Saturday, July 19, 2008

Ward's world! Ward's world!



I recently saw the following article featuring an interview with one of my favorite "slave catchers", Ward Connerly. Good ole Ward is determined to end affirmative action, because in Ward's world we just don't need it anymore. A-merry-ca is so beyond that.

Here is my man Ward sharing some of his thoughts with the Arizona Republic:





"Republic: Are we at a time in our nation when the playing field is level, providing equal opportunity to all? Or is there still racism working against certain individuals of certain ethnic groups?


Connerly: I don't think that we're at that ideal place where there is absolute equality. I'm not sure that we ever will be. I don't think that it should be the standard by which we decide whether the government should treat people as equals, however. . . . But I look around my country and I see that ... a multiracial male (Barack Obama) stands a very, very good chance of being the next president of the United States. To me, that says a lot about the country.

If we're willing to turn over the red box to someone, and we're willing to disregard their gender or where their ancestors came from or the color of their skin, that says to me we're probably willing to admit them into college without worrying about the color of their skin and we're probably willing to hire them without worrying about the color of their skin.


So, while we're not at the point where everything is now level - it's certainly not level for someone who is low-income Black, or from Mexico who doesn't speak good English and living in the low-income section of south central Los Angeles or Phoenix or wherever, it's not level for them - I think, for the most part, it's an economic problem.

And we need to do more dealing with this widening gap between the haves and have-nots. I'd like to see us do more, and ironically - maybe not ironically - the demise of race preferences in California has done more to benefit low-income people of different backgrounds than race preference ever did because now the university, through its comprehensive review system, is giving special attention to those who are faced with social-economic problems. Social-economic affirmative action, I support.

Republic: Are you concerned perhaps about some of the success of the initiatives is attributable to some of the voters who are racist or acting out in backlash for what they feel as being victims of reverse discrimination, whether real or imagined?

Connerly: Yeah, they are there, but I think that clearly they are in the minority. They're there. I'm always concerned about that, and I certainly want nothing to do with them.
The opposition has its monsters, also, who are saying, "Let's get even. It's our time. It's our turn. Let's get even." The way I reconcile that is, a broken clock is right twice a day. And if there are those who have foul motives but happen to agree with me but for the wrong reasons, they're still agreeing with the principle.


I have more confidence in the majority and the will of the majority than I do fear of that very small minority who are saying they support this because they want to retard the progress of people of color. I certainly don't run away from my belief because other people share that belief but for the wrong reasons. When you start looking at the motives of other people, you reach a point where you drive yourself crazy. . . . I once said to someone, "If the KKK supports this language, then God bless them." And then that became the headline: "Connerly says God bless the Klan."


What I was saying is I want everyone to believe in the idea that everyone should be treated equally. (If) you vote for this initiative, you're saying that you believe in it.

Republic: Have we reached racial advancements and milestones in this nation partly because of affirmative action? Would we be where we are today without affirmative action?


Connerly: I think I could make a strong case that we'd be further. I think that on the front end, affirmative action - race-based affirmative action - changed the culture in a way that would not have happened at that point without some sort of affirmative action. Lyndon Johnson's version of affirmative action, which came after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was signed, was sort of like taking a swimming pool that is filled with algae and throwing in a big dose of chlorine to get the algae out of there. You couldn't do it by introducing a speckling of chlorine in that pool, you've got to throw in a heavy dosage to get that algae out of there. That's what race-based affirmative action did originally.


But you don't keep throwing in the same dosage every month. If you do, then you don't want to go in that water. We've reached a point where we've gotten the algae out, now just leave it alone. Maybe put in a little here and there, maybe. . . . So I think that affirmative action has built in a certain dependency on the part of a segment of Black America that is a disease worse than the cure that we set out to achieve. If we had not gone with race-based affirmative action but had focused instead on getting rid of discrimination, I think that we would not have to unring the bell, if you will, of some of these other problems.


Republic: Is there the perception of someone of color or a female who is successful - say, a top manager of a company - that he or she is solely the beneficiary of affirmative action and thereby diminishing any efforts and achievement?


Connerly: Absolutely. In any area of public policy there is a point of diminishing returns. You especially see this in this area here. Affirmative action starts out to remove the barriers of discrimination, something that logically and obviously ought to have happened. . . . But then, there are some people - Black people, Latinos, women, quote, minorities - who do excel. They rise to the top.


But the paradigm that exists, that women and minorities are targeted for equal opportunity, that very paradigm begins to imperil their progress because they're marginalized by the perception that they are the products of affirmative action. . . .




The very system that is designed to provide equality becomes its own crippler because it marginalizes people. . . . The worst thing that they do, those people who say they are a proud product of affirmative action, is that they perpetuate that mind-set that if it were not for affirmative action, they would not be there. That's the point of diminishing returns that we've reached in this whole area. We marginalize and we retard the progress of those who do it on the natural. We reached this point of diminishing returns probably about 15 years ago.



Okay Ward obviously has some issues. But I do believe that affirmative action as it is used in schools, for instance, should not just consider the race of an individual, but their economic background and other factors as well. For instance, given certain criterias,a poor white applicant from Appalachia being raised in a single family home, should probably get preference over a black applicant from a wealthy family with both parents at home. So we shouldn't do away with affirmative action, we should expand it. Contrary to what Ward believes, A-merry-ca just isn't at that color blind state yet. We still have a glass ceiling in this country when it comes to the business world for women and minorities, and 3 in 10 Americans still have a racial bias towards blacks.


Those are the facts Ward, and doing away with affirmative action won't change them, it will only make them worse.


85 comments:

jp said...

Field,
You should open a house negro abode of permanent shame and make him the first member. Here is a guy running around the country at a time where the number of black kids prepared to go college(ie. HS grads with right classwork and board scores) is shockingly low, and trying to throw a roadblock in those kids path. Worse, he's a guy that likely benefited from Affirmative Action himself in his college admissions. If that wasn't enough, he never addresses who has been the biggest beneficiaries of AA, white women, who have lept to the top of the academic and professionally worlds on the backs of Title IX. This dude boils my blood in a way that none of the other Uncle Toms in a America can do.

Anonymous said...

don't you think you need to worry about your our house (home)......your kids can't pass middle school must less stay out of jail and your worried about AA?

do they have AA in prison???

E.C. Hopkins said...

Field,

You should call up or email Derrick Bell over at NYU Law. Ask him to send Ward Connerly an autographed copy his book, Faces at the Bottom of the Well: The Permanence of Racism. Connerly might read it if Bell signs it and includes a heartfelt inscription. Reading the book would definitely help clear up Connerly's confusion.

Phil4Real said...

FN,
Here we are in 2008 and China is banning black people from Restaurants and bars during the OLYMPICS, claiming all black people sell drugs in those areas. So we don't need affirmative action? Heyah yeah! As long as ignorance and racism exist, there should be something in place to level off the playing field.

BikeMonkey said...

Ward C. is a classic ladder-puller. His rep and stature we're built as a businessman taking advantage of opportunities for minority-owned businesses. Agree with first comment, Entrant One in Permanent House.

Mahndisa S. Rigmaiden said...

07 19 08

Whoa! I actually agree with Mr. Connerly in that AA should be augmented to target the socioeconomic havenots. I have seen many rich Black kids and don't think they need AA any more than a rich white kid so I guess the guy is more complex than I thought.

fairlane said...

I have conflicted feelings when it comes to Affirmative Action.

I understand the necessity, at least in theory, and, yes, minorities, especially white women, have made some strides because of it.

However, I also have problems with Affirmative Action. Not because I'm worried that the "Mexicans" are going to steal my job, or that some "unqualified" black kid is going to get into college at the expense of my daughter.

My problems with A.A. are more fundamental, and based in reality.

First, I have a hard time believing our society can be "Transformed" through legislation.

If you look back on the Civil Rights Movement, you could easily argue the changes that occurred were not the result of changes in the law, but changes in people's perception.

King, and others brought the horror of racism into America's living room, and for the first time, America wasn't able to look away.

It was the visceral impact of seeing the cops beating, and arresting other human beings who were doing nothing more than asking to be treated like human beings that resulted in the Civil Rights Act, not the politicians.

Politicians only came on board, en masse, after they felt the reverberations from around the country.

People, regular schmucks, like me, and the readers here are the ones who "Transform" society.

Second, America's downfall will not be because of race, it will be because of economic stratification.

During the last 6 plus years, the average income for college graduates has declined almost 5% (That is a significant decline).

This doesn't bode well for our country as a whole because if income, and the standard of living is declining for college graduates, what's happening to those who have little to no education?

We know the answer.

They're fucked.

Now, I know some will probably knee jerk, but I can't control what others do, so, please, feel free.

If I'm a poor white man who, in the last 10 years lost the only good paying job I've ever had, and will ever have, and then I hear Sean Hannity, or Rush Limbaugh, or one of the regular whack jobs the Wingnuts role out, talking about "Special rights, and privileges" for blacks, Mexicans, gays, etc, well, obviously I'm going to be Pissed.

Where are my "Special rights," "What about me?"

I'm not saying the conclusion is logical, but I promise you it's real, it's happening.

Pain is relative.

And if I'm standing in my home holding a letter from the bank saying they're going to foreclose, you think I give a shit about whether some black kid got into college or not?

I can't head down to the bank, and tell them to go fuck themselves, and that I'm not paying, and they're not taking away my home (Well, I could, but then I'd end up in jail on top of losing my house).

But I can join up with some other poor whites, and rail against Mexicans, or Muslims, or Blacks because they have even less power than I do.

I'm not excusing that bullshit. Ignorance, for the most part, is a choice, but I do understand.

People are pissed off, and they're looking for a way to vent. Some beat their kids or wives, others get drunk or do drugs, some join street gangs, and some sign on with the Wingnuts, and rail against other powerless people.

We all know racism is alive, and well in America. You don't have to be a minority to understand or to be concerned.

But, ultimately, when the sun sets, we, the majority of us, are all in the same boat, and the boat is sinking.

The threat to the power structure, and the key to living in a society that is truly "Equal," does not reside in Washingtoon.

It's in places like this forum, and out there in the Real world where regular people interact.

We can continue to focus on what separates us, I'm guilty as well, and continue down this path, or, we can begin to focus on what unites us.

I promise, most of us have more in common with the average Wingnut than we do Barrack Obama.

Jody said...

When every aspect.... education, government, corporate, non-profit, all places in our lives are represented by 25% non-white representation at all levels... then we will not need affirmative action.
And oh by the way... that would mean represented by 50% women, too.

We have come along... but we are not there, yet. Til then, Affirmative Action is the boost still needed.

RC said...

AA, if it is to be widened to an economic concept, as Field {and Ward}
recommends, should be applied with complete diligence at the pre-school level. No point in balancing a scale
that has been tipped for 17 years already. Affirming that children don't fall so far down by the age of 8 that they will never get up should be the goal.
Then all the rest of the questions will answer themselves.
Some others are going to slip up at a later age, probably through drug dependency or alcoholism or early pregnancy, but it should be far fewer people. There are ways to address those problems too.
These concepts apply to all the people and all the classes. If they don't, then that is a form of racism and classism too.

Kit (Keep It Trill) said...

Phil4Real's above comment side tracked me - Un-friggin-believable!

About Ward: Field, your description of him as a black slave catcher is perfect. He killed affirmative action in California and Michigan, and gave his blessings to the KKK in this YouTube video.

I suspect this despicable mercenary is on the same covert payroll as Armstrong Williams used to be before he fell out of grace with the NWO.

~Kit (Keep It Trill)

Phil4Real said...

@fairlane
Why don't we just get rid all Gov't? No police, you govern yourself. Then see where that leads us, str8 to hell! Whites will be murdering blacks for GP and we'll have an all out race war. Not cause there are some honest hard working people in this country, but there remains a mindset blacks are the reason life is so awful for true Americans.

field negro said...

fairlane, you are right, it is happening, and you cannot legislate morality. But I agree that those poor white people should get some affirmative protections too, such as with certain educational institutions.

And if their sould can't change , tough. They don't have to like me, just follow the law.

mahndisa, I disagree; Ward is not that complex. And comments like bikemonkey's is why.

