Sunday, May 25, 2008

We are civilized Xenophobes.

I think my twenty four hour ban from blogging is up. If it's not, it will just have to be a sofa night for the kid.

So anyway I was thinking; what does Waterloo, Iowa, and Johannesburg, South Africa, have in common? I will tell you what. In both places anti- immigration hysteria has raised its ugly xenophobic head. In both these places anti- immigrant sentiments that is counterproductive, uncivilized, and unwise has taken the place of reason, common sense, and just plain human decency.

In South Africa, native South Africans have been searching out and savagely beating and killing immigrants (mostly Mzambicans looking for work) who they believe are taking jobs and houses away from them. If you are a foreigner South Africa would not be a good place for you to be right about now. Poor President Mbeki, he had to call on his countries' army for the first time since the end of apartheid in 1994. That's some troubling shit, and it really makes me wonder about my people sometimes.

Here in A-merry-ca, spurred on by anti- immigration sentiments, and an administration that is concerned with scoring political points with the A-merry-ca first crowd, had three hundred hard working immigrants (mostly South Americans from Guatemala, and no Arabs the last time I checked) arrested in a meat packing plant. The U.S. attorney for Northern Iowa called the operation an "Astonishing success". I bet it was. Nothing like arresting a bunch of illegals and rounding them up and sending them back to their own country. Yeah those meat packing jobs are going to be taken really soon. And this is no ordinary immigration prosecution. usually these cases fall under civil statutes, but not this time. No, these criminals were dragged into federal court with both their hands and feet shackled (hey at least they weren't being beaten my mobs on the street. Here in A-merry-ca we are more civilized than that), and most entered guilty please admitting to using fake social security numbers. You would have to be a lawyer, or have some knowledge of the law to understand how outrageous this prosecution was, but take my word for it on this one. Due process? We don't need no "stinkin" due process. Prosecutors drove a hard bargain, and through their Spanish interpreters, most of the defendants pleaded guilty. Of course hardly any of them had criminal records, and I am pretty sure that none of them had been to an al Queda training camp anywhere.

Of course none of the Managers, or the company which they worked for, Agriprocessors, were charged with any crimes. This is the same plant that had workers working fourteen hours a day and overnight shifts without any pay a few years ago. But we always have to protect our corporate interests here in A-merry-ca now don't we.

Now I know some of my African A-merry-can brothers and sisters will disagree with me on this one. Like their brothers in South Africa, some of them have some real issues with these immigrants coming and taking our jobs. (Yeah I feel you, and I see all those brothers running to Northern Iowa to work in those meat plants.....)

Back in South Africa, Cape Town police spokesman, Andre Traut, said that about 200 people have been arrested, and about 1,200 people mostly foreigners have been displaced. We also know that there has been over fifty deaths as well. Over sixteen thousand Mozambicans have already fled the anti- foreigner violence in South Africa, and neighboring African countries are making plans to get their citizens out of there.

Of course here in A-merry-ca we are way too civilized for the type of stuff that we have been seeing in Africa. We have our government to do such things for us. By the people and for the people right?


CoyoteFe said...

Yes - You cut your sentence fairly close ...
The thing I always find interesting and disheartening is how willing those who have been persecuted in the past are willing to mistreat others. The moment some gain enough power, they wield the hammer. We have short memories, and our empathy gets tossed the minute our self-interest is at all tweaked. Sad ...

Anonymous said...

Increasing the number of guest workers is the way to go in my opinion. No one is against immigration as far as I can tell, they just want it to be legal. Doesn't matter what I think I guess. Obama and McCain are both for amnesty for people here illegally. We should all strive to be better citizens which is a requirement for citizenship at least in letters.

Anonymous said...

Guest worker my ass! If you risked life and limb to get here you should be able to seek citizenship. I'd be living in the UK right now if all it took was a plane ride and some paperwork! Those meat packing plants not only violate labor laws but do you see how the treat and kill the animals? I watched Fast Food Nation. Yuck! Almost got me off meat for good, but I know the agriculture industry is just as bad with e coli in the spinach. The companies are supposed to be prosecuted but as we see under the Bush administration no such thing occurs.

west coast story said...

