A local politician who happens to be a friend of mine asked me a few weeks back why I talk so much shit on my blog. "Field, I hope you know that if you ever decide to run for Judge or elected office some of that shit will come back to haunt you". He is right of course, but you know what, if keeping my mouth shut and suppressing my thoughts is what it takes to get elected, they can have that shit. I have heard the same thing about my politics. "Field, you know if you were a right wing conservative you would be blowing up by now." Yeah that might be true too, but I am not. And since my politics just might be left of Hugo fucking Chavez that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. It's just not what I believe, so I can't pimp the man like some of my "slave catching" brothers and sisters to make a few dollars.
Which leads me to the following article by my man Tim Wise. (Yeah I have been all over his jock lately). It's a shame that it takes someone of the melanin challenged persuasion to call out some of these so called black conservatives for the frauds that they really are. Just some of them of course...well, most of them-- Because I am quite sure that there might be one or two in the bunch who might really believe what they are saying and think that their point of view is relevant.
So anyway, here is Tim:
"Black conservatives, with their politics of self-abuse, have managed to obtain access to the halls of power – at the expense of respect from within the black community.
A few weeks ago, a young man approached me after a speech I had given at his college and handed me a small piece of paper with the name of a book he thought I should read. Given that the student and I had previously gotten into a bit of a row over the issue of racial profiling of Arabs, I didn't have high expectations about his recommendation.
A few weeks ago, a young man approached me after a speech I had given at his college and handed me a small piece of paper with the name of a book he thought I should read. Given that the student and I had previously gotten into a bit of a row over the issue of racial profiling of Arabs, I didn't have high expectations about his recommendation.
I suppose it's a good thing I was prepared for what I got: the name of a book by black conservative Larry Elder, whose only real claim to fame is that he does a bad imitation of Judge Wapner on a pedantic little courtroom reality show called Moral Court.
Oh, and that white folks like the student in question really like him. Which, as it turns out, is all it takes to become a bestselling author in this country.
Elder – like Shelby S
teele before him, and Walter Williams before that, and Ken Hamblin before that, and Thomas Sowell before him, and Clarence Thomas always – says the kinds of things that most white folks love to hear: essentially, that blacks are the source of their own problems in life. Black cultural pathology and bad behavior, according to these types, explain everything from black poverty rates to black incarceration rates. What about racism?, you may ask. What racism? To the Larry Elders of the world – and to the whites who have made them media stars entirely out of proportion to their scholarly credentials (or decided lack thereof) – racism is just an excuse black people use to explain away their own internal shortcomings.
Lately, two of the more popular arguments made by black conservatives and the white people who love them are, first, that blacks spend too much money on luxury items they can't afford, refusing to save money the way responsible white folks do; and second, that blacks place too little value on education, preferring to critique learning as selling out or "acting white," and thereby sabotaging their own achievement..." more here
He could have thrown a few more of those clowns in the mix of course. Like my friend Angela, LaShawn Barber, and the idiot who Obama should be sending thank you cards every day for the rest of his life, Alan Keyes. ("Christ wouldn't vote for Obama"? Are you fucking insane?) And speaking of the "O" man, he doesn't go into that mix, because there is no hustle there. He is trying to appeal to all A-merry-cans. Not just the loons on the right like my race pimp friends. And not just to the folks on the left either. Which has cost him capital among certain black folks who think he is more of the same with just a little more color.
But hey, I am going to leave my black conservative friends alone. This is A-merry-ca, and everyone has a right to make a living. Even if they have to hustle to do it.
53 comments:
"Black Conservatives and the WHite People Who Love Them." I'm waiting with baited breath for that book to come out, LOL.
There is a case to be made for facing and solving our own problems, but the Larry Elders of the world do nothing to this end. They write books that assuage white guilt, but do they tutor Black children or give some of that best-selling book money to the UNCF? Not that I've ever heard.
Clarence Thomas isn't trying to appease anyone, Field. Has it occurred to you that maybe that's just who he is? He was raised to be a down to earth guy by his grandfather. What's wrong with ideological diversity within a group of people anyhow? Who are you to tell people of your color that's they are sellouts for not agreeing with you? This is the first post that I really disagree with. Just accepting the dogma being fed by the DNC isn't enough. New drilling for oil = good, raising taxes on gas = bad. Wow. I'm pissed.
06 11 08
Hehehe FN:
I think Szechuanpork has a point, but I have been frequenting your blog long enough to know you aren't that obtuse.
It is sad that many who label themselves as BLACK cons do have a bit of self effacement going on. I know because at some point, I was branded a Black Con by some in that circle and by others outside of it. But after all is said and done, however, I believe that we should take personal responsibility for our actions, but also realize that mentoring and exposure make all the difference in the world->which is why I tutor NCLB AND out of pocket clients.
As to SP's comment about Clarence Thomas, you and I have always disagreed about him because I consider him to be a field negro in disguise given some of his case dissents...
As to Shelby Steele, Thomas Sowell, Larry Elders and all of them, well sometimes they sadden me because I feel as though they are divorced from reality. Each one of them seems to create an alternate reality to justify their biases.