"don't you think you need to worry about your our house (home)......your kids can't pass middle school must less stay out of jail and your worried about AA?

do they have AA in prison???"



anon 10:59AM, I am worried about my own kids, which is why I want something in place for the ones who work hard and do the right things to have a shot. What Ward proposes doesn't give them that. And unfortunately they will end up in prison.

voteforpadro said...

Like a bunch of winney kids.

The mean old Chinese won’t let us come in their restaurants and eat their nasty food.........

The mean old white people want use the dreaded “N” word........

FOX News put Jesse on knowing full well he would say something bad about BHO......

Mean old white people are failing our kids in school (apparently only the boys), putting our men in jail and won’t provide free health care.

Black people want to take over the country.

I don’t care if it’s Jesse or some raciest asshole calling me (or anyone else) a derogatory name just tell’em to FUCK OFF!!!>>>>>>would be a good tee shirt.....lol

Mexicans are taking all the jobs.

We’re worried about Hispanics coming across our border.........if you haven’t realized it or not Mexican people have been coming across the border for awhile now......I think if they were going to pose a threat to national security they would have done it. They may not pay income tax(in some cases) but they mostly do their shopping in this country (I’m guessing, I’ve seen a few in Walmart).

We have to wrap our stupid, silly little minds around the fact we all live in this country !!!!

BE PROUD OF IT!!!!

I’m not a Graham fan but he was right about this being a country full of winney son-of-a-bitches!!!!!

STFU, get a job and VOTE....for someone....anyone:)

God Bless America our Troops and their families.

voteforpadro

mellaneous said...

Come on Field why did you have to make my Cheerios taste bad with this early Saturday morning reminder of the damage that this selfish narrow minded, unprincipled, opportunist has done. Black folks saying backwards things about race plays (and pays well)in the US.

Mandisha don't buy the hype. When Ward Connerly first began attempting to derail affirmative action in California he wasn't talking about economic inequality. He was talking about AA as reverse discrimination and the other foolishness about it hurting blacks who were the beneficiaries.

And of course neither accusation is true. AA makes sure that minorities are considered for positions, jobs, bids etc., that they historically were passed over for. I mean if we live in a country that is admittedly still holding onto racial prejudices, why would anyone assume that these prejudices are not expressed in the admissions office or in the corporate office or the local financial institution.


And the crap about it making people think that because someone gave you an equal opportunity you are somehow less qualified is actually racist cover. Because what they are really saying is that, 'we don't think you are qualified because you are a minority.'

Now no doubt we need a leveling of the playing field for the poor and a real redistribution of the wealth but that is called a revolution. And he aint talking about that. This is just a subterfuge to hide his shameless pandering to right wing conservatives and racists (informed and ignorant).

It would be one thing if this was just his opinion but he has profited from running around trying to encourage states to end their affirmative action programs and of course many have not needed much prodding.

Fairlane made some excellent points and is right when he said that issues like affirmative action can be used to further divide us. So AA needs to be patiently explained to folks.

AA was designed to give folks an opportunity who had been denied entrance before because of their race/sex and not necessarily because they were unqualified.

And that theory that blacks are getting into schools and jobs that they aren't qualified for is not true. There may be a few that indeed may not be qualified. But in greater society how many of our white brothers and sisters are really qualified for their positions?

For years blacks worked jobs in which they were qualified for promotions but failed to get because they were black. I heard countless stories in my neighborhood about black folks actually training the lesser qualified white person to be their supervisor. And many times the white has had less seniority.

AA was designed to level that playing field and give minorities the chances that they had been previously denied. It wasn't based on class but race, because blacks poor, middle class and upper middle class had been victimized. This theory was applied to women as well.

Northwest Airlines was sued in the early 1990's for failing to hire blacks even as baggage handlers. Were blacks unqualified to handle luggage? But the fact that this happened less than 20 years ago at a major corporation points to the need for fair hiring policies because, oddly many folks when left to their own devices won't do the right thing. And Field I bet there are a lot of folks who can give you examples of this reading your blog.

I don't know how we make someone feel better who may have lost a position to someone because of Affirmative Action. But what would be the alternative? Business as usual? That wasn't working. But I think the universe works that kind of thing out. My spiritual bias is showing with this I know, but I really believe that it works itself out.

Fairlane you are right we(blacks whites, people of color in general, immigrants) have to figure out that we are in this together and work together to make change. I honestly think that if we actually ran the country or lived in Fieldville we would work this stuff out among us.

And you are right this won't come from the bourgeios politicians who keep feeding us the same old same old in different bowls.

"The people united can never be defeated."

hennasplace said...

Ward Connerly is an opportunist, and he is not a complex individual. He is no better than Jesse Jackson, and he does not really identify himself as an African American. He will tell you that he is 25% black and rest is Irish, French, and Choctaw (I believe the Choctaw owned slave, but not completely sure) and it's part of the racist thinking that if you have one drop of blood in you, you are are black which I think is nonsense. Ward doesn't want to consider himself as a black man because he knows racism still exist and it isn't easy being black. You identify yourself as a cultural black person. Hey, I am part black, turkish, white and probably another ethnic I do not know about, but who cares. Anyway, why does almost every black person believe that they are part Native American? However, I identify as a black person culturally even if I do like the opera. I found out the other day that Carol Channing is half-black, and Carly Simon's mother was half black. Yet I digress.

What would solve the problem is that had open enrollment at colleges and universities in the first place. I really do not understand why secondary education is not free and open to anyone who wishes to attend. College is free in Canada, and think it's more beneficial to the country to have educated and well-informed people in the society. Of course not everyone is going to take the opportunity to attend, but it would higher than it is now. I think about less than 25% of the people living in this country have BA/BS degrees with a population of over 300 million people. I do think people still are prejudicial in race and class. It does help if you are black and poor that only rises stereotypes in people's minds.

I challenge Ward to ride in an expensive car in the south, so he get back to his roof and a rude awakening.

blackwomenblowthetrumpet.blogspot.com said...

Hey there Field Negro!

Affirmative action has benefited white women MORE THAN any other group... a fact that white men tend to brush over!

No one believes that Martha Stewart benefited from affirmative action? Barbara Walters? Oh but Oprah Winfrey...sure, of course!

Please.

Your statement that 3 in 10 Americans have racial bias towards blacks ...are you just kidding about that... 7 in 10 whites have racial bias towards blacks in my view... and 5 in 10 blacks have racial bias towards blacks...

Let us NOT forget that there are blacks who have extremely negative perceptions of other blacks and have extremely low expectations of themselves which is transferred to other blacks....

I am getting a headache just typing that...

{shaking my head}
Lisa

NSangoma said...

~
True, hennasplace, Ward Connerly does consider himself to be Irish. White folk won't let him be white, so he's decided to stick it to us.

hennasplace, always document yo' shyt:

According to Channing's memoirs, when she left home to attend Bennington College in Vermont, her mother informed her that her father, a journalist whom Carol had believed was born in Rhode Island, had in fact been born in Augusta, Georgia to a German American father and an African American mother. According to Channing's account, her mother reportedly didn't want [Channing] to be surprised "if she had a black baby". Channing kept this a secret to avoid any problems on Broadway and in Hollywood, ultimately revealing it only in her autobiography, Just Lucky I Guess, published in 2002 when she was 81 years old. Channing's autobiography, containing a photograph of her mother, does not have any photos of her father or son. Her book also states that her father's birth certificate was destroyed in a fire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Carol_Channing

Simon's father was Richard L. Simon (co-founder of Simon & Schuster, Inc.), a pianist who often played Chopin and Beethoven at home. Her mother was Andrea Louise Simon (née Heinemann), a biracial (black and white) Jewish civil rights activist and singer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/
wiki/Carly_Simon

Often when a slave bought his or her freedom, they would have to leave the county or the state where they resided. This of course caused a problem if that slave also wanted to buy the freedom of their family members.

Away around this was to give the purchase money to an Amerindian, and then to have that Amerindian buy you. This would allow the slave to live on the reservation, and not have to leave the county or state, while accumulating the resources to buy the remaining members of his or her family.

Another alternative was Grandfathered Freedmen, freemen who gained their freedom prior to the laws stating that a newly freed slave had to hat-up-on out of the area; a grandfathered freedman could also purchase and keep you until you had purchased all of your loved-ones.

NSangoma
`

Anonymous said...

I went to UW Madison Law School Ward had a talk that morining w/ the incoming students. He was just spouting all that anti-affirmative action crap. Now time for the Q&A..an outstanding prof/admins asked if he was inded against affirmative hen why was he calling the pres of the Law School trying to get his daughter into the school ....

Surprisingly he had no answer.

Whitney B. said...

Field,

Another good example of House Negro bidness. About this comment:

"If we're willing to turn over the red box (what?) to someone, and we're willing to disregard their gender or where their ancestors came from or the color of their skin, that says to me we're probably willing to admit them into college without worrying about the color of their skin and we're probably willing to hire them without worrying about the color of their skin."

WHO THE EFF ARE THE THEM'S? His own peeps? Plus, like most of what he said, it makes little sense.

Poor white kids (and now, probably thanks to AA some black kids, too) from Appalachia do have a college that they can go to absolutely free, without having to have tippy top grades. It is called Berea, and it is in Kentucky. 80% or more of the students are poor kids. All of the tuition, plus room and board is paid for by the school. The kids have to participate in some sort of giving back to the school (working in the kitchen, the store, cataloging their vast art collection, whatever).

The school is one of the richest in the nation, thanks to private donors and former alumni who have bequeathed their estates and valuables to the college. They have an astounding collection of art and artifacts which is probably worth double digit millions. And the donations just keep on coming.

AA needs to be revamped, of that I agree. I think it should now be a lower income initiative only, with certain preferences to minorities first.

Lucky for me, I never had to use it because I was crafty in how I approached a man's world....inch by inch. Now I am the glass ceiling and helping other women throw stones at it.

I have to disagree with you, Fairlain, about your comments on the civil rights movement changing people's perceptions. AA became very necessary thanks to the Dixiecrats not wanting to budge an inch with regards to the rights of all peeps to be humans and to be treated fairly, with equal considerations.

###

Whoa, I guess we all better boycott the Olympics and China, no? That's some bad shit. No wonder King George of Shrub is so excited about his trip!!!

Progressive Independent Woman said...

20-odd years later, and he's still committed to his cause which, at best, could be labeled, quixotic.

Not that he hasn't seen any changes in Affirmative Action, the SCOTUS's rulings on universities' AA policy, but I'm not sure Connolly can take credit for any changes wrought. Consider this: I've known of him since he burst on the scene in the 80s, yet I couldn't think of his name from a couple of weeks ago until today. Thanks, TFN, for jogging my memory.

hennasplace said...

Nsangoma:

I do not have to document that fact as Carol Channing is half black. True it's not a well-know fact, but I think the people commenting and reading are smart enough to look it up for themselves. It was just a side note. However, if Ward made an attempt to class himself as Irish, then he will not succeed in doing so. It is unfortunate that a person cannot truly embrace his heritage and it's probably understandable with because he probably grew up carrying many demons of racism, and it probably does eat him alive.

I cannot speak for you Nsangoma because I do not old you are, but I do not carry he same experiences with race as Ward Connerly or Carol Channing because placed into precarious position during their time. However, Ward should have used his experience to improve the lives of others. He is coming from a very selfish place. He has a pull yourself up from the boot straps mentally while he doesn't mention anything about the person who gave him the bootstraps. There is not such thing as a self-made man as someone is always helped along the way. Even Booker T. Washington who constantly talked about blacks doing things on their own would never have gotten as far as he did without the help of the kindness of others. Tuskegee did not build itself, he needed wealthy benefactors like Carnegie. Now you must be willing to accept the help, and make the decision to become you need, but everyone gets help no matter how they day they do not.

Torrance Stephens - All-Mi-T said...

sounds exactly what jones was saying in 1992 if my memory recants correctly, aint nothing new, its beaver, i mean ward

Christopher said...

Ward Connerly is a total douche.