I'm with you FN on this. The worst is when minor children are separated from their parents. A few weeks ago, the rumor spread like wildfire in Oakland that ICE was rounding people up at public schools. Mayor Dellums went out to schools to quell the rumors so kids would come back to school.

The employers should get hammered if anyone should.

field negro said...

I always fight with people I usually agree with on this issue. Of course I am damn near an open borders advocate, so my position on this issue is considered extreme. But I know folks try to make some reasonable arguments on the other side that has nothing to do with xenophobia, and them, I respect. But some of these other folks....

field negro said...

And yes coyotefe I did cut it pretty close:)

Anonymous said...

heartandflowers, the southern border of Mexico is much more difficult. The Mexicans don't want illegal immigrants either. The Hondurans passing through Mexico to the USA are raped and stolen from if they make past the first hurdle. A better guest worker program and encouraging economic growth down there is the only fix IMHO. I've bought cheese that was made there two weeks ago, Have you?

Anonymous said...

From the New York Times article:

"The unusually swift proceedings, in which 297 immigrants pleaded guilty and were sentenced in four days were criticized by criminal defense lawyers, who warned of violations of due process."

"All but a handful of the workers here had no criminal record, court documents showed."

"If the immigrants did not plead guilty, Mr. Dummermuth said he would try them on felony identity theft charges that carry a mandatory two-year minimum jail sentence."
This sets such a dangerous precedent! I want my country back!!! You know... the one that pretended that due process and the constitution mattered...... sometimes... I know, I know, there has yet to be justice for all in the criminal system... but this is really quite a few steps backward.

That DA is a BASTARD!

Grata said...

This South African reaction is not a surprise for Africans. There have been warning signs for years. Especially with the ANC failing with social programs for the now free blacks. Its was inevitable that they would scape goat foreigners. I have professional friends who left SA who saw this coming. They were targeted as long as 10 years ago.

As for immigration, they have to find a way of making these people legal so they can also follow the same rules. In my first odd jobs in America working mostly in California, I got the worst discrimination from these immigrants. They consider these jobs their own and will frustrate anyone unlike them. Yes, AAs may not be running for those jobs but there are immigrants of other backgrounds that are frustrated by these same South American immigrants. In my experience Africans do get alot of this. They need to be held accountable too for their actions. One should not automatically assume that they are victims by default. You have to look closely at the clashes between blacks and hispanics in Californian schools and jails to see that there is potentially explosive situation there.

Anonymous said...

I'll keep this short. I hope you know how to speak Spanish. You sir have become the "house negro" for the Mexican Lobby. Who is moving into "tha hood" and opening up stores because it damm sure an't black folks. Oh well, maybe President Obama can take your guns away to Philly Criminals can really run amok. Wait if Obama is president, who do you blame then... Mayor Nutter, Gov Fast Eddy Rendal and the great Ronald Reagan is kicking JFK's ass in pin pong right now so who do you blame?

p.s. How many SUV owners supports Obama?

baatin. said...

christ! dunno about the rant above (jibreel), field. anyways, i think most of the immigrants into SA that people are fighting about are from zimbabwe. i know the shits been off the hook for a while, but i really think mugabe's forced his citizens to go there, and thabo, while he's been kinda ok, has still fucked up what was a fairly good system in SA. just sayin.'

Steve Hayes said...

Who banned you? How? And why?

Interesting post, though. People here act like our xenophobia is unique, and say what about the World Cup in 2010? But they said exactly the same thing about Germany last time round, because of all the xenophobic violence there.

Anonymous said...

I see your point. I really do.
However, being a Texas girl, and seeing how the broken immigration system is impacting our social service, education, criminal justice, and medical services systems in Texas, I'm a whole lot less tolerant than you are. And no, I don't blame the immigrants. I blame the American government for not dealing with the slave drivers that hire them. And I'm also pissed off at the Mexican government for not dealing with this problem like a responsible government should. But why should the Mexican government deal with this. Many of the dollars that the immigrants earn, they ship it back to Mexico, keeping their broken economy afloat.
Plus Field, I guess I could be a whole lot more willing to join hands with our brown brothers and sisters and fight the injustice that the governments are doing to them and us. But guess what... The climate between black folk and brown folk in Texas and Cali is worlds different than it is on the right coast.
Many of these immigrants, with all their challenges, think they are better than black folks. They are not interested at all in joining hands with us. I'm not telling you what I think. I'm telling you what I know.
Many of these immigrants here in Texas only want to identify with black folks whenit is time to quote our struggle to find equal rights. Otherwise, they would much rather identify and hold hands with the very one that wishes to enslave and deport them, the whites.
You saw this during the Texas Democratic Primary. Many Mexican Americans made it abundantly clear that they were not going to support black ass Obama. Instead, they wrapped their arms around Klanton, who really does not give a damn about their brown struggles.

