Monday, November 10, 2008

Proposition Hate.


It wasn't supposed to be this way. I am from Jamaica, one of the most homophobic places on the planet, and my daddy was a preacher, so don't ask me how I got to this place, and developed this mindset. A mindset that says in spite of the fact that I don't equate the LGBT movement with the civil rights movement; it doesn't mean that I don't see the nobility of their cause, or the fundamental unfairness of those who would oppose it. I can understand how someone who is Gay could feel as strong as they do about their civil rights as citizens. It is, after all, their struggle and their humanity that is being questioned.


So let's talk about Proposition 8 out in California for a minute: This ballot proposition which would amend the California state Constitution and make it illegal for two people of the same sex to get married. To be more specific, the language says that it's purpose is "to eliminate rights of same sex couples to marry." Interesting. To "eliminate" the right of two adult individuals to marry each other. Two adult individuals! And here is the kicker: this proposed ballot amendment did get a yes vote; so now it is alright to eliminate the rights of same sex couples in California to get married.

Now here is the irony: This little ballot initiative could not have won a YES vote without the overwhelming support of the African American community out in Cali. Seems the pim....I mean the preachers told their congregations in no uncertain terms to vote YES for this amendment, or California would become a modern day Sodom & Gomorrah. But this one we wouldn't destroy with fire and brimstone, this one we would destroy with the power of the vote. Nope, can't have those Gay sinners defiling our precious institutions, that's the preacher's job.


[Non monolithic alert!] But black folks, how soon you forget. Here is the other bit of irony: the very LDS church you teamed up with to get this amendment passed didn't even consider your black asses good enough to be priests in their own church just a few short years ago. Now here you are teaming up with them to support bigotry and discrimination. Sorry family, I will have to part with you on this one. I don't care how many of you came out and pushed YES for proposition 8, that shit was just wrong. And I know that there are certain complexities within the LGBT community (such as the treatment of LGBT minorities by whites in that group), which needs to be addressed ( see "dark moon's" comments about this issue on the thread a couple of posts back), but that's for another time. The crap that is going on now is all that I am concerned with.

Over seventeen million dollars? Wow! Bigotry is sure getting expensive these days. Whatever happened to the days when you could just cut up some sheets, hook up a make shit cross and just burn the motherfucker? I guess times have changed. But field, the people voted for it, what's your problem, don't you believe in democracy? From the early 1600's to 1865 A-merry-cans universally accepted slavery, but that didn't make it right. Oh come on field are you equating slavery to two men or women not being able to marry each other? They can still have civil unions, why do they have to call it marriage? I guess, and we can all still drink the same water, what's wrong with separate drinking fountains?



201 comments:

1 – 200 of 201   Newer›   Newest»
classical one said...

Field,

Don't blame black folks, blame religion. Black Christian Churches preach the same thing white churches do namely, homosexuality as an abomination before God, as in Leviticus 18:22. Islam has the same opinion of homosexuality and most other major relgions do as well.

How many aetheists do you think walked to support prop 8 and give their money as the LDS Church did? Hate can make strange bedfellows.

Anonymous said...

Bravo, field. You nailed it.

C. Baptiste-Williams said...

This entire debate brings up two things that annoy the shit out of me:

1. I am so tired of people quoting and living by certain scriptures of the Bible. They never want to quote the same verses in Leviticus that speak of wearing clothing of two different fabrics and not to eat shellfish.

2. And this great country was founded on the seperation of Church and State. And we have the freedoms to worship and believe in whatever we want... so if your church doesn't believe in marrying gays.. DONT MARRY ONE but don't stop someone else for believing in what they do.

JP said...

Personally the I think the government should get out of the marriage business. Give every one civil unions(heterosexual and homosexual) and let the preachers decide who is married. The government joins civilis the latin word meaning of or relating to the state or its citizenry (joint taxes, decision making rights, etc.). The church/family joins us marries us in what ever sense your church, temple, mosque, etc decides is appropriate.

Comrade PhysioProf said...

What JP said, Comrade PhysioProf said yesterday:

http://physioprof.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/marriage-equality/

bean twn chica said...

I think gay people were too bold when they got the right to marry in Cali. they should have been more low key; they should have let a few years pass before televising famous marriages (Ellen and Portia),showing kids attending the marriage of their teacher, and other audacious showings.


I have never discriminated against any gay people, never turned away in disgust or fear. but I have true fear of the Creator and would not participate in the affirmation of gay marriage. Please stop painting those who would vote for Prop 8 as some ignorant, racist. One day I will have to stand up at Judgment Day, I will be alone. I believe in the Old Testament and the Quaran and try to closely follow all the laws. I believe that the residents of the Earth were destroyed in a great flood and a curse was put upon Ham for the sin of homosexuality. I know that gay people were put on
Earth for a reason, but I have ultimate fear of the Creator and no one but me has to stand up for my sins on my Judgment Day. Please stop imposing your beliefs on me, stop the shaming, stop the guilt. I will not treat others with racism but I will not let you shame me into (voting for) something that has been clearly stated is a sin. You can equate it with civil rights, you can flower the argument all you want. I will not be shamed into disavowing Allah's laws.

I never understand the argument, if the speed limit is posted for 65 mph and I drive 75mph I am breaking the law and will get fined. But when it comes to the Creator's laws we can pick and choose and he will give us a pass even when we break them, huh? So I have to follow Man's law but I can ignore the Creator of the Earth, wind, universe, animals, all life because I know better?

Jody said...

Thank you Field for this post... you are my brother, my comrade, my ally.

In addition to Prop 8 in California, (and in Arizona),Georgia passed a law to prevent gays from adopting..... Great "family values" those haters are promoting. Does this mean that the biological children of gay people are next in line to be taken?

Cowart said...

Great post. Very well written and on point.

Christopher said...

bean twn chica,

Living in a nation that enshrines the separation of church and state must be a real pain in the ass for you.

So must it be that carbon dating pre-dates the radical, rightwing religious belief that all life began on earth 6,000 years ago and man and dinosaurs co-existed (hello Sarah Palin.)

But there are places in the world where you might be more comfortable. Iran and Afghanistan come to mind. In Iran, gay men are regularly stoned to death and hanged. Such events might lift your spirits after a hard week at work.

In fact, bean twn chica, I'll be happy to buy you a O/W ticket to Tehran to begin a new life in theocracy nation filled with religious extremists like yourself.

Just let me know when you want to depart.

Kat said...

The level of religiousity, conservatism, age and level of education seemed to be the determining factor in who voted yes or no regardless of race.
This so-called overwhelming support from the AA community for Yes vote is grossly inaccurate.

Anonymous said...

I think Bean twn Chica got it wrong. If I go 75 in a 65 mph zone, she wont get a ticket, so if i marry someone of the same sex, I may be committing a sin in her eyes, but she isnt. I appreciate her fear of the creator, but I have a creator that is NOT to be feared but loved and if I upset him/her that's my issue not hers.

Jody said...

bean twn.... your position is really the crux of why there should only be civil unions that confer legal status.... the church/snyagogue/mosque/temple should not be given the legal authority. Then, people with different beliefs could marry people in a religious ceramony... or not. Unitarians, Quakers, and reformed Jews perform same sex marriages now. Catholics won't but they also won't perform marriages of for other reasons as well.

Anonymous said...

Are you proposing that the 9th throw this out or what? I'd be against that.

szpork

Christopher said...

Field,

We're on a very slippery slope with the Mormons and Prop 8.

The question many people are asking is, "Is the LDS Church a religion or a political action committee?"

If it's the former, they should not be influencing legislation. If it's the latter, they should be paying income tax on their billions and billions of dollars of assets -- particularly, their global real estate assets in places like Manhattan, London, and Tokyo.

An effort is now underway to focus the IRS on the Mormons. There is also an effort to organize a boycott of Utah. Their winter ski industry brings in $6 billion a year to the state. There are film festivals and conventions and all could be jeopardized for what the Mormon bigots did in California.

I think Utah and the Mormons will pay a very high price for their activism.

JP said...

BTW a natural law is something nature determines and science discovers. The California supreme court didn't say that gravity should cease to exist and my laptop should flow to the sky. I suppose homosexuality violates a biblical law, but that's not the government's job to enforce those. You don't have to like homosexuality to decide that it's none of your fucking business what grown men and women do with there bodies. BTW, the bible has some pretty heavy prohibitions about premarital sex too, but judging by the 50%+ of kids that are now born to unmarried couples in the black community and a rising % in the general population it doesn't seem to matter too much. You can't demonize the gays and pound the bible and fuck the dude/gal you just met at bar last night. That's hypocrisy.

glory said...

Field, I feel obligated to drop these two links - each one addresses the scapegoating of black folks for the passing of Prop 8.

http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/stop-scapegoating-black-folk-on-proposition-8-updated/#more-4586

http://myleftwing.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=9874480084675B3B3303E7B80DE72B9D?diaryId=23580

Beyond that I have little comment. I think reasonable people already know that gay folks need to be left the hell alone.

Jennifer said...

I'm proposing that all these religious institutions which put their time and money into pushing this legislation lose their non-profit status. The following is a link which simplifies filing a complaint with the IRS, although it's focused on the LDS church, it offers a template.

http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/how-to-file-an-irs-501c3-complaint/

field negro said...

bean twn chica, I respect your beliefs. But I ask you to respect my non beliefs as well.

I cannot co-sign with bigotry, no matter what form it takes, or who is doing it. That includes bigotry against religious people as well.
Sadly, it seems like the religious folks are always the ones doing the discriminating.


kat, educate me.

"I'm proposing that all these religious institutions which put their time and money into pushing this legislation lose their non-profit status."

Jennifer, I agree. I really fear for the "Establishment Clause" in this country. :(

Kit (Keep It Trill) said...

Field, glad you jumped on this topic. You and others will love my post on this. I included some real life examples of crap that goes wrong. Come by when you get a chance.

When The Yes We Can Crowd Said No You Can't

404Kim said...

"Personally the I think the government should get out of the marriage business."

Interesting. This is something I never really thought of before tonight. Maybe there could be some sort of compromise - judges/the courts provide and honor civil unions between two people, regardless of sex and allow church's to provide and honor marriage between a man and woman.

I understand gays are in search of certain "civil" rights when it comes to their partners, but none of these rights are granted by the church. So if the gov't (which is supposed to be separate from the church anyway) wants to offer civil unions thereby granting them these rights, who am I to say that's right or wrong?

I have a real problem with people imposing their views on me and I try my best not to impose mine on others. While I think people should be free to love and live how they please, I don't think I totally agree with same sex marriage as it applies to God and religion.

Therefore, if I lived in California - I would have skipped on voting on Prop 8.

Also, I think selecting Yes for No could have confused some voters...

hennasplace said...

I have a real problem with people who attempt to suppress the rights of others for some person reason. No one has the right how to others how to live. Just think about this for a moment, we are co-signing for one group to have dominion over the other. Personally, I think the people who brought forth Prop 8 are control freaks, it's not about religion, but in fact, trying to curb whatever moral imperfections they have within themselves. I guarantee you this that very people who pushed Prop 8 so hard are probably the biggest sinners themselves. They are like that ex-smoker who have been smoking for years, but now cannot stand the smell of smoke because he or she no longer can smoke. They want to punish current smokers by passing laws no-smoking bans for all restaurants. Something Mayor Bloomberg did a few years by having a no smoking ban passed at restaurants. I do not like smoking because I have asthma, but I wouldn't want a law to pass telling what a restaurant owner what he or she can do with her establishment because he or she will do it themselves if enough customers complain.

My grandmother always told me that you cannot help how you love. And for the those individuals who believe the sanctity of marriage, explain to me why heterosexual couples cannot get marriage right. More than 50% marriages end in divorce. and yet these people have the audacity to tell people how to live. I have this phase to you tell you, mind your business. From a moralistic standpoint, these people do not have the right to say anything when their own lives are disarray. Saddleback Church spent millions of dollars to put Propl 8 on the ballot. This remains me of those kids who spend money on eggs to throw at buses on Halloween as they should kept those eggs to make breakfast the next day. They could have use that money for those church members who may get laid-off from their jobs. I am going to stop writing because this is making me angry.

404Kim said...

"I'm proposing that all these religious institutions which put their time and money into pushing this legislation lose their non-profit status."

I agree - our pastor specifically stated he could NOT speak about the (then) upcoming election for that very reason.

field negro said...

glory, two great sites. I will check them out. kit,I just checked out your site and your take on this as well.

BTW, I love the Presidential seal .:)

JP said...

Hennasplace,
While I agree with most of your post, the smoking ban thing is also an issue of workplace environment. No other job except working in a bar/restaurant before the ban forced employees to be exposed to carcinogens as part of the role without protection.

field negro said...

"I guarantee you this that very people who pushed Prop 8 so hard are probably the biggest sinners themselves."

Or, they have been divorced a time or two.

Kellybelle said...

Nice post. You have a lot of love and Jesus in your heart, whether you'll admit it or not. ;-)

Anonymous said...

Field-

THANK YOU.

I swear, some of stuff you say on this site bugs me (Dead Grandmother Effect? wtf) but then you write a post like this or point out the inhumanity of GOP anti-immigration policies and you remind me that you are, at the end of the day, an honest broker.

Jimbo

B. Walker said...

But wait wait wait! How can Black folks be to blame when they make up less than 10% of California? Whites, Asians and Latinos out number the Blacks so it's just not adding up. Just because they said 70% of Blacks voted yes on Prop 8 doesn't mean Blacks outNUMBERED other races. Do a little bit more research. Read the opinions and responses of those who don't believe it's Blacks fault before making a final decision.

And for my two cents, what happened to a seperation of church and state? The state's job is to equally protect and serve all of its citizens, not determine one group is less than another one. And civil marriages and religious marriages are different (or should be). In some cases, the state will recognize and legitimize a marriage but the married couple's religion will not. Fine. Prop 8 is treating the LGBT community less than and that's not right. We aren't trying to make everyone agree that homosexuality is right, that'll never happen. If you think it's a sin, fine, my mom does too and we still love each other and treat each other like humans. It hurts, but we still love and live our lives. But don't tell others that the state can't recognize an honest and loving relationship and give them the same treatment and rights a straight couple will get. Unfortunately for those that voted yes on Prop 8, not one single same-sex couple is going to stop living together and loving each other because of this bill.

And remember, it is not Black people's fault! It's enough myths out there pushing people over the edge, don't let this be an additional one.

Anonymous said...

oh come on, someone say how they want to overthrow the people's vote. It's not a big issue but you're dancing around the hot to (field especially). I guess there might be legal issues that prevent this but damn, overthrowing a vote seems serious.

szpork

Bob said...

Anyone thinks it just religion, not so.

In Newark NJ, when there are public acts of homobigotry in the black community, acts of violence or discrimination, the community is quick to condemn them. But on any weekend evening, trains to New York are filled with with black gay people, particularly young lesbians. By & large they are an uptight broup until the train is five minutes out of the station. One might think there would be places for gay people to safely & openly socialize in a large culturally sophisticated city like Newark, with so many bars & restaurants & neighborhoods. There are not.

404Kim said...

This is an excerpt from an article someone linked above.
"Case in point the Jordan Rustin Coalition that was started by the gays out of West Hollywood because they felt that Black gays weren’t doing enough to fight for gay marriage."


Ummm, call me simple, but straight blacks aren't doing enough to fight for marriage either. Quite honestly, I think the issues that blacks have with relationships, dating, love, acceptance, fidelity, and monogamy shape our ideas about marriage as a community.

Yes, I know black folks that are married, but I know more that are not and have no desire to be. I live in Atlanta - recently voted the #1 place for Singles (WTF? I need to move!) and coincidently, it's the #1 place black folks - straight, gay, or otherwise- are flocking to.

I'll be 32 next weekend and I've never been to the wedding of a black friend...

D.J. said...

Field I love what you wrote but i have to correct you. Prop 8 did not pass because of the African american community. While it is true that 70% of black folks voted yes to ban same sex marriage If you check the demographics of the state of California you will see that black folks make up a whopping total of 7% of the state. Less than 10% of the state does not make or break your proposition. Sadly this fact is not being reported to in main stream media.
However because they are saying it is the fault of the Blacks people have pulled out their pink KKK robes and are calling black gays Niggers for their people not supporting the gay community.

Faith said...

I wrote a few posts on this as well. The thing is the campaign was not going well for a while and they changed campaign managers less than 2 months before the election. They did no outreach and had minimal if any involvement with LGBTs of color. Also the focus on blaming Blacks and the use of the N word by whites to other gays of color is just wrong. They didn't protest the white, Latino or Asian people that put it over the top. It was as if a vote for Barack was supposed to equate a vote for No on 8 and it just doesn't work that way. Hopefully people will realize they need to work together all the time just not when they want something. I don't think I'd equate the open hostility that occurs in the Carribean where it can be dangerous in fact. I think in CA it's more of ignorant people in communities under duress being easily manipulated - sounds familiar, right? Now I can't say the same for the whites over 65 that overwhelmingly voted Yes. The Mormons spent $20M + along with the Knights of Columbus and a billionaire who's majorly anti-gay. They were thorough in their analysis and attack. Advocates will need to be thorough in theirs.