Reminds me of SCOTUS judge Clarence Thomas. Brother Thomas enjoyed all the educational bennies of Affirmative Action and once he gets a Big House of his own, starts giving speeches denouncing the evils of Affirmative Action.

What a fucking hypocrite. Flush them both.

hennasplace said...

Chris:

What I find interesting about Ward Connerly is that he does support same-sex marriage if means anything. However, it may beneficial for him to be a proponent for same-sex marriage for business and financial reasons.

The more I think about it, Connerly does have some serious issues and it's a fight against himself, unfortunately, he making everyone else involved of whatever it is he is working out. I think he is in need of therapy. All I say that, growing in Louisiana must have been very difficult for him. He is coming from a completely place than we are now, but he needs to realize it.

Miranda said...

I saw the title, pic and read the first paragrpah and that was as much as I needed to read. I hate Ward Connerly..and I mean that sincerely...I mean HATE...Let me be clear, I mean H-A-T-E. I mean I hate him in the way my mama would fuss at me if I said it out loud cuz she really didn't raise me to be like this...but I hate him in the most fundamentally sound way. Why? Because he hates me and everybody who looks like me.

Acanthus said...

"Black people want to take over the country."

This is slipping out more and more, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

Wow, Ward Connerly actually thinks blacks can compete with whites in education and business.......YUP HE SURE IS OUT OF TOUCH

Anonymous said...

Blacks will always need a little extra help. Affirmative action helps those who just arent smart enough, motivated enough, good enough or experienced enough. AA is the hammer that fits the square peg into the round hole. GPA not good enough?? If your black it is.
SAT below average? for whites maybe, but youre black its just fine. Dont have experience? Got a criminal record? Been fired from your last three jobs? Dont worry, Affirmative action will wipe all the bad away....IF youre black of course.
Keep whinin people, Shaqueena want to be a doccta and Jamal want to fly a damn airplane. BETTA LET ME IN WHITEY.....IM BLACK!

Whitney B. said...

Whew, this is one incredible string of info that this little old white chick sure appreciates.

Lisa@blackwomenblowthetrumpet.com:
I think, based on my own experiences and the way I was raised (we are all equal and exceptional in some fashion) that there is far more racism in urban aud suburban A-Merry-ca, than rural hinterlands. I would have to agree, based on my Philly experience, that your numbers are probably right about white folks in SW Philly (which is where I live and had worked), but not the black folks I know. And, I know more black folks than white folks here. There are no "low expectations" on their part, and these peeps are all about fist bumping and cheering on anyone who moves forward, in or out of the ghetto. Like, we had a mad celebration for Barry Obama...oh, I mean Barack. Block party style.

A little aside: back in November of last year, I had to go to a hospital somewhere that took me through Cobbs Creek "Parkway". Now, for you folks that live outside of Philly, you may think "Parkway" is a beautiful road. No, no, no......not on Cobbs Creek (Parkway which is a vast park where dealers deal). You go through some serious bad ass 'hoods with half or more of the houses boarded up or caught on fire...Philly row houses...kinda like a suburban duplex only row upon row, block upon block of houses all connected together.

So, being a squirrel in a box when it comes to directions, I, of course get lost and get out of my car at a Dunkin' Donuts (the #1 Philly eatery) to ask directions. A guy inside said, "What are YOU doing here?" I need to know how to find this hospital. He tells me and then said get back in your car now and lock the doors. Huh? I got in the car, but didn't lock the doors. The fellow was a young black male dressed in those underpants pants with a big baggy half shirt. Sweet kid. A little mis-guided I guess (referring to what you said Lisa).

In Portland, OR, in the "black" area where a couple of different black friends of mine lived, was where I got to experience the "black" experience. Huge racial hatred toward white folks. I mean, I would be walking down the street (and it wasn't a 'hood at all like here) and young and middle aged folks would spit to the side when they saw me and mutter something. I didn't pay attention to what it was, but I felt the daggers firing off the faces and body language. I found it very strange, as I have been in and lived in many 'hoods in Chicago and here and there, and have never experienced that before. So, I know what it's sorta like to be dissed. I can't know the whole of it, but I got the feel of it there.

Me, no. I was raised all folks as equal until proven otherwise, that goes for all stripes and colors, especially my trashy peeps. I know you all don't want to believe it, but I don't judge any book by it's cover. I got to dig in and find out for my own self what's on the shelf.

I grew up in the Civil Rights era and my family and I championed the cause, along with many other folks of all ethnic (and LGBT...'cept they didn't have that title then) origins. My grandmother, back in the 30's went to a Pittsburgh, PA fancy hotel to find out why her featured vocal artist, Marian Anderson, was not given a room for a recital she was doing...Ms Anderson got a proper suite, befitting her position, thanks to Jessie (grandmother).

I am not by any means naive (like, I kinda knew I was taking a bit of a risk in Dunkin' land in the real 'hood) but I also know how to watch my ass. As I said before, I don't clutch my pocketbook, but I keep all my feelers feeling. I been in some bad countries, bad areas of some of those countries, and pretty bad areas in the States, including the worst place in the world, hillbilly country (think of "pigs squealing"). But, I've got street smarts for sure.

NSangoma:
You're the best!!! Thanks for the info. Been missing your point-counter-point of views, but let us never forget the poor share croppers, both black and white, who suffered so miserably under the big fat rich pig Dixiecrats.

Whoa, I guess I'm talking about today, ain't I? We are all share-crapping and suffering under those porkers, only now they are called Repubabbubbas.

Will be traveling for work to the "land of cotton" next week, so I may be off for a while. Hope not.

Highest regards to all you all,
(except you racist anons)
Whitney Brown

field negro said...

Wow Miranda, why don't you say what you really feel:)

Anon 3:31PM, thanks for that anecdote. LMAO!! Why am I not surprised?

hennasplace, and nsangoma, thanks for the info on Simon and Channing. So I guess they are my cousins too.

"STFU, get a job and VOTE....for someone....anyone:)"

Okay, I have two out of three covered. But as for STFU, that will NEVER happen! I reserve the right to talk about your ass, or anybody else in these divided states of A-merry-ca.

field negro said...

"SAT below average? for whites maybe, but youre black its just "fine. Dont have experience? Got a criminal record? Been fired from your last three jobs? Dont worry, Affirmative action will wipe all the bad away....IF youre black of course.
Keep whinin people, Shaqueena want to be a doccta and Jamal want to fly a damn airplane. BETTA LET ME IN WHITEY.....IM BLACK!"

Ward why don't you just use your real name when you post?

Whitney B. said...

Whoa, Mr. Field,

I was just checking to see if my spelling was correct above your last two posts, and read yours. Yikes! I don't think that black folks get preferential around here, do you? I think AA is dead more than alive in Philly.

Look, as I said, I didn't rely on AA but crept up on it inch by inch. A lot of folks don't have the where-with-all to know how to do that. Basically, it comes down to learning. Proper education, not learning by rote and how to take test(es) :)

Let's all try to get along and be one world with one heart.

Mad regards to you, but I gotta disagree on the anger mode,
Whit

Dragon Horse said...

Field:

Answer me this.

Why is it that blacks at almost every income level do worse on SATs than Asians and Hispanics of the same income level.

I'm not talking about poor blacks. I'm talking about middle class blacks and middle class Hispanics and Middle class Asians.

Remember about 50% of Asians were born outside the country (so not native English speakers) and probably a higher percentage of Hispanics...so they can come here, often poor (especially the Hispanics, as you often speak about) and do far better than blacks?

There is little racial discrimination in college admittance, in business, yes, we would likely agree on that for the most part, but not college admittance.

Colleges are very liberal, we have many universities where professors admittedly are socialist/communists. In California, after AA was banned, various universities did everything they could to get around the law, and these were white folks doing this to get more blacks and Hispanics in school, so the amount of racial discrimination at universities in 2008 is marginal.

That being said the biggest problem is black and Hispanic kids can't compete with the average white and Asian kid. And I'm sure you know Asians are not white.

Oh I know SATs are racial bias and targeted for uppermiddle class whites? LOL

Bullshit.

If it was then no one can tell me that blacks are not more culturally similar to white Americans of any class than immigrant Hispanics and especially Asians who do not even come from a culture that can be described as "Western" let alone Anglo-Saxon.

Once you can answer this question truthfully (why can't blacks compete) then you can solve the root cause of the problem an not put a bandage on it, AA.

My proof that blacks do worse on SATs when adjusted for income?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_outcomes_in_the_United_States_by_race_and_other_classifications#Testing

Answer this.

Why can't, even middle class blacks compete with Hispanics or Asians? Forget about whites for a minute.

What's the problem?

I will tell you what I believe, it is cultural. Blacks on average value education less and don't push their kids as much.

You can have the best teachers, the best books, buildings, etc.

Teachers can not make your children do homework, can not make sure they attend class, can not make them behave (for the most part), can not make them study.

That starts in the home. School is not a substitute for good parenting. Teachers are not parents, they are teachers. Children has to be ready to learn and learning is a family project.

It appears that even in the black middle class people don't believe that. They put the kids off on the state as daycare and blame the state for not spending enough (usually a lie as I can easily prove) or the teachers not caring or working hard enough.

Meanwhile an immigrant named Wang Wei and Song Yuk are up in the class getting A's in the same ghetto school, then going home and working 8 hours at mommy's and daddy's store, all the while trying to avoid being beat down by their fellow "people of color" classmates who want to play basketball and rap instead of study.


You got a better answer, I would like to hear it.

Dragon Horse said...

One more thing...

AA doesn't help the average poor black person anyway.

It helps lazy middle class black kids, because those kids (as I mentioned in my last post who still do worse on average than every other race) at least take SATs, attend school, give it half effort, and want to go to college and major in something useless (like pysch, sociology or something else you can't get a job for without a Phd which they have no intention of doing)...

Those kids are in a position to take advantage of AA.

Pookey and Lil Ray Ray who drop out in 9th grade will never see an AA opportunity...well unless you think AA is the reason so many black men are in jail because they get "special consideration" LOL Maybe black women give them some AA and let them knock them up and have no means of getting child support...other than that...the only contact these people have with greater society is the legal system or annoying decent people on public transportation...etc.

Jody said...

It never ceases to amaze me that ALL major universities (except HBUs) are 85% to 99% white attended... yet we have these idiots out there that think special consideration for a goal of 25% minorities is taking away every single one of these idiot's opportunity. And at the same time, they are not clamoring for the legacy students, the athletes, or special consideration for disablities or older than average students be stopped. Its just racial consideration that concerns them. Hmmmmmmm Dragonhorse, that would be you... Oh by the way, your stats on Hispanics is incorrect. Hispanics are dropping out of high school at a higher rate than African Americans and have been for years.

Whitney B. said...

Dragon Horse,

Yikes, the racial slurs keep getting worse and worse. What is your stripe? You're pretty scary with the talk. You walked the walk? Meaning, were you the downtrodden little black kid that made it? Not the b-ball or f-ball kid skatin' by, which is how I read between your lines.

And, what's this crappola about 50% of Asian's who come here? That ain't so (Asians have been here, as another type of slave labor, for centuries). As for Hispanic and Latino peeps, I know that your numbers are wrong. Black folks are above that median. And, that ain't meant as a slur to Hispanic and Latino folks...I read the numbers.

Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia. It has an open-ended text where folks can change the message to their advantage.

This SAT and ACT sheeit is sheeit. I have seen lots of folks go through tough college years and come out on top. Not because of their scores on admittance, but due to determination. I went to an Ivy League with many of them. Don't go starting on me, I got in due to brains, on a scholarship.

And, not due to any AA stuff. My name is Whitney, which back then, was a man's first name!!! I got a draft notice during Viet Nam po-lice action...but that's a whole other story.........

Whitney (proud of my personal peeps) Brown

Anonymous said...