One more thing... Last year when my sister graduated from college, the graduation speaker gave all the graduates spanish/english dictionaries. She told them that if they wanted to be great Americans, they should learn spanish.
Well, that pissed me off. Why in the hell do we have to bend over backwards to learn their language. Ain't nobody interested in learning the languages of other immigrants. When Africans come here, nobody, and I mean nobody feel that they should be offered bilingual education. When the Chinese move here to the US, people are not making special accommodations for their language preferences.
Just an observation... I may be wrong.
Plus, it really bothers me when many of the social service and education jobs in Houston are looking for someone that is bilingual. So Field, these immigrants are not just getting the lawn mowing, meat packing, housing construction jobs. They, even the ones that have illegal social security cards, are getting the professional jobs.

I'm not as elloquent as Rikyrah on this subject. But I pretty much agree with her. I've always co-signed her comments. So, when she comes and puts it down over here, just know that I agree with her.

Christopher said...

I hope this isn't the beginning of the end of the Rainbow Nation.

One of the many cool things about post-Apartheid South Africa is its Constitution. This document puts ours to shame by comparison.

President Mbeki. The media in Joburg, Cape Town and Pretoria have all asked the same question: "Where is our president?" Noticeably slow to speak and even slower to act, the people of South Africa are afraid.

Anonymous said...

The lady on Ellis Island has a big tear in her eye.

Kellybelle said...

Field, about your sidebar: I heard about the death of Charles Gooden Jr on the news, but I did not hear about the gruesome details. That is just a shame.

field negro said...

"I hope you know how to speak Spanish.."

yo hablo un poco espanol. Pero hablos ingles muy bien.

And I can smell a xenophone from way over here in Philly :)

"You sir have become the "house negro" for the Mexican Lobby. Who is moving into "tha hood" and opening up stores because it damm sure an't black folks"

So who is stopping you? Oh wait, I get it. We can't open stores because we are afraid of the criminals with their guns. Right?


steve hayes, let's just say that ban was put on by a very powerful person.

Anonymous said...

I agree with you, Angie. I lived in Central America (legally) for a few years, and was regularly refused accommodation in hotels, restaurants, and other public places. I was referred to as "Morena" when they liked me, and "Negrita" if they didn't. My real name never really caught on, because black people are referred to, almost always, by their race.
Here in Harlem, there are literally thousands of people who have been fighting to get into construction. They are now totally blocked. All Spanish-speaking crews, with no OSHA standards, and a lotta racism.
This country owes the rest of the Americas a lot. But we do not owe the immigrant pre-whites our public schools, jobs, and the notion that they are inherently better than us.
It really irked me that they had the nerve to bring up the Civil Rights struggle, when they carry (and carried) the same policies against black people in their homelands.
It's not cut and dried, fo' sho.

Anonymous said...

What I find sort of interesting in contrast to this "illegal immigration raid" is a seemingly insignificant story that comes out of the wealthy Hamptons enclave in Eastern Long Island, New York.

Apparently, the Hamptons police busted a fucking art gallery cocktail party yesterday for serving cheap-ass box-wine without a "license" or whatthefuckever. Think about it for a moment. Working-class cops busting the rich motherfuckers who pay their salaries for having a fucking cocktail party. Why is this happening?

Could it be because the right-wing lunatic oligarchs overreached in their insane greedy redistribution of welath upwards in society? So we now have the spectacle of the police state continuing to scapegoat some poor-ass Guatemalans for the shitcanning of the middle-class. But at least some of the shitcanned middle-class--including these Hamptons cops--is starting to figure out that it ain't some broken-down poor-ass Guatemalan meatpackers that have fucked them in the ass. It's those rich-ass motherfuckers swilling cheap-ass wine in the Hamptons.