R.J. said...

I don't buy the "Blacks Are To Blame" argument for the simple reason that every ethnic group voted at least 46% for Yes On H8.

I wrote a couple of posts over the weekend stating that there are some churches in and out of the state that my have violated their 501(c) or (d) tax-exempt status.

Field, if you take House Negro write-in nominations I'd like to dishonor former San Diego Chargers cornerback and serial bigot/pastor Miles MacPherson. His Rock Church donated $25,679.16 to Yes on H8, far and away the biggest in-state church donation.

As for the proposition itself, it's going to be ruled unconstitutional in the courts but I'd still love to see a number of churchs's tax exemptions revoked because of this.

BTW, these same bigots are going to try and overturn gay marriage in Massachusetts in '09.

Seda said...

Field, thanks so much for this post! It feels damn good to have you and all at my back. It means a lot to me.

bean twn chica, I respect your beliefs. All I would ask is that you "judge not," and abstain. In any case, I wish you the best.

Anonymous said...

It is really sad when we begin to compare what blacks went through to same sex people wanting the term/benefits of marriage over their already given right of civil unions. There is NO COMPARISON! Yes, civil rights dictate that all men are created equal but by whose interpretation.

I don't have a problem with people marrying whomever they wish but I do have a problem when that civil right becomes a 'voting' issue.

Civl rights for black people was signed into law in 1964 by President Johnson, it was not put before the people to vote FOR/AGAINST!

It is UNFAIR for me to vote for an issue I may not agree with. I ask those who are gay if they would EVER vote YES for a ballot item that stated being gay is a choice.

I'm sure their answer would be an overwhelming NO! For this is THEIR BELIEF but for some reason it is WRONG (and denial of their civil rights) for someone else to VOTE THEIR CHOICE that marriage is between a man and woman.

So who has to be right at the expense of another being wrong?

I understand people loving whomever they want, and I'm old enough to realize that up to the 70's it was illegal in some states for blacks/whites to marry. But to try and equate struggles of civil rights with what someone believes to be their individual belief or truth and then call it discrimination is crazy and totally unacceptable (IMO)!

This whole issue is going to explode into a new level of hatred because to DEMAND a vote will forever DEMAND that someone gives up what they believe is right for the belief of a right for someone else.

To be honest, I would then have to ask, when does the voting stop - will polygamists want a vote next to legally have multiple partners, will teenagers come forth and want a vote that they can marry at 14 or 12 w/o parental consent - whats next. Some people will say 'don't be ridiculous' but then that is how some people feel about this requests. Everybody is unique - different beliefs/lifestyles/opinions - DNA proves this to be truth!

So I have to ask where will the voting on CIVIL RIGHTS END?

shaka1906 said...

Glory posted the link I was going to before me but yeah field you're trippin. This is nothing but scapegoating black folk. The media has ignored the fact that a majority of Hispanics and Asians also voted Yes for Prop 8. There are far more Hispanics than black folks than in California. If the white people in the Mormon and Catholic Church funded the Yes effort do you think it would have passed? Yes our community is homophobic but there was a whole host of reasons Yes passed and pointing fingers at black people is ignorant and reveals the true colors of a lot of gays and lesbians. I'm in favor of one idea being floated which is just call all legal unions civil unions and leave the marriage business to churches. That way a church can make its own decisions what it wants to do and leave the government out of it.

Black Diaspora said...

bean twn chica said..."I have never discriminated against any gay people, never turned away in disgust or fear. but I have true fear of the Creator and would not participate in the affirmation of gay marriage."

bean, I don't condemn you, nor will I attack you, for your beliefs as I'm sure you possess them in complete sincerity.

And, on top of that, you could have played it safe here, and kept them to yourself.

You didn't. You took a courageous stance to share your point of view.

And generally that's what blogs are all about--others sharing their point of view.

With your statement--"I believe in the Old Testament and the Quaran..."--I'm assuming that you are Muslim.

Let me say at the outset--I have no quarrel with any religious group, despite their various beliefs.

Let me make my central observation, and establish my thesis: Our understanding of God has evolved over the years, and it continues to evolve.

For the Christian, The Old Testament God undergoes a tremendous transformation from that of a jealous, vindictive, and vengeful God, to one of Love, personified in the Life of Jesus, and revealed in The New Testament.

What we have, then, are two testaments of God, one old and one new, the new providing a newer, more up-to-date understanding of God, one obtained from Jesus' clearer, more accurate view of Him--His Character and His Attributes.

Jesus courageously took on the prevalent understanding of his day regarding the nature of God. And he put his life at risk to do so.

I'll give just one example, and let you ferret out the others, if you so wish.

Here's one that he counters:

43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said [of old.] [A Mosaic decree], Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


If you're not Christian, the above passage may, or may not, resonate with you, but it supports my point: our understanding of God has undergone a major readjustment, and continues to do so.

God, even in this day and age, continues to reveal to us His true nature by way of His messengers.

According to one such messenger-- in a Modern Day Newest Testament--Homosexuality is seen as no more a sin than heterosexuality.

And Gay marriages are seen as no more against God's will, than non-Gay marriages.

Bean, homosexuality, and Gay marriages are not a sin. They never were. Moses delivered the message according to his understanding of God, not according to God's diviner nature, one which was revealed in the New Testament through the personhood of Jesus.

And even in the New Testament, human misconceptions of God continued to muddy the waters of divine revelation.

And we're still gaining a larger, clearer understanding of Him today.

Do I think that what I've said here will alter your thinking on this subject?

Probably not. It's not easy to jettison beliefs deeply held, and deeply felt.

I merely hope to offer you, and others here, another perspective on that part of the Bible that condemns homosexuality.

Jennifer said...

Please... you can draw comparisons of the plight of the civil rights movement to the plight of the LBGT community... it doesn't mean you have to equate the two in terms of "who had it harder?"

And at what point did field say blacks were responsible for passing prop. 8? He's just calling out the ones that did for a) teaming up with bigots and b) for trying to legislate morality.

No matter how you try to spin it, there is no reason why people can't harbor a belief but refuse to oblige others to live by it.

Black Diaspora said...

@Anonymous 12:52 AM...

I was able to follow part of what you said.

With all due respect, I'm not really sure what your final position is on the subject at hand.

Would you be willing to try again? I really would like to know where you stand.

nyc/caribbean ragazza said...

In America we still have separation of church and state right?

I do understand why some (not all) religious people have an issues with gay marriage. However this Prop vote does not sit well with me. All this money spent to deny two adults the right to marry.

La ~ Incognita said...

Field, no offense but I just wish some of you would leave the hardship of anti-black racism out of this. Period. Some of us black people find this highly offensive, it's a turn offm and it's getting old. The two will never go together.

For years some people have been tapping in black discrimination as leverage for the gay cause, and now black people are being blamed and called out as hypocrites? For what? Black people do not owe anyone or group anything. That's wrong to me.

And for the rest of you, If you can't find logical reasoning to build up your own argument, then don't blame and throw that f*ck on black people. I dare some of you inclined to go use the holocaust and see what happens. This crap has got to stop. I too wish you can go and marry who you want. It seems there is no line to be drawn, fine. Anything goes.

Ja said...

Field's only speaking to his community. The same community he's been speaking too.

People feel like the Civil Rights movement is a precious jewel that can't be touched. But to me, it's the opposite. It's something that we must touch and look to to fight future barriers. What's the use of history if we don't look at it and build on it? F being offensive, our hands are soft as silk compared to past generations.

To say civil unions are ok but marriage isn't is stupid and hypocritical.

I know who the House Negroes of this past week were.

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

The devil is busy. He comes to kill, steal, and destroy. The bible says, "My people perish for lack of knowledge." How do you fight the enemy if you don't know how the enemy operates? You can't! If you go into a battle against an enemy without proper preparation and learning his tactics,you've have already lost the battle. It's like a boxer who didn't study his opponents style of boxing, went into the ring,and wakes up later after being knockout.

There is one battle I've witnessed all my life. Where a weaker army, pits his opponents against each other so that he can get a strategic advantage. Then he goes in for the kill. Yup, it works every time. Divide and conquer! Find the weak link in the chain and use it to your advantage.
Oh well, I guess one day folks will wake up to the enemies tactics.

Once again, blacks are the scapegoat. Blacks are the cause of everything that ails America. That's what the accusers say. Yup, blacks have been tried in the Kangeroo court of the MSM, and found guilty.

Vida said...

Hi Field,

Your blog was one of my saving graces during the election, and this is my first time commenting.

I am a black, non-gay Christian, and I voted No on Prop 8. I support gay rights, gay marriage and equality for all people. Even though I've always had gay friends and considered myself a liberal, I was a closeted social conservative even as late as two or three years ago. Ashamedly, I didn't support gay rights, but not because I was a mega-church attending, scripture-quoting believer. I think my motivation was ignorance and fear, like, "Oh, teh gayz are going to run the country." Maybe it was a case of the colonized becoming the colonizer, fearful that any other protected class was going to rise up and supplant blacks as the "default" minority in America.

At any rate, I realized that I could not truly say I loved someone if I didn't support his or her human rights. As Alice Walker says, "No person is your friend who demands your silence, or denies your right to grow."

Grata said...

@404Kim,

Those are my exact sentiments.

**********************

"bean twn.... your position is really the crux of why there should only be civil unions that confer legal status.... the church/snyagogue/mosque/temple should not be given the legal authority".


This sounds like a great compromise. Separation of Church and state would mean that everyone gay or straight gets legally married by the state and leave the churches and other religious institutions to decide who gets the religious bond.

My concern with gay marriage as its currently proposed is the legal implications for religious institutions that won't perform those unions and the teaching in schools as the fear mongering went.

Anonymous said...

Black Diaspora said...
@Anonymous 12:52 AM...

I was able to follow part of what you said.

With all due respect, I'm not really sure what your final position is on the subject at hand.

Would you be willing to try again? I really would like to know where you stand.
===================================


Black Diaspora, it is my belief that 'voting' on this issue by the people is not the correct direction for change. Civil rights ensure protection from discrimination based on gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, individual freedom of belief, speech, association, and the press; as well as political participation.

This 'civil' issue should be addressed as an initiative for the civil rights of gays (protection against discrimination because of sexual orientation) to be married (a procedural fairness in law.)

To effectively address this issue maybe a lawsuit (several lawsuits) should be filed to force the high court or Congress to address the traditional principles of what defines a marriage and how that terminology or definition may or may not discriminate against the civil rights of same sex couples to participate.

But to put forth a ballot issue to the people on this 'civil issue' will cause discrimination against the religion and individual freedom of belief of some voters. It is not right!

Just as the civil/voting acts for Blacks were legislative - so should this be otherwise - some ones civil rights MUST be trampled upon in lieu of anothers. (IM0)

Black Diaspora said...

@anon: "To effectively address this issue maybe a lawsuit (several lawsuits) should be filed to force the high court or Congress to address the traditional principles of what defines a marriage...."

Gotcha! Thanks for the clarification.

Anonymous said...

The best thing to do is civil unions for all adults are who legally entitled to have sex, that includes gay people. For those who want the religious element keep that totally seperate but do not make it a legal requirment. A country that believes in separation of church and state should not be in the marriage business. Its a shame this P8 passed and I'm speaking as a fairly conservative Christian.
The Christian communitys' obssession with the gay community is hypocritical - consider all the heterosexual fornicators, adulterers, people living in sin, having babies out of wedlock, according to the bible they are no better than the homosexuals we traditionally condemn. Christians have become spiritual bullies.
Den

field negro said...

"I'll be 32 next weekend and I've never been to the wedding of a black friend..."

404Kim, that was a deep and telling statement. Thank you for sharing.

"But wait wait wait! How can Black folks be to blame when they make up less than 10% of California?"

b.walker, I didn't say black folks are to blame. But, the numbers for
NO on Prop 8 should have been similar to what they were for Barack. It's that simple.

"At any rate, I realized that I could not truly say I loved someone if I didn't support his or her human rights. As Alice Walker says, "No person is your friend who demands your silence, or denies your right to grow."'

Great statement vida. I co-sign with you. You can't go wrong by quoting Alice Walker to support your point of view.

"There is NO COMPARISON! Yes, civil rights dictate that all men are created equal but by whose interpretation."

Huh? anon.12:52AM, could you explain that statement for me?

"To be honest, I would then have to ask, when does the voting stop - will polygamists want a vote next to legally have multiple partners,"

In Fieldafornia, that would be alright, too.

Anonymous said...

Former civil rights leader James L. Bevel was sentenced in Loudoun County yesterday to 15 years in prison for having sex with one of his daughters, despite the 71-year-old's testimony that he recently learned that he has pancreatic cancer and may have only weeks or months to live.

Circuit Court Judge Burke F. McCahill told Bevel that his health and past accomplishments alongside the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. did not change the fact that Bevel abused his position as a leader and father.

"You sexually abused your daughter," McCahill said. "You are the problem. Your daughter is harmed for life."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/15/AR2008101502313.html

Tammy said...

So as an out white Lesbian for near about twenty years now, here's something I have to address:

And I know that there are certain complexities within the LGBT community (such as the treatment of LGBT minorities by whites in that group), which needs to be addressed ( see "dark moon's" comments about this issue on the thread a couple of posts back), but that's for another time.

Bullshit. It was bullshit when Dark Moon posted about it (I went back and read the comment) and it is bullshit now when you repeat it. If there are any issues, they are sporadic and dispersed among small groups, but the biggest issues with the LGBT community 'might' be our issues with that T on the end or, honestly, the trouble between the men and women (if any). Never once have I seen 'treatment' of any minorities in any way except as united for our common cause. There sure as hell are not a lot. The biggest problem of the community is the fact we can't get our collective shit together so it's always one step forward, two steps back. Or choosing between Democrats and Republicans sometimes because, frankly, neither party does much for us.

Now I understand why Dark Moon would want a group to further address issues a minority group has within a minority group (Good Lord) but I've seen various gay orgs in the Washington DC metro area and they are run by groups of individuals just as inept as the next (in some cases). Which is, again, our whole problem.

Finally, I don't equate the Gay Rights movement with the struggle of African Americans either. Nothing along those lines equals the horror of slavery. That said, what is the same (and what I think a lot of people - both black and white don't believe unfortunately for us) is the fact gays didn't wake up one day and decide they want to be attracted to Sally or Joe down the street no more than you woke up one day and decided on the color of your skin. It just was. That is the comparison being made (that it can't be helped so it shouldn't be discriminated against) 9 times out of 10. NOT that the struggle has been the exact same (Though it's not been a cake walk all the time. Ask Matthew Sheppard). So I don't think anyone is trying to 'ride the coattails' of the Civil Rights struggle. Merely trying to make people understand the situation by using something they are familiar with.

And for the person who said we shouldn't be so 'bold' about marriage? Really now? Well, excuse me, while I make MY way to the back of the bus. I seriously don't get annoyed most of the time until I hear those kind of fucked up remarks. I will be just as bold as I want to be in this (somewhat) free country until I no longer can be thank you very much.

Susan said...

I have never forgotten the teaching I heard at a Nation of Islam service in Boston. It has been many years and my memory may not be entirely accurate about what I heard (and I apologize ahead of time about that)but the impact was powerful on me.

The sermon was about the mean-spirited conversations that had been going on in the Black community against homosexuality.

The speaker (and I believe it was Don Muhammad or his son) said in no uncertain terms that no one in the community should be speaking out against gay people from their religious principles. That only when you faced God would His beliefs be truly known. And that discernment was a private one between you and your God.

He said that the point was how we treat each other in love and in the expression of our sexuality. Instead of turning outward, he asked people to turn inward and ask,"how does my sexual behavior measure up to the standards of love?" The conversations we should be having are about how we love within relationships --- do you treat your spouse, your beloved with respect and dignity and the highest principles of love? Or do you objectify, coerce, degrade your beloved in those relationships?

He went on to say that no matter what kind of relationship you were in, it was the quality of love that mattered. And that he saw great expressions of sin in heterosexual relationships in the community and that he had seen great expressions of love in relationships between those of the same gender.

So instead of pointing your finger outward towards others, look within and clean up your own act.

I liked this because it held more of the possibility of a direction for finding the kingdom of God on earth. I think the point is we should all be striving to create relationships that express the highest principles of respect and dignity, no matter who the relationship is with.

If we cannot agree and the best way we can express that together right now is by having the state getting out of the business of legitimizing marriages altogether and into the business of legalizing civil unions for all, that is the expression of respect and dignity we should go for.

It's imperfect and not what I believe, but it's better than legitimizing marriage for some and not for others legally. And it gives us time to learn as a community and society how to live into some of these questioins.

Anonymous said...

field negro regarding your request for a response to: 'Yes, civil rights dictate that all men are created equal but by whose interpretation.'

Just a sista from Texas being sarcastic - for when have all men really been created equal? If that were the case, we would not be discussing this article, gays would be as miserably married/divorced as 'heteros.'