Good post.
"But hey, I am going to leave my black conservative friends alone. This is A-merry-ca, and everyone has a right to make a living. Even if they have to hustle to do it."
But some lack the talent or luck to even make a living off of it, like your boy Desmond at Afronerd.
Who's Angela, by the way?
I heard Tim Wise speak here in California. He pointed out that it was unfortunate but true that he could make white people listen to things that they would dismiss if they heard them from a Black person. Sad but true. He spoke in front of several hundred people. A year earlier, Randall Robinson spoke at the same venue to a couple dozen people.
I believe it was Bruce Dixon from Black Agenda Report who found out that almost all of the Black conservative "leaders" were on the same payroll: The Hoover Institute at Stanford.
A while ago, in reading a business paper published by Indian immigrants, I learned that South Asians are the single most loyal Democratic demographic. They vote 99% Democrat. An attempt was made to claim that there was an upsurge of Indian and Pakistani Republicans who were following a new generation of conservative immigrant leaders. The upsurge turned out to be one guy, who was also the only identifiable member of the new generation. Behind him? Big money from conservative think tanks.
Then there's the split in the Episcopal Church with the African Bishop fighting the American Bishops over the ordination of gay priests. Is there money behind that? You bet. Big money. From where? These United States and it is not coming from Episcopal conservatives. It is coming from conservative groups who are funding a schism in a traditionally liberal mainstream church.
Even after you've bought your own island in Dubai there's still money left to create conservatives where there are, in fact, none.
Like I wrote on yesterday, I have mixed feelings about this. It's okay for you to enjoy Tim Wise. You are a grown man and can promote any writer you choose. (A lot of my readers are jealous that I'm promoting a new guy on my blog, but eff'em).
However, I don't think Tim Wise can point the finger at any black conservative, any more than he can call out a white liberal for playing on our emotions.
I disagree with those who feel that it's just a sign of inner disgust within the white race. There are a lot of good white people, but then there are those who are complacent in their lack of concern for minorities.
Hell, I'm an independent conservative with a slightly liberal side. So, I'm an Uncle Tom now, Uncle Tim? I think not. I'm a black man comfortable in my own skin. I don't need a white guy critiquing my assessment of my own identity. Hell, if a black person wants to be a Republican- let them Gadammit!!! It pisses me off that blacks do the clique system in politics. You should believe what you wanna believe and not be called a House Negro for it. But I'm sorry, Oh Great One. Maybe I'll end up in your sidebar for having some balls rather than the right level of melanin.
I think Tim needs to STFU before I pay a visit to his blog and read him his rights.
I agree it is more than okay for the right to be this passionate but not the left. that's wrong I often wonder if what i say will come back on me
PLEASE CHECK MY BLOG OUT I THINK YOU WILL LIKE THE POST
Hiram Rhoades Revels, the man who gave away the 40 acres and the mule. Yes, he gave Massa back his land. I always think of Revels and John Brown, a reminder NOT to make any decisions based on race.
P.S. and watch out for preachers.
Tim Wise makes his living on criticizing white supremacy. Does he believe what he says or did he just find a really lucrative hustle? As far as party affiliation goes - well despite an individual's choice the line in the sand between Dumbocrat and Rethug are pretty clear. The Rethugs are kept on a very tight leash voting for what the Party leaders says to mostly or they find a way to boot you out. There are few exceptions to this rule. It's why McCain is tolerated by a lot and why he's had to tow the line and run on a nearly identical platform to Shrub. No creativity allowed! Dumbocrats are a mess, they allow for defectors and have rubber stamped almost everything Bush has put before them. They all suck to varying degrees and we deserve almost as much blame for letting it deteriorate. Of course the lobbyists and special interests don't help us. A complete overhaul is necessary and I like what Obama is trying to do. We need to do the rest and stop waiting to see a few people out there fighting the good fight while we dip our toe in the water.
heartsandflowers said...
"Tim Wise makes his living on criticizing white supremacy. Does he believe what he says or did he just find a really lucrative hustle?
I hear you, but consider this:
Should the test be about whether "he [Wise] believes what he says"?
Shouldn't it be about whether he's telling the truth, and how many converts he's gaining by telling the truth?
For every example you give me of someone who makes a living by not hustling, I can give you ten where the "hustle" is vigorously practiced, and the practitioners are upstanding contributors to the community.
Just Spreading the word:
Gina M of What About Our Daughters is at it again - thank goodness.
When discussing the infamous Michelle tape at WAOD, Gina had the following observation:
Volunteer Michelle Media Monitors
This whole infamous tape stuff is just a sliver of what Michelle Obama is going to face in the media. So because I predict getting a flurry of emails from now until November, I am going to be proactive and start a separate Michelle Obama blog to track every article, blog post, youtube clip that pops up and provide you an opportunity to respond. Because if the past is any indicator, the campaign has no problem with her being turned into a verbal punching bag, I DO! IF you want to volunteer and want to post updates on the blog, send an email to the gmail account in the right sidebar. Its going to be a LONG hot SUMMER!