Can you say "class war"!?

Anonymous said...

I've been wrestling recently with the notion that it is the human condition to oppress. Even in little bits. We pick on the kid at the school yard that's just a little different. We don't date the girl with the wandering eye. We blame the immigrants for our job loss. We notice and accentuate what's different. It takes a special individual in this world to not lump people into classes or groups by social status, racial make-up, ethnicity. I'm not sure why we insist on doing it in the first place.

I've been railing on outsourcing for quite a while, as the type of work I do is being outsourced to India. I don't hate the people of India, I hate the corporation that won't employ an American worker but will take an American dollar for that work. And the height of self loathing would be the people who's jobs have been outsourced who continue to buy products that are made by companies that outsource American jobs.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, Field, cannot totally concur on this one...spend some real time in L.A., and try to get a more complete perspective...The Black vs. Brown War here is real, and while I do agree that employers bear the most responsibility, and should be prosecuted before workers, So. Cal. simply can't support an infinite influx of immigrants...the problem is complex, and the polariztion of arguments (i.e., characterizing anyone who is not open border as racist) is not helpful to any real, workable long tern solution.

Anonymous said...

Wow...Two comments resonate: Immigrants in America; outsourcing jobs.
In re 'Angie'and 'names4things': Because we live in a (corporate/cottage-industry)profit driven culture, I'm afraid we will have suck it up and accept the realities of legal/illegal immigrants occupying low-paying, non-union jobs. It seems that most Americans are okay with the Spanish language replacing English (East coast people only have to go into a store in CA and have a clerk ask you, "No, habla espanol?" Or, be denied a professional position because you choose not to speak Spanish. The problem IS extremely complex and stuffed with emotions that are diametrically opposite at the same time. When you really do understand that "La familia" is paramount in Mexican culture + each child born here automatically becomes an American citizen eligible for ALL public services, you might begin to understand the growing anger and potentially explosive conflict on the horizon in parts of our Southwest and California regions. And then to watch and hear guilt-ridden, hand-wringing Negrophobes (Liberals?) cite "Civil rights", it ought to really piss you off. Once I step back from my righteous anger, I realize that the real culprit is - (ready?) - each of us that has ever eaten fresh produce, processed meat products; or enjoyed the fruits of non-union, underpaid labor here in A-merry-kkka. So, I'll shut up about that issue. Next, as a consumer, I am righteously indignant that I have to go out of my way NOT to purchase products/services that are produced or performed outside A-merry-kkka. Here, in central Georgia, you sometimes have to drive awhile in order to purchase products that are: Not made in China; or, support local growers/producers.
How many of us boycott the Wal-Mart/Costco/Dollar General stores of America? How many of us actually READ the labels on the products we purchase? I try to, but it takes up lots of time and energy. Which, in the final analysis, may be the bane of contemporary living - convenience and immediate gratification.
Thanks for the format.

Georgia "Flash"

Grata said...

"I'm telling you what I know.
Many of these immigrants here in Texas only want to identify with black folks whenit is time to quote our struggle to find equal rights".

And the classic example of this is the attempt to equate the phrase "illegal immigrant" with the N word. That has since failed.

Grata said...

"I hope this isn't the beginning of the end of the Rainbow Nation".

Sadly, I think it is. The majority of Black South Africans have not gained from the end of apartheid. This is an artificial system super imposed on people that don't have the capacity to sustain it. The high illiteracy rates mean that there is going to be a lot more lawlessness. After they chase after the immigrants they will be going after the Whites. Its just a matter of time. That is if AIDs doesn't finish them off first. Mbeki is as useless as they come.

field negro said...

"How many of us boycott the Wal-Mart/Costco/Dollar General stores of America? How many of us actually READ the labels on the products we purchase?"

Sorry Gerogia Flash, I don't see any hands. But that is the problem isn't it, walking the walk instead of just talking the talk. Here in A-merry-ca we are very good at the latter.

I do agree that depnding on where you live your position on this issue might be a little different. I live on the East Coast so I don't think the problem is as complex as in the Southwest or out West. Here our Latino population is made up of Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, and the assimilation has been easy.

The undocumented workers we have here work in ladnscaping and doing shit jobs in restaurans that no one else wants, so we tolerate them.

