and dramatically increase crime. Tim after time previously poor white neighborhoods turn into hell on earth when others move in and start destroying it. Is that a lie? Is that because of some shit that happened in history? I bet you a dozen entitlements Pilot X (who represents 12% of the population yet is not happy that there are 85% white pilots in his job (should they lower the test requirements for Pilots now too Pilot X? I will bet you that Pilot X lives in a nice white safe neighborhood. Where a hood rat gets a beatdown or arrested instead of treated like a hero being part of the "dont snitch" culture.

uptownsteve said...

engX

"Just trying to inject a little reality into the discussion. But you don't want to hear any truth that threatens to pop your bubble; lies are much more comforting."

Speaking of little bubbles, do you mind telling us how affirmative action helps one to perform their job or complete school assignments?

Take all the time you need.

mellaneous said...

engX I was trying to hear you why don't you take on my question.

The bottom line is we can go on missing where one another is coming from and where will that lead us.

I extended an invitation to hear what you think should have been the solution for years of JIm Crow segregation and discrimination.

The truth is that if someone is wronged in this society they usually seek some kind of just compensation. Thats why we have the civil courts and even criminal courts.

I agree that it sounds like a bad deal but what should be done that will eliminate the bad feelings?

Personally I think if me and you. Yes if you and me and folks who look like you and me work to create a society in which we don't have to consider anything but merit then we may actually get somewhere.

I mean you have to know coming on a primarily black website and getting into pissing contests is not going to advance anything.

But I am saying I hear your complaint and understand that I might feel the same way that is that maybe this isn't fair and why did the ruling class make me pay for something they did.

So my friend what do you think about my suggestion that we work toward a more equitable and fair society?

What is your solution?

uptownsteve said...

engX

"It always amazes me that idiots talk about White Flight like they should stay and live next to the people who dont take care of where they live and dramatically increase crime."

puh-leeze.

It's a known fact that the first blacks to integrate previously all-white urban enclaves were better educated and better salaried than the whites in that neighborhood.

Then in come the blockbusters convincing the racists that their property is being devalued because of the influx of blacks and latinos.

So the whites sell at a loss then the realtors actually jackup the pricing of the homes and carve one family domains into 3 apartment units and charge everyone top price.

Areas that previously held 5,000 people were soon home to 20,000. Factor in unemployment and drugs and you soon have a ghetto.

This was done all over cities like NYC, Chicago, Philly and Cleveland.

You can't handle the truth.

mellaneous said...

And EngX please explain what you mean when you say "truth." What truth are we on this thread missing? Or are you referring to the truths that some whites think in terms of Affirmative Action.

I really want to know what you think?

I think Pilot and UTS as well want to know what you think.

The reason you got negative responses to your initial posts is that you implied that black folks were not qualified for the positions they hold.

You have to know that is considered offensive by black folks who also know that many whites succeeded because they didn't have to compete with everybody and they too were gauranteed positions and job security. You have to know that, that blade in actuality cuts both ways.

Come on back engage us. I want to know what we can do besides throw rocks at one another. If you didn't know already it only serves the interest of the really rich and powerful for us to remain divided and at odds while they secure bank bailouts and the like.

And BTW the largest government subsidies don't go to small farmers white or black but to corporate farms. What does that tell you.

While you are looking at us poor black folks as the problem and we are pissed at you the bigshots look at us and our disempowering squabbles and laugh themselves to death, on the way to the bank.

mellaneous said...

USDA's response to right wing attemtpts to make racist propaganda out of the black farmer settlement.

"These accusations are nothing more than an attempt to derail an effort to provide long-overdue compensation to thousands of farmers who were discriminated against over several decades. Current census numbers on black farmers are not the proper guide for the number of claimants, and certainly no basis for allegations of fraud. Out of the 15,000 claims processed under Pigford I, the FBI determined that only 3 claims were fraudulent, and this Administration is committed to ensuring that the new claims process has integrity and provides justice to those who have suffered discrimination."

Hathor said...

EngX,
I want to know like UTS. Didn't see them giving me a different test than men and oddly enough, I haven't noticed industry over run with women engineers.

uptownsteve said...