Whether you support her husband or not. Let's be clear, any and every Black woman that walks in her footsteps can expect the same treatment so we might as well pull a Gandolf, draw a line in the stand and yell "THOU SHALL NOT PASS!" This ain't about Barack, its about every professional Black woman that has had to smile on the days she didn't want to for fear of being labeled ANGRY.
Gina kept her word, and has now created Michelle Obama Watch.
I know there are many here at Field Negro who form that protective circle around Michelle, so I thought I would spread the word.
I detest Larry Elder.
He's the Black male version of Laura Schlessinger: moralistic, judgmental, autocratic, caustic, holier-than-thou.
But hey, it's better than working 12 hour shifts at Home Depot, right Larry?
Folks can believe what they want. However, I've always wondered what is it that far right black conservatives want so badly to conserve? JIm Crow?
Thanks for that link Rikyrah. The campaign is giving her extra staffers to deal with the ugliness that will be going down this fall.
sczhen...I respect your position on CT. But sorry,I know quite a bit about this man, and trust me when I tell you, he is not about uplifting his race OR his family. But I will leave it at that.
And no, I do NOT believe that we should be monolithic thinkers. Trust me, if you read some of my posts you will realize that I am not beholding to folks on the left or the right. I get just as much hate mail from black folks who consider themselves nationalist and separatist as I do from right wingers and conservatives.
As for Tim Wise being a race hustler from the other side. heartsandflowers I would ask you to consider what jon said in his comments, and get back to me on that.
There are conservatives both popular and not who I do respect.-- My friend mahndisa comes to mind-- And believe it or not, I actually like Shelby Steele. So this debate is not as simplistic as being on the lelft or the right ideologically. It's about the folks who have decided to carry the message to the masses, and what their TRUE motivations are.
c-dell, how are thhings in the Northern part of the boot? Nice to hear from you. I will be over at your site to check out your latest post.
FYI - Fox News called Michelle, Barack's Baby Mama. sigh. It's already starting and it's only June.
They...did NOT just call Michelle Obama, the wife and mother of his two daughters, his "baby mama"???!!???
Field - Outstanding post. Why is that people who speak their mind and tell the truth cannot get elected?
By the way, it is refreshing to see the quality and number of really excellent responses posted here. While we don't always agree with one another there is a tremendous amount of respect for what each of us has to say. Nice community, this.
Ya know, Alan Keyes, Thomas Sowell and the like are all pretty much irrelavent. Until all oppressed people come together in one massive block of power, nothing is going to change. Meanwhile, the stick Elder outthere for thee black community to fight over, they scream in the ear of ignorant whites that some politician is going to take away their guns, kill their babies and outlaw their god. Instead of coming together on these things, we fight amonst and between ourselves exactly the way THE MAN wants us to.
The REAL poverty Pimps. When someone black get in a jam, who do you call? Jesse ,Al, Minister Farrakhan, even the AfroSpear, but certainly none of the foolish Toms you mentioned.Who the hell have they help besides themselves.Who said you can't make money off racism.
don't worry W.B., I'm on Tim Wise's jock also i love his work he and Noam Chomsky they tell it like it is not bad for 2 jewish white men, no disrespect! because truth is truth ,whites need to hear it from their own so then they can't say blacks are playing the race card and there is no racism
Off topic, kinda... but a little humor, which we can all certainly use!
I'm Voting Republican:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQJ9Xp0xxU
What Tim Wise describes is good old-fashioned Negro self-hatred.
But, guess what? The minute any of them get caught up in discrimination so thick it can be sliced with knives, they're going to be calling us to give shout outs about their predicament, and begging for help and shelter in the Black Community.
Depending on how much money they made on self-hatred and making whites comfortable with them by lying about the rest of the Black Race will determine if Jesse or Al gets the call. Jesse's more forgiving - Al won't take the case unless he gets fat payola, because they both know to come to the Black community in their defense is going to get a big "GTHOFH!" from everybody while they piss on them.
if more people actually got off their ass and voted... people like yourself would have no problem getting elected to any office.
A Merry Ca isn't as conservative and straightlaced as they would want people to believe.
"FAUX NEWS ONCE AGAIN PROVING WHY THEY ARE THE SKID MARKS ON THE UNDERPANTS OF SOCIETY"
So I was over at Huffingtonpost.com
and was pretty disturbed at something I read...Now I knew Faux news was bad..but I didn't know it was this bad. They have already had to fire an anchor woman for referring to Barack and Michelle's fist bump as a "terrorist fist jab." Now some other simple ass chick has called Michelle, "Barack's Baby Mama"... I think we really need to do something about this news.
HERE'S THE LINK
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/11/fox-news-calls-michelle-o_n_106655.html
@The Christian Progressive Liberal I agree with that statement the minute any of them get caught up in discrimination or want the black community to get behind a idea of theirs.
J.C.Watts comes to mind and he wants a all black news channel but, don't you need the support of the black community first?
"Black conservatives, with their politics of self-abuse, have managed to obtain access to the halls of power
Wow. Who knew masturbation could lead to the halls of Power?