I must be missing something. Im black and there was no evil white man at my schools stopping us from studying. When I went home, no porky CEO type chomping a cigar hiding my books so I couldnt read. I remember taking the SAT test and discussing it with my white classmates...imagine my surprise when I learned we took the same test. No white cabal member changing my test for a much harder one.
Nor do I remember a class for whites and a separate class for people of color. We were presented the same material by the same teacher in the same language. Took the same tests and the answers that were correct on the white kids test were also marked correct on my test.
When it was time for college, one white friend who had a 3.9GPA and KILLED the SAT went to Brown University. Another who had a 2.8 went to a community college. I had a 3.35 and went to Rutgers. Explain to me how that is wrong and I should be filled with racial hatred.
Should I have gone to Brown and Mr. Smartypants take my place at the state college ? After all, Im black. My father abandoned my mother when I was 3. Did I mention Im black? Mr. 3.9 is white, his father stayed with his mother (probably still is)His Dad had a great job, a nice house. He should be penalized for that shouldnt he?

Affirmative Action;
What a wonderful way to say blacks are dumber that everybody else.
Absolutely Embarassing!

Dragon Horse said...

Too all response:

SIGH...typical. Is this the best we can do? No wonder we got lower SAT scores.

Jody:

You did not answer my question.

I'm not talking about drop out rates, I'm talking about SAT scores, but show me the stats for drop out rates. I want to see how big the gap between blacks and Hispanics are...(not that some Hispanics are not black)...please stay on topic. I am talking about SAT scores. If you need help I got some Ritalin.

It is not racial consideration that is my primary concern. You still don't get it.

Everything thing you mentioned is bad to me, but what I'm concerned with is not AA by race, but why blacks aren't competitive. If they were competitive they would not need AA.

I want blacks to do the best they can with what they have and they are not. It is that simple. You are stuck on who gets the biggest handout and for what. I'm saying screw the handout.

Hell Asians in Cali were not worried about why can't they get more AA they were saying they wanted to get rid of it. Why? Because if you look at Berkely it is now about 40% Asian because when AA ended they got black, Hispanic, and white seats.

I want blacks to be in that position to say..."I don't need your special consideration and in fact it hurts me by limiting what I can do".

You stuck on just maximizing what someone can give you in charity.

Where I come from we call that low self esteem and low expectations. I was not raised like that.

Whitney:

Lets get something straight...if you can't back up stuff I will chalk it up to B.S...your personally experiences don't count for much because I have no way of knowing if they are anywhere close to average.

In my life most of my black male friends graduated from high school and about 90% of them went to college (maybe no graduated but went)...is that the average life of a black American male in America?

See what I mean?

Please source what you are saying with something.

As far as Asians you have no clue what you are talking about. I never said there have not been Asians here for decades. I said half the Asians in American today were not born in America.

My proof?

Let see...Asians in America say that a little more than half the current population was not born here:

http://www.asian-nation.org/index.shtml

I will trust the Asians.

"The second stereotype is that all Asian Americans are foreigners. Although more than half of all Asians in the U.S. were born outside the U.S., many non-Asians simply assume that every Asian they see, meet, or hear about is a foreigner."

Good enough for me? You have census info to refute it?

I found this in 1 minute, using something called GOOGLE. Ever heard of it?


I was not a down trodden anything. My African American...my father was career military, now a contractor with a major fortune 500 for the military.

He grew up working class, his father owned businesses and was the first family in his town (black family) to integrate a neighborhood in there area of Ohio.

My mother went to Ohio State and dropped out pregnant with me, but married my father. They didn't stay married but my father always supported me and after my mother died I lived with him.

My mother worked at a manufacturing plant...so we were not rich but I don't remember my mother or father ever failing to provide...

I didn't use any racial slurs by the way.

"This SAT and ACT sheeit is sheeit. I have seen lots of folks go through tough college years and come out on top. Not because of their scores on admittance, but due to determination."

Let me ask you this. As you know schools standards vary quite a bit. An "A" in English at one school might be a "C" in English at another school. School systems have widely different standards and "No Child Left Behind" is basically no standard at all, it is the "just getting by" standard.

So in this situation how is it you can objectively judge what student should get in where without standardized tests?

You do know why those test were created don't you? They were created to end discrimination. You do know your history. The Ivy League had a "Jew Quota" the SATs/ACT were created to get in more (Jews, Italians, Irish) and other people who did not always come from privileged into top schools and it was pretty successful in evening the playing field.

http://www.yale.edu/yrb/summer00/review8.htm

Without such a test it becomes very subjective pretty quick unless you have another criterion? Please share.

In any case that hardly matters...it is just a test, if it is meaningless than why can't blacks be competitive? It is not shocking that this low performance also correlate highly with black grades in mixed race neighborhoods as revealed in John McWhorter's book "Losing the Race"

Say what you want personally attacking him (as I know you will) but no one has ever refuted his data. NO ONE. If you can please show me.

As for the rest, get over yourself, you act as if it attacked you personally and I am talking to you. Am I? Why so defensive?

Oh yeah as far as Wiki...that was sourced...and it matches the original info:

http://www.arthurhu.com/index/test.htm#satincome

don't be so lazy. There is a lot more in there, and I will say myself, usually blacks slightly beat Hispanics, but "slightly" for a population that is largely immigrant in most areas is pathetic, lets be honest here. If my kid got the average grade of a poor immigrant who grew up speaking English as a second language or whose parents were functionally illiterate I would be pissed and embarrassed. Better believe the TV would go into storage and Jr. will be reading his black tail off.

Anonymous said...

Wow..."fairlane" and "dragon horse"...Your comments - syntax, semantics + spelling...please tell us you are not products of (educational) affirmative action. Some of us realized (in 1964 and 1965) that morality could never, ever be legislated. It took a bloody civil war in this country to add several amendments to the constitution - one of which prohibits the/any state from discriminating against an individual because of their race, religion, origins. If I understand AA correctly, its (active)intent was/is to prohibit any public (educational)institution from discriminating against(effectively bar enrollment/education)any person because of their race, religion, gender, origin. The(passive?)effect of AA was the lowering and/or erasure of academic standards and expectations for entering fresh-wo/men - particularly men and women of color. Admissions committees could absolve themselves of guilt and crow about "diversity". That some of these same men and women did achieve academic excellence was not any particular miracle because they were educationally prepared and qualified anyway, making AA kind of obsolete today.
When we black people stop wallowing in oppositional cultural identity; when we cut the umbilical cord of "entitlement", we might understand and perhaps sympathize with some of WC's actions. Far be it from me to label him a "house negro" or hate him. And, dragon horse, I find it interesting that (black)people of our grandparents' generation refused to accept mediocre/failing grades. Ethnically "diverse" students who attend charter schools and academies experience high academic achievement because anything less is unacceptable; they also realize that their ethnic identity is no longer, thankfully, automatic admission to Cal Berkeley, or many other public institutions of higher learning. Would you all really prefer that some guilt-ridden admissions committee admit your undereducated ill-prepared child? As an undergrad victim of AA and a post-grad survivor of AA, I continue to educate and ensure that my students don't suffer the indignity of AA; that they will truly be "judged by the content of their (moral and educational)character".

Anonymous said...

OK Dragonhorse and anon 11:11....but...but...IM BLACK DAMMIT!

Dark Moon said...

Connerly—I despise him on a quantum level. He is worse than the White racist that will kick in your teeth in and then drag you behind a truck. He is worse than those whites who look at you with that sh*t-eating grin before delivering you an Ides of March with death daggers. All those poor angry white males being all brave and un-PC (now look we got a black-no 25percenter--mouth piece in our corner-yay—you tell those no-count lazy asses!) vociferously protesting a policy that has benefited WHITE WOMEN on every conceivable institutional level.

In addition, I am trying to understand how all these gazillion unqualified, ignorant ass, feeble minded Blacks are taking choice slots from all those poor White and Asians hardworking students. The Black population on most campuses barring HBCU’s makes up a fraction of White and Asian students combined. I would see if each campus had a wall of no count Blacks clogging up the academic pipeline—but where I lived the majority of professors and students were White and Asians. Funny enough I don’t see the same visceral contempt and outrage with regards to Asians, Foreign students---(who are often rich and can buy their way into many choice universities) White women, legacy students and athletic scholarship students who compete in basically non-essential, but usuallly expensive sports like fencing and crew because of course they are---mostly WHITE.

What is even more interesting is that there are way more White kids that got into college because of legacies and their parents being able to buy their way in. As Peter Schmidt the author of the book Color and Money notes:

Moreover, contrary to popular belief, it was not the black and Hispanic beneficiaries of affirmative action, but the rich white kids with cash and connections who elbowed most of the worthier applicants aside.
Researchers with access to closely guarded college admissions data have found that, on the whole, about 15 percent of freshmen enrolled at America's highly selective colleges are white teens who failed to meet their institutions' minimum admissions standards.

Who are these mediocre white students getting into institutions such as Harvard, Wellesley, Notre Dame, Duke, and the University of Virginia? A sizable number are recruited athletes who, research has shown, will perform worse on average than other students with similar academic profiles, mainly as a result of the demands their coaches will place on them.

A larger share, however, are students who gained admission through their ties to people the institution wanted to keep happy, with alumni, donors, faculty members, administrators, and politicians topping the list.
Applicants who stood no chance of gaining admission without connections are only the most blatant beneficiaries of such admissions preferences. Except perhaps at the very summit of the applicant pile - that lofty place occupied by young people too brilliant for anyone in their right mind to turn down - colleges routinely favor those who have connections over those who don't.

While some applicants gain admission by legitimately beating out their peers, many others get into exclusive colleges the same way people get into trendy night clubs, by knowing the management or flashing cash at the person manning the velvet rope.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/09/28/at_the_elite_colleges___dim_white_kids/
http://colorandmoney.blogspot.com/

Hey but THEY ARE WHITE. So it’s not affirmative action. A practice that has been going on before and after AA policies hope to re-dress the grievous imbalance. And this goes into the work world when whites graduating from these institutions and network with fellow alums in their fields, thereby effective continuing the legacy of institutionalized racism and racial distrust and inertia.

But no White or Asian people whinging on incessantly about those evil Blacks taking their slots—when it’s their own they have to worry about. But as usual its so much easier to blame it on Black people for brining everything down. Blacks although making inroads through shear grit—are not the ones they have to compete with.

Anonymous said...

I heard this analogy once;

Lets say I wanted to play basketball in an urban league. Im not very good. Never really practiced. Never really liked the sport, but now I want to play in a league downtown. I get in the first game and I drop the ball all the time, travelled and fouled incessantly. After the game they put me out and get somebody else, telling me to practice and tighten up my game then come back and tryout.
IM INCENSED! IM OUTRAGED!
I tell them im a minority that has a history of oppression, I come from a single parent family and a tough neighborhood. All the guys Im playing against have fathers and brothers thay play and practice with. Their families take ball seriously.
WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE RESPONSE?
They will tell me so fucking what? Go home and practice, put some time in the gym.

Now lets switch basketball with education. Homie dont test too well. Cant do math, sucks at language and is bored by science, attention is short. He drops the same excuses as before but instead of ballers, he whines to guilt-ridden white liberals. Does Ms. Liberal tell him to study harder? Does she say that at this point he just aint there? HEAVENS NO! She seeks to soothe her guilt by lowering the standards for the poor ignorant negro. (because we all know they cant really hang with "us") Stooping to raise the well meaning savage to her level and thus granting her absolution and forgiveness. She can now drive her SUV to the local Starbucks and tell the tales of what a magnanimous white lady she is.
If she were the comissioner of the urban B-ball league she would lower the hoop for the poor boy. She would let him grab the wrist of the shooter and tuck the ball 'neath his arm and run like the wind.
We wouldnt let this happen in basketball, why would we let them do this to us in school?

Its embarassing people, dont you realize that? The people that DO make it by the high standards are laughing at us. Whining for the hoop to be lowered. Get some pride for heavens sake.

Whitney B. said...

Yikes, Dragon Horse,

You are still full of sheeit. Look, though I call myself a WASP, but my father was Jew(ish) but being born of a Jewish father, I was NOT a Jew(ish) person, and those tests weren't made back in my days to admit anyone. They actually were discriminating. The other folks that made it, Gawd bless 'em. I was all for the peeps. I had a hard time keepin' up because I had to have a "better than" score. To keep my little measley scholarship of 50% paid. Me working full time while lots of kids skated....not the minority folks, though. We were all working hard to stay at our Alum.