So that leaves one to believe that 'created equal' is interpretational....IMHO

Antonio said...

Thanks for writing this. I wholeheartedly agree.

One thing though: if blacks had voted at the same rate as whites it would've still passed. And there are lots of demographics that voted at higher rates than blacks. A shift in Catholic polling a week before election day caused a lot more votes for Prop 8 than all the blacks in CA.

Still doesn't let the black community off the hook for its rampant and largely unchallenged homophobia though.

Anonymous said...

marriage is a holy christian union/concept, i dont see how one can reconcile homosexuality and marriage???? do we want to rewrite the bible or change christianity? that said, homosexuals should be allowed to have all the legal rights that a hetrosexual married couple have. they should be able to have civil unions that accord them all the legal rights that heteros have.
I think for christians, using the word married to describe the union of two people of the same sex is an abomination.




/

tenacitus said...

As others said it was not the fault of black folks in cali yhat prop hate passed. It was mainly due to the lds church, nights of columbus & other rightwing fucks who spent money & time getting ALL californians to try and take away other people's rights.

Much better writers than I have discussed this issue such as Portly Dyke and Rikyrah

Lastly bean twn chica no one should ever be told how to fight for their human rights, if black folks had waited for white folks to give them their human & civil rights as many of them used to say we would still be experiencing slavery now. Some fuck necks had the gall back in the 60s to say blacks should have been greatful to jfk & lbj for giving them the right to use the same toilet & drink from the same fountain as them.

If not for the extremists glbt people would still get fired just for who they were.

hennasplace said...

JP:

There are other places of employment where people are exposed to carcinogens. Restaurants that grill and smoke meat. I went to a Portuguese restaurant and they used wood to barbeque beef, chicken, and meat. The patrons and employees are exposed to the smoke that carry the same carcinogens as smoking cigarettes. Cigar bars still exist in NYC, and the employees assumed the risk of the working in that environments.

I am digesting from the topic. I think African-Americans need to understand that is is important to protect everyone's civil rights. In addition, there is an economic component to marriage. You cannot prevent people from getting a job or economic freedom because of their race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation. Gay people do face some violence just ask Matthew Shepard's family. It's not making comparison as one commenter wrote in an earlier post about my people have suffered more that is something a 7 year-old would say. It's not to suppress other people's civil rights period because of whatever personal peeve you that day. Let's look at the statistics in this sense 7 out of 10 African-Americans voted yes to ban Prop 8. It doesn't mean they were responsible for passing the ban, but they were a contributing factor. I am sorry, but some of the biggest homophobic people I have ever meant were black men. I do not know why this is the case, but I suspect it's about their own insecurities may have about their own sexuality. They are gay people within the black community, he is Alvin the choir director. Donald McClurken is gay, although he has a difficult time admitting that fact and it's the reason why he protest too much.

I think of Major Alan Greg Rogers, and African-American who served this country by serving and died in action could not come out because the Army would have immediately discharged him because of his sexual orientation due to the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy which is one of the dumbest ideas that came from the Clinton Administration. The man served this country well, but we allow our infantile behavior about sex get in the way. We are not comforting to talking about sex, but have one the biggest porno industries in the world. Our attitude about sex needs to change.

Connecticut Man1 said...

Not too long ago, Connecticut had a hearing on this debate and the views put forward by some of the far right religious that came and testified were more than enough to wake the voters up. One of these wingnutters literally asked "What's next? Will we be allowing people to marry dolphins?" (I swear, paraphrased... But a close to it "quote" someone here put on YouTube.) Those on the right keep saying "it is a slippery slope!" "Where do we draw the line?" Same sex marriage? Polygamy?

One of the best questions asked at one point was asked by one of the legislators. He stated the fact that not too long ago his marriage to a woman of a different race would have been illegal. "How is this law any different?"

The fact is that while the right wing keeps talking about a slippery slope... That we are trying to bring the world back up to a level place... From the slippery slope the nutters already dragged the questions down to.

RisingTide said...

Somebody Mentioned the Holocaust -- seemed ta think I'd give 'em crap for mentioning it in regards to gay folks.

They died there too. Gay folks, Catholics, Dissenters of all sorts.

It's "Never Again" -- that's Elie Wiesel on a hunger strike over Rwanda.

Not just for Jews, but for anyone.

Now, folks, y'all are totally misreading that Leviticus. As a Jew, I understand that was about idolatry first and foremost (homosexuality was one of those idolatrous traditions back in the day). So if you worship God righteously, you can still be gay. It's okay. Not A Sin.

Kriss said...

Can someone tell me when a Constitution in this country has been changed to take away the rights of individuals instead of granting them? Proposition 8 wasn't about Gay people wanting to change the constitution...the church is the one that actually changed the constitution to deny gays the right to get married. Whether you support gays or not...that's a scary thought.

As for the slippery slope argument that the church uses...it's extremely lame. The whole "well, if we do this..what's to stop someone from marrying a goat?". Well, I think using the same arguments we use with children work. Just like a 12 year old can't give consent...neither can a goat. End of story.

Jennifer said...

I was so high on the election, prop. 8 killed my buzz.

I love the Alice Walker quote... thank you.

I'm reminded of one of Ghandi's...

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Jennifer said...

Kriss,

I can think of a time when the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution worked to take away the rights of individuals...

Plessy vs. Ferguson

1896, said that the 14th Amendment did not protect persons from private entities that violated their civil rights, and led to the implementation of the Jim Crow laws.

There are several cases in which the Supreme Court de facto invalidated legislation protecting the civil rights of individuals.

Not to mention things like the various Sedition Acts which have been passed over the years.

Anonymous said...

Field, I got two words for you: Isaiah Washington.

Remember the racist s**t he got from white gays and lesbians for saying the word faggot? According to my peeps in L.A., that was still on the minds and tongues of quite a few folks just before the election. Could it have been a 'payback is a bitch' vote? After all, all Black folks aren't religious, have an opinion one way or another about the issue, nor are they straight and support the concept of gay marriage (notice that you almost never see black gay/lesbian couples in the media, even during such an important rights push as this). Tim Hardaway deserved the trashing he got for saying he hated gays; Washington isn't a stone-cold homophobe (he played gay in Spike Lee's Get On The Bus and has been involved in quite a few AIDS-related causes, something most black het celebs refuse to do), but you'd never know it given the lynch mob mentality expressed by many white gays at the time. You'd think the brother called for their extermination. You can't spit on us and then expect us to have your back.

cinque said...

Hello Field,

I live in California not more than 20 miles from San Fran and I voted against prop 8. I can also tell you that 70% of black people voting for this proposition is not more than 52% Hispanic or 48% asian(which includes Tongan, Samoan and all other pacific islanders) Am I ashamed at the percentage? Yes, but you must get this notion that 70% of AA's is a huge number in California!! It is not. This proposition would have passed had it been 50% black folks voting. So please realize that this did not hinge on the black vote.

bean twn chica said...

I knew you all would jump on me but I was tired of the argument that if you don't want to affirm gay marriage you are a racist. I don't understand the argument that NOTHING is against the Creator's laws but we have to follow Mankind's laws. I'm tired of equating the civil rights movement with gay rights. No gay person was subjected to 400 years of slavery, Jim Crow or segregation. It makes me upset that if I do not agree I'm told to leave the country.

amerikka says its for the belief people should have freedoms to believe and follow the religion they want, of course unless you disagree with the popular sentiment of the time. Please stop equating this with interracial marriage and how it was not legal at one time. this was a law by man I am following the Creator's laws. Please also do not assume I pick and choose what laws to follow, I am a strict Muslim. A black Muslim, I am not an Arab, or member of the Nation. My imam said never to follow any man on Earth read the scriptures they are a set of moral stories, a guide to follow.

You will not shame me into disregarding my Creator's laws. This is probably the same thing that happened when Moses was on the mountaintop, the same disregard that Ham had, and I believe in the Old Testament because I know it is about black people, the origianl and first people on the Earth. I have studied each text, translated from
the original Aramaic. I know when the Romans and Greeks hijacked our texts added some and put together the "Bible". I know that there are no J's in "jesus'" original language. I know his name was Y'ashua and Moses name was Musa, etc. I have studied all religions their origins, I don't need a lecture. I read the Book of John and Revelations separately and the Book of Barnabas which the church of England took out of the Bible. I don't need a lecture on religious texts I am a student of many subjects. My attitude is I don't believe anything anyone tells me, I have to research the subject first. So I reject your arguments and your anger, you will not shame me into disavowing my beliefs.

Jennifer said...

I commend you on the strength of your faith, bean twn. I envy it.

The LEGAL argument, at least my argument, for affirming LGBTQ rights to marriage is made considering the establishment clause, "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," and the free exercise clause, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

ergo... you can practice Islam freely, and Congress can't make any laws which give preference to Islam over other faiths. And if my faith is one which permits marriage between those in the LGBTQ community, then Congress can't pass a law giving preference to your "creator's laws" over my "creator's laws."

It's not an argument meant to negate or insult your beliefs. On the contrary, it's the EXACT argument which gives you protection under the law to practice Islam.

Marrell said...

Have to agree with B.walker. How can we be to blame when we make up such a small amount of the population? I live in Cali, and I am just simply fed up. How can we have our first black president and then have such a bigoted law passed? No matter what you believe, I'm sorry it is just not fair, period. I'm am truly so done on this friggin' matter.

hennasplace said...

Bean:

I do not believe anyone is angry with you, and you have ever right to have your personal belief. However, you personal belief cannot affect the society of the whole. People have to live their lives as they wish, and cannot make others believe as you do by passing a law. I disagree with you, but I understand your point. This is a struggle for you because you dealing with different ideas between religious law and common law, and I am not going to quote any bible versus. We all have inner conflict that we all struggle. How does a person reconcile being against abortion, but for the death penalty, or vica versa? That is quite the moral conundrum. Another one would that I may to kill one person to say many. These are things in life can certainly make you think, and everything is not black and white. The way you think could be tested by things that outside of your control.

The issue of Prop 8 is not a religious issue, but a civil rights. Law by the state is not in the business of morality, but it does set the rules of society. I do not believe that a law should be pass because I do not like the way he or she lives their lives. If you suppress someone's rights, you are next person in line to your rights suppressed. Bean, you have a first amendment right to religion and speech. What do think would happen if some people who did like the fact that you are muslim and did not want you to live in their neighborhood, and decided to put a propositions on the ballot prevent all muslims from purchasing a home, marrying a non-muslim person, and prevent you from working in certain industries. That is discrimination and they are telling how and where you should live. You need to protect the rights of others, so that your rights remain tact. It's about protecting the rights of few for the benefit of the many.

The people who brought that Prop 8 are bigots, they do not like gays, jews, muslims, blacks, any group of people who are not like them. Prop 8 is just a start, they are after gay people because it's the easiest group to target to erode their rights and the others are next. Trust me on this is how people in this country operate.

La ~ Incognita said...

RisingTide, thanks for bringing that point out to me.

Tammy, that "back of the bus" statement you spitefully spit out was the core of my point. There was a reason you said it in a forum full of black readers. No wonder Dark Moon's post bothered you so much, claim your cap. Sone white gay people like you don't know any other way to battle your "proposition" problem with another valid argument. You piggy back the black civil rights struggle, and yet mockingly throw it in the faces of black people when you can't have your way. Typical. Why must black people be everybody's scapegoat or be expected to chime in for ammunition (or else) as if we owe anybody for being able to be considered HUMAN in the first place. Who's next NAMBLA?

Anonymous said...

Funny, I don't usually respond to your topic F but this one hits me in the heart. Though I am not gay I can not see any sense in not giving a person or persons rights in this country that are guaranteed to others. I'm tired of people getting hung up on terminology that guarantees rights. Your sign said all you need to say. Judge not least ye be judged. What don't people get about that. I can go into the bible and manipulate the words for justification to kill everyone. See the crusades jackasses. This is about love of ones fellow man and correct me if I'm wrong but Jesus told us to do that.

Bustedsbro

Cipher said...

Dude, i love you. (in the most non-homoerotic way.) Gawd, you nailed it.

La ~ Incognita said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Red Devil said...

Field, you absolutely fucking rocks.

Soapbubble said...

If 'religious' people want to protect the sanctity of marriage, why not just ban divorce?

Dark Moon said...

Bullshit. It was bullshit when Dark Moon posted about it (I went back and read the comment) and it is bullshit now when you repeat it. If there are any issues

I don’t give a fuck if you think its bullshit. I have personally seen the direct effects of Gay minorities, especially poor Black gay men and women’s voices and concerns being willfully ignored by major Gay organizations, but I guess your white privilege allows you to callously dismiss these concerns as something that I pulled out my ass to further glorify in victimization and somehow siphon away gay marriage. I have repeated that I thought that it was wrong, but I have stated why the proposition failed and what gay activists could have done to galvanize stronger support among minority gay men and women instead of making assumptions and not understanding the undertow of homophobia within the Black community--which I will add is rampant in all communities.

In addition, the fact that a few other minorities posters chimed in to support my point with anecdotal evidence, shows that there is a problem of disparity within the community. Nevertheless I personally do not care if you believe it or not—your white privilege perfectly illustrates that sublime advantage of dismissing something that you are not directly effected by.

Thanks la incognita for understanding my point.

Li'l Old White Lady from California said...

Field, great post.

Go read Shanikka on the numbers: Facts Belie the Scapegoating of Black People for Proposition 8.

Go read the California Council of Churches on Talking About Marriage Equality from a Faith Perspective.

Go read the message from People for the American Way on Blaming Black Voters for Prop. 8 Loss is Wrong and Destructive, in particular this passage:

As part of that long-term campaign, People For the American Way Foundation conducted focus groups among African American churchgoers in California in September. Among men and women, and among younger and older groups, we found strong opposition to discrimination against LGBT people in employment and housing....

But our focus groups also showed us that marriage equality faces a higher hurdle. Many people in our focus groups had
difficulty sorting out the difference between civil marriage and marriage as a religious institution. Even some of the most eloquent opponents of discrimination argued that marriage was somehow different because they saw it as an inherently religious act that God had designed to be between a man and a woman. Rev. Kenneth Samuel, chair of the AAMLC’s Equal Justice Task Force, says we need to be in “tough and loving” conversation to get people to think differently about that question, and to grapple with separating religious belief from commitment to constitutional principles of equality under the law. That’s a hard conversation to have in the midst of a heated political campaign.


Personally, I think that's were we need to go: to have those tough conversations to get everyone to understand that state marriage (the license, the freedom to marry) is distinct from the religious significance of marriage.

As to the tidal wave of "Yes on 8" money that came from Utah...that's another issue.

I will be looking very carefully at who donated to the Yes on 8 campaign. California's Secretary of State has a website that allows you to know who donated what to which proposition. Here's the link. note: some of the pages are very slow to load, due to the depth of data.

Global Wire said...

You all should read Jasmyne Cannick's piece in Friday's LA Times. She is right on point with many of you. The prop 8 movement was pretty much run by privilege white gays who didn't make any effort to make alliances with either the straight OR gay black communities, and now are trying to find someone to blame for this unfortunate mess.

I grow wary of the (white) gay community throwing around the civil rights movement comparison without any context. If the stuff about the n-word being used against blacks by white gay protesters is true, then that is a bigger set back to the gay community than losing prop 8.

Anonymous said...

Connecticut Man1 - that 'slippery slope' is REAL! Like it or not! Somebody is always going to have a civil rights issue.

Ask yourself, what would stop a brother from marrying his sister (they have civil rights); 1st cousins marrying (they have civil rights); father/daughter; mother/son; polygamist (they all have civil rights); pedophiles with children (they have civil rights) are you feeling that slippery slope - and this comment is not religious nor meant to be disgusting - just reality as it pertains to civil rights! Whose on next?

Also, for those considering a YES vote discrimination - Shame On You! So you have a right to want what you want but the person you are asking to vote doesn't if it differs from your own?

Would any of you VOTE YES for any of the slippery slope issues? Does that mean you are discriminating if you don't? Would you be denying those persons their rights or could those slippery slope issues just be against your belief as rational or accepting?

Soapbubble said...

Relatives won't marry because the majority of people know that that's stupid. Anyone who has taken a biology course knows about the familial genetic defects so that would not be an issue. Except in Utah.

Anonymous said...

The proposition 8 racial strife is the same as what went down here in Massachusetts, only here marriage was decided by the MA supreme court and not the voters. The rich white gay community made no effort to reach out to the black community on why marriage would be important to them, although they selected 'token' black politicians to be their spokespeople. They kept forcing "the civil rights movement is the same as gay right" BS at every possible moment. It wasn't until after the supreme court made the decision that the gay people wanted to talk to black people.

Typicial, Massachusetts and California gays are peas in the same pod.

Coincidentally, many of the gay marriage proponents from Mass went to Cali to work on this Prop 8. So there is no surprise in this decision.

Anonymous said...