I'm actually looking forward to JC Watss new cable channel. If the targeted audience is black people, then he will have more than the conservative point of view. It certainly can't be any worse than what we have now (nothing) and at least we know it won't feature naked women and black men calling each other the n-word while digging in their crotch. Yeeeecccchhhh.
Besides, JC Watts doesn't bother me as much as Sowell, Steele, and Elders.
Thanks Rikyrah--will definitely keep an eye out!
Christopher you wrote a mouthful: "moralistic, judgmental, autocratic, caustic, holier-than-thou."
My uncle is the first black conservative I ever knew--he is what I consider a true conservative. The current crop of folks claiming conservatism are not truly conservative at least not in the Goldwater sense.
With that said I think many in the black community have a negative reaction to self-described conservative blacks b/c
1) they seem to have a condescending, arrogant tone and people don't like being talked down to
2) their disdain is targeted toward poor, uneducated blacks living in distressed communities--basically those who are least likely to push back
3)they lack intellectual integrity especially in their unequal treatment of the pathologies of some in the dominant culture compared to the regular discussion of black cultural pathologies
4) they don't offer any solutions or precribe any rememdies
The suspicion that some blacks have toward the Repubs is perpetuated by the fact that they don't make an effort to reach out to those voters compared to say Hispanics which Bush courted heavily.
Elder, Sowell - just so full of self-hate....really a shame.
"J.C.Watts comes to mind and he wants a all black news channel but, don't you need the support of the black community first?"
Not necessarily. If it turns out to be a 24/7 video version of a Shelby Steele book, it might be quite successful without the support of the majority of black news consumers.
As to your sidebar, any black person who seriously think's the word is "cloonie" has either been brainwashed or sheltered. What kind of Negro doesn't know all of the racials slurs on GP? It's embarassing/sad.
It seems that they describe the pathology that whites ascribe to "trailer trash", "crackers", or "hillbillies". Well, when you volunteer to be poor and uneducated...life will eat you. Being cool is only useful for entertainers and high school students.
Mold
Mold, you know nothing. Have you ever heard of white Priviledge? The fact that blacks have 10 PERCENT of the wealth of whites per capita?
With shekels like that, you got problems. Your 'social mobility' points up, theirs down. Racism realized, ages after the racist policies were discontinued. FHA loans, Homestead Act. For Whites Only, as codified in law and executive doctrine.
Y'all should go see what Dr. David Brin had to say about Ben Stein and his whole 'the scientists caused the Holocaust' shtick.
The fools, the self-haters, the deluded 'money makes me better' live in every liberal community. after a while, you don't give 'em the time of day.
According to what I read, the JC Watts channel is to feature news about the black community. I know for a fact that most white people will not be interested so that the targeted audience will be mostly black and brown folks. Although, if Barack wins, perhaps a station like that would have much wider appeal.
I'm still waiting for Comcast to carry the English version of Al Jazeera. In the meantime, you have to read it online. And while I'm rambling, if you want some interesting insight into what is going on in Israel and how they view the upcomong US presedential elections, read Haaretz online. It is the more progressive Israeli newspaper, which is sometimes hard to tell, but you will get more honest and straight forward reporting on Israel there than in anything in the US. I've seen harsher commentary in Haaretz on issues like the bombing of Lebanon than anything you will see here.
Field Brotha!!
Don't agree here. See, here's the deal. There's a big difference between "conservatives" and "Republicans". Conservatives hold to a particular philosophy where Republicans are loyal only to party, regardless of what they stand for.
I am a conservative. I am black. Believe it or not, I'm actually a Muslim, born and raised. My father was in the Nation before he changed to Orthodox Islam.
If you look at the black leaders throughout American history, most of them were political conservatives. I can go issue-by-issue if you'd like. Heck, back in the day it WAS the gov't that was creating most of the issues for the black community.
I just believe that we don't need to rely on others, especially the government to settle our issues for us. We need to build our own families, communities and strive for personal responsibility.
I define the difference between conservatives and liberals by how much government is involved in your daily life. To the extreme left is communism where gov't controls everything. To the extreme right is anarchy, when there is no gov't at all.
That being said. I am now a "former" Republican. I've always felt that Bush was a liberal as with most Republicans now-a-days.
BTW, I don't classify any of those black Republicans you mentioned as conservatives. All the folks there are tap-dancing, lawn jockeys that will say/do anything to gain acceptance within the Republican Party. They are not loyal to ideas or principle. They're loyal to party; regardless of what they stand for.
There are more "former" black Republicans out there. We just aren't willing to prostitute ourselves to get a pat on the back.
You have a conservative side, Field, but it's not political. It's about how you don't make excuses for criminal behavior no matter where you see it, in government, corporate offices, or on the street. I don't know why these right wingers think they have a monopoly on "moral values."
~Apologies in advance that this is so long.~
heartsandflowers, basketcase, zach, field, jon:
I agree with heartsandflowers on questioning Tim Wise. And from another angle than basketcase, I also question whether the test should be whether he believes what he says.
My own concerns are more about how he (and any other like him) actually function -- and less about what is inside of him.