And, let me add, as we used to say in Alaska, "No child left behind sucks the moose meat!!!" Get it??? Rote ain't the way to learn!!! Hello??? I'm not so stoopid as you 'spect.

Argh!!!

Whaaaa...........Whitney Brown

Whitney B. said...

Ha ha ha, Dragon Horse. I just went back and saw your flip flop about black folks vs. Hispanic's or Latino's. Eat your words, dude! Don't give me your pop sheeit or your per quota stuff...get off it. You are one of those folks that Lisa was talking about, but not in your ignorant racist ass sense.

Yeah, I am ranting, but I am angry at black folks not realizing that it is a poverty issue (not black or white) that makes AA very very important!!!

And, whenever I encounter racism in "Sippi, which I expect will be a lot, I will continue to jump ass on dumb asses.

Anonymous said...

Whitney, you underestimate yourself, you are every bit as stoopid as I expected.....and just a little bit more.

You went in to much more detail describing your genetic makeup than actually showing how those tests were "discriminating". You see, not being in your drum circle, your simply saying it is discriminating just isnt good enough for me. Go figure.

Im not sure you quite realize this, but life aint fair to everybody. Hulk Hogans' dope kid will skate through life and I have a terrier mix that is smarter than him. Should we create a commission to "level the field" with stupid celeb offspring?
(anticipating your answer...OK who would be on the commission?)

Or should we see the opportunities we have and exploit them to the fullest? Im sure the son of Joe Hill-billy must work harder than the spawn of Russell Simmons. My answer to him would be the same...plant your overalls behind the desk and git to learnin'.

Im not sure why youre pissed off? Because you had to work hard? Do you think you shouldnt have to? Do you think whites should work harder? Try to be a little clearer.

Whitney B. said...

Anon @ 12:32,

No bud, I had to work harder because I was in a school with brainiacs, of all ethnic and stripes, and I had a 50/50 scholarship. Which a lot of kids, mostly all WASP's, did not. Their peeps were payin' the bills. As for the rest of us, we were all workin' a lot harder than the coasters (WASP's).

Sorry, a fact.

Am I resentful? Yes, I am. I was a high school drop out that applied to this fine University, took their tests, and got my 50% scholarship, which took me to 1995 (1987 was my last year) to pay off. I was an outstanding student, with a 3.8 average...had a better average before I had to take (boring) stats. Back when, stats were boring...unlike today's fake stats (thanks to Fake news and media in general).

Crit me all you want. Walk in my shoes. I am no white chick that coasted by on AA. I have worked hard to not be there and I am one woman who has broken the glass ceiling all on my own, inch by inch. I open the door to all of my sisters to throw rocks at it. I promote women, don't repress or diss them. However, I do diss bigots!!!

Whitney Brown

Anonymous said...

My My Whitney, you throw around the words "racist" and "bigot" very freely. You might want to reserve that for people who you know. An anonymous post on the net doesnt a David Duke make.

A bit of reality my dear, people who compete alongside "brainiacs" in school need to work harder than them. Just how it is. I roomed in college with a guy from MENSA, he studied a total of 5 minutes in two years and got A's. I worked my ass off for a 3.5. No hatin here, Im cool with that. Not resentful either, I got my shot thats all I wanted or deserved. All others have that shot too, its called "school". Try hard, do well and the world is yours. Screw around and you end up whining on an internet chatboard for the government to give you more.

Another fact. Wealthy parents can afford to send their kids to school without scholarship. Its part of the rewards of succeeding in life. Poor people usually begrudge them that but if you were rich you would do the same for your kids so drop the chip sweetie, it aint attractive. Instead of hating on the WASPS for having rich parents why not be a little peeved at your parents for not having the cash for the coaster? It aint the kids fault daddy made it.

If you took statistics (as did I) we both know any claim can be refuted. Especially in opinion based surveys. Not sure why you brought that up.

You are the perfect example of why AA is evil. Those who want to make it, can and usually do. It takes hard work and determination both of which you seem to have. Logic...well you cant have everything I guess.

The "walk in my shoes" line is so pathetically insipid. Everybody has a story my dear. Everybody has hurdles they must overcome and every histrionic drama queen thinks they scaled the highest mountain and swam the deepest sea in their march to the present. The fact is your story is painfully average. Contrary to what you think most people who have succeeded work hard, most harder than you. So congrats to be sure but dont nail yourself on the cross just yet.

Christopher said...

Anonymous is (Un)Constructive Feedsack's doppelganger.

Did he really think people wouldn't get hip to his game? Please.

Dragon Horse said...

Dark Moon:

You spent an entire article talking about whites who get privilege from legacy status or athletes (who can be any race and usually bring millions to fund the University so they don't have to raise tuition on everyone else) and then mention Asians at the end.

How many star Asian athletes are at any of these schools in envision. Being most of the current Asian American population was born abroad...they likely (could be but likely not) legacy students and I'm not trying to stereotype but there aren't many big time Asian athletes at the U.S. college level so yes they do work hard. Is it fair they can't get into a Tier 2 or Tier 1 university when they busted their butts for a lazy white rich kids, legacy student, or a lazy black or Hispanic? If you were Asian and you came here from Vietnam as a refugee (forced to jump in a boat at the point of a gun) and you had to work crap jobs in some ghetto store, some crap resteraunt that barely made money if not for your families joint labor, etc. If you had to have your kids work just to support the family and you made your kids sacrifice to do that and then work hard on their schooling for very long hours...could be your kids first language was not English...and then they get a rejection letter when they have a 4.2 GPA, top 90 percentile SAT score (even high in English which is not their first language) and you find out (hypothetically speaking) one of the above groups with kids who didn't work as hard get your kids spot you would feel good about it??????

Naw...keep it real.

Lets group like with like for a minute and make equal comparisons...

Whitney:


You don't know your history. Before the SATs there was a unspoken Jewish Quota at various top level school and they would use highly subjective criteria to admit people like "leadership ability", "personality presence" which for some unknown mysterious reason Jews and darker ethnic whites never had...hmmm

I already quoted an Ivy League academic source which verifies what I'm saying if you don't believe it find a counter source and stop speaking out of your hind parts. Thanks.

After all of that Whitney you still didn't answer my original question which is: Why can't blacks compete and other non-white groups can to a higher extent...it doesn't make any sense and you have no explained it and if SATs are bias then what is a better way to measure ability when we live in a country with no standardized eduction so grades don't equate from school to school????


I'm still waiting...all this nonsense and no answer. We only here personal stories and FEEEEElLLLLings. I don't care what you FEEEEEEELLLL. I care about facts and logical arguments. I think extreme left wingers don't get this, to them, if it feels right it must be right. I might not agree with the far right but I have to admit they put up a much better fight, at least they are thinking even if they are flawed in their logic.

No wonder the extreme left wing at universities are in non-math related fields.

Anonymous said...

Georgia "Flash" said

dragon horse:
Some possible answers to your question re why (some, not all) blacks can't compete on SATs; perform abysmally poor on (current)high-school exit exams, I suspect, has something to do with the saturated, well documented and aggressive efforts by US (FUBU?)to differentiate ourselves; be opposite mainstream culture.
Please, don't fall for the 'bait' of "biased competency tests", or "racist school teachers/college admissions committees". The real gorilla at the dinner table is our collective acceptance of mediocre/failing academic performance. Often, black students prefer to party instead of forming study groups; Asian students do the opposite - AND - in the (SF Bay Area) Asian community mediocre and/or failing academic performance is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE!
We (many of us black people) have suckled at the tit of victimhood, entitlement and irresponsibility for generations - so much so that one wonders about mutation and genetics (no, I won't go there).
Anyway, check out linguistics professor, John McWhorter.

Anonymous said...

Goodness here we go again, "Black people are responsible for their own lives and choices"

THATS NO FUN

Anonymous said...

Georgia, Great post, I will add that most asian and white kids have two parents in the home who work as a team. Their goal? To prepare their kids for success in life. So many non-black kids sit at the dinner table with their parents going over the days lessons. So many non-black parents meet their kids after school to do some library work.
I once visited a friend of mine who taught in an Oakland (Cali) middle school. We were discussing the abysmal performance of black children. She said a visit was worth a thousand words. Approaching the school we saw a huge group of black kids around a blaring boom box, school had been out for about 30 minutes. They were loud, obnoxious, harassing anybody who passed. Most kids crossed the street to avoid them. We went into the library, I was shocked, it was packed, not a seat to be had. Chockfull of asian and white kids WITH at least one parent. Not one African American present. She said this was an everyday occurance. She said she had one black parent come to parent teacher conference this year. It was April. The black mother didnt come to consult, she came to yell at the teacher for suspending her baby for bringing a knife to class.
We are at a crisis point people. We are at the bottom and sinking fast. It pains me to see such blindness about the cause of this. Affirmative Action isnt the answer. Hard nose accountability is. Hold us to the same standard as whites and asians, we are equal arent we? We can learn like them cant we? Lately, Im just not sure.

Dark Moon said...

The problem with your diatribe and with other Whites and Asians that pathologically and fervently believe that Blacks are already having an advantage because of AA is that it is stunningly false. We obtain modest benefits of AA when you factor in the white elephant ---WHITE WOMEN who have been tremendously helped by and continue to obtain benefits from Affirmative Action on a scale that far exceeds Blacks. Without the policies of AA, many WHITE WOMEN would not have access to many jobs and other benefits which includes:

• The Department of Labor estimated that 6 million women workers are in higher occupational classifications today than they would have been without affirmative action policies.

• Gender based affirmative action policies that benefit women run the gamut from science camps for girls to policies at the University of Michigan that promote the enrollment of women in engineering programs to breast cancer screenings and women-only domestic violence shelters.

• Outreach, recruitment, and scholarships for women encourage participation in fields like medicine, science, computers and engineering, fields in which they are seriously underrepresented

• Government outreach programs ensure that women and minority owned businesses have a fair chance to secure government contracts.

http://aapf.org/focus/episodes/oct30.php

Thus, this notion that Blacks are the primary beneficiaries of these programs is patently and stunningly false, because it continually re-frames the argument that Blacks are too stupid to get into to school and obtain high quality jobs. Without the benefits of AA policies, it would not have the modest gains in rates and possibilities for Blacks to pursue an education and has been noted here:

Academically selective institutions are almost always strongly committed to affirmative action in admissions, yet at the same time they tend to deliver a high black student graduation rate. Obviously, this undercuts the assertion made by many conservatives that black students admitted to our most prestigious colleges and universities under race-conscious admissions programs are incapable of competing with their white peers and should instead seek admissions at less academically rigorous schools. The fact that almost all entering black students at Harvard, Amherst, Princeton, and several other highly ranked colleges and universities go on to earn their diplomas shows that African Americans do compete successfully at our nation's most prestigious institutions of higher learning.

http://www.jbhe.com/features/50_blackstudent_gradrates.html

In most instances, Blacks who attain access to completive institutions belong there, and because of AA they have the opportunity to shine like all the other Whites and Asians. But then most people still think the Obamas don’t deserve their degrees and status because of affirmative action, yet NO ONE complains about the lack-luster performance of Bush and company who got in because of the teeming business of legacies, etc. Obviously Blacks still have a long way to go, and we are working towards actualization, but without some kind of AA policy in place, it would be that much harder for committed and ambitious students to even get into the door.

Asian Americans have a distinctly different racial history than Blacks. Asian populations who did not come through Angel Island (Asians Ellis Island) had their numbers limited by the Exclusion acts of 1924, etc. Asian re-population did not come until after the second wave when America largely let in elites and academics with the Immigration Act of 1965 (due to the gains of Black Civil Rights movement) to offset the Blacks competing with Whites. The third wave of Asian immigrants have been mostly from the Southeast—who are a lot more diverse and thus tarnishes the model minority myth as been noted here:

Asian Americans benefit from affirmative action. First and foremost, racial diversity yields crucial educational and social benefits for everyone. Educational and social institutions must reflect our diverse society.