Bookoo kudos to you FN for telling it like 'tis!! Can't thank you enough for the work you do to make a difference.
I always thought "marriage" was an issue for the laity - a church/religious thing; and that "civil union" is a secular/state thing. Am I wrong? And,...within recent memory... Did not Thurgood Marshall and the legal teams of the NAACP use the separation of church and state clause(s) in our Constitution to encourage the Supreme Court to rule: "Un-Constitutional" those 19th/20th centuries' laws that prohibited inter-racial marriage? My, my...how soon WE (of all people) forget.
I HOPE! that "Obamania" includes bringing the blatant, in-your-face hypocrisies of organized religion to the merciful light of day. I dunno... The bliss of ignorance is hard to give up.
Thank you for standing up and making it plain. The LGBT communities should think twice before they mix their issues with civil rights - they ARE NOT THE SAME.
And for you believers of/in the 'talking snake' and 'virgin mother': Since when is it okay to usurp and assume judgment authority over your god(s)? Please, god/goddess, reach out the sky and smack pimp-preachers and their adherents upside their collective heads...Amen.

"Flash"

Kat said...

Facts Belie the Sacpegoating of Black People for proposition 8

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235
---
The fact is Prop 8 passed but
based on the CNN exit poll, the level of religiousity, conservatism, age, and level of education played a far greater role in determining yes or no vote and for people to put the bulk of the blame on black people as a race without taking into account other factors is wrong.

Not to mention the Vote No campaign efforts was simply ABYSMAL.

The most direct comparison that can be made about the issue of Gay marriage is NOT with the Civil Rights Movement but with the Supreme court case: Loving v. Virginia(1967)

as well as prop 8 violates the 14th amendment which states:

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".

Tammy said...

I have personally seen the direct effects of Gay minorities, especially poor Black gay men and women’s voices and concerns being willfully ignored by major Gay organizations, but I guess your white privilege allows you to callously dismiss these concerns as something that I pulled out my ass to further glorify in victimization and somehow siphon away gay marriage.

Ah, here we go. If I disagree with you, it's my white privilege kicking in. It always comes back to race. I can't just simply disagree. And the fact that we disagree illustrates my point exactly which I thought about more on the way to work. If the gay community would concentrate more on coming together instead of further dividing ourselves (Lesbians can't get along with gay men, now - apparently - it's gonna be blacks against whites - the poor bisexuals never got along) maybe we could get shit done. But no, instead, we always trying to define ourselves and worry about who has what. That is the point I was trying to make. You are free, of course, to disagree. And I can see you probably will. But to speak for the entire gay community, well, sorry. You do not. Now, you can dismiss me out of hand - the same thing you claim I'm doing. So what makes you any better that you can play the dismissal game?

Tammy, that "back of the bus" statement you spitefully spit out was the core of my point. There was a reason you said it in a forum full of black readers.

And incognita, when you are discussing or debating things with people you generally try to make them understand by relating to them with things they understand. You don't just pull things out of thin air that they have no experience with else how are they ever going to understand your plight or side of things? Please explain to me what sense would it make to try and explain things to someone by using examples that do not relate to them at all or with which they have zero experience with? When gay people are told to 'not be so bold' or to 'not show affection' or any number of things, if you can't see how that equates them to second class citizens, then I don't know what to tell you.

Jmee said...

The Prop H8 vote has passed. What are we going to do now? All this arguing over civil rights vs.religion on a blog still won't change what happened last Tuesday unless we do something. The lack of not doing anything is why we are in this predicament right now.

Like someone stated before we shouldn't be voting on these types of issues its not right. Its horrible that we are voting on rights that should be afforded to us equally no matter race, gender or sex. For those who believe in equality among all, lets help fight for this cause.

Zimbel said...

@bean twn chica- are you also for stoning people who have sex before or outside of marriage? Because if so, you have a very small base from which to draw on (and without gay marriage, it's not going to include gays either)...

Deuteronomy

"22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
22:15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
22:16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
22:18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
22:19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you. If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die.

22:22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. "

La ~ Incognita said...

Tammy I wasn't the one that made the original statement about "being bold to marry" if that's the statement that's really riding you. I was responding to that "back of the bus" sarcastic line you threw in the air.

You also said: "You don't just pull things out of thin air that they have no experience with else how are they ever going to understand your plight or side of things?"

Well I think that could also apply to you and the gay community as well. No? And save your condescending reverse psychobabble, you're the one that's doing or should be doing the "plighting"...
I personally don't have a problem with or care who people choose to marry (as long as it's not with children), just leave my black ancestral struggles out of it, and clean up the racism within the gay community before you point hypocritically fingers at black people.

"...majority of people know that that's stupid. Anyone who has taken a biology course knows about the familial genetic defects so that would not be an issue."

Soapbubble, do you really think it's helpful to bring in the "biological" genetics procreation course in a gay sex or gay marriage debate?

soapbubble said...

I was responding to another post.

Bible Reading Christian - oguntheironman@hotmail.com said...

Firstly, let me share a Biblical correction with "bean twn chica" U said the following in your comment: "I believe that the residents of the Earth were destroyed in a great flood and a curse was put upon Ham for the sin of homosexuality."

This statement is Biblically incorrect, please read Genesis chapter 9 verse 25 whenever u have some time & u will see that GOD never cursed Ham(Khem), GOD cursed Ham/Khem's son Canaan! The 'Curse of Ham' is a misnomer & has been a historically false justification for all kinds of racist ideas such as the enslavement of Africans....

Now back to the discussion - the Bible speaks against the gay/lesbian lifestyles in a long list of Old Testament & New Testament scriptures, (since this blog aint a Bible study just email me if u want a few Biblical passages on this issue) so no matter if I have love for my gay &/ lesbian family, friends, co-workers & neighbors, if GOD's word says their lifestyle is wrong well that's that!

State laws are not able to change the divinely ordained position of the Holy Scripture!

Now here's the tough question that Christians like me & thousands of others have to struggle with: do Christians really NEED the US Government (or any political state) to make a law in order to enforce the teachings of GOD's Word???

The truthful answer to this question is "NO!"

The passage of Proposition 8 has not suddenly made the state of California (or the entire USA) more holy, more saved, more righteous, or more Christian in the sight of GOD!

The sad reality is that California or any other US state is NOT Christian, Unrighteous, UNsaved & UNholy!

The USA as a political state has millions of sins to answer for and allowing gay marriage is barely the tip fo the iceberg!

What about some other sins that most Christians fail to comment upon such as - warfare for $$$ profit, imperialism, colonialism, the slave trade, jim crow, human rights abuses in hundreds of domestic prisons (have any of u visited a penetentiary lately? some of these places here in USA look like Abu Ghraib), the pornography industry, child abuse,rape, incest, drug abuse, etc. etc.

The scriptures teach Christians to regulate the lifestyles of ourselves, our families, & our church communities. We are not responsible for regulating the state government neither the lifestyles of others - even if their lifestyles are sinful!

We are Biblically commanded to teach, preach, counsel & encourage others to obey what GOD says but to jump on the political bandwagon & pass laws to enforce GOD's word gets us on a slippery slope.

The implication is Prop.8 is that the Perfect GOD needs the help of imperfect & sinful humankind to validate the truth of GOD's word.....

Christians should be spending the Church's money & time & energy developing ministries to assist people and this even includes gays &/lesbians who decide of their own free will to obey the Gospel of Jesus the Christ.....How many of these churches that had money for the Prop 8 lobbyists have a qualified relationship/mental health counselor for a gay/lesbian Christian convert to speak with about their sexuality???

probably none of them.... SAD!

We Christians need to remember that when Jesus walked the earth He spenty his time helping & teaching people NOT lobbying the Roman state or the local Jewish governments!!

My overall point - if the USA state wants to allow gays to be married, let the US state do what it wants to do! If gays/lesbians want to get married - let them! GOD has already spoken on this matter and no amounts of laws or gay/lesbian marriage cermonies are going to change the scriptures!


Like Joshua said, in Joshua 24:15 "As for me & my house we will serve the Lord"

Me, my partner, my minister, my Church of Christ family & all fellow believers will continue to obey GOD's word on this & all other matters.

Prop. 8 is/was UNnecessary & a distraction from the REAL WORK of the Kingdom of GOD.

Tracer said...

As a AA I voted against Prop 8 because I believe that two adults of any gender should have the same rights.

The word marriage has always been connected in our culture with a religious ceremony, one usually invoking divine authority.

As I see it, the true function of marriage in our society is the social recognition and sanction of the joining of two adults who choose to bond emotionally and presumably) spiritually as well.

That being said, I understand that such an issue will never win a voting majority as long as there are a significant number of people who oppose same sex relationships on religious grounds.

J said...

I have to thank George W. Bush because what his administration accomplished in working towards the destruction of democracy in the United States gave rise to the Presidency of Barack Obama. I'm not sure the majority of Americans would have been ready to take him seriously otherwise. I'm not sure the media would have taken him seriously. There are some that would argue that and I don't wish to take away from the future President as it was by his merits with which he won the election but he certainly had help. The ineptitude of the McCain campaign and the failures of the Bush administration contributed to bring about this moment in history when the right man arrived at the right time.

It appears though that we are quickly losing sight of why change was needed in this country of ours. We suffered eight of divisive leadership which sought to segment society and destroy us through our differences. This cannot go on! My faith has no place in my politics and vice-versa. Leislating our sense of morality upon others is not a decision we should be making. Their might come a day when we find ourselves on the other side of the argument and another's morality is being imposed upon us.

Intolerance is what forced this nation into existence and intolerance will be its undoing.

La ~ Incognita said...

soapbubble said...
""I was responding to another post."

And I knew which post it was, but you said it to dismiss the anony's point. So I was simply trying to show you how someone else could still use that against you to debate why Gay people should not even be together... genetics, procreation, biological. on that note, some people could find Gay relations stupid too. Just saying...

Anonymous said...

As a straight dj who has spun records in many a gay funtion,i have seen the racism first hand from the gay community,they discriminate againts straight people & would deny black gays & black straight acess to clubs,v i p
areas & so on.I have no problems with gays,but anal sex is a choice,deviant sexuallity ia a choice,you made your bed now lie down.Any rapp song from the 90's will tell you blacks for the most part arent down with booty pirates.

Jennifer said...

"I personally don't have a problem with or care who people choose to marry (as long as it's not with children)"

So... does this mean you support or oppose equality for the LGBTQ community?

Anonymous said...

I don’t even get how it is legal to outlaw gay marriage in the U.S. Don’t laws now pretty much support the idea that you can’t discriminate against people for any reason? That includes sexual orientation. I don’t get how you could get sued because of not hiring someone because you didn’t agree with the fact that they are gay, yet denying someone the right to marry is perfectly okay. Secondly, wasn’t this country founded on the idea of separation of church and state? Therefore, it seems inappropriate to me that you would be allowed to deny people marriage based on your classification that gay marriage is a sin. I am fine with preachers not marrying people in their churches if they don’t think that it is right. But, under the law marriage really is a legal union. And please, people, quit arguing that gay marriage jeopardizes all marriages! No one is going to force you to marry someone of the same sex if you’re not into the homosexuality thing, okay. So just calm down and mind your own business.

grinder said...

Thank you for your posting, field. I appreciate it more than you know. When Obama won last Tuesday, I was overjoyed, but when the Prop 8 news came out, along with the news of heavy black support for it, I felt like I had been punched in the gut.

No gay person was subjected to 400 years of slavery, Jim Crow or segregation.

Neither was any black person. No one lives to be 400 years old. I have a personal aversion to playing the Queen For A Day victim card, the reference being to the old TV show where the woman with the saddest story got some new appliances. So, let me simply say that for every sad story any living black person can put out there about his or her experiences, I can match it with either my own or that of someone I know who has been hurt on account of being gay. If you don't want to believe me, then don't.

So, are we in some sort of contest to see who is most oppressed, and the loser gets to keep being oppressed? I hope not, because that's a game I refuse to play.

The rich white gay community made no effort to reach out to the black community on why marriage would be important to them, although they selected 'token' black politicians to be their spokespeople.

Statements like yours frustrate me for three reasons. First, you imply that gay = white, which ignores the many gay people are non-white. Second, I read a disrespect for those efforts that were made. Ah, an endorsement for our position by a black politician must be tokenism. Sounds like we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

Third, what efforts should have been made to reach out? My understanding is that the main unifying institution among black folks is the church, but in many cases the church is hostile to gay people.

I have read some criticisms of the gay community for not having embraced various economic struggles faced by blacks. But the white Mormons, evangelical megachurches, and Republican businessmen in California who financed the Yes on 8 campaign didn't do that, yet they seemed to have won a whole lot of black support.

That said, I hasten to add that gay p.r. campaigns have rarely been very good. Gay people have often made advances not because of their political organizations but in spite of them. In any case, I'd like to see some constructive and specific ideas for how to do it better next time.

Personally the I think the government should get out of the marriage business. Give every one civil unions(heterosexual and homosexual) and let the preachers decide who is married.

I absolutely agree with that. It's been my own position ever since this issue gained prominence about five years ago. In 2003, I went to a public meeting of gay people and stood up and gave this point of view. I was not well received, to put it mildly.

I don't think the government should be sanctifying anything. But as long as they stay in that business, then I don't think my group ought to be told it has to sit in the back of the bus, or worse yet, forced to walk.

It's ironic, to put it mildly, that I grew up being told that gay people can't form lasting relationships, and that now I'm hearing that the majority of voters in a bunch of places are offended because we've formed lasting relationships.

I never understand the argument, if the speed limit is posted for 65 mph and I drive 75mph I am breaking the law and will get fined. But when it comes to the Creator's laws we can pick and choose and he will give us a pass even when we break them, huh? So I have to follow Man's law but I can ignore the Creator of the Earth, wind, universe, animals, all life because I know better?

Let's put it this way. If I am damned to hell for eternity, how about giving me a chance to live as I want to for a little while? After all, in your scheme, I can't change God's laws and neither can you, so what difference does any of this make to you? We're not long on earth.

Something else to ponder: Jesus didn't say a single word about homosexuality, but he had quite a few things to say about divorce and about hypocrisy.

But wait wait wait! How can Black folks be to blame when they make up less than 10% of California?

The math of this is a long story. I dove deep into the numbers, and have been discussing it elsewhere. If you want to take a look, then click here. (Nerd alert.)

As for whether blacks should be "blamed," I don't think of it in those terms. I was hurt and disappointed by what happened, and I would like to see things improve.

There is something else that really needs to be said. In 2000, there was a similar referendum in California and it passed by a 24% margin. This year it passed by a 4% margin. I'm disappointed at what happened, but narrowing the margin from 24% to 4% was very good news.

Next time we'll win, as long as we can avoid killing each other in the meantime. I don't seek to deny the fact that some gays are racists, but I think there's less racism in the gay community than there is elsewhere. That's my observation over the years, anyway. Are things perfect? Hell no. But little by little, they have gotten better.

I have no problems with gays,but anal sex is a choice,deviant sexuallity ia a choice,you made your bed now lie down.

And of course straight people have never done anal sex, right? Oh, and did I mention that I was once ruler of Neptune before landing on Earth two years and six months ago to colonize your interesting planet?

Kriss said...

Thanks Jennifer. I guess what I meant was actually changing the Constitution...not the Supreme Court interpreting it in a way that limits rights. Proposition 8 adds the text "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." to the State Constitution. That to me is like if a vote was taken to add the text "All men are created equal...as long as they aren't black" to the Constitution.

Regardless how people feel about the gay lifestyle...adding that so blatantly to the constitution is bad for the country.

Houston said...

Field, thanks for this post. It is appreciated.

I think the answer is working its way up the food chain. The state needs to get itself out of the business of enforcing religious dogma. Let's just have civil unions and let churches marry or not marry anyone they want.

Nick Stump said...

I'm sick of churches, black and white, being tricked by Republicans to vote against Democrats by using gay issues. We've lost Presidential races with this bullshit and more than anything, it's just plain old ignorance rearing it's ugly head.

This old Vet thanks you, Field, for the nod to us on Veterans Day. Today in France, there's a poppy in every lapel. Thank you.

annoyed and never coming back said...

Kriss did you not get the memo not to compare gayness with black discrimination?

grinder, your dismisive no one lives to be four hundred years old shit was annoying and stupid.

junior from bermuda said...

i don't care WHO you sleep with, as long as you get some sleep!!!

grinder said...

grinder, your dismisive no one lives to be four hundred years old shit was annoying and stupid.

I'm an avid student of history, but when someone throws his 400 or 4,000 years at someone else, I think it's entirely reasonable -- and necessary -- to toss that grenade back at he who threw it.

This is America. We are the New World. The fact that we are not prisoners of history is what makes every bit of our progress even possible.

Anonymous said...

I think it's entirely reasonable -- and necessary -- to toss that grenade back at he who threw it.
***********

Violence doesn't solve anything and won't get anyone anywhere.

Kriss said...

annoyed and never coming back,

I'm not comparing black discrimination to gayness. I'm merely drawing a comparison as to what this is like in my eyes in terms of the law. Another example would be them writing into the Constitution that we have the right to bear arms except those who listen to rap music. Basically what was done was the constitution was changed to discriminate on a group of people due to their preference. That might (and that's a big might) make sense if it was done for the good of the rest of society but no one can give a reason for how it is. These people are still gay, you still have to see them and interact with them. What has this measure done to change any of that? If religious folk are worried about "sin by association" then they should pack up their things and move to a deserted island somewhere because this measure hasn't stopped gay people from "sinning".