Anonymous said...

I think will have fine arguments to explain their xenophobia, and have a very difficult time being emphatic to another person's plight. People forgotten that California and Texas was once part of Mexico until the United States government decided to take over the those territories. I am going to say, but we are arrogant. We have the audacity as so-called black people to align our lives with the very white culture that did the same thing to us. Perhaps some of us remember share-cropping which is a variant of feudal system. The migrant system is slavery people. Cheap labor and isn't what makes America great. This country profits off the backs of the disenfranchise. And let's think about this, although, some the illegal immigrants had illegal social society numbers, we do not mention how they put $9bn into the fund, What happens to the money, since they cannot collect.

I also believe that there is nothing wrong with learning another language as other countries in the rest of the world teach another language. Learning a second language will improve your primary language. In addition, the learning Spanish and possibly Chinese will be another language to consider since we live in a global world, We are not the only people living in the world. And the truth be told, we are not going to work in meat-packing plants or pick oranges. We are not taking any medial jobs because we have become too Americanized and we are just too privileged to do it. You make not like the statement, but in some ways, it does ring true. I also believe that the company such suffer more penalty than the immigrants because the company is more familiar with the law, and know it's illegal to hire an illegal immigrant.

Anonymous said...

I don't believe ANYone should work without OSHA safety standards. We have had more deaths this year in construction so far, than before for the entire year. It's wrong and it's sad.
I don't believe Americans should be kept from jobs if they don't speak Spanish, because fat cat employers are happily exploiting workers who only speak Spanish.
I don't believe people should ignore racism, and perpetuate new hollow stereotypes about some people being hardworking while others inherently aren't, because those are malignant lies.
We can achieve the dream of a rainbow, but only if people un-ass their stereotypes. Period.
This so reminds me of that "deserving poor" phrase Bill Clinton began, with his war on the poor. I have yet to meet or know of any "deserving rich", and without breaking out all Marxist on anyone-- cuz that doesn't work either-- I say we round THEM up, take their stuff, redistribute it, and force them to speak Esperanto. While they grow our food.

Anonymous said...

People! the issue to me is what ICE and the DA did.... there is not due process.... this is the BEAD ROCK of our constitution. If the criminal system can treat these people this way, and there are not eyebrows raised, or it is excused, or accepted, then this leads to detentions of any of us... without due process..... held indefinitely. These people are the canary in the mine..... just as those at Guantanamo........

Yes, undocumented workers needed to be dealt with. Yes, we need a decent immigration program. Yes, we need to work with Mexico and other Latin American countries to promote economic stability so there is less need for folks to risk life and limb to come here.... I am not saying they should not be deported... What I AM saying is this behavior on the part of the criminal system should not be tolerated.

Anonymous said...

oops I meant "Bed Rock"... typo!

Anonymous said...

Field -- I heard that the immigrants got a shorter prison sentence if they cooperated with authorities to provide information to bring down the managers and/or the owners of the plant.

I'm tired of them coming after us Latinos, but I'm okay with it if they go after the companies and their management because you and I both know they don't have their hands clean in this mess.

Christopher Chambers said...

Field, you know where I stand on this. I'm friggin' Daniel Day Lewis in "Gangs of New York." I think we need MORE ICE raids, no due process...yeah show up in schools and moldy old school liberal like Dellums need to shut the hell up.

Fascist? Yeah, sometimes you need to make an example. Now, it's an empty gesture unless you hammer businesses, too (like construction and meatpacking) and now that the Bush Admin is on the wane ICE has a freer hand. So yeah, raid and deport, raid and deport. A message will be given.

FYI it's not just crazy in Cali and Texas-in the DC area we have half of El Salvador here and if you find 5 black folks who that's absolutely wonderful I'll pay for you gasoline...

Anonymous said...

Dear U.S. governement:

Thanks for the society which generally values law and order so much more than S. Africa. I'm so glad when I decided to look for better work I came here instead of there...