Furthermore, underrepresented Asian American populations rightly deserve affirmative action consideration. For example, many University of California campuses included Southeast Asians in their affirmative action plans until Proposition 209 outlawed their efforts. This enabled many qualified Southeast Asians to gain access to some of the most elite University of California campuses.

http://www.aaldef.org/affirm.php

Asian Pacific Americans also benefit tremendously from affirmative action programs:

• The Small Business Administration’s Section 8(a) program has greatly benefited Asian American-owned businesses. The Wall Street Journal estimates that affirmative action helped Asian American-owned businesses more than double their share of contracts in a ten-year period, going from 10.5 percent of contracts in 1986 to 23.7 percent of contracts in 1996. (Sharpe, Rochelle, "Asian-Americans Gain Sharply in Big Program of Affirmative Action". The Wall Street Journal, September 9, 1997)

• In trades like policework, firefighting, and contracting, Asian Pacific Americans are aided tremendously by affirmative action. The case of the San Francisco Fire Department is instructive. As a study by Gabriel J. Chin, Sumi Cho, Jerry Kang & Frank Wu shows:
in 1974, the San Francisco Fire Department had only four APAs out of 1800 firefighters. As a result of court-ordered affirmative action plan, the Department now has 174 APAs. As explained by firefighter Captain Bernie Lee, "without affirmative action . . . Asian Pacific Americans would not have had the opportunity to enter in such large numbers."
http://aapf.org/focus/episodes/oct30.php

Becuase of AA, Asian Americans aobtain a large percentage of contracts etc. And also, it is becuase of the fear of Whites that they had to compete harder with Asians and the fact that college campuses were being taken over by Asians--is the biggest reason why Asians may have to undergo a more selective process--AND NOT beucase unqualified Blacks are taking over and bringing down educational standards.

In regards to Education Daniel Golden’s book the Price of Admissions and the WSJ website has a series of articles which http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/PulitzerDG04052004.htm succinctly describes what Whites do to edge out more competitive students out of the market. The big ticket sports like basketball and football generate money and endowments, thus it is understandable that schools will recruit—however expensive and wealth biased sports such as crew, fencing, etc are not big money makers, yet thousands of largely white students get access to generous scholarships.

Further:

This is a sad but true tale about the reality of college admissions at some of the most elite universities in America. It proves what we've all come to know, that money talks, its who you know, and it pays to be famous. Working hard is for stiffs, especially if you're Asian. There are some beacons of hope to help root out such instituionalized corruption. Caltech is cited as the school setting the trend. But don't hold your breath for the system to change anytime soon.

The number of whites enjoying preference [for college admissions] far outweighs the number of minorities aided by affirmative action. At least 1/3 of the students at elite universities, and at least ½ at liberal arts colleges are flagged for preferential treatment in the admissions process. P6

Students without any non-academic preference are vying for only 40% of the slots at Ivy League schools. P7

Only 3 to 11% of students at America’s most selective universities come from the lowest income quartile. Asian American are disproportionately affected – rebuffed by what appears to be an informal quota system. P11

Senator Bill Frist, who opposes affirmative action for minorities, apparently did not object to preferential treatment for his eldest son… Princeton admission officers were taken aback [Frist’s son background]: his grades and test scores fell far below university standards. On a 1 to 5 scale (5 being lowest) – he was a 5… Frist was a Princeton alumnus and his family donated $25M in 1997… No wonder that the newly appointed Princeton president advised her admissions staff that Frist’s son was a high priority. His son was admitted. In 2004, his Sophomore year he was arrested for drunk driving in. At the time of publication, he had not yet graduated. P12-6

Harvard looks out for its own
Harvard admits fewer than 1 in 10 applicants, turning down more than ½ of candidates with perfect SAT scores. P25 So even if you ace the SAT with a 1600, you’ve only got a 50% chance of being accepted at Harvard. How do you like them apples?

Harvard enrolled 336 children of about the 340 eligible children from the families who serve on its fund raising committee – an astonishing enrollment rate. P26

Legacies [alumni children, donor children, famous children] account for 13% of the student body. P28

72% of the students on the z-list [admission is deferred by 1 year] are alumni children… For Harvard, deferral was a no-lose proposition: either it would discourage underqualified legacies from enrolling without actually rejecting them, thus preserving academic quality and donor goodwill, or the students would mature in their year off, readying them for Harvard. It turns out however that most z-listers are willing to wait for a Harvard education. P39 Why do the wait? Because their 2nd choice option – without having the alumni or donor connection to leverage– will be a huge step down from Harvard for most academically weak students.

For well connected students, the z-list isn’t the only roundabout route to Harvard. Harvard typically admits only 5% of its transfer candidates – but children of alumni and donors enjoy a marked preference. P40

It’s much tougher to get into Harvard than to graduate from it; 97% of those who matriculate emerge with a degree. Therefore honors awarded upon graduation offer a better yardstick for measuring academic prowess. Data show that donor children were far more likely to graduate without honors than the Harvard average. P42

Duke's fundraising engine
Great universities profess to safeguard the quality of their student bodies by constructing a firewall between fundraising and admissions. In reality there is no such wall – not even a shallow trench. Almost every university takes development admits… Like other nonprofits, seeking funding, they’ve discovered the easiest way is to admit the children of the rich. P55

Duke relaxed its standards to admit more than 100 applicants a year, with more than ½ enrolling (3 to 5% of the incoming class). Many of their grateful parents joined Duke’s fundraising group, which led all universities in 1990s in unrestricted gifts from non-alumni parents. P57 Quid pro quo alive and well in North Carolina.

Eager to place as many graduates as possible at top institutions, prep school counselors help colleges identify development admits, often through an unobtrusive phrase or two in a letter of recommendation stating that the parents have been generous to the prep school and are likely to give to their child’s college as well. The prep school’s fund raising office may call the college to reinforce the message. P59

How much does it really cost to buy your child’s way into college? $20,000 is enough to draw the attention of a liberal arts college with an endowment in the $100M range. At an exclusive college, it can take at least $50,000 with some assurance of future, greater donations. At a top 25, a minimum of $100,000; for the top 10, at least $250,000 and often over $1M. p60

For celebrity applicants like Lauren Bush – niece of President GW Bush, there’s no such thing as a deadline. A month after the Princeton deadline had passed, Lauren contacted the university. And despite SAT scores considerably below average for Princeton, and a ‘B’ high school GPA, she was admitted. P93

Brown: Hollywood U
Brown is the college of the famous and celebrity children. However, these celebrity students lag behind their more obscure classmates. 20% of Brown seniors graduate with high honors. 0% of the celebrity children do. 30% of Brown graduates receive distinction, but only 12% of celebrity kids achieve the same. P94

Notre Dame’s average of 1394 for admitted students is artificially deflated by the lower scores of legacies, athletes, and donors. Applicants without preference actually need a 1470 (that is the Harvard average by the way). P120

50% of legacy applicants to selective colleges boasted incomes in the top 25%, as against 39% of nonlegacy applicants. Princeton President William Bowen states “Legacy preference serve to reproduce the high income/high education/while profile that is characteristic of these schools.”… Legacies are more likely to afford private schools, tutors, test prep courses, etc. that usually translate into higher test scores… Alumni children should be high achievers; by definition, they start with the advantage of having at least one college educated parent. To equalize opportunity, alumni children would need to be held to a higher standard, not a lower one. P121

Penn explicitly links alumni child preference and early decision, urging alumni children to apply early for maximum consideration for the legacy affiliation. P122

Alumni contributed $7.1B to higher education in 2005, representing nearly 28% of all private giving to colleges… You gotta believe that some of that is donated in thanks for children already admitted to the alma mater, or in the expectation that a sizeable check will smooth future acceptance. P126

In 1952, Harvard admitted 63% of all applicants. In 2002, it admitted only 11% of overall applicants, but 40% of legacy candidates. P129

The more selective the school, the greater the admissions advantage enjoyed by recruited athletes. And once in college, recruited athletes in golf, fencing, crew, squash, polo, and other upper class sports often sink to the bottom of their classes academically. Why do colleges compromise their admission standards for athletes in marginal sports that don’t enhance ethnic diversity and rarely generate media revenues? The kindest explanation is that they are simply pursuing excellence in all their endeavors. P156 Or could it be that these sports preferentially filter out low income, minority candidates, allowing the university to recruit a wealthy, white student body? Nah.

Since most universities have faculty committees overseeing undergraduate admissions, and since it’s easier to replace an administrator than a professor with lifetime tenure, the last thing any admissions staff wants is to alienate faculty… Faculty children often receive an edge bigger than that given to alumni offspring. P179

33% of faculty children at research universities attend the parent’s institution if offers them a financial incentive to do so. If the institution pays the same share of tuition no matter where the child goes, then only 13% stay. P184

Are you smart enough to be rejected by Vandy?
Vanderbilt’s tuition reimbursement plan had a bizarre twist. It would pay 94% of tuition at any other institution only if the Vanderbilt had rejected the child. The concept was that a faculty child who aspired to Vanderbilt should not be penalized for being turned down, but in practice it offered a perverse incentive to fail. Brilliant Vanderbilt offspring contrived ways of being rebuffed so they could go to Harvard or Yale on Vanderbilt’s dime. Some students would apply to the music program when they couldn’t play a note, knowing that entry required an audition. One conniver showed up purporting to be proficient at the oboe, then surveyed an array of wind instruments before asking ‘Which one is the oboe?’. P186

An asian applicant needs to score 50 points higher on the SAT than other applicants just to have the same chance of admission. Being an alumni child, by contrast, confers a 160 point advantage… Black and Hispanic lag 100-125 points below whites. P204


We're number 1!
In 1999 US News anointed the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) as the nation’s best university. How could a tiny engineering school surpass Harvard, Yale, Stanford, and even MIT? Yielding to critical pressure from the established elite, the magazine changed its criteria. Caltech, which otherwise, might have stayed on the top for years, instead slid back to the bottom half of the top 10, saving the Ivies and other powerhouses from perennial embarrassment. Yet there’s good reason for putting Caltech a notch above the rest: the Pasadena school comes closer than any other major American university to admitting a student body purely on academic merit. Caltech doesn’t compromise admissions standards to attract donations or foster to a wealthy alumni base. Nobody gets into Caltech because their families are rich, famous, or well connected; they get because of their talent, period. P261 I could not have said it better. – Ben Sharma, Caltech Grad, class of 1988.

Caltech admissions committees hold alumni and faculty children applicants to a higher standard. Being a legacy could have a negative effect. P262

Without underperforming rich kids dragging down the overall quality, the average SAT score in 2003 was 1505, including a remarkable 775 in math… About 85% of the students graduated from public high schools vs. 40-45% at the Ivies. P263
Items quoted directly from the book http://bensbookblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/price-of-admission-by-daniel-golden.html

It’s funny. You don’t see Brice McMillions agonizing over how his daddy pulled strings to get the job or Sheila Trust Fund on getting to Brown. Most Whites don’t have to think about why they got the job or got a grant. Bobby Knuckledragger doesn’t have to think that because his Uncle knows the fire chief he got in despite modest scores, But Blacks always have to agonize over these fabled benefits, when it is obviously not the case.

Anonymous said...

Ward c. is a product of his environment--California.

I moved to Cali in high school, every black person I came across that lived around rich whites was negatively affected. Many blacks would not want to admit they were black, such as Tiger, most of the rich white kids believed I was in the Honors classes because of AA, even though Cali was three to four years behind Boston were I came from. Even though I went through four years of high school with these rich whites and achieved straight A's they thought I had an automatic ticket to college because I am black.The attitude of most of the teachers and administrators was that blacks were good at sports but educationally inferior. All the Blacks that grew up in this city internalized these beliefs, all of the black males did not even try in school just excelled at sports (what was expected)many were smart as hell but never tried. Many a white woman teacher would kick the black males out of class for talking even though these students were in a group of people talking, the white woman teacher would kick out the black male. once when I had a substitute becasue my teacher had a heart attack I was accused of cheating because I finished my Spanish test early and was given detention. Many a teacher had a talk with the substitute to tell her I was a good kid . Many white woman inthe classroom are subjecting black males to negative stereotypes I have seen it over and over again especially in Cali. So believe Ward C. is a product of his environment. In Cali they hold you as exceptional if you are smart not like those other black people, many blacks growing u p in Cali internalize these feelings of having to apologize for being black. I happy I grew up in Boston were we are Proud and Intelligent and we do not week the approval of massa.