I see him and his supporters claiming that he is against white supremacy, yet he relies on the existence of white supremacy to make his living and do his work (specifically: the fact that many white people refuse to do the basic thing of relating to Black people and other people of color with respect like you would treat an actual legitimate human being).
jon wrote: I heard Tim Wise speak here in California. He pointed out that it was unfortunate but true that he could make white people listen to things that they would dismiss if they heard them from a Black person.
Wise BENEFITS -- financially and in terms of status etc -- from this dynamic. He benefits from it. This is true. This part of the situation goes very deep IMO and needs really rigorous accountability. Because he is imperfect and human like everyone else. Because he is structurally and culturally invested in the dynamic that supports him continuing. Because in this role, he is not automatically trustworthy -- no white person in this role could be. No matter how well-meaning he may or may not be, this is a white person who directly and consistently benefits from a dynamic of white supremacy.
To me this does not mean he is a bad person or is doing some celestial Wrong. To me it means that he occupies a very very risky and intrinsically untrustworthy role. Because of what it relies on.
And when someone is in such a role, I look for indications about how this person keeps humself and is kept in check by others in terms of accountability. And by this I don't mean find some people of color who agree with what he is doing, have them be the checkpoints, and say that's accountability (which from what I can tell is what Tim Wise does).
I mean more rigorous than that in some way. So far I don't see evidence of any such accountability. I have actually asked him for information about this directly and he seriously evaded the question.
And IMO it's not just -- or even primarily -- about him. It's about how this system is set up and how someone in his role can actually function in ways that aren't simply "anti-racist."
Postscript: And on this subject, for some reason it took me two days to realize this little dynamic, I'm still thinking about it:
In the previous entry (and posted at JJP), there is an essay from Wise calling out white women. In terms of effective strategy this approach makes no sense to me. Seems to me that the white women he's supposedly speaking to are coming from a white feminist/white women focus on sexism against white women as primary oppression. It seems to me that people in that situation are not particularly likely to listen to a white man call them out and accept his critique.
A true "white people only listen to other white people" strategy for this would be for him to find and promote a white woman saying what he said. Not that I agree that it would necessarily be best to enable that dynamic, but if that's what someone is into, that would make more sense in this particular situation.
But that is not what Wise did. So my questions are -- who was he really speaking to with that piece? Who was/is his real audience? And why? I have some vague musings on this but this comment is long enough and I am still thinking about it anyway.
Again, apologies that this comment is so freaking long!
Hey Field good post. Good to call out these opportunists from time to time. But Tim Wise is not the first person to do so, many other black commentators including myself have called these guys out. It takes on a different perspective when a white guy calls them out sometimes.Folks who disagree with him will try to use his color to distract from the truth that he is saying. But if you have a revolutionary attitude it doesn't matter what color you are because you can call out those who support the master and against the interests of the slave no matter what color they are.
Blacks aren't typically conservative because being conservative means you have something to conserve in this country. So in reality that applies to only a handful of Blacks in this country.
I disagree with the writer above (a2dak) and his theory about most black political leaders being conservative. I would like to know what he meant by most. It may be more true that the black community has been socially conservative. And it may be true that our community has been politically conservative from slavery up until the Civil Rights movement because we were just plain scared. Yes when you look at our history you notice that too often we found a way to live with the terror and humiliation that defined our daily existence.
And nowadays many still pretend or hold out hope that this system will do right by everday folks and people of color. And this hope flies in the face of the historical evidence and - hell the daily evidence.Malcolm said once that a chicken cannot produce a duck egg. This system without any real change will never produce justice,liberty and equality for the teeming masses and definitely doesnt appear capable of it in its treatment of its people of color.
My brother has his facts askew, it was radical leaders that spurred us to action, Nat Turner, Denmark Plessey (lets get free ya'll by any means necessary) Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, Frederich Douglass,Garvey, DuBois, Bishop Henry McNeal Turner, Mary McCleod Bethune,Paul Robeson, Malcolm, Martin, Toure,Fannie Lou Hamer. These folks were not conservatives.
Keep it up brother Field!
All I know is, Barry better stop emailing this white blonde Marilyn Monroe type, Scarlett Johannson, or these Repubs will make mince meat of him.
Leave that woman alone! Stop emailing this bitch, I ain't hating on you and I know brothers have a weakness for white women, but this is not a good look with 5 months to go.
Did you watch Jay Leno? Even he commented on it. It's about appearances man. Go to politico.com. Let's get this thing to the end, white women gonna be whistling dixie and they gonna do an Emmett Till. Michelle, go get your man!
B.H.
Again, using my description above defining liberal vs. conservative by the size/influence of gov't, I'd say most of those folks you mention were. I'm talking about adherence to the Constitution and equal application thereof.
Those guys were very skeptical of gov't and focused most of their anger/fury towards it because they weren't following the constitutional mandates. Those folks made the gov't enforce the laws equally. They didn't have to write new laws for us.
Yeah, individual citizens gave us problems. But, the gov't wrote illegal laws and/or applied them differently for us.