Don't worry folks, anon/eng is gone for the day.

Easiest way to get rid of these trolls is to challenge them to prove their baseless assertions.

mellaneous said...

You know Steve whats really dissapointing is that folks like Eng really feel like they have been wronged.

And from his perspective he has been wronged I get that.But then he has an opportunity to look at it from a different perspective and look at who is really pulling the coat strings and then he and folks like him don't want to continue the dialogue.

He talked about bringing "reality" and "truth" to our discussion but it appears he didn't want to acknowledge our truth, nor our reality, or at least say I hadn't considered that before.

And he really didn't want to acknowledge that he didn't have all the truth about preferences and that his little corner of the world was just his littl corner.

He didn't acknowledge why his corporation was attempting to hire more blacks or women. He didn't even acknowledge that there must be something wrong since they had to make an extra attempt to acknowledge these folks.

Its dissapointing that he didn't want to really listen to people tell him why things are the way that they are, and why did he not realize that it's insulting to imply that folks like us were hired because of a preference. Why couldn't we have spots reserved and be qualified for the spots?

engX said...

mellaneous said..."So my friend what do you think about my suggestion that we work toward a more equitable and fair society? What is your solution?"

Let's go to a completely race, gender, etc. neutral position - complete equality under the law for all people. If white people didn't have affirmative action to complain about, we could all take an unvarnished look at how fair our society was. Obama should declare victory in the half-century old War on Discrimination, which has been estimated costs 8 percent of a year’s GDP, or over a trillion dollars. He has the moral standing to pull off the "admission against interest", just as, if the election had gone the other way, McCain would have been politically well-positioned to do—if he so chose—would have been to use his military reputation to instead declare victory in the expensive war in Afghanistan and bring the troops home.

This would bring the country together, fufill the promise of a post-racial America and Obama would soar to re-election in 2012. He wuld be rembered as a great President who really did change America.


mellaneous: "The reason you got negative responses to your initial posts is that you implied that black folks were not qualified for the positions they hold."

I never did. I merely stated the truth that, for the past 40+ years, it has been legal to discrminate against white males and to make hiring decisions based on other criteria than just merit. If you hire this way, you are bound to wind up with people that are not fully qualified for their jobs - this is not saying that there is anything inherent about blacks that makes them unqualified - only that a skewed criteria results in skewed results.

engX said...

Hathor said...
"EngX,
I want to know like UTS. Didn't see them giving me a different test than men and oddly enough, I haven't noticed industry over run with women engineers."

I have worked with female engineers much smarter than I and watched them achieve great success. I have also worked with female engineers who were lazy and selfish and who got promoted anyway, because the company was desperate to keep such a limited resource (female engineers are relatively rare).

Many women have the ability but don't want to be engineers. It's hard to get through school, and other professions can pay better with much less effort. Most women engineers I have worked with move quickly into management or sales - they have a lot of options because of their relative rarity.

PilotX said...

Like you EngX I have worked with many lazy and inept white males so maybe it's like Chris Rock said, when you can have a Black guy that sucks then we're all equal. The problem exists when the majority of your profession are Wms and they have the same attitude you carry as being victimized. You didn't answer my question, what percentage of your fellow engineers are white males. If the vast majority are white males and they feel victimized by AA what do you think that does when it comes to hiring? And no there is no lowering of standards in aviation as we all have to meet FAA standards. We can get more Black pilots and women pilots by focusing our attention on the fact we need more and recruit them. I go to schools and talk ect. so it has to start early. Another question, if many of those 1,000 Tuskegee Airmen had become airline pilots would we see more Black pilots today? If we were systematically kept out of those jobs how do we make up for it? So it was ok to disriminate against us for decades and now we want to say everything is equal? Hell, if things were equal we wouldn't need AA. Dude, even with AA you still represent a vast majority what else do you want?

PilotX said...

Funny guys like EngX bitch about organizations like Organization of Black Airline Pilots and the Hispanic Professional Pilots Association and Women in Aviation because "we don't have a white male organization" but dont realize they don't need one. Blacks make up less than 2% of profesional pilots and we feel the need to promote aviation to our youth. At 85% of the industry I have to ask, do you see a need for a white male pilot organization? If so start one and don't down us for trying to even out the playing field.
@anon, I live in a Black community so wow you're wrong again. And for the record there are "safe" Black middle class communities but of course you knew that right? Or are you a racist?

engX said...