Anonymous said...

OK Moon, the biggest problem with your screed is you equate AA with legacy. AA is a government mandated program. It tells universities what to do. Legacy is a purely voluntary deal. It exists for many reasons. One, the university continually comes to successful graduates for contributions. I know Ive had five letters over the last couple of years as well as a couple of phone calls soliciting contributions. Those who donate generously (Im not one) might well deserve some consideration. Their contributions make tuition lower (relative) and do indeed make it possible to admit those who cant afford the ride. Its a different issue.

You also bemoan athletic scholarships (which MANY blacks benefit from BTW) Athletes generate tons of cash to the school, in return they get a free education. A pretty good deal if the athlete takes advantage. Not so good if they dont. You state that lesser sports have more whites in them....therefore what? Should athletic scholarships be scrapped? Should only money generating athletes get a free ride? I bet alot of womens softball players might have an issue with that.
I take issue with you saying that the lesser white sports athletes "sinking to the bottom of their class" total BS. I remember the famous brouhaha with the Duke lacrosse team. We all said they were drunken party animals...turned out none had a cumulative gpa below 3.0. Pretty good at Duke. Can the Florida state football team say the same? But then again we were wrong about EVERYTHING there werent we?
Legacies and athletes will always get in. The reason is they are money makers for the school.It is the rest of us that compete for the other spots. Fairness has to enter the equation at some point. You seem to suggest that since legacies and athletes get in outside the usual structure then so should under performing minorities. And lets be honest here, we do indeed under perform in relation to other groups. Faulty logic. You must have the goods if you dont contribute in some other way. It seems to me that instead of constantly whining because the bar is too high, you should concentrate efforts on raising black kids' performance to reach the bar.

You need to explain to me how diversity in a university will make me understand statistics 440 better.You throw out stuff like: ""racial diversity yields crucial educational and social benefits for everyone""..How do you arrive at that? Unless Im sitting next to an asian dude and copy from him, diversity does nothing to help me understand the material. Nothing whatsoever. The "diversity" con is just another way to cry for a lower bar for under performing black kids.
"HEY, sure my kid doesnt have the stuff to get in, but your kid will benefit just by being next to him"
Total horseshit. If that is indeed the case then why does everybody here tout the educational prowess of HBC's? Not too much diversity there huh?
COME ON NOW. The course of action should be getting black kids to perform on par with others, not continually whining to lower the bar for us "po ignant negroes"

Anonymous said...

look at the comment above, many whites believe, like Cali, that blacks are underachievers, that is why your dumb ass needs to be around more minorities, like many dumbasses you refuse to acknowledge history, HBC's were started because blacks could not attend college and they were started by massa for his mulatto children, diversity will make your dumbass not be scared or stereotype, you need to take a history class! Sounds like the same ignorant white person I went to high school with.Steal our math and science and biology (Romans and Greeks) and then depict us as ignorant? puh-leeze!

P.S. why are white people constantly on black blogs constantly playing devils advocate? I'm talking about the ones such as above that clearly have no black friends but they want to constantly express their wicked opinions, why?

field negro said...

"This is a sad but true tale about the reality of college admissions at some of the most elite universities in America. It proves what we've all come to know, that money talks,"

Amen black moon! Sadly, many of the commenters here defending the status quo, forget about a little thing called "legacy admissions." We wink at that but kill AA policies because some kid from the inner city didn't score as high on the SAT's. You can't excuse legacy admissions simply because it is finanacially beneficial to the institution, but condemn AA admisions because it somehow takes away from white students who want to get in. The rich white kid with mediocre grades took someones place too.

Dragon Horse said...

DarkMoon:

"-WHITE WOMEN who have been tremendously helped "

In business that is true, not in academia. Why? Because white women are like Asians now. There are far more white women entering and especially graduating from college than white males, so any school has a huge amount of white female applicants because coming out of high school they have better grades and test scores (on average) similar to Asians.

So no what you said is false.

Field:

If you notice what I said, I believe more than once, i think legacy admissions are bad.

That in no way should allow you or anyone else to take the focus off of black children.

Its like...well someone somewhere got some undue benefit so why do I have to be competitive shouldn't I just "get in"?

That is what you are saying and I'm sure you can see how that logic is false, if that is the case why should I try at work when I known someone somewhere (likely in my organization) got hired or promoted due to "contacts".

Lets try to keep the focus on the core problem. The core problem is black kids are not competitive on average....so even if legacy admissions were eliminated today and so was AA you would still have a major short fall of black kids in schools, and a slight one for whites (with Asians for the most part taking the seats whites had, not blacks).

So what does that solve for black kids (on average)...? NOTHING.

This is why your focus is way way off and stinks of excuse making and counter-point for the sake of avoidance. I know your logic is not that weak or you would have never got a good enough score on the LSAT to get in Law School...

The point of what I an Anon is getting at is that the problem is not in the schools, it is not current discrimination (not in schools for the most part in 2008...although I would agree business has a lot of discrimination so a different issue) the issue is cultural.

This is the point of all of it.

This is not just about AA. If you recognize the ROOT problem and not the bandage solution that still allow hemorrhaging...you can solve a long term problem with a long term solution.

So for all those people who say we need a Marshall Plan for the ghettos or we need even more money for schools (although most urban schools are better funded than poor white rural schools and the whites still outscore black kids on SATs)...I want to know what the problem is, not what the symptom is.

All of this is a symptom. That's what people are failing to get because they aren't really interested in talking about the real problem although I have seen Field hint at it on this site from time to time in his own post, it seems that his racial cheerleading groupism +socialism does not allow him to fully connect the dots although he sees them.

SOOOOOOOOOO....

What Dark Moon said was excuse after excuse to drive up emotionalism and down logical thinking so we don't get to the root of the problem.

None of that means crap to me although almost all of what he says is true.

I don't care about Obama and George Bush, I don't care about Legacy admissions either...

Just like Tae Yung and Jimmy Wu's parents don't give a crap about any of that when they bring home B's and C's and think they can skate by because some white kids is doing it. Tae Yung knows he is about to be screamed at and get his little @$$ beat and his parents will probably slap him harder if he makes excuses for his poor performance by crying about "well Tommy 6 Pack white boy" does it.

What position do you think is better for blacks.

The current position, near or at the bottom trying to use government to edge their way in the door and still dropping out at a high rate once they get in...


Or being like the Asian kids whose so competitive they put whites to shame and tell the government "we can do it ourselves, please get rid of AA so we can take the white kids seats..."

Which is better?


Notice none of this says you don't fight discrimination. There was an Asian kid who just sued Harvard because he didn't get in although his scores were far higher than the majority of applicants.


When you are competitive or even SUPERIOR and you aren't getting yours you have a much stronger leg to stand on when you make claims of discrimination and it is more obvious and easier to prove.

Dark Moon pats his little kid on the head and says "oh a "C'" is okay don't sweat it"...don't worry you will get in college or I will scream racism because the white man owes you a place in the university. Oh and screw the Asian kid or whoever else worked harder than you...remember somewhere in America a white boy got in to an Ivy League because of his daddy so don't you feel bad about not studying and test prepping...nope...don't worry about it you don't need to work hard. LOL


1) Can someone cut the bull crap and answer my questions? Why can't blacks compete against whites and Asians when they have the same income level?

2) If we get rid of standardized test in a nation where there is no standardized curriculum and grading strategy who is it we are supposed to judge what student is superior? So we do away with any notion of meritocracy and just do a lottery? I keep hearing people cry and bitch about SATs but no one, not one has a better system that is more subjective, in fact they want more objective race based or generic criteria, which tells me they don't care about meritocracy they just want IN. If that is the case why do we have grades at all? For what? If we aren't going to measure performance in a way that is somewhat equal what is the point of grades?"



I'm going to keep answering these questions until Field or someone else mans up and answers in a logical manner.

Dragon Horse said...

"but condemn AA admisions because it somehow takes away from white students who want to get in. The rich white kid with mediocre grades took someones place too."

Another question field since you are so fixated on whites.

More than likely an Asian kid was also screwed in this scenario who had better grades and test scores than the white, black, or Hispanic kid.

You do believe Asians are minorities who face racism in this country don't you?

In that case would you support an end to all special consideration (I.e. legacy, AA, etc)?

If not why do you think it is good to screw other minorities who work far harder in the hopes of being treated in a meritocratic way?

Anonymous said...

If the blacks that are screaming for lower admission requirements werent under achieving....they would be able to get in and wouldnt need a lower bar. Logic anyone?

Universities need big money from alumni. Alumni expect something in return. Doesnt seem unreasonable to me. Im sure Mr. Cosby made a hefty contribution to Temple and Im sure his offspring would no doubt be able to enter there.

Why must everyone who disagrees with you have their race questioned? Do blacks have to adhere to one specific point of view? Are we simply cardboard characatures from sea to shining sea? Or is that the only bullet you have in your arsenal? Its sad that Connerly has to be attacked racially because his point of view differs from yours. You assume Im white (im not, but who cares) because I think blacks should work harder to compete with others who are kicking our collective asses? Please. Do you disagree that we can do better? Do you disagree that we must focus more on education? If so, say so. If not, thanks for agreeing with me.

Perhaps youre one of those negroes who equates high academic achievement with whiteness and therefore a race traitor? The flip side of that is you equate ignorance with being black. Just who is the white bigot now?

Dragon Horse said...

Another question for Field or anyone else who dares to think logically...

If all special consideration was eliminated but grades, SAT scores...

Would blacks benefit at a group? Would the percentage of blacks admitted to colleges and universities go up when people like George Bush don't get into Princeton or even Georgetown?

HELL NO.

The group that would benefit the most from this situation are the kids would have the highest grades and SAT scores, they will be Asian.

Second group would be middle class whites who have no connection or first generation college students (which there are a lot of in this country).

Blacks would likely drop in admission, not increase.

So this tells me none of this nonsense said in this post by Whitney or Blackmoon is getting at the root of the problem.

So please answer my questions in my last two post as highlighted in bold and stop buck dancing for socialism.

Dragon Horse said...

Anon:

In their heart I they already know at this point the majority of blacks in this country can't compete head on head for admission with whites and Asians (and in some areas even Hispanics).

They know this but don't want to say this because their self esteem is based on racialism and to say anything about the "home team" as negative they feel is an attack on them personally.

Reality is the reason these blacks can't compete is exactly what you have said.

Their household structure and what their parents value and pass on to the children. Until that changes nothing else matters.

It doesn't matter if you have a Marshall Plan for the ghetto, it doesn't matter if you completely revamp every single urban school in the country.

None of that will change what happens from the time the child leaves school in the afternoon to when they come back (if they come in) the next day. That is out of the hands of the state.

The black people on this site (for the most part) are intelligent enough to know that and will defend these bad black parents all day long but won't even think of raising their kids that way...because they know better, just as Obama's kids will be raised far more like Tommy Li and John Wu and not like Lakesha Jackson and Jaukeem Thompson in the hood. Obama knows what the deal is and will teach his children the right way even if he will temper what he says politically as not to piss off black socialists.

Nothing will change though...blacks will still have lower grades and SAT scores on average compared to other races in their same income level and they will still cry for special consideration because they are black even when they grew up middle class...this will be a never ending cycle of low self esteem, low standards, and self hatred.

Anonymous said...

You speak far more eloquently that I Mr. Horse. But we are saying the same thing.
It hurts to see our people at the bottom and digging. It hurts to see so many engaged in selective blindness and it stings beyond measure to watch so many whine and moan at massas door with a tin cup.
I think the problem is that it isnt very pleasant to point the finger at ourselves and realize it will be years and generations before we see any progress. Its so much easier to point the finger outward. It feeds the victimology monster and it soothes us at some level. We feel better blaming others because...well.. it just aint our fault. We dont have to work harder. We dont have to change our ways. We just sit in our soggy diapers and whine. Sooner or later the whites will feel sorry for us and give us what we want. To some of us that is embarassing and disheartening.
Instead of regurgitating the same tired militant pap you hear on so many black blogs, visit an inner city high school. I wont say another word about it, just visit an all-black public high school. THEN try to figure out why we are where we are.

field negro said...

anon. and dragon horse, you are both doing a good job of stating the obvious. Yes blacks underachieve academically, yes Asian students make better grades in school. At least some Aisan students. (Here in Philly Vietnamese and Laotian students under perform even the Af. Am. ones) so what dragon horse likes to say about Asians being this super group is a myth. But let's move on from that.