It took constitutional confirmation to rid our country of these practices.
I can probably name a couple constitutional errors that have been created over the years. But, overall it has proven its ability to remedy even the worse wrongs.
Back in the day, it was the government that created the most problems for the black community. They wouldn't enforce the laws and/or decided that they didn't apply to us. The size of government was a huge barrior to progress.
Again, if you listen to the Republicans today, they are all blasting the Supreme Court decision on Guantanamo. Again, they fighting against constitutional protections. That decision reiterates my point. Bush and today's GOP are far from "conservative".
You will be a Conservative too, when you start paying taxes and get sick of the crime and corruption in Philadelphia and Nationwide. When will you get sick of the destruction of the Black American Family thanks to Democrat Policies? The examples are in front of you in American Cities nation wide however you and the rest of you bloggers are like "thank you sir, may I have another" from the DNC and friends. When will you face the fact that America will never be a Socialist Republic no matter this is how you people run your cities. Why do Republicans live in the suburbs, because these are people who works hard and wants to see the fruits of the labor. They want to see a government that works than run by ole political machines (that gave Hillary Pennsylvania) however this is OK to you? Deep down FN, you want to destroy American from with in via open borders and mold this nation into a monument of punishment for America past sins. In your heart you want to see this great nation cut down because its greatness was built with blood. Irony about you and open borders, blacks like you will reap what you sow when today Immigrants (both illegal and legal) will achieve in this nation while Blacks are still sucking up to the udder of the donkey of Democrat Party when its leaders are now Asians and Hispanics, just pat yourself on the back. I dream someday, I can come to Philly, run for mayor as a Republican and turn that into a great city like New York City as a black conservative like Rudy did in his tenure of New York City's mayor. Cut wasteful spending, get tough on crime (and not like in Washington DC with there apartheid-esk policing in a very Democratic City run by blacks, yes you cant blame a Republican on that one). Can you tell a kid on the street in Northeast Philly "you sale drugs, you go to jail" with a straight face for a really long time! Improve on city schools buy not waisting more money but asking "what the fuck are we teaching these kids" do they know that America is a great nation? Do kids know that its up to them to achieved in this nation and its not up the Government to save you ass? You have your hand out going "gimmie gimmie gimme" for what? Being a conservative is hard and being black in America is already hard however I wont get a set at the table because I have a (R) next to my name however I demand attention. You are willing to destroy someone like Lynn Swann because he is a Republican however deal with the incompetence of Mayor Nutter because he is a (D) now what sense is that? Honestly FN, you had it your way and you failed. I like Philly as a city however I love the central of Pennsylvania even more. You and others can learn from your fellow Pennsylvanians who are bitter clinging to God and Guns. You will grow older and either become a communists or a Republican.
Jibreel Riley
I am the GOP future
a2Dak, thanks for engaging my brother. I always appreciate a real conservative point of view, especially coming from the black side. Notice I said a REAL conservative.
And you are right. Being a republican does not automatically make one a conservative and visa versa. Although I do believe that if you are conservative, you will vote as a republican before you do as a democrat 99% of the time.
And I agree with melaneous, blacks have been socially but not fiscally conservative. We have never had real wealth to conserve in this country. If you have wealth that was passed down, or accumulated you tend to want to conserve it. If you never really had real wealth, you tend to support a process of redistribution where the wealth can go to supoprt the masses. It's rare that you find someone with real wealth who would support a very liberal fiscal ideology, because that would call for a personal sacrifice.
Still, as bob said, I probably have more in common with so called social conservatives than you might think. Moral values and doing the right thing should have nothing to do with your politics.
Michelle, your comments weren't too long, they weren't long enough. You made some great points. But I think Wise has his heart in the right place. And couldn't what you said about him be applied to Rev. Inc. as well? Many of us by virtue of our positions in life benefit from society's ills. I couldn't make the living I do if it wasn't for criminals and people making poor choices in life. But you are right, it's a complicated issue.
Anon. 8:54PM, you are killing me. LOL at the "O" man sending the e-mails to the blond bombshell. Watch it "O" man....Oh Lawd I don't even want to get started down this road. But there is a post in this somehwere :)
Seriously, he does need to be careful. I heard a sports talk radio host here in Philly do a whole show on that shit.
"You will be a Conservative too, when you start paying taxes and get sick of the crime and corruption in Philadelphia and Nationwide."
jibreel, I probably pay more in taxes than you make in a year. So spare me your I have more than you faux republican bullshit. Just because I think like a field Negro don't ever get it twisted.
"I dream someday, I can come to Philly, run for mayor as a Republican and turn that into a great city like New York City as a black conservative like Rudy did in his tenure of New York City's mayor."
I hope you have a large family here in Philly, because they would be the only ones voting for you :)
Glad to be engaged Field Brotha.
But, see check it. The only reason we didn't acquire the wealth and achieve material possessions is because of the illegal and unfair practices in hiring, promoting, lending and other opportunities afforded to whites. It's not like we couldn't do it to equal levels. In fact.....not going there.