To have this argument in the church is one thing. To have the government defining what is marriage is a dangerous thing though and a totally separate issue.

Jody said...

For anyone thinking that there is not discrimination, let me point out to you that CURRENTLY, there is NO Federal anti-discrimination protection for gay/lesbians. There are 20 states that have no protections. That means that if someone is living in one of those 20 states, they can be fired, denied housing, access to public facilities, denied custody of their own child, (excluding federal employees, which is really wierd cuz there are no other federal protections) for being gay... There is NOT legal recourse!

And, someone mentioned the holocaust. Well, guess what... that pink triangle you see as a gay symbol... where do you think that came from? It is what the Nazis made the gays/lesbians wear, before they tossed them in the ovens. AND, it was the gays that were rounded up FIRST, kind of a test to see if there was tolerance for their disappearance, which sadly, there was. AND, when the nazi camps were liberated, everyone was freed EXCEPT the gay survivors, who were continued to be imprisoned by the Allied forces!
And finally, today... in 2008, there are too many countries where gays are imprisoned or KILLED, state sanction KILLED, for being gay.

I am not comparing shit. I am just sayin.... all because of who we LOVE!

grinder said...

Violence doesn't solve anything and won't get anyone anywhere.

I was speaking figuratively. (sigh) Verbal grenade!

Just-mimi said...

I think there are a number of hurdles for gay marriage two of which stand out to me:

1) The belief that being gay is a choice (a deviant one at that).

2) The conventional wisdom that marriage is a religious institution (and by that definition it is the union of a man and a woman).

The first hurdle can be overcome through constructively engaging with people who hold this belief in order to enlighten them.

I have had black gay friends and having seen the impact on their lives, I just can't see how they would make such a choice if it was within their control.

However bearing in mind what the perception is, to simply tell someone Gay = Black does not advance the argument. And for a black person that holds this belief, that line of argument is likely to result in a yes vote.

Having been actively engaged in church most of my life, I just can't see most religious people being swayed much. A 'sin is a sin' period!

The second hurdle is a tricky one. Again with religious folk, they are unlikely to change their viewpoint on the first point and similarly on the second it's pretty black and white.

But I also think that there are a good number of non-religious people who have 'bought into' the whole 'sancity of marriage' 'union of man and woman' and when you sprinkle in other prejudicial attitudes, its hard to see how gay marriage can survive the onslaught.

I believe that the best argument on gay rights is one framed around discrimination and injustice against the gay community itself. Obsessing around black = gay (whatever the degree of equivalence) in some ways detracts from suffering gays have to go through and rightly or wrongly offends some people. It takes the argument down that track of false equivalence etc etc. Now I've heard on the news of people who were beaten to death for being gay WTF, to my mind higlighting such hate advances gay rights more than drawing equivalences with black peoples struggles. There are equivalences but I think they are fraught with difficulty and more so when I don't think it is the best argument for gay rights.

Fundamentally the reason there is even a fight for 'marriage' is because of the rights that flow from it. This is a real difficulty because I don't think the generally accepted meaning of 'marriage' to which I confess to subscribe to will be changed any time soon. Being a religious institution (per conventional wisdom) incompatible with same-sex marriage, the best course of action is for civil unions to confer equivalent rights.

And the proposition should be phrased thus:

Do you believe same-sex couples should have equal rights under the constitution?

Some will pose separate but equal? Didn't work, won't work (I think even Field flashed that card)

In fact I do think in this instance 'separate but equal' can work. I've seen it in practice in the UK, where spouse = civil partner in a number of laws. The legal provisions are identical so in fact there is no separation as such apart from spouse/civil partner descriptions.

The reason separate but equal did not work was in fact because they were separate but 'not equal' (my opinion).

Tammy said...

I personally don't have a problem with or care who people choose to marry (as long as it's not with children), just leave my black ancestral struggles out of it, and clean up the racism within the gay community before you point hypocritically fingers at black people.

I realize you are not the original person who stated to tone it down. Doesn't mean it doesn't bother me. When I was told by a group of white men that 'my kind was not welcome in their town' because I had a rainbow flag on my car (how's that for white privilege - makes a female who is alone at the time feel real safe, I'll tell you that) know what I did? I got less bold, and stopped showing my flag on my car. So yeah. It rides me.

And for shit's sake, I never said there was no racism at all. I said we can't get our collective shit together which is why we continue to struggle with items like proposition 8 [as a bigger indication of the community's problems].

In using the bus analogy, it was to illustrate a point that continues to be lost so I'll just leave that at the door.

That said, I will continue to state that until the Gay community can stop all this He said, she said bullshit we will NEVER get anything done. That's a fact. As a community, we are fractured. It's not just about racism. It's about sexism, it's about the transgendered, it's about the bisexuals. It's about how we can't seem to get it together because we all can't seem to agree to like each other at one time. And if we want to keep fracturing ourselves further, that's all well and good, but all we are doing is driving a wedge further between us instead of realizing we are all in this together.

And you stating for me to leave your 'black ancestral struggles' out of it is a clear indication of how the two are never equated or understood in some people's eyes. Meaning, we are born with it. Again NOT that the slavery struggle is comparable. Two completely different things that I am talking about here that I cannot seem to get across.

Look to the quoting of the bible whenever that is brought up for proof of that.

sharon in ct said...

Anonymous @12:52 is correct to point out that civil rights are not subject to the "tyranny of the majority." (But sometimes it takes a few decades or centuries to find that out.) I feel sure that Prop 8 will be declared unconstitutional by the CA Supreme Court once a case or two reaches them.

mellaneous said...

good post brother Field since I got here late I won't wade in. But wanted you to know that this preacher (revolutionary-minded one at that) sides with you and there are other progressive Black preachers out there who see the folly in this thinking as well.


Mel

La ~ Incognita said...

Jody, I'm willing to bet if there was a black community then, they would have round them up for the ovens first. (and I even wonder how much sympathy the Jews and the Gays would have had, not knowing they too would have been next - zilch I'm sure).

grinder, yet another sarcastic and insensitive statement towards black oppression. Your "400 years" statement was willfully ignorant. Maybe that's why you're not getting much "black up" from sympathetic yet conscious black people like myself. Keep it up.

Kriss, yes you are comparing the two.

Tammy fair enough. But I will leave you with this. While you can hide your flag, other people can't hide their skin. But I do understand your points. Again, I'm not trying to claim victimhood for black people (I'm not the representative for all or most black people), I just wish some of the GLBT would stop trying to compare or use anti black racism as leverage for orientation acceptance (or whatever definition you choose). Good Night.

grinder said...

But wanted you to know that this preacher (revolutionary-minded one at that) sides with you and there are other progressive Black preachers out there who see the folly in this thinking as well.

I really wish you'd go to a blog called Pam's House blend and do some posting there. Pam is a black lesbian who has dealt extensively with the subjects of racism in the gay community and homophobia in the black community, and has done so with absolutely integrity and stunning honesty.

I don't run that blog, but from having read it over the past couple years I think your candid thoughts on how the gay community can find ways to approach the black community, and in particularly the church-going black community, would be very well-received there.

Shady_Grady said...

For a variety of reasons many Black people simply do not see links or similarities between the "struggles" of gays and those of Black people. Telling them that they must do so is not going to win many converts. In particular the idea that upper middle class gays are "oppressed" just doesn't fly with a lot of Black people.

In addition there were a lot of reasons that the Proposition passed. Black people are roughly 7% of the California population so why should Blacks take all the blame/credit for this event?

There are roughly five times the number of Hispanics as Blacks in California now. Hispanics also supported Prop 8 by a slim majority. Older people in general also supported this proposal. Yet all the ire and hatred is directed towards Blacks. Strange.

There are other forms of "marriage" which are banned in California (polygamy, related people). Those are no better or no worse than gay marriage. In this society marriage is generally held to be between one man and one woman. There are libertarian arguments against that ideal but those weren't the arguments the proponents of gay marriage chose to make.

Finally the language which some gays are using in the aftermath kind of speaks to itself as to why more Black people might not have been more concerned with gay interests.

Racist gays

rorysmomma said...

No disrespect to the gay population, but this is a free country, and we all can vote however we like. I get tired of the whole lets beat up on the black people meme. Sick of it. Gays and Lesbians and Feminists for the most part want black folks to be on board, but if this election has taught me anything, it is that they support us when it supports their own best interests and agendas. So let's not play the game of beat up on the black people. America has beat our asses enough.Why aren't the white gay and lesbian community fussing at the white folks who refused to vote against that proposition. Hey you black folks we voted for your guy why can't you vote for our bill? Quid pro Quo right? Whatever. People vote the way they want to vote. It doesn't make it right, but it is what it is. If we go buy your standards the uneducated, the non property owners and others wouldn't be allowed to vote because they didn't vote the right way.

grinder said...

grinder, yet another sarcastic and insensitive statement towards black oppression. Your "400 years" statement was willfully ignorant.

Look, I majored in American history. I love the subject. My point was that when people run around throwing 400 years of history at other people like it's a weapon, then all you've done is stick a big rock in the living room.

This is the sort of thing they do in Europe. In particular, in what was Yugoslavia. In the 1990s, people there quite literally re-fought battles that had been fought hundreds of years earlier by their ancestors. And for what?

Same deal in the Middle East. You've got Arabs and Jews going at it over tribal land claims that are thousands of years old. Iran and Saudio Arabia? Try Persia and Arabia, and if given half the chance they'd be fighting the mother of all wars right now.

Of course this country has a history. Do you really think I'm not aware of it? But you know what? One side of my family immgrated in the 1880s, and the other side in the 1920s. I was born in 1957. Sorry, but slavery ain't my fault, so don't pin it on me because that dog won't hunt.

I look at all these things as ultimately boiling down to how individuals are treated. I am exquisitely sensitive when it comes to that side of things. For better or for worse, it's how I process all of this. There are individuals trying to make a go of it, and I want them treated with respect, dignity, fairness, and at times some mercy and kindness, regardless of what they are, where they came from, or what they look like.

But I'm sorry, if someone tells me about their 400 years, it's not the way to my heart anyway. I care about you. Why? Because you are you. I'm not saying it's the right way, but it's my way.

grinder said...

Let me put this a different way. If you want to find yourself a group of people in this country whose experience makes the black experience look like a day at the beach, get in the car, drive to the Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota, and see if you can find an Indian who'll put down the bottle long enough to have a long talk.

Now there is a group of people who have been screwed. And don't think they're getting it back from the casinos, because that whole deal is nothing but a mafia rakeoff. Indians are a conquered people, and if you spend any time around them it really shows.

There's no Native American Ophrah. No Michael Jordan. I think Jim Thorpe was the first and last Native American athletic star. The rates of poverty, dysfunction, and despair in that group are just stunning.

And if you want to do the whole history thing, you'll be vacating your house just like I will. Time marches on. I pay attention to history. I don't ignore it. But I refuse to be its prisoner.

grinder said...

No disrespect to the gay population, but this is a free country, and we all can vote however we like. I get tired of the whole lets beat up on the black people meme. Sick of it.

Excuse me, but the election was one week ago. You had a bunch of people who were bummed out, and said so. Some of them said it in a way that pissed me off and offended me. That will happen when people are hurt.

Gay people will move on, believe me. If there's one thing that characterizes the gay tribe is that we are survivors. There's nothing anyone can say about us that we haven't been hearin' for years.

Personally, I'd like to figure out a way to take this disappointment and learn from it. I'm not angry at black people, but I'd be lying if I told you I wasn't hurt by what happened in California. If you expect me to do a happy dance, well sorry that won't happen.

That much said, I've been telling gay people to make sure to remember that what was a 24-point loss in 2000 was a 4-point loss in 2008, and that the stupidest thing anyone can do is start shouting racial epithets at black people or disrespect the black church.

There's been MUCH less of it than some people want to make it appear. The overwhelming reaction to all of this among gay people was to be depressed about the result and to refuse to buy into the racist bullshit that followed from a few people.

rorysmomma said...

I am sorry you feel bad, I am sorry you feel bummed out, but every time I get shitted on, as a woman, as a black woman, I have to pick my self up and keep it moving. I was not trying to negate your sadness, far from it. I am just pissed off that the Michael Savages of the world thrown us under the bus quicker than you can say the word nigga. I am also offended at the whole black gays need to stay away from some white gay communities. Whatever.

grinder said...

I need to follow up on what I wrote about the Indians. The fact of the genocide of the Native Americans does NOT in any way, shape, or form invalidate the tragedy of slavery. To me, slavery and genocide are this country's original sins and we will be dealing with their legacies for a long, long time. Thanks, Founding Fathers. That 3/5th of a man compromise was a real winner.

This all goes back to something I wrote earlier. If we sit here and compare victimhood and shit on the person who fails to come up with a sufficiently shocking and depressing story, and then tell everyone we encounter that they've got to answer for our 5 zillion years of history before we'll talk to them as equals, I happen to think we miss the whole point.

Freedom and dignity are indivisible. If you don't have yours, I don't have mine. If mine is trampled on, then everyone else's is in danger. Understanding and mercy and kindness are the universal language, and unless they are stronger than The Word "No," we do't stand a fucking chance and we don't deserve to.

grinder said...

I am also offended at the whole black gays need to stay away from some white gay communities. Whatever.

Well that sucks. They sure as hell don't have to stay away from me, but then I don't run the whole world.

La ~ Incognita said...

grinder said "I was born in 1957. Sorry, but slavery ain't my fault, so don't pin it on me because that dog won't hunt."

You is one motherskunt. Let me tell you something, one thing I can't stand is non-blacks - especially white people throwing around that guilty delusional white denial bullshit. NO one said you started slavery, no one said you owned slaves. But if you want to play the dumb and racist game, be my guest. Maybe you spent too much time enjoying "history" (I wonder why) that you can't even see your arrogance and white privilege today. If you were really able to comprehend "history" you would know that you STILL benefit from "400" plus fucking years of African slavery and black vilification world wide. And it does not matter where or when you were born on this earth. I am way too drained to get into this tonight. Fucking gay racist. I am done with you.

rorysmomma said...

I am not negating anyone's suffering, and I am a compassionate person. I don't know how I would react if I were in a gay person's shoes. I can't imagine, but I also hope that the blame game just stops. Damn a defeat is a defeat. I would have been mad as hell if Barack had lost, and I would have been blaming ignorant ass white folk left and right, and they would have written me off as your typical angry nigger. No one in power would be blaming white folks. They would have said Barack is just inexperienced..

rorysmomma said...

thank you la incognita.

grinder said...

Fucking gay racist. I am done with you.

I think what you meant to say was fucking white motherfuckin cocksuckin queer, wasn't it? Come on, sing it out, 'cause I've heard it all before and then some. Trust me, there isn't a single thing you can call me that will shock me or cause me to hate myself, or to hate you. Time marches on.

And guess what? I didn't own anyone. I realize how bitterly that disappoints you, but it's a fact.

Jennifer said...

la~incognitaaaaa...

I just wanted to know if you opposed or supported equality for the LGBTQ community considering your statement earlier... maybe you missed my post.

But since you just said you can't stand non-blacks... I'm not interested anymore. Sounds like you're the one with the racist agenda.

Instead... I'll share this link with everybody. Funny shit.

http://www.236.com/news/2008/11/11/who_helped_obama_win_the_white_1_10200.php

grinder said...

Want to make me feel guilty for being white? I'll say the same thing to you that I'd say to some skinhead who wants me to be proud of being white: Don't hold your breath waiting.

La ~ Incognita said...

Jennifer, I feel gay people should marry each other. It also seems you read what you want to read. RIF. You are so looking for a reason...

Rorysmomma, did you check out that link from shady grady? well...

rorysmomma said...

No one is making you feel guilty for being white. You are however, quite blind if you think that just because you didn't own anyone, that your ancestors weren't responsible. I get blamed and compared to every ignorant black person in the world, and when I complain about it I get no sympathy. You on the other hand, don't see that you have ever benefitted from being white. We won't truly be equal, until the black guy, woman, or gay person that is your average joe and at the bottom of his class gets elected to potus. Barack being elected doesn't mean that blacks have arrived, it just means that we put a whole in that glass ceiling, not just a damn crack.

rorysmomma said...

I am not immune to the struggles of gay people. I truly sympathize. However, from a religious stand point I disagree. I wouldn't have voted on prop 8 at all.

grinder said...

You on the other hand, don't see that you have ever benefitted from being white.