PilotX: "We can get more Black pilots and women pilots by focusing our attention on the fact we need more and recruit them."

Why do you need to recruit them? Why does the race or gender of a pilot matter? What's important is that there aren't barriers, and I'm pretty sure there are not.



PilotX: "Another question, if many of those 1,000 Tuskegee Airmen had become airline pilots would we see more Black pilots today? If we were systematically kept out of those jobs how do we make up for it? So it was ok to disriminate against us for decades and now we want to say everything is equal? Hell, if things were equal we wouldn't need AA. Dude, even with AA you still represent a vast majority what else do you want?"

Well for starters, whites are still a "vast majority" in this country, so it would make sense that they comprise a vast majority of many professions. All I want is a level playing field for everyone.

And to turn your question around, if is was wrong to discriminate in the 1950's, then it is still wrong today, even if the beneficiaries have switched.

Most of the Tuskegee airmen are probably dead by now, so you can't give them a job. It would have been a great thing in 1960's, but it's 2010 now. The fact that you are a pilot means those barriers no longer exist, correct?



PilotX: "Funny guys like EngX bitch about organizations like Organization of Black Airline Pilots and the Hispanic Professional Pilots Association and Women in Aviation"

I never said a word about any of these organizations, in fact i regard them positively.

Hathor said...

EngX,

If you think the women were lazy and got promoted, then you haven't worked with enough white engineers or male engineers. I've notice that when a male can't tie his shoes other men still think that his mechanical ability comes with the "Y" chromosome. I'd say that is the AA of gender.

It is also interesting that you say women engineers are rare, but use the small sample you know to make conclusions about AA. Those ladies just may be better at playing office politics than you or a result of the Peter Principle. This was observed in 1969.

Rudy said...

Why is that some of the same people who parrot, "make decisions based on merit" are some of the same people who rely on inside connections (i.e., good ol' boy network) to get what they want?

Remember the University of Illinois admissions scandal? I bet some, if not all, of the parents of the kids (white kids) who gained admission, parrot that same, "make decisions based on merit" bullshit.

I have seen it with my own two eyes folks of the "conservative persuasion" who got jobs just because they "knew somebody." But yet, they will get all preachy about meritocracy when they see someone, who is "qualified" and other than their ilk get hired.

Hypocrisy makes me sick.

engX said...

Hathor said...
"If you think the women were lazy and got promoted, then you haven't worked with enough white engineers or male engineers"

You make absolutely no sense. Nothing I said about some of the female engineers I worked with precluded the existence of lazy white male engineers. There are plenty.

The point was that I had personally seen underperforming women engineers promoted solely because they were women.

I also said I had personally seen high performing female engineers do well.

And of course the sample based on my personal experience can't completely describe the wider world, but I have been doing this 30 years and have seen quite a lot.

mellaneous said...

Eng X ditto your earlier remarks!I think you have something there and thanks for not running off and keeping the conversation going. I think a lot of folks can learn something from our conversaton today.

If you notice I don't try to sidestep your frustration. I sympathize. I think we both have been set up to look at one another as the problem or even women. And the problems lie deeper than that.

For example if my kid and your kid get the same opportunity to succeed then noone has anything to complain about. The problem is the rural Appalachian kid the ghetto child in Cleveland and sometimes the factory workers kid don't have access to the kinds of education that the children that grow up in wealthy suburbs get. And until that happens we will continue to look at one another with suspicion.

In fact part of the reason folks suspect sometimes that blacks are not qualified is because they know racism exists and what they are sometimes saying is; the likelihood is great that you got a second class education and second class training and since your people have been portrayed as second class how in the world did you get this first class job.

So the solution is to move away from a color and class based society. Its not a utopia or a perfect solution but you are right we could begin to work toward it by cutting back defense spending, leaving Afghanistan, and educating everyone that is giving everyone a shot at an equal education.
And we need folks from your community to take a long look at the justice system which doesn't work the same for poor folks especially poor blacks as it does for better off whites.