Again, this illegality has been constitutionally remedied by a great deal. The courts say you must be fair. Of course things aren't perfect. But, you get my drift.
Not sure if I'd agree that your 99% thought is accurate now-a-days. About 16-18% of Republicans didn't vote for McCain even after he locked up the nomination. I know several conservatives who aren't pleased in the least with today's Republicans.
Hi Field, thanks for letting me know it wasn't too long. And as it turns out, I have even *more* to say.
I'm ok with raising the more general questions for everyone surviving in this system. I really do agree, many have to struggle with complicity in specific ways and it's good to get rigorous and honest IMO.
In fact my first email conversation with Wise got onto this exact point and on his lead, I was looking at my own complicity with white supremacy in my own life, and I asked him if he wanted assistance in looking at his.
But neither that conversation, nor one several years later, yielded anything but silence, evasion or defensiveness from him when I asked him to critically scrutinize and question how his own practice might function to support/promote white supremacy even as he appears to be fighting it (I actually posted something public about these discussions a few months ago, it's ) here
But if broadening the question functions in any way to take the scrutiny OFF of Tim Wise in a conversation jumping off of something he has written or done ... then I am not okay with it. The man is not exempt. Instead, IMO he is very much in need of public scrutiny and transparent checking because of the specifics of what he is claiming to do and how he does it.
In my perspective the role he occupies has particular and specific responsibilities for certain kinds of accountability and scrutiny as a white public figure who makes a living off of a dynamic of white supremacy but claims to be acting against that system with his speeches and writing. His is a public role and the scrutiny needs to be public IMO.
And yes, we all have our own specific and particular responsibilities about complicity in our own lives, to ask the really hard questions, to try as hard as we can to not deceive ourselves or each other about what we are actually doing and even the ugly parts of it. The question is do we shirk these responsibilities or not. And from what I myself personally have seen, he is shirking and people sometimes seem to help him do that.
And I feel like all this says something about larger issues beyond Mr. Wise, these dynamics around him and responses to him, but I don't yet get exactly what. It feels very off to me, though.
(and also I just wish sometimes that I could go about my business reading blogs I love to read these days, without running into "Look How Great is This Tim Wise" at random moments, so I wouldn't have to decide if when or how to respond when I see this, but that's me being totally selfish and self-centered)
Anyway, there may be more to the story of harsh and critical accountability and checking about his work, for sure. And if there is I would love to know about it -- really and truly I would. Because I have asked him directly for specific information about this, and he has not provided it.
And because I do in fact sense evasion and deception around what he is doing, and I would feel much better about all of it (how I feel: again me being selfish abd self-centered) if I knew there was some serious real harsh accountability and scrutiny, to deal with the very functionally risky role he is occupying.
Dude!
Welcome, a2dak! We've got a real conservative in you, which pleases my heart greatly.
Problem is, you are the type I'd wager would support Advanced Liberalism (keep the market free so that the entrepreneur can compete against the big guy).
So, I'm going to toss you a link to my favorite Republican (voted for Paul in the primary). He'll give you a good talking to about the perils of talking French (that's using that old hoary left/right axis).
http://www.davidbrin.com/realculturewar1.html
Anyone else, you'll like that link too, I'd wager.
We can't have an America without good conservative values (like keeping ANWR safe until we need to drill it!).
" Riley
I am the GOP future"
After reading your comment, all I can say is...damn, I hope so,
I'm black and decidedly right of center. But these folks who call themselves black conservatives aren't conservative, they're not particularly smart and they just say stuff that keeps them employed and eating well. It's frustrating at best, foolhardy at worst and doesn't really get to the core of the plight they're supposedly trying to "solve." I'm not sure where putting the so-called ills of black depravity on full blast to entire crowds of melanin intolerant folks really solves anything, but it'll make them clap for you and maybe you get to be on TV and get called "bright and intelligent" and maybe get compared to Tiger Woods or Colin Powell or something.
All it takes is understanding history well enough to know that you can be simultaneously FOR the improvement of your own folks, while opting not to sell them down the river to anyone who will listen.
Not because of some faux solidarity either, but simply because it doesn't accomplish anything and in some ways, makes their plight WORSE.
To whom much is given, much is required.
You know something. The other day my older brother said Barack Obama is a conservative. And when he explained why (talking about taking responsibililty, christian talk, everyone doing what they need to do to make the country work, sacrifices) I have to say there is validity in his statement and I do agree with him -- Obama is conservative. That is why there are Obamaclans (republican Obama supporters) and evangelicals talking about supporting him. But the reason why I did not take notice to that is because. I always saw conservatives as anti black community hustlers and lawn jockeys for white racist and racist institutions.
When I think about it, there is a long tradition of Black conservative. Many Blacks are social and moral/social conservatives mainly out of political necessity (discrimination, racism etc.) It comes from the long held view that only we can save ourselves. Historically Black conservatives were one of the most radicals of the Black political activists We have were deeply conservative Marcus Garvey (as oppose to more liberal WEB Dubois, the Honorable Elijah Muhammed and Malcolm X (as oppose to the more liberal Martin Luther King) and Booker T Washington (as oppose to WEB Dubois. Tony Brown of the Tony Brown Journal fame is also a conservative.