One thing though: I know your laws (and the citizen's respect the law) have kept me from being butchered in the street like an animal (like in S. Africa for example), but that's really all the use I have for your laws right now. Well, that's not quite true - I also like the fact I can send my kids to school without paying taxes, and get pretty damned good healthcare for free (thanks to you too emergency room), besides of course the work I am able to do here. I suppose it should be *literally clear as day* that the work I am doing here is better than that I can get at home. Yeah, maybe those White Liberals (and their ilk) bemoan my "slave driver" employer, but let me tell you, I left my family, friends, and my home to work this "shitty job". I'm thrilled to have it. Now it's far from perfect, but it's a start.

Anyway, back to my point. Is there any way you can send me a copy of your constitution or whatever it is that decides what is and is not legel, so that I can edit it to my benefit. I won't change much - Hell the reason I'm here at all is that I dig this place. I just want to be able to come as I please, meaning illegally (shrug). I know it undermines what I profess to like so much about America (e.g. the orderly and lawfull society thing), but don't hold my abject logical inconsistency against me... Let's pretend we're married and this is my celebrity "out".


Anonymous said...

You're correct...Not many of us REALLY walk our talk. There is an active informed community of consumers in the SF Bay Area. We continue to go out of our way, sometimes, to support "alternative" grocery stores, local "farmers' markets"; some have even formed consumer cooperatives. We are NOT xenophobes who have no empathies for un/documented immigrants.
Learning any second language does expand one's intellect and promotes the kind of 'critical' thinking that will be crucial as we engage this 21st century global community. Perhaps, hopefully, the current ongoing escalation in the cost of crude oil/petroleum products will force each of us to rethink and adapt our standard-of-living to this inevitable change. The piper's got to be paid. MLK once said that "...though the moral arc of the universe is wide, it ultimately bends toward justice..." The debts for the ethnic cleansing of native peoples here; the trans-Atlantic enslavement of our ancestors; and continued blatant abuses of power demand payment. I'm saddened that my grandchild will have to witness the payback.
Again, Field, thanks for this forum.

Georgia "Flash"

Anonymous said...

Immigrants pay taxes. Every time they buy something, they pay taxes. When they pay rent, they pay taxes. When they work, they pay taxes, but because often they are using "fake info" they do not get tax returns and they will never see that money in their retirement.

Immigrants are far less likely to seek medical attention, call the police, seek services because of their status.

The only place that immigrants are universally using services are schools for their children. Oh how friggin horrible... we are EDUCATING PEOPLE!

When we have spent, close to 524 BILLION dollars on this debacle in Iraq. When we live in an country with 5% owning over half the countries resources... I am not gonna engage in Immigrant Bashing... the newest distraction from what is really fucked up!

field negro said...

Georgia flash thanks for your contribution. Your post was quite eloquent

Jody, my Phillygirl, as usual you are on point, and I co-sign with you 100%.

Truth to power truth to power....

Anonymous said...

This is such a challenging multi-layered problem. The Mexican gov't is so corrupt [2006 fraudulent election] that it drives people to flee to the US. People die trying to get over here and I don't think they take it as a joke! Only recently has the situation with women being used by immigration officials for sex in exchange for papers been covered. Yes there are a lot of racist Mexicans. Yes the US gov't is just as corrupt. The Brown/Black "problem" is white supremacy but people get so easily distracted from the source of the problem seeing each other as competition that they'll fight each other. I would also say part of the reason why some Latinos see themselves as better than Blacks is due to way we let ourselves be treated. Do you think Asians see us any better? They may not be directly fighting us for the left-overs because they figured out a way to get over. Yes our ideals have to be matched by action. I don't shop the big box stores. If I have to I go to Target but at least I can stomach it because they give away $3 million/week for socially progressive initiatives. I can accept my standard of living may have to be lower in order to accommodate better treatment of other people in the world since we are a global society. But I think in some ways the quality of our lives would be better if we were more conscious of things. I'd love to have the 25 paid days off that Europeans enjoy, the child care of France, the mid-day Siestas of Spain just as I'm sure people in developing countries want basics like running water. I don't need an SUV or a 42-inch flat screen tv to be happy. Prop 98 is one ruling up for vote in CA June 3rd which would remove rent control and all of us poorer and elderly folks would find ourselves out on the street. There's a lot to be done - and a lot we can do!

Grata said...

"And the truth be told, we are not going to work in meat-packing plants or pick oranges. We are not taking any medial jobs because we have become too Americanized and we are just too privileged to do it. You make not like the statement, but in some ways, it does ring true".