YOur folks would have to admit that the criminal justice system is looking for a certain type of perpetrator. and the reason for that is to continue the stereotype. And folks would have to admit that,yeah if you gave the vast majority of the law breakers a real shot at success and a decent income they would take it.

Then we could spend money so that everybody who wants a job could get one and get one that will pay the bills. The answer would also lie in making the banks play fair as well,with everyone. And force the corportations to make products as if they depended on them as well.

Anyway I think we have the beginnings of what may solve the problem.

Hathor said...

EngX,
It is not what you have seen, it is your inferences.

engX said...

mellaneous said..."if my kid and your kid get the same opportunity to succeed then noone has anything to complain about."

Yes but equality under the law is not the same thing as equality of position.

My daughter will never have the same access to the kinds of education and connections that Bill Gates' daughter does, that's just a simple fact of life. Some people are born on third base, and some people have to take their own swings. I don't have a problem with that, there is honor in doing it on one's own.

The most important thing is equality under the law - that we at least get an at bat, start with a 0-0 count and get the same strike zone. People who play the same game on the same field are more likely to identify with one another.

I'm sorry things were so bad in the past, that many people weren't even allowed to step up to the plate. But I've lived my entire life playing a different game - most of my career - and I think that's should be enough so that my kids generation shouldn't have to do it too. Until all discrimination is forbidden, we are just kicking the can of injustice down the road.

PilotX said...

Good points EngX. I am Black and I do have a problem when we make up 12% or so of the population and only 1.4% or so of professional pilots. Why should it matter what race or gender well because for so long it did matter and we were kept out of those jobs and that is why we are only 1.4% There are a few Tuskegee Airmen still around and actually I'll be attending my uncle's 90th birthday party on Saturday. I see we live in two different worlds, found this out in college after the OJ verdict. It kinda amazes me that you don't see why white males make up the vast majority of airline pilots and now want to push the reset button. But to really answer your question in our industry we need diversity because it makes our culture better i.e. less sexism with more women ect. Things are not equal because certain professions require special instruction and by and large my people lack that instruction so many times I'm the first airline pilot many kids have ever met and to me that's a problem. I want to see my profession reflect our country because without diversity too many negative stereotypes and attitudes manifest and that is never a good thing. Fact is it's a pretty good job and for years we were kept from it so now my goal is to make it more accessible.I try not to be a hypocrite so if aviation was overrun with women and people of color I would do what I could to get more white males but that is not the case. No one group should be overrepresented. Fair is fair.

PilotX said...

But on the realy real, aviation is a very closed tightnit community. Jobs are sometimes hard to come by and you have to know somebody somewhere to get your foot in the door. That's the biggest reason we need more diversity so when that knock comes to the door many different faces will be able to answer it.
EngX you are right on one count, many jobs in my past have been because of my skin tone. only one person was honest enough to tell me so, of course I turned the offer down but I would love one day to be judged based only on my performance and not because of what I look like or what the last guy who looked like me did. Maybe my kids will see that day. Right or wrong bad or good that's the bag I'm in and nothing I can do about it. Guess it's better than being strung up because of my tone huh?

PilotX said...

We all want equality EngX but because too many white males did not have the same sense of fairness you do we are in the situation we are in today. Look at it this way, if your daughter decides to become an engineer like yourself it will be much easier for her than for the child of a janitor. You know how much math and science it takes so you will make sure she learns algebra at age 6 and calculus at 8 and so forth. For so many years whites had this advantage because they were allowed into such positions. My generation was the first to not have to deal with outright bigotry and discrimination. It may take a generation or two but one day the field will truly be equal but don't dismiss the fact you had an advantage. For far too long white males ruled the roost and now things are starting to tilt against them and you guys are losing your minds. Blame your dad's generation for letting things get so out of whack. Hell, you say we've had 50 years of equality and yet WMs still dominate so many endeavors, that should tell you how much and advantage and how big of an advantage they had. And maybe it's not you but most of you guys are the biggest whiners. If I worked in an environment where 80% of the people looked, thought and acted like me I'd thank the gods everyday and not moan when some other gender or race got a chance but that's just me.