Yes political thought is very diverse in the various Black communities. But we have to distinguish what is authentically from our communities and what is financed and promoted by racists to justify and propegate racism.
I think that what we call conservatives are actually good ol' Uncle Toms. And instead of calling them conservatives -or republicans for that matter- call them for what they really are --Toms
[quote]"Black conservatives, with their politics of self-abuse, have managed to obtain access to the halls of power – at the expense of respect from within the black community.[/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Field-Negro:
Can I set this up for you?
You (and my friend Kellybelle who is cute) attempt to set up the strawman about the must loathed "Black Conservative" with respect to the Black community.
On the one hand being "loathed" also means that THE OTHER GUY has his finger prints all over the controls of the community.
Also you must understand - Black Conservatives are "Popularly Loathed" in the context of a Black community who popularly supports an opposing ideology that has:
* Failed to dramatically improve our people's education - despite running the schools
* Failed to keep our streets safe despite controlling the police from the mayors office. Even you are keeping a murder count in Philly. I guess these are Black Republicans doing the killing in your warped mind.
* Failed to provide adequate jobs for the people in the community. Interestingly enough that while Al Gore got cheers for standing in a Detroit arena and saying that Bush presided over job losses in Michigan he EMBRACED the Democratic governor who was in power during this time and said nothing of the Democratic mayor who also was in power but not present due to his current circumstances. If you and Gore were honest you would note that Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Kentucky and Texas have seen net NEW auto manufacturing jobs as the high priced, union dominated northern Rust Belt states have lost. Bush presided over this net increase as well. No Democrat will mention this.
So the question is IN WHAT CONTEXT is the Black Conservative scorned? By a people who HAVE DELIVERED per the ideology that they find POPULAR? Of course not.
As our society increasingly self-segregates - it will be made more clear that the antics of the Black Quasi-Socialist Progressive-Fundamentalist Racism Chaser is NOT a community BUILDER. It is one of dependency and victimization.
When a REFORM MOVEMENT takes over the Black community in which we recommit to our GOALS and our VALUES that we will need to be a strong people - it is not LIBERALISM that will be adopted in an increasing basis.
When you are an oppressed people in an intolerant society - liberalism is a worthy tool to get the outside people to loosen up.
When you HAVE YOUR OWN PEOPLE IN POWER and they commit to obtaining a certain measure of order and discipline - you had better have a conservative basis from which to operate upon.
An Obama presidency would force this issue and show the void in your ideology more than it would prove anything against the Black Conservative.
And by the way - there is NO FORCE more destructive to the Black community today than the THUG KNEEGROW. He is the one attacking us, killing us, stealing from us.
You blame the Black Conservative because despite being few in numbers - you still get off on finding a common enemy to lump your attacks upon.
It must feel good to be so misdirected in your attacks.
[quote]I detest Larry Elder.
He's the Black male version of Laura Schlessinger: moralistic, judgmental, autocratic, caustic, holier-than-thou.[/quote]
Moralistic
Judgmental
Autocratic
Caustic
Holier-Than-Thou
No doubt Christoper. I can see why all of these attributes are a threat to you and what you want to make this society into.
If there ever was a cultural and social realignment you would have to change - wouldn't you?
You are no less judgmental than Elder - you just have a different set of items on your enforcement list.
Hey Field-Negro - did you fully vet this Tim Wise guy before you jumped on his jock?
Get this - on his YouTube video he states that IF poor Whites during slavery time had realized their commonality with enslaved Blacks and RESISTED uniting with the wealthy White folks who they only shared the same color with THEY would have gained all of the wealth together and taken control of the country.
Do you see the problem with this man Field-Negro? He is all about the ABSTRACTIONALISM of "WHAT THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE" than he is about reality.
It gets worse Field Negro - fast forward to To-Damned-Day. This same character who has his "Negro credentials" from being taken in by the folks at Fisk University - an HBCU - points to the modern day New Orleans. The poor White folks who live in a town across the channel from New Orleans once again chose to unite by RACE than by ECONOMIC STATUS. They should have welcomed the poor Blacks as brothers united and formed a protest against the GOVERNMENT for failing to protect them with the levees.
Is any of this sinking into you Field-Negro, others? Even when the "Shoulda woulda coulda" of yesterday is brought forth to to-damned-day this "Vanilla Ice" in lecture form still does not have ideas that model the real world. The fact is that RACE is a core concept that fractionalizes us - more than income. You can't just wish that away.
Then he compared Lee Iaccoa's decision to release the Ford Pinto despite its known problems with the fuel tank as CRIMINAL VIOLENCE in the same way that a Blood or a Cryp might do on the streets with an AK47. He lost me on that one. (I am sure that you were cheerleading though)
I am proud of both Dr. Walter Williams (a Philly homeboy) and Dr. Thomas Sowell. Both of their works are read and studied among students of economics.
Keep bringing people like Tim Wise to my attention though. The more I listen to them the more my own views are fortified.
Thank you Field Negro.
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