Apparently, you've only read my comments in this thread, and have made some assumptions based on them, because that's not the case. I'm aware of the relative privileges involved. I was trying to make a narrower point, but I guess the level of mistrust here, at least among some people, is so high that it's impossible to do that. Pity.

rorysmomma said...

grinder, I am just expressing my opinion, and in case you haven't noticed, we all make assumptions. I don't mistrust you because I don't know you, I was just reading your discourse and giving my opinion. I have no problem with having a debate. That is what we are having.... Correct? You are the one saying that I want to make you feel guilty because you are white. I don't want you to feel guilty. I want you to see another's point of view. I see your point of view just fine. No you did not have slave. I get that. But you cannot negate my experiences because they question yours. I know that gays and lesbians are often treated as social and societal pariahs. I would be a fool not to notice it or acknowledge it. However, I never expected white folks (all white folks) to see what I see or relate to my experience because they are not me. I get asked stupid ass questions about my blackness. I have people make assumptions about my education level because I am black and speak with a southern accent. I get tired of the bullshit. I get tired of feeling marginalized, but I have never forgotten that I have a responsibility to try to combat those myths. No one owned my parents, I never share cropped, and a cross wasn't burned in my yard, but that does not mean that I have not experienced racism. As a matter of principal, I understand why the gay and lesbian community is angry, but I cannot allow myself to negate my religious side either. There is more than enough blame to go around. Blame all the people who voted against prop 8. Not just black people. White folks are not monolithic and neither are blacks.

Orchid said...

excellent response Rorysmomma. You quelled my frustration. I've been following this ummm...dialogue and it was starting to wear away at me as I read it. But yea, I'll dissolve into the shadows again.

grinder said...

You are the one saying that I want to make you feel guilty because you are white.

It wasn't you, it was la incognita who I was aiming that at. It so happened that your posting got in between by luck of the draw in cyberspace. I should have been clearer. Mea culpa.

I get asked stupid ass questions about my blackness.

As someone who's been asked a stupid-ass question or two in his time, I have a rule. If someone asks a stupid question in good faith, then I do my damnedest to stifle the impulse to laugh and just answer it. An honest question is a gift, and an act of faith and generosity. It is someone asking you to explain yourself, and telling you that they'll listen to the answer. Doesn't get much better than that.

I have people make assumptions about my education level because I am black and speak with a southern accent. I get tired of the bullshit.

This probably won't make you feel much better, but speaking accents are used to pigeonhole a whole lot of people. I'm an aficianado of regional accents, and I think that any accent that significantly departs from TV Newscaster Bland gets a penalty.

A specific example: I have a friend from the Boston area who put serious effort into reducing his Worcester ("WIS-tah") accent, to make himself more marketable to other white people in corporate America.

I understand why the gay and lesbian community is angry, but I cannot allow myself to negate my religious side either. There is more than enough blame to go around. Blame all the people who voted against prop 8. Not just black people. White folks are not monolithic and neither are blacks.

I'm not angry, anyway. I was hurt. You see, I think anger is the scab that forms on top of hurt. I think people walk around too scared to tell each other that they are hurt, because to admit that it to admit being vulnerable. In proud America, that equals weakness, and if there's one thing that Americans cannot stand it is weakness.

Well, screw that. The California vote was hurtful. Now, does it mean that I blame black people? For the 10th time in these various threads: I don't blame black people. See, I don't believe that I am somehow entitled to their support. But not being entitled doesn't prevent me from feeling hurt when I don't get it.

And yeah, I know that blacks aren't monolithic. In an earlier thread on this website, I had some long discussions on that point, about how, as I grew up, I had come to realize this through personal experience.

grinder said...

if you think that just because you didn't own anyone, that your ancestors weren't responsible

I'd like to point out something else. My ancestors didn't own anyone, either.

La ~ Incognita said...

"I'd like to point out something else. My ancestors didn't own anyone, either."

Damn. You almost had me until you made that last comment. (walking away shaking head).

grinder said...

Damn. You almost had me until you made that last comment. (walking away shaking head).

Are you pissed off at my grandparents, too? What, aren't they guilty enough for you? Well, you can at least comfort yourself with this: None of 'em were gay, at least so far as I know. They were just white, which is your book is a just a terrible, terrible thing.

Tell me, does that boulder on your shoulder ever get heavy?

junior from bermuda said...

here's my two cents:

systems of oppression (namely, white supremacy, capitalism, male supremacy, heterosexism) are ALWAYS interconnected, in much the same way as prison bars are connected to provide an impenetrable barrier to freedom for those unfortunate enough to find themselves incarcerated.

all of the above-named oppressive systems have three characteristics in common:
a) generalization - re: white supremacy, "Niggers are (fill in the damaging stereotype of your choosing).....the idea here is that the targeted group is framed as being homogeneous and that no diversity can be found therein;

b) dehumanization - very closely related to (a) re: sexism, "These bitches ain't nuthin! i find em, finger em, f**k em n forget em!!" the idea here is that you effectively remove the oppressed group from the protected space granted to the privileged group (in this case, men). the intention of the preceding stances is to set the stage for the lethal action to be taken in the final stage;

c) destruction - having been lumped together and ritualistically debased, the privileged group has all of its ideological weapons in place to explain away all manner of violence against the group identified as inferior in steps (a) and (b).

we see an outstanding example of this in that way that the western imperialist powers have chosen to blame Afrika for its suffering, while conveniently ignoring their active and continuing participation in the atrocities of colonialism, resource rape, relentless cultural propaganda and enforced cultural amnesia. upon this blood-spattered earth, one can erect the racist histiography (steps 'a' and 'b') that makes the movement toward violence against the oppressed group in question inevitable. it is also unsurprising that when the oppressed rally together to champion their right to exist, those whose sense of themselves is predicated upon the dehumanization of said oppressed group are passionate and vociferous in their condemnations.

this happened (and STILL happens) with women, poor people, peoples of colour and now gays and lesbians.

we are walking on dangerous ground when we begin to employ the ideological framework that made possible - and continues to make possible, i might add - the devastation of OUR Black present and the erasure of OUR Black tomorrows.

to put it bluntly, the minute we start to sound like racist white folks (using appeals to religion and natural order to justify our bigoted perspective), we are in effect sowing the seeds for the inevitable collapse of any united move to crush white supremacy. generalization, dehumanization and destruction - these are the tools of the oppressor.

leave his tools in his hands if you are truly serious about constructing a revolutionary and liberatory movement amongst Afrikans in america and beyond.

master's tools will NEVER dismantle master's house.....

Jennifer said...

la~incognita,

I'm so looking for what?

I'm not provoking you... dialogue (not debate) is a key to personal and communal growth.

Acknowledge the duplicity of your statement. RIF... what did I miss? You directly negated the "I don't care who wants to get married to who" (implying support of equality) by the "as long they don't have kids" (implying the exact opposite). So... again... what did I miss?

p.s.

Is it so hard to believe that some white kids are educated AND aware of their white privilege? Or do you corner the market?

p.s.s. ok... that last part was a little provocative.

La ~ Incognita said...

Jennifer

Please point exactly where I said "as long as they don't have kids". And don't think I didn't notice how you cut off and tried to twist that "non-blacks" statement I made. Something is wrong, maybe it's me, maybe it's you. But you really should sit back, read everything all over again, and you might see how it might appear differently. I must go to bed and sleep now, my contacts are killing.

And No, that does not mean I am going to send someone to kill people.

I realize the English language truly relies on the individual's ability to comprehend based on their own interpretation and possible pre-notions they harbor.

Jennifer said...

You said...

"And for the rest of you, If you can't find logical reasoning to build up your own argument, then don't blame and throw that f*ck on black people. I dare some of you inclined to go use the holocaust and see what happens. This crap has got to stop. I too wish you can go and marry who you want. It seems there is no line to be drawn, fine. Anything goes."

and then you said, "I personally don't have a problem with or care who people choose to marry (as long as it's not with children), just leave my black ancestral struggles out of it, and clean up the racism within the gay community before you point hypocritically fingers at black people."

Here's where I was (and I acknowledge that I mis-paraphrased your comment about "as long as it's not with children")... your refusal to allow for even the smallest comparison between the plight of black people and the plight of the LGBTQ community, in conjunction with the statement that "there is no line to be drawn, fine. Anything goes," (and maybe I misinterpreted your tone, but it came off as sarcastic) led me to conclude you weren't very sympathetic to the cause.

So when you said, "as long it's not with children," I was looking for clarification. As long as what's not with children? As long as gays don't have children? Or as long as people aren't marrying children?

And I wasn't trying to spin your "non-blacks" statement. You said, "one thing I can't stand is non-blacks - especially white people throwing around that guilty delusional white denial bullshit."

I haven't read ONE thing in your writings which leads me to conclude that you have any "inclusive" attitudes. Now, granted... I haven't read every single post you've ever left... but that's why I was looking for the clarification and trying to look past how pissed off you are about gay people "piggy-backing" the black experience.

Tammy said...

As a side note, Field, as big a following as you have now, you need to move to your own domain and implement message boards or something. These comment threads are damn hard to follow sometimes, especially when they get as big as this one. :)

And Incognita - I appreciate that we can at least have a dialogue and try to understand each other even if we do not always agree on everything. I do absolutely agree on the last thing you said last night. I can hide my flag, you cannot hide your skin. I thought about that too and I completely agree. For me. Meaning, I don't look 'gay' by most [read straight] people's definitions. But some people can't hide the gay either. No matter how hard they try, you just know they are gay. You know the one's I'm talking about. Don't lie. ;P

Rev. Bob said...

We need to keep an image in our minds: Karl Rove grinning.

I will not play Rove's game and bust up our alliances.

I'll play our game and bust up his alliances.

I'm really sorry for the anger of my LGBT friends directed toward Black people. I hoped we'd be better people. Sometimes people suck. Sometimes we can be wonderful. On the whole, I think doggiekind is better than humankind. But maybe we'll get smarter one day.

Geneva Girl said...

What's up with Jamaicans and homophobia? My Jamaican husband is open minded except about gays. We had a big old argument about Prop 8. He said that he would have abstained from voting because it wasn't even worth considering, the gay movement isn't analogous to the civil rights movement, etc., etc. I told him that he was an ignorant ass and to keep his prejudiced views to himself and not teach our daughter such hate. And, no, he didn't get any that night.

The Christian Progressive Liberal said...

Most of the comments I've seen here were encouraging because I've had arguments with those who tell me I'm not being Christian because I sided with those against Prop. 8 and then harassed with quotes from Scripture and even after I stated that I wanted to stop the discussion, the individual disrepected me and kept right on going, but the one thing they said that I believed disqualified them from their whole discourse was the following four words:

"I'M NOT A CHRISTIAN."

Yet the person condemned me because I wouldn't join that bandwagon. And Chica, I respect and admire your faith - just as my own faith won't allow me to be bigoted in my actions towards others.

I kept seeking a place to agree to disagree. The person attacking me wants me to change my screen name because they say I'm not a Christian because I can't co-sign with this Proposition.

Thanks for allowing me to vent.

Dark Moon said...

And I can see you probably will. But to speak for the entire gay community, well, sorry. You do not. Now, you can dismiss me out of hand - the same thing you claim I'm doing. So what makes you any better that you can play the dismissal game?

You are correct, we don’t agree on anything regarding this discussion and it will remain at an impasse as well as the fact the discussion has already run its course.

I will only say, you were the one who believed that the experiences of gay black men and women should be dismissed and that you felt that need with a great deal of contempt to sideline the very real fact that black gay men and women are discriminated within the LGBT community as well as the straight. Your dismissal and refusal to admit this debilitating bias is why many Black women left the feminists movement because of this same disregard and contempt of how their needs were willfully ignored.

In addition, it’s interesting the implication that gay men and women of all stripes supposedly has this unbreakable bond by virtue of being gay and that this cancels all the other identity markers that make a person who they are. If this was the case, then IR pairings among gay men and women should outstrip the single digit numbers of white and black unions in the straight world, but it doesn’t. I have been told by several gay black men, the insults the negative and debilitating sexual references that they are saddled within in the gay community, hardly the enlightened color blind society that you propose. Thus, I have every right to speak for a segment in the gay community whose voices are not heard. You take exception to that—again I don’t care. You aren’t helping them and obviously you don’t even hear their plaintive voices.

On another note, funny how the demographics in Arizona and Florida, in which Hispanics and White voters far outnumber blacks decision to uphold the gay marriage ban, did not receive the same scathing routing by the gay community and the press. Shouldn’t the Hispanics and Native Americans, who most likely voted for the ban and who are an oppressed minority been enlightened enough to vote against it? Why are Blacks held to a different standard when other groups are conveniently given a wide berth.

And lastly, my interests are to my community first. I don’t think trying to convince whites of their privilege and trying discuss how this effects Black Americans is productive or worthwhile, because based on the interchange it has been met with the usual oppression Olympics and for Blacks to just sit down shut up and kick away the victimization crutch. I will continue to support Black gay and women and their right to live a decent life, despite the difficulties of all communities and hopefully give them a platform that they can articulate their needs and desires.

Tammy said...

Oh, I don't think your issues should be sidelined, Dark Moon. Nor do I hold them in contempt. I continue to state that I think by continuing to fracture OUR community just further separates us. I still believe that and have not seen evidence to convince me differently. Yet. You continue to ignore my overall point on that, dismissing me, but that's fine. It's okay when you do it, I see. And nor do I think just by virtue of being gay we should all get along and share some bond. You and I are evidence of that. Just not gonna happen. There are some gay people I just flat don't like. You can put that implication in my mouth if you want to but I don't have to eat it.

So here's the thing. I read an interesting article last night by another black lesbian in the LA Times. She had much the same opinion that you do. That it's hard to convince the black community to support gay marriage as being important when they look at affluent white gays (who think they are discriminated against) and then look at the troubles within their own communities. And you know what? Yeah, I could see that point.

She pointed out what the white people leading the prop 8 movement did wrong and how white gays just didn't 'get it'. So, the whole time, I'm like, okay but what are your solutions? What do WE (not just white people) need to do next time? And what do white people, in her eyes, need to do better? That's what she didn't do.

But at least I didn't feel the venom coming off of her like I did you right off the bat. At least it wasn't implied that, because of the color of my skin, the fact that I HAVE been discriminated against, made to feel unsafe, made to feel ashamed of who I am, or made to envy my straight counterparts because I'll never have what they have, well, that shit doesn't matter because, guess what? I'm privileged.

And you're right. I have a few advantages that others have not had. But does that make the above not count?

And finally, you had a reason to approach me like you did. When I first read Field's post, I got a bit defensive which likely put you on the defensive. For that, I'm sorry. I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye. But I'm willing to listen to you. I just wish YOU could get past my skin. I don't know that you can.

grinder said...

On another note, funny how the demographics in Arizona and Florida, in which Hispanics and White voters far outnumber blacks decision to uphold the gay marriage ban, did not receive the same scathing routing by the gay community and the press.

California has always been the national trend setter. That's why its referendum got so much attention.

Michelle said...

404kim wrote: Interesting. This is something I never really thought of before tonight. Maybe there could be some sort of compromise - judges/the courts provide and honor civil unions between two people, regardless of sex and allow church's to provide and honor marriage between a man and woman.

For what it's worth (or not): I am a lesbian, as is my girlfriend, and we both strongly support this approach, and are not particularly interested in having the state offer us marriage.

We also recognize that there is a whole range of LGBT issues and marriage or civil unions is not the center for us.

But we have certainly noticed that the voices of people like us, who come from this perspective, are not the loudest ones in the public discussion.

west coast story said...

I voted against Prop 8 because it was just wrong but Mr/Ms Grinder is way out of line. If you are too afraid to go into black churches to work for support from the black clergy and their flock, then don't be surprised if they don't support you. I live in Oakland and work in SF. The No on Prop 8 campaign was a disaster. A month before election day, the press was filled with bickering among the Gay/Lesian community about the direction of the campaign. Their big issue was that not enough gay people appeared in the ads. That was one month before November 4.

I don't make apologies for black folks who voted against Prop 8 but black people make up 10% of the electorate which means that 7% of the total electorate voted for Prop 8. I am sick and tired of black people getting dumped on for everyone's failures. We are responsible for all the crime, the subprime implosion, and now we are responsible for the failure of Prop 8. This is a lot of claptrap.

A black lesbian named Jasmyne A Connick (hope I got that right) wrote a guest essay for the LA Times about Prop 8. She said that her community, the black community, was faced with high crime, high public school drop out rates, joblessness, poverty, and for that reason, gay marriage was pretty far down the list of her priorities. So where were the black/brown/yellow faces for gay marriage? I sure didn't seen any and I've not seen hardly any in all the demonstrations that have occurred in these parts.

You intentionally don't reach out to the black community, or any other communities, because you believe you would not be welcome, then you condemn that community when they don't support you. You need to work at this a little harder and reach out to more people. That the No on 8 campaign chose to go to the NAACP for support just shows how woefully out of touch the gay community is with black folks.

I think it is outrageous that this proposition passed. It's too bad the gay/lesbian community didn't put as much effort into defeating Prop 8 as they are now with trying to overturn it and by scapegoating black people. I still support gay marriage but I have to say, the way this community has behaved in the past week really tries my sense of fairness equity to the max.

Thankfully, I know a low of gay people who don't share this scapegoating attitude and many gays in these parts realize the campaign was not well organized.