I think the argument that no one wants those meat parking jobs is an old one. There are illegal immigrants in higher positions that have a culture of favoring their own. Retail is now hit in California. I have experienced discrimination from people in the retail industry, some of whom where later discovered to be illegal. So you can compare this to slavery or you want, but there are social problems growing out this phenomenon. I am for any kind of legalizing because it will make these people as accountable to discriminatory acts as everyone else.
They are not just victims. It turns out that in their illegal state, they are victimizers too. A far cry from slavey so please don't compare the two.

nyc/caribbean ragazza said...

This is a very complicated issue. I am the daughter of legal immigrants from the Caribbean. I never thought about a brown/black divide as I grew up (until we moved) with Puerto Rican, Cuban, Dominican, Jamaican, Trinidadian, etc. folks

I moved to L.A. and it was different story. I didn't/don't understand it. The school are jacked up and there are other issues to deal with but it's like there is a fight to the bottom of the barrel. The tension is real and I don't think it's going to get better.

We need to stop looking at this issues as a"wedge" issues and get serious. Corporate America esp. farming doesn't really want reform. It would be too costly.

I don't know what the answers are but we better figure it out soon.

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]Poor President Mbeki, he had to call on his countries' army for the first time since the end of apartheid in 1994. That's some troubling shit, and it really makes me wonder about my people sometimes.[/quote]


Your mis-analysis of this situation is STUNNING to me.

First of all - your boy Mbeki is in a "chickens coming home to roost" situation. The real problem here is ZIMBABWE. Mbeki is suffering from a lack of willingness to publicly chastise Mugabe for the policies that have caused a major exodus to South Africa and Botswana. You should try to get your hands on the Bill Moyers documentary about the immigration struggle between Zimbabwe and Botswana. (When the left wing Moyers picks up on this type of situation which is normally counter to his biases you know that the bad guy Mugabe is stinking up the place)

Secondly South Africa has a LIBERAL immigration policy. Any Zimbabwean who can make it from the northern city centers of their country down to the South African borders in order to find a better life does so. Of the 5 million immigrants in SA - Zimbabweans represent 3 million of them.

Fear not Field-Negro because this should tell you a lot about what we face as a nation. You see - if your analysis was spot on you would make note that it is the SOUTH AFRICAN "peasants" who are unskilled that are most at risk by having MORE unskilled workers pore into their nation and compete for jobs at the lower level. These are the people who are rioting.

You get it 100% WRONG in your comparison between the deportation efforts of the evil Bush Administration and the actions of the SA government. The SA government has done little to attempt to enforce any type of immigration policy. Again it is the desert conditions between population centers that is most responsible for not having EVEN MORE Zimbabweans come across the border to escape their failed country.

You and your fellow bloggers need to turn to Carol Swain - a professor at Vanderbilt University. She was on the "Tony Brown's Journal" show last weekend. She is a leading researcher on the impact of illegal immigration upon the Black worker. It ain't pretty!

Here is the problem Field Negro. Our Black leaders are "leftists". As such they are going to BLAME CORPORATIONS for "attracting illegals" so they can work in America. They are NEVER,NEVER,NEVER going to confront the INDIVIDUAL Mexican illegal immigrant, telling him to GO HOME. This would force the left wing politician to GO RIGHT and thus against his instincts. Instead he depends on the White Right wing to assume this position and thus be called a "racist".

As a result of all of this - the Black Community is made to SUFFER from the lack of leadership that is displayed by its elected representatives in the matter. As long as there is someone to BLAME (the corporations) they are contented with the erosion because they know that "the other guy did it".

You will one day learn, as the South Africans have seen that at some point there is a relatively limited set of jobs for you to fill with your current skill level. Beyond the THEORETICAL compassion that you have - you had better fight to defend the number of people bidding for these jobs.

One way to do this is to EDUCATE YOURSELF and move up above these unskilled jobs.

The best way that the GOD-vermit can limit the number of people bidding, however, is to at least enforce our border.

The time for your ability to point the finger is coming to an end Field-Negro/others. If you think that Obama is going to save the Black community when he couldn't even answer a direct question put to him by Wolf Blitzer about drivers licenses for illegals - you have a long, disappointing road ahead of you.