I happen to believe any one who supports denying anyone civil rights is a bigot. You can hide behind your religion all you want but the same excuses were used to justify enslaving African people. I don't get being gay on a visceral level because I'm straight but I don't have to. I do get that people of the same sex can love one another and why anyone would deny them the right to be legally joined as a couple actually makes my kind of sick.

I am heartened that so many black poeple are as disgusted about the passage of Prop 8 as I am.

West Coast Story

grinder said...

I voted against Prop 8 because it was just wrong but Mr/Ms Grinder is way out of line. If you are too afraid to go into black churches to work for support from the black clergy and their flock, then don't be surprised if they don't support you.

I don't live in California, so I wasn't part of it. But if you're using "you," in the generic sense, then I agree with your point. I have to ask: When did I suggest otherwise?

he No on Prop 8 campaign was a disaster. A month before election day, the press was filled with bickering among the Gay/Lesian community about the direction of the campaign. Their big issue was that not enough gay people appeared in the ads. That was one month before November 4.

I've rarely been too satisfied with gay political efforts. Always too many chiefs and not enough Indians, plus the chiefs are often smug and insular.

Trust me, that problem didn't start with Prop 8. You should have seen how badly they screwed up the 1993 March on Washington and the lobbying against Don't Ask/Don't Tell. That one makes what I've read about No on 8 look like a Swiss watch by comparison.

An example: They had gay veterans begging to testify in congressional hearings, but the (civilian) leaders of the gay lobbies insisted on giving the testimony themselves. Arrrrgh! So, please do NOT interpret anything I have written here as an expression of satisfaction with No on 8. Even though I wasn't in CA, I can readily believe that it was a total clusterf**k of an effort.

I am sick and tired of black people getting dumped on for everyone's failures. We are responsible for all the crime, the subprime implosion, and now we are responsible for the failure of Prop 8. This is a lot of claptrap.

I've gone out of my way here and elsewhere to say that I do NOT blame black people for Prop 8's passage. But the numbers appear to show that blacks gave heavy support to it, and I'm not inclined to run away from facts. I don't think any problem has ever been solved that way.

As for the financial meltdown, I am aware that some Republicans tried to blame the Community Reinvestment Act for the meltdown. That charge didn't stick, not even with the Republicans themselves.

Here is an excellent article about the financial crisis, by the way. My comments in the comment thread are under the moniker, BoyHowdy. Note that neither the article or any of the comments that I've seen, i.e., those up to #76, have blamed the CRA.

I don't get being gay on a visceral level because I'm straight but I don't have to. I do get that people of the same sex can love one another and why anyone would deny them the right to be legally joined as a couple actually makes my kind of sick.

You know, I don't require that people "get" being gay. I ask that they at least tolerate my tribe. Acceptance and understanding? Those are extras, and they happen one-on-one. It's the same with black people, I think. I don't need to "get" being black to be a good citizen, although to be a complete human being I think it's a good idea if I try to expand my field of vision over time.

But that really winds up being a matter of chance, need, mood, sunspots, moon phases, opportunity, timing ... you name it. In the meantime, I ought to try to at least adhere to a code of fairness, respect, and mercy, and the law. If people would do more of it all the way around, we'd be better off.

I am heartened that so many black poeple are as disgusted about the passage of Prop 8 as I am.

Same here. I recall seeing a documentary about gay rodeos. They interviewed people in Oklahoma, which over the years I have decided is generally the nastiest, most racist, most homophobic state in America. There was an anti-gay marriage referendum there, and of course it passed by 75%-25%, which is even greater than Prop 8's alleged support within CA's black community.

Guess what? They have gay rodeos in Oklahoma. Who knew? They interviewed some people there, and I was struck by a comment from one of them to the effect that they were blown away that a quarter of the people there had voted for gay marriage, and how much progress it represented.

So, if the exit polls are right and 30% of CA's black voters opposed Prop 8, then maybe next time we can see if we can get 40%. In the meantime, though, I do reserve the right to at least say that what happened was a kick in the gut, because that's what it was to me.

Tammy said...

West Coast said: I live in Oakland and work in SF. The No on Prop 8 campaign was a disaster. A month before election day, the press was filled with bickering among the Gay/Lesian community about the direction of the campaign. Their big issue was that not enough gay people appeared in the ads. That was one month before November 4.

Same as it ever was. If we can ever get our shit together and be together, we might just get somewhere. But unfortunately, just like Dark Moon mentioned in her last post, just because we are all gay, we are also all diverse and do not feel particularly indebted or bonded to each other as a community. At least not all the time. It's unfortunate because we are seeing what can happen in that case.

West coast, the article you mention is the same one I'm talking about in my previous post. It was a good article that really made me think. I just wish she had offered more suggestions on solutions as well as condemnations.

grinder said...

A black lesbian named Jasmyne A Connick (hope I got that right) wrote a guest essay for the LA Times about Prop 8.

I'm very aware of her article. I have been an active participant in the conversation thread on that one, using the same "grinder" name as I do here. Suffice to say that Jasmyne didn't earn a place on my Christmas card list. I'm not the only one; plenty of black people weren't too happy about some of what she wrote.

I know a low of gay people who don't share this scapegoating attitude and many gays in these parts realize the campaign was not well organized.

In the immediate aftermath of Prop 8's victory, a few white gays made some extraordinarily stupid outbursts, which were immediately condemned. They were hurting, but their response was unacceptable, to put it mildly.

No on 8 needs to take a hard look at its faults; in the engineering world, they call it "failure analysis," and it needs to take place here. Also we do ourselves no favors if we overlook rampant homophobia in the black community, which victimizes black gay people a lot more than it victimizes white gay people.

Problems don't get solved by hiding from them. Above all, it's critical that people keep talking to each other, even when (and maybe especially when) those conversations aren't very happy ones.

grinder said...

Oh, and we need to similarly look at racism within the gay community, which by the laws of statistics is three-quarters white. Just because people are gay doesn't mean they're not racist. I happen to think there's less racism among gays than there is in the general population, but it ain't all one happy family either.

west coast story said...

Grinder: I didn't want to be piling on but the racism in the mainstream (white) gay community comes up peridically in the press here. It is usually ugly when it surfaces.

There really needs to be more diversity represented in this issue because for a lot of black folks, this issue is about white folks. And that might sound narrow but if more people of color were to step up, and makes this an issus that crosses many different communities, there might be broader acceptance and support.
When I watch the coverage of the demonstrations on television, I don't see any black faces and maybe one Asian face and maybe one Latino face.

spooked said...

Wow, Field! You hit the nail on the head with this one!

I just read thru every single post here for the first time tonite, and all I can say is WOW!

I'm with the "stop trying to control others" and "keep church & state separate" crews.

I hate to say this, but I'll be so glad when the insurance industries (health/life/dental) figure out a way to profit from same-sex marriages -- and they WILL! They're working it out now -- so that this will no longer be a legal issue.

It's amazing how quickly corporate America can change the legal landscape once they start throwing money at it.

We'll look back 10yrs later and talk about how stupid it was that it took so long for the USA to finally accept & recognize same-sex marriages.

grinder said...

There really needs to be more diversity represented in this issue because for a lot of black folks, this issue is about white folks. And that might sound narrow but if more people of color were to step up, and makes this an issus that crosses many different communities, there might be broader acceptance and support.

I agree with you, and if you read my other comments on this blog you'll see that I don't just toss out agreement to placate. I'm perfectly willing to stick my neck out and disagree here. But on this, I agree with you.

As a white man who's been out and around as a gay man for 35 years, it has always bothered me that the so-called leadership of our community is heavily white.

It used to be worse, by the way. For the longest time, it was all white men. Now at least they've opened up to lesbians. Cold comfort, I realize. The next step needs to be more effort to get non-whites into the groups.

I can't say for sure on this, but I think it's possible that the pressure within the black community is so intense that there might be a shortage of black gay people who are willing to be uncloseted in leadership roles. I might be wrong about that, though. I mean, I'm just one guy and definitely not part of any leadership class.

Anonymous said...

"am from Jamaica, one of the most homophobic places on the planet, and my daddy was a preacher, so don't ask me how I got to this place, and developed this mindset"

seriously yaardie, how yuh reach dehso?

Anonymous said...

To the Proposition 8 opposers, what are your plans now? What lessons have the GLBT community learned? As an outsider after reading all this I suggest one of the first things to do is reach out to the non whites in your own comunity first since this is sees as a white gay issue. And to recognise due to the strong religious element you need to come froman argument of separation of church adn state. The state should not be promoting laws based on religious views should it? And I'm speaking as a fairly conservative Christian that even tho I lean more to the traditional Christian views of homosexuality recognise that its not the states business to promote that view.

Anonymous said...

Why is Jamaica so homophobic? Its not just a Jamaican thing, its a Caribbean thing. That part of the world has fairly conservative Christian views especially on sexual matters -Sure its hypocritical (having babies out of wedlock is not unusual over there -so adultery gets a pass) but why be flexbile when you can pick on the b---- man instead? (sarcasm)

Dee - of West Indian parentage

west coast story said...

Grinder: Well, we agree on that. I am no expert on this. I only khow what I see, read, and what people tell me. I am not inside the gay/lesbian community despite knowing and working with lots of gay/lesbians. Apparently, the initial trashing of pro Prop 8 black voters has been criticized inside the gay/lesbian community, so I am told today by a co-worker, by those who acknowledge the anti Prop 8 campaign was a mess. Apparently it didn't lack for funding, it was just a disorganized mess and that makes it even more sad.

It's up to the courts now. The Ninth Circuit will probably overturn it but if it goes to the Supremes, it's a lost cause.

field negro said...

"seriously yaardie, how yuh reach dehso?"

mi nu know star,a musi all di travel mi du an all di book dem wa mi read.

Anonymous said...

i think its fantastic you wrote this piece. right on!
one of the things its not hard to miss in jamaica is the complete hyprochrishy around the subject. its also just sad .people should just to free to be themselves.
ive been to many dancehall sessions where you hear the djs trashing gay people yet its not hard for me to imagine the same djs in another more open context trying to chat up the same people they are abusing.
hyprochrishy is certainly one of the hallmarks of the anglo saxon church and this hyprochisy and intolerance has spilled over too much of jamaica
even among rastas.
seen so many so calle conscious arists from yard
instead of chanting down bush or the war in iraq its just a tirade against gays
time for a change
cuz its sipple out deh
an anti authoritarian JAMAICAN

L'Tanga said...

Marriage equality for ALL.

grinder said...

It's up to the courts now. The Ninth Circuit will probably overturn it but if it goes to the Supremes, it's a lost cause.

I doubt this will go through the federal courts. Whether it will go through the state courts is another matter. The problem is that the Republicans are threatening to recall CA Supreme Court judges that overturn it.

grinder said...

Members of the Mormon Church provided the vast majority of the money on behalf of Prop 8.

I would love to know how much the Mormons gave directly to black churches, and where that money went. I have little doubt that the registered contributions were only part of the story here.

grinder said...

A gay leader writes about blacks, Mormons, and Prop 8.

Jennifer said...

an interesting discovery:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/3/15369/3779/711/651188

Anonymous said...

I am new to your fabulous blog and I had to leave some love for you on this topic! Any law that ELIMINATES a law-abiding citizen's right is wrong. It is NOT ok to have different laws for people who have done absolutely nothing wrong except fall in love. Black America knows better and they are hiding behind their bibles. As I always say, 'why shouldn't the gay community be allowed to be as miserable as the rest of the married folks?'. What are we protecting? Surely not the sanctity of marriage. Just look at some of our elected officials. Let's be real people!

Anonymous said...

Grinder wrote: I don't seek to deny the fact that some gays are racists, but I think there's less racism in the gay community than there is elsewhere. That's my observation over the years, anyway. Are things perfect? Hell no. But little by little, they have gotten better.

Since you’re white, how would you know “there’s less racism in the gay community than there is elsewhere” or that “they have gotten better”? The only people who are qualified to make such a judgement are GLBTQ people of color, since they are the ones who are on the receiving end of it. Too many white gays like to think of themselves as being less racist but as the irrational reactions to Prop’s 8 passing shows, that is just wishful thinking.

kat said...

The fact is Prop 8 passed and assigning blame doesn't help anybody. 30 states currently ban gay marriage so The question is what do you do now?

grinder said...

Since you’re white, how would you know “there’s less racism in the gay community than there is elsewhere” or that “they have gotten better”?

Because I interact with a bunch of different segments. I think there's generally less racism among white gay people than among white straight people. I think things have gotten better because I've seen them get better. But who knows, maybe I'm seeing what I want to see.

The only people who are qualified to make such a judgement are GLBTQ people of color, since they are the ones who are on the receiving end of it.

I understand your point and in the sense that white people aren't the victims of white racism I agree with you. Yet I think there are things only white people see.

Too many white gays like to think of themselves as being less racist but as the irrational reactions to Prop’s 8 passing shows, that is just wishful thinking.

If you look at it in all-or-nothing terms, I suppose so. But that's not how I see it, and I don't think it's how the world actually works. This Saturday, there will be demonstrations all over the country against Prop 8. I'll be at one of them, and I'll let you know if it's an all-white event. I doubt it will be.

grinder said...

By the way, I had lunch with a friend today, a white guy who has long experience in various gay organizations. He told me that it has been difficult to find people of color to take visible leadership roles in gay groups.

Too much pressure from within their ethnic communities. Also, he said, there is generally less interest in political issues among black gays than there is among white gays. He attributed it to greater pressure from within the black community on black gays to remain closeted.

We both agreed that organizations need to do more to encourage blacks, Latinos, and Asians to assume leadership roles. It's not something you can just snap your fingers and do, but it's got to be done.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the response, Grinder. Actually, you're the first white gay man I've seen respond to that query in the last nine days without a defensive posture. I do believe it doesn't endear white gays to blacks (straight or gay) when they just throw out the "we're less racist than" line; it smacks of paternalism. It's as if no one can question them about racism because they are homosexual, i.e. "I'm a minority, too, so how could I be racist?" I'm white (and straight), but if I were black, I'd immediately be suspicious of such a claim. Just like when a white (usually straight) person says, "Some of my best friends are..."

It's true that there are things people of color don't hear/see that other whites do. However, it's been my experience that too many white people turn a blind eye to what they see or hear, which is why racism continues to thrive. How else does one explain no one questioning why the main architects of the No on Prop 8 campaign being white? It's one thing to argue that GLBTQ people of color feel pressure not to be involved in the gay rights fight because of pressure from their racial/ethnic communities; it's another to refuse their help because it doesn't align with your vision, which is what the white leaders of No on Prop 8 were accused of months ago. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the measure passed and that one of the groups they naively believed was already in their corner voted so heavily against it.

grinder said...

I do believe it doesn't endear white gays to blacks (straight or gay) when they just throw out the "we're less racist than" line; it smacks of paternalism. It's as if no one can question them about racism because they are homosexual, i.e. "I'm a minority, too, so how could I be racist?" I'm white (and straight), but if I were black, I'd immediately be suspicious of such a claim. Just like when a white (usually straight) person says, "Some of my best friends are..."

Yeah, I guess you've got a point there. I just think I've seen more openness to black people among gays, but I can understand that it's not believable.

How else does one explain no one questioning why the main architects of the No on Prop 8 campaign being white? It's one thing to argue that GLBTQ people of color feel pressure not to be involved in the gay rights fight because of pressure from their racial/ethnic communities; it's another to refuse their help because it doesn't align with your vision, which is what the white leaders of No on Prop 8 were accused of months ago. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the measure passed and that one of the groups they naively believed was already in their corner voted so heavily against it.

My lunch companion, who will forget more about gay organizations than I will ever know, thinks that No on 8 never thought they'd lose and were just blindsided. I didn't specifically ask him what they assumed about the black vote, but the sense I got was that No on 8 figured it would be a liberal year in general.

In a way, they were right. After all, the margin went from 24 points to 4 points. Unfortunately, not from 24 points to, say, -4 points. To me, it's a wake-up call to the need to broaden the gay leadership ranks.

But I think it's worth mentioning that white people in the leadership ranks have given more thought than you might imagine to that issue. This guy basically said to me: "It's a great idea, but you literally can't find them."

He said that, as far as blacks in the gay community go, it's almost as if the last 20 or 30 years didn't happen. Socially speaking, he said, black gays are in the 1970s, when the gay community in general had relatively little political consciousness outside of a few places.

This isn't someone who wants to keep anyone out. Other way around. He wants more people in. He says he can't find them, and I'm inclined to believe it. As I've said in other postings, I'm really not a publicly political person myself on gay issues. I'm going to attend a protest on Prop 8 this weekend, and it'll be the first time I did something like that for 15 years.

The thing about gay people is that our political activism tends to be ad hoc. Not enough continuing effort. And, you know, as a middle-aged white man I'm not what these groups need anyway. I guess I'd say that it's pretty easy to stand back after the fact and throw rocks at those who got into the fight. I feel a little sheepish about going to a protest on Saturday, but I'm going to do it because I think people ought to.

The article by Jasmyne Cannick bothered me a lot. Her criticisms of tactics were fine, but when she called marriage a white gay luxury she really lost me, and I'm not too sympathetic to her point that gays have insufficiently supported economic justice issues affecting the black community.

In fact, if you look at the statistics from Massachusetts, lesbians are four times as likely as gay males to want to get a same-sex marriage, so when Cannick wrote what she did, she was dumping not just on gay people in general but on lesbians in particular. I'm a gay male, but I think of freedom as indivisible so I was appalled at her betrayal.

And when she bashed gay people on economic justice issues, she conveniently ignored the fact that the white Mormons and megachurches that provided essentially all of the funding for Yes on 8 have never lifted a finger on those issues.

I think what really went on with Jasmyne Cannick is that she canvassed in South Central L.A. on voter registration drives, and while doing so she was too cowardly to mention Prop. 8 because she was scared of what other black people would say to her. Rather than admit her fear, she turned around after the fact and twisted the knife in a column in the L.A. Times.

Thankfully, there are other black people with more guts. There will be another Prop 8, and I think next time around the gay organizations will have learned their lesson and will be more inclusive, no matter what it takes.

west coast story said...

Grinder Said:

"I think what really went on with Jasmyne Cannick is that she canvassed in South Central L.A. on voter registration drives, and while doing so she was too cowardly to mention Prop. 8 because she was scared of what other black people would say to her. Rather than admit her fear, she turned around after the fact and twisted the knife in a column in the L.A. Times."


What Anonymous 10:35pm Said

"It's true that there are things people of color don't hear/see that other whites do. However, it's been my experience that too many white people turn a blind eye to what they see or hear, which is why racism continues to thrive. How else does one explain no one questioning why the main architects of the No on Prop 8 campaign being white? It's one thing to argue that GLBTQ people of color feel pressure not to be involved in the gay rights fight because of pressure from their racial/ethnic communities; it's another to refuse their help because it doesn't align with your vision, which is what the white leaders of No on Prop 8 were accused of months ago. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the measure passed and that one of the groups they naively believed was already in their corner voted so heavily against it."

What West Coast Story Says:

Grinder is just wrong. And Anonymous got it right. The level of exclusivity that exists among mainstream (white) GLTBQ is not a figment of anyone's imagination. As I said earlier, mainstream gays did not approach the black and brown communitites about Prop 8 and now blame them for its success.

Jasmyne apparently sees more acceptance for who she is among even the most intolerant black people than she does among white people in the GLTBQ community. It is presumptuous of you to simply assume otherwise and create a whole new script out of thin air.

I would still vote against Prop 8 today but I am not at all too thrilled with what has been coming from the GLTBQ community after what can only be characterized as a DISASTROUS No on Prop 8 campaign that was organized by and carried out by white people who failed miserably and have decided to hold black people responsible.

grinder said...

We'll just have to disagree about Jasmyne Cannick.

grinder said...

By the way, I don't think Cannick "sees moer acceptance for who she is among even the most intolerance black people." I think the reality is that she was afraid to raise the subject when she was canvassing in South Central.

grinder said...

More thing about Jasmyne Cannick. She has directly declared her racism on her website. I'm no longer going to post there, nor will I discuss her here or anywhere else. The woman is dead to me.

Anonymous said...

This is kind of off-topic, but somewhat relevant. In Iran homosexuality is punishable by death, but sex-change operations are legal.
"Ayatollah Khomeini issued a fatwa (religious edict) making sex change permissible for diagnosed transsexuals" (from www.belikeothers.com). This is documented in the Iranian film "Be Like Others." I saw it earlier this year at a film festival, and it's truly thought-provoking, especially when considering bean twn chic's statement: "I never understand the argument, if the speed limit is posted for 65 mph and I drive 75mph I am breaking the law and will get fined. But when it comes to the Creator's laws we can pick and choose and he will give us a pass even when we break them, huh?" Islamic clerics in Iran use the "Creator's laws" as presented in the Qur'an to sanction sex-change operations (for men and women, though only male-to-female transgendered people are featured in the documentary). Scriptures and holy writings are "laws" for maintaining the social order, consequently they are subject to individual and societal interpretation. They are not natural laws. (Hmmm...that's a bold statement coming from someone as ambivalent and non-committal as I am.)

Anonymous said...

Grinder wrote: He said that, as far as blacks in the gay community go, it's almost as if the last 20 or 30 years didn't happen. Socially speaking, he said, black gays are in the 1970s, when the gay community in general had relatively little political consciousness outside of a few places.
This isn't someone who wants to keep anyone out. Other way around. He wants more people in. He says he can't find them, and I'm inclined to believe it.

1 - I'd be more inclined to believe those people of color who are gay and lesbian (even someone like Cannick) who continue to say their opinions and voices are not respected or sought out.

2 - Working in the engineering world for 20 years, I've often heard the "we can't find any" line when it comes to recruiting people of color. I just don't think your friend has been looking in the right places. Could it be that his very curious views about black gay and lesbian activism have clouded his judgement as to who would make a good advocate? Could it be, as some black gays and lesbians have stated over the past week and a half, that white gays expect them to be "gay first, black second"?

I do appreciate the dialogue but wish there were GLBTQ people of color involved in it. We're very much on the outside looking in!

West Coast Story wrote: The level of exclusivity that exists among mainstream (white) GLTBQ is not a figment of anyone's imagination. As I said earlier, mainstream gays did not approach the black and brown communitites about Prop 8 and now blame them for its success.

I agree. The question is whether the (white) leaders will heed the call.

grinder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grinder said...

anon 1:03 a.m., I can readily believe that the voices of non-whites have been given short shrift within gay organizations. You don't know me, and you don't know my friend, and therefore I don't blame you for being skeptical. Moreover, I didn't mean to present what he said as any kind of gospel truth, but rather as a voice of experience.

I'm going to attend a rally against Prop 8 today. You might think: A lot of good it'll do. To which I'd respond: Yeah, but I hope a lot of people show up anyway. It will be interesting to see. It's the first rally I've attended for 15 years, and only the second in my life.

Anyway, one of the things I intend to do is find as many non-white people there and talk to them about these issues and listen to what they have to say. I am very interested. As for Cannick, I do need to say one other thing. She's not just a racist, she's a liar.

When she wrote that 99% of her white feedback had been negative, I could imagine that being true. But when she wrote that 99% of her black feedback had been positive, I flatly don't believe it. When I was participating on her website, she got PLENTY of criticism from black people. Cannick isn't just a racist, she's also a lying coward. They come in all colors and sexual orientations.

grinder said...

Here is an interesting story about the Mormon role. This isn't exactly new news to me, and it is one of the reasons why I've been disinclined to pounce on the vote totals and use them to "blame black people" for Prop 8's passage.

In some ways, black people were a conduit for Mormon influence and money. That said, not even the Mormons can force 70% of any group to vote the way they want them to. It takes two to tango. And that said, I absolutely agree that No On 8 didn't do enough among black people.

It's not a simple story, but it's one whose elements need to be recognized and confronted -- ALL of them -- even if it's not too comfortable to do so. No one ever made progress by hiding from problems.

Dark Moon said...

And you're right. I have a few advantages that others have not had. But does that make the above not count?

And finally, you had a reason to approach me like you did. When I first read Field's post, I got a bit defensive which likely put you on the defensive. For that, I'm sorry. I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye. But I'm willing to listen to you. I just wish YOU could get past my skin. I don't know that you can.


Coming in late—didn’t realize you responded back.

As I said, discrimination in the gay community is real even though you don’t believe it—thus LGBT has always been largely fractured, with whites at the top and people of color at the bottom. I recall black men telling me how they were not allowed to go into certain gay clubs because they were black. Also when you look at the advertising in magazines and shows that are specifically gay friendly, very rarely will you see black or other people of color in a normal and meaniningful way. In addition, I live in a gay friendly destination, and once again, very rarely do I see other People of Color at these establishments as guests other than as the help or to hustle.

If you want inclusiveness in the gay community, you will have to accept the fact that many gay blacks identify with race first before their sexual orientation because that is what most people in the straight and gay world see first and thus they are going to be saddled with racial concerns that often times takes precedence over sexual politics. As you can see from the Obama win, despite the fact that he won, there have been gun sale increases, the hate and disgust with cross burnings, racial slurs, and effigies abound. And even though this is happening in Palin Country, these displays of hate are also in people’s neighborhoods and universities-the supposed bastion of critical thinking. You will have to accept the fact that many gay white men and women have mastered economic success and or are for the most part living comfortable lives because they do benefit by default from white privilege, thus gay marriage holds a lot less priority for some Blacks who are dealing with survival issues as noted before. And frankly, even though I do not oppose gay marriage or gay adoption—I welcome it, I honestly care more about gay black men and women and how their basic needs are being willfully ignored as opposed to who is banning gay marriage.

Lastly, in my previous post that field mentioned I took great pains to underscore the homophobia that is present in the Black community, however since homosexuality is a universal taboo in most cultures save Ancient Greece, why is it that Blacks are singled out as racist, when the majority of whites and Hispanics, and Native Americans et al, voted to ban gay marriage in over 30 states---shouldn’t they be called out on their hypocrisy as well? What about the Hispanics in California who also did not support gay marriage, their numbers were very high as was predictably Whites. To condemn Blacks as racist for voting on something that is bound up in religious dogma, is something that quite frankly, I cannot even adequately articulate my disgust and have nothing but antipathy (CNN, Sullivan, Savage, Olbermann crying) against the press and the gay community. As west coast mentioned, we are blamed for the bailout misery through sub-prime, we are blamed for high crime, low morals, bringing down the IQ curve, black women bringing down the Black family—thus to have this added bonus of eking blamed for not letting gays marry in California. For all of these reasons, I cannot relate to GLBT organizations, because it doesn’t represent people of color and after this debacle and this election, I find harder to relate to White people especially since I have never been given the benefit of the doubt.

Of course your apology is duly noted. I was angry at the way you came at me and even though we don’t agree on anything at this point, I do appreciate your honesty.

Mildred said...

The New York Times reported today that "Weird though it may be, gays were the sole minority group that actually voted slightly more Republican this year (though still going Democratic by 70 to 27 percent). Pitting blacks and Latinos against them could open up a whole new bloody front in the G.O.P. civil war." Let's not Prop 8 introduce a new southern strategy for the Republicans.

grinder said...

mildred, I've never thought that the sampling on the exit polls was precise enough to pick up a slight move. The only reason I've given the poll that showed blacks more supportive of Prop 8 than everyone else was that the numbers were VERY different. There was nothing at all "slight" about that result, and the general direction seems to be confirmed by anecdote and general observation.

That said, I think there is some constant percentage of gays who are Republicans. It makes intuitive sense to me. In fact, if the Republican would back off of their moralism on the subject I think they could fairly easily get half the gay vote if they wanted it. They're unlikely to ever get my vote because I'm solidly Democratic, but I can imagine others being more inclined to vote Republican because of their appeal to individual independence.

By the way, I went to one of those Prop 8 rallies yesterday. Second demonstration of my life. There were a few thousand people in Seattle. Like the city itself, the crowd was overwhelmingly white. I saw a fair number of Asians and some blacks and some Latinos, but not very many. There was a fair number of straight people there who were marching for our rights, which is something that never fails to amaze me.

I had wanted to ask these people about the leadership of gay organizations, but it was too awkward for me to just walk up to folks and start that conversation so I didn't. The first speaker at the rally was Ron Sims, a black man who was the King County executive, i.e., a position roughly equivalent to being the mayor of the county. He ran for governor a few years back, but his candidacy didn't get anywhere because he was a supporter of a state income tax, which in WA is a political kiss of death.

Anonymous said...

Because I won't let it rest:

Myths about black voters and Prop.8

grinder said...

anon 1:24, the link to the Daily Kos posting seems to make the rounds all the time, but unfortunately the math simply isn't accurate. Here is a thorough analysis of the math.

Anonymous said...

I will not speak on the Quran, but the THING is, one could argue that God took issue with Sodom and Gomorrah for other reasons besides or at least beyond homosexuality!
After all, according to the GOOD BOOK, Bean Twn Chica, it says in Ezekiel 16:49:

Now THIS(my emphasis) was the sin of your sister Sodom:She and her daughters were arrogant,overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me.

So much for the focus solely on homosexuality mostly or maybe if at all. In defense of you, I do not accuse the supporters of being necessarily racist. But it sure smacks of homophobic bigotry any way you put it regardless of whether it is racist or not. As for criticizing adults for doing stuff grown folks do, in light of the fact that many of the people haranguing gays about their sexual dalliances have been probably personally guilty of quite a few of their own-like fornication,adultery,incest,rape,beastiality and molestation-(all of which is condemned by the SAME BOOK) and in large numbers-it would behoove at least enough of them to consider that at least some of them are like the pot calling the kettle black-and in need of focusing on their own salvation with trembling! (After all,besides this smacks of hypocrisy and supporting double standards anyhow.)
Anyway, I think it fitting that Field Negro should note that the same people supporting black homophobes now, were the same ones that discriminated in the priesthood years back. I will also add both that the same institution, or at least the same religious zealot bigots that support this dumb, heinous,smug measure would have been the same types to have supported slavery in the past, all the time using the BIBLE as justification. So much for their ringing endorsement. In light of the fact that some of these same Sso-called "Christianfolks" who support this ignorant, BACK***WORD support the prop. and laws that make deportation of immigrant possible, the conventional religious support POV of your strange allies should be questioned in light of this too.

Anonymous said...

Grinder, not to take away the Native American's spot in the contender for the oppressor Olympics, they are in the running for first place in several events, but they have Wayne Newton,Buffy Sainte Marie,Vanessa Hudgens, Shar Jackson and at least one astronaut to boot. Don't sleep on Rudy Youngblood either, he could be the next best thing since Adam Beach and Lou Diamond Phillips. Take your pick if you so choose! Give them "some" agency in producing their share of famous people. If they are ignored, that is on us non-Native's, not them!They are there-we choose NOT to see them! But, I also take a small issue with the logic that our suffering should not be considered too much since the same people spewing this line about how the Native American's got it so much worse than blacks is just being delusional because they are just trying to absolve themselves. Also, if Native Americans rightly complained about something, then the line by the same said folks would be "but others have suffered besides Native people" to duck and dodge their gripes. It amazes me how the suffering of people is supposedly noble until they say something about it or speak truths that folks are hesitant to genuinely face. With that said, I CAN see why the gay community is now upset at the lack of black support for gay rights in light of our history and activism;you get no argument from me on this account. For that matter, I was NOT all that up in arms when the community teases blacks to some extent since we have been guilty of putting gays on blast in our media but gays made my annoyance run over with the Shirley Q. Liguor character. Blackface!Damn!Now that's where I drew the line-so to speak! Still, However, what passes for the mainstream gay community has been guilty of patronizing official and de-facto all white bars. I am also sure that LGBT folks today have their complaints with racism in the community.Finally in the same way that the Black support of this bill was noticeable, gay opposition to affirmative action was probably higher than it needed to be.

I will end on this though. Everybody needs to learn, respect, and fight for each others causes. The extent to which we neglect or support each determines how much we fail or succeed in gaining our rights. Do y'all understand what I am trying to say. The marginalization and the injustice folks face is wrong period if nothing else-whether POC or LGBT!

Anonymous said...

I wanted to apologize to the Latino community,for assuming bean town chica was Latino. You KNOW what they say abot assuming. When you assume, you make a donkey out of you. In this ,I sadly confess I am guilty as charged.

With that said, I want to clarify that I am annoyed with the implicit idea that blacks are the ONLY one that are suffering from dranking too much of the oppressors toxic koolaid!We just drank far more of our share then everyone else!When that is bull! The koolaid punch bowl ai 't nearly empty for nothing. In criticism of us though, some of us know that these facts don't exclude our reactionary complicity. In light of the facts, any bigotry on our behalf is counterproductive,especially when we support in high double-digits.

Moving along, in criticism of straight folks, if we hold marriage in such reverance, why are divorces and separation so prevalent among us-religious followers included-and I am referencing ALL of the religions-particularly Christian since that is the faith I grew up around.In light of this, besides the need for gays to assert their God-Given rights, I don't see where gays are missing much in terms of how they consider the sanctity of their union on stright people's terms; and I feel the opposition's opposition says more about non-gays than it does gays. Anyway, from where I stand, in light of the large epidemic of breakups-whether divorce/seperation from straights-we should spend the time we do condemning gays putting our own house/relationships in order.Maybe then, our rate would be lower.
Anyway, I could here the refrain now. Anonymous, gays have a high separation/divorce rate. They prolly do but they never set their type of relationships as the standard way to live or claim this idea of having al these great relationships. Straights do and persecute those that oppose this idea. This in spite of the fact that we don't have a good track record in terms of sustaining relationships-let alone good ones.

stephanie said...

i am so late, but check it out,

the gay thing is killing me. i have young kids. we ride public transportation. in the dc area we have ad with (implied) naked gays hugged up on our buses.

my kids should not have to see men hugging or kissing each other, women either. it's not natural, it's some kind of birth defect and glorifying it is only going to negatively impact our kids.

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