AQUILOGY said...

Actually the violence is occuring in the east-rands and not in Jo'burg, but that's beside the point. I have to say I felt ashamed, as a black South-African, when the Zimbabweans and Mozambicans where being killed shamelessly by fellow black africans. The racist colonialist must be happy about this, there strategy of divide and conquere is finally working( 200 years later) great post.

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]The racist colonialist must be happy about this, there strategy of divide and conquere is finally working( 200 years later) great post.[/quote]


This is the problem. Rather than referencing your views on what the WHITE SUPREMACIST colonizers MIGHT think of these brutal assaults it is a far better investment to work with BLACK AFRICANS to make sure that they live up to the particular standard of decency and RESPECT FOR OTHER HUMANS as they had asked others to respect them by.

The government of Zimbabwe needs to be put back into the hands of the people.

The ANC and Mbeki should be called out for being silent about what was going on and thus allowing what is happening now to foment. Clearly their liberal immigration policies must change.

Christopher Chambers said...

Field, the present situation sucks as much in the east as it does out west. As I said, Philly ain't the rest the of the country and you get Puerto Ricans behind closed doors and even they say damn! what it this stuff?
Immigration isn't a distraction issue. Indeed Bush and Mr Morton want MORE folk pouring into here. I think you're wrong being too soft on this, and it will backfire for us all...

Unknown said...

What ICE, did was enforce a law on identity theft. Unless of course you think that someone else using your SSN and DL# are ok? But hey the fact that you have problems w/ the government, doesn't mean you should let people break the law. Have you or someone close to you had your identity stolen? It is a real bitch to deal with!!

west coast story said...

When black people line up to pick strawberries in ninety degree heat, when black people get as hysterical about jobs outsourced to Asia, I MIGHT believe we care about this issue beyond raw, hypocritical, bigotry. SOME black people are every bit as racist as the mainstream. I guess it elevates a person if there's someone they can spit on.

Constructive Feedback said...

west coast story:

Beyond "bigotry" it is pure ECONOMIC REALITY.

At the end of the day there needs to be a CONTROLLED supply of labor - particularly at the lower end if there is any hope of having a "minimum wage" hold in real terms.

The borders of this nation and others are defined as a line of delineation for defense, services, taxation and labor. To have open borders is going to hurt those at the lower end the most ALWAYS. One doesn't have to hate Mexicans in order to defend our nation's interests in making sure that those who are legal US citizens can have a job market in which they can sell their labor for a paycheck.

It is interesting that one is likely to hear the claim "The Race Toward Zero" from the "consumers of labor" (the employers). The fact is that your position is just as supportive of this concept as any freshman econ major will learn - the market price is set at the point of intersection between supply and demand. This is why I use the concept of "selling labor" and "consumers of labor" - because this is exactly what it is.

Anonymous said...

original people were BLACK

original language ARAMAIC out of which Hebrew and Arabic came

original numbers Arabic, Romans tried to replace (1,2,3, etc)

original universities in Ethiopia, were the Romans and Greeks studied stole theories such as Pythagorean

if this is new knowledge take African American studies

racism is an institution, prejudice is a state of mind

Adam was put on the Earth as a punishment

original slaves were Muslim (slang for land of Mu (mistakenly believed to be called Atlantis) a peaceful ppl "saleem")many named Amir (Amer -ica)
Ica- language of Portuguese (original slavetraders)

took slaves to Salem (Salem, Ma or Salem, Oregon, I sure their a Salem in your state)to teach them superstition to get their minds away from Islam

Islam- a way of life, not a religion, how to pray, cleanse, live a straight life

Religion- formed by Romans and Greeks to control population

Muslims-read all texts Bible, Quaran

Was Adam an immigrant? on judgment day are you going to ask the creator why he put Mexicans in your state? They don't have a visa, what was HE thinking?

Bob said...

Is your definition of "my people" becoming too broad?

changeseeker said...

I read a post by Sokari over at Black Looks the other day that linked to a list of the main points being raised to examine the anti-immigrant attitudes and actions in South Africa. With a change of only a couple of words, they could have been talking about the U.S. It was weird to read and realize how global this issue is. Neo-liberalism is a baaaaaad thing.

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