I will acknowledge that Af. Am students lag behind other groups academically, and traditionally do poorly in school. But there are a number of reasons for that: The first one being a poor family structure and a generation of parents who did not stress education to them, because their parents ( or should I say parent) didn't. We know the stories about the lack of black parents at the PTA meetings and the big deal black folks make of a high school graduation, as if it is an educational milestone. But come on, just pointing your fingers at the problem and not looking at the root causes is simplistic and illogical. And it plays into the hands of hypocrites like Ward Connerly, --a man who benefited form AA himself-- who now wants to close the door for others.

Has it ever occured to you anon and dragon horse that if we made an effort to get these children into colleges that more than likely their children would understand the importance of a proper education? Did it ever occur to you that one of the reasons we have these problems with black people is because there is no legacy of education in many of these families.

Look, both my parents benefited from Af. Action,(PhD, and Ed.D Michigan State late sixties)and unlike Ward and people like Clarence Thomas, they will tell you that they did. And they couldn't raise two children to value education ---one a Fulbright Scholar and a Doctor, and the other [the dumbest in the entire family]a lawyer---, if they didn't. But if you guys have your way, kids will be shut out of the academic experience and a chance to graduate college because they had to overcome various external obstacles which might have caused their grades to suffer. And save me the "pull your boot strap" speech, I am talking about kids, who inspite of all the negative influences, are really trying. Would you ship them off to some trade school or community college?

Ward would, and he doesn't care. But I do, and thankfully, so do many of the people who are charged with making these decisions.

Acanthus said...

I gotta come back to this:

"Black people want to take over the country."

You say that like it's a bad thing? Have you asked yourself "Why don't black people want to take over the country?". Would that be a great motivator for blacks as a people?

Anonymous said...

What would I have them do Field? I would have them do exactly what all students do who dont have the grades to get into a top tier school. Go to a two year community college, get excellent grades then finish up at a higher college (assuming they get the grades then). Coincedentally thats exactly what white, hispanic and asian kids who get subpar grades do.
You act like by not giving them special treatment you put obstacles in their way. You need to purge that mentality from yourself. We are not owed special treatment because we are black, we are owed the same treatment period.
It has occurred to me that earlier intervention in their academic careers is needed. Not just "getting them in". Everybody in the pool is judged by the same criterion. Some middle class white kids have hurdles too, an alcoholic father, bipolar mother, abuse, neglect. It isnt race specific.
Affirmative action is wrong because it discriminates based on race. Period. We all like it because it discriminates FOR us. I doubt many bald people would object to special priviliges for them, nor would people with large noses. That doesnt make it OK.
Most here are well-meaning but off target. Put the time and energy that is expended whining for special treatment into education our damn kids! We wouldnt have to whine then. Like Horse said; You dont hear asians demanding more AA. Only those who cant make it by the current standards cry for the standards to be changed.
Now that youre here Field, try to answer Horses question. Everybody else has bailed on it. You might have an idea or two on how to rasie our scores? Or not.

Dragon Horse said...

Field:

Thank you for responding.

I never said Asians were a super group, I said "on average", average means there are some people who fall above and below the mean automatically. I would expect some Asians not to do well. As far as subgroups of Asians doing badly some of the worse are Hmong in Minneapolis area, Vietnamese in Houston and L.A. area do quite well but there is a community where you live, and even in New Orleans (or was) that did very poorly.. The average Asian in America is not living like that, that is a minority.

Something else of interest, the Asian poverty rate is 11%...but their average income is above whites? That tells me new immigrants are not often rich and income inequality is very high in their community, not shocking since over half were born outside America and contrary to popular black leftist myth, many immigrant Asians come here with little to nothing...and live in ghettos and work in them to. I know you don't think Asians open stores in the hood where they are routinely robbed, murdered, raped because they love the ghetto. LOL

Clarence Thomas admits he benefited from AA and wishes there was no AA.

Read this review:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law.com%2Fjsp%2Farticle.jsp%3Fid%3D1202421827466&ei=XL-DSIGzEpay8ASmxeDLCw&usg=AFQjCNFQQnydi1mk8PiKSMTU9UC0R1niZw&sig2=AB4jjEh3bxu8Chs25EGJlg

He said AA made his degree "worthless". I think that is hyperbole but that is another story.

Both your immigrant parents benefited from AA, so in other words they took an African American's seat when they did not suffer Jim Crow here or Slavery here (I don't care with Brits did in Jamaica). Nice.

"Would you ship them off to some trade school or community college? "

Yes and they can work there way up. I know people who have done it. I know a sista right now who went to community college, got her stuff together, transferred to a 3rd tier university and went to grad school at a second tier school in her field (Johns Hopkins SAIS)...I've known her since high school and now I actually work with her.

This situation is not unusual, I'm sure you know that, I bet you can find a lot of white kids who have done the exact same thing.

You know what she learned in that? She learned better study habits, she learned the value of education by struggling, she learned how to budget money (working while in school for a long period), she learned a lot of things people don't tend to learn when you give them something.

What you are saying is...if I give someone "A" they learn the benefit of "A" and pass that benefit on to their children. That is some times true, but I don't believe (in my life experience) that is typical, what is typical is they take it for granted (like George W. Bush obviously did).

Also you did not address the issue of the Asian kid who worked his butt off and got screwed by the white kid like George Bush and the AA program made for minorities and women. That kid is doing what (s)he is supposed to do, living the American dream.

They work hard and they expect to be rewarded for that work based on merit. That is (was at least) what blacks were fighting for during the civil rights movement, an equal chance to be judged by the "content of their character" and not their race.

So what you are telling the Asian kid is screw all that crap, that doesn't exist, and it won't ever exist, and we aren't fighting for that, instead we are fighting for the biggest handout possible and you better get yours because I'm going to screw I can't help if you work too hard and mess up the curb.

Nice lesson.

I want all AA for schools banned. I would like income consideration, but reality is (as you know) poor whites and poor Asians will still benefit significantly more than blacks, black entrance will still decrease but middle class black kids aren't competitive with middle class whites and Asians on average (and in some cases Hispanics).

If AA is eliminated maybe that will force some parents to get serious with their children and force some kids to get serious with goals that will effect the rest of their lives. Maybe they need some reality. Nothing is wrong with that, we all have to start somewhere. You seem to think someone deserves to go to college because they try hard. Think about that for a second.

How many of these kids will get in due to AA and drop out because they simply are not smart or disciplined enough to finish 4 years? Then they drop out with debt. Maybe a taste of community college or fair competition would have gave them realistic goals. Nothing is wrong with trade school. Nothing at all, there is no shame in it and if you think there is then you are an elitist (which is typical for leftists they all are). Someone needs to work at factories, do skilled trades.

In the end that is far and away better than no job, working at McDonald, or selling drugs is it not? Can you support a child as a welder? I think so.

Chen Li and Tony Wu work hard to and they are just kids too and they know because their are Asian they face discrimination and still might not get into a school because they get screwed from both sides (white racism and AA for blacks and Hispanics) but hey...they ain't black so screw them right?


I feel proud that when I went to grad school there was no AA involved. You couldn't tell from my zip code or name that I'm black and there is no AA for school admittance in the state I went to grad school in. That was merit and I can tell my kids that I know what it takes for them to succeed as I went through it straight with no chaser myself.

I want it to be "sink or swim" time for people so they can feel what competition is...man up or sit the hell down and sweep my floor or do some construction work until you figure it out...drive a truck...go ice fishing in Alaska a few seasons...all legitimate work. Everyone is not supposed to go to college anyway...they really aren't. That is another socialist dream.

In reality AA is not helping the bottom of the bowl because those kids don't even finish high school let alone think of applying for a college.

Dragon Horse said...

Anon:

You and I are in sync on this bro. :-) If even 50% of blacks thought like us it would be a sea change in African America...good news is blacks are becoming more conservative as the Pew Poll that came out last year told quite well (Blackprof had a fit over it)...its a good sign though. Sooner we marginalize these "red doper diaper baby" left over from the 60's the better black folks gonna be.

field negro said...

"How many of these kids will get in due to AA and drop out because they simply are not smart or disciplined enough to finish 4 years?"

Not as many as you think. It's another myth that anti AA people like to put out there. The truth of the matter is that most of these Af Am kids do quite well once they are given a chance. And kids from HBCU-- where they make an effort to admit the Af Am kids
who apply--, always go on to do quite well in the working world.

And you are right about me wanting
open admissions for everyone. If I had my way every damn person that applied would get in. Period. But that's just the the Socialist in me talking.

And anon, I keep telling dragon horse how to improve Af. Am scores and how to get them in to college, but you don't want to see it my way. You, my friend, are blinded by your ideology. Which is fine, so am I. But my way is better than yours. How do I know? Well, look where your way has gotten us. Two A-merry-cas, and they are growing farther apart.

Dark Moon said...

My assertions were quoted verbatim on websites provided with links, thus your attempt to minimize the evidence provided as pandering to emotion and illogic is ridiculous. If you can believe that the anti-intellectual argument purported by McWhorter and company is the most potent factor impeding Blacks to compete on the same levels as Whites and Asians, then this whole argument against the ills of promoting Blacks through affirmative action is utterly ridiculous. Blacks have only recently received rights comparable to whites in the last 40 years—and to expect us to quantum leap into flag waving success in such a short space of time is absolutely delusional. It is remarkable feat of sheer will that we have survived and contributed so much to this society and to all you hand ringing Blacks worried about non-Blacks think and always feeling that we underachieved—F.U. A lot of us are a generation from the field or the ghetto and what I achieved I am thankful for those who suffered and died for it. No matter how much you achieve to many you are still a N*gger—ask Oprah when she was seen less than a bag lady at Hermes.

It cannot be reiterated enough that Blacks have been moving steadily toward a modicum of middle class and Black women in particular have made significant inroads into college campuses and are showing higher graduating rates.

The Journal for Blacks in Higher Education holds data from 1990 to 2007 showed that the black male graduation rate increased from 28 percent to 37 percent. Still, black women at Howard and universities and colleges across the country are surpassing Black males in large percentages. In 2007 black women had a graduation of rate of 48 percent an 11 point difference to black men.

THUS----WOMEN in general go to college and graduate in greater numbers than males in either race. The assertion regarding White women is not false. Reflect on the number of White women before the Civil Rights movement and the ensuing Affirmative action policies from the 60’s and 70’s and then look at the number of Women that are graduating now. Affirmative Action propelled White women leap years ahead of most other groups. So my assertion is NOT False, especially as many still benefit from those same policies after college through business, loans, contracts etc.

The steady increase of college entrants and graduates is promising although it could be better, shows that Blacks are working on it—and should be counted as a miracle—given the psychopathic history that Blacks ENJOYED) in America. Look at Native Americans who labor under a bane of devastation and loss in which they are offered AA policies and scholarships, much more financial assistant and grants than Blacks could ever hope for—however their rates are even lower than Blacks despite their smaller population in America.

And news flash! Most people think AMERICANS in general are STUPID! Not just Blacks bringing down the curve. Many white folks probably wouldn’t be able to point out where Sri Lanka on a map, what is the EU, how the IMF works, s or who the president of France is—so to lay the ills of the education system on a miniscule number of Blacks who are bringing everybody down is disgustingly ingenuous and DELUSIONAL.

Nevertheless, are numbers still flag against Whites and Asians and thus it is utterly ridiculous to believe that there is unending phalanx of Blacks with negligible SAT and ACT scores that are getting into college? I ask again, if meritocracy was the defining characteristics for entrance into top tier skills than the campus body would overwhelmingly favor East Asian. That is not the case, despite the small percentage relative to the population, because most whites do not want to compete or be on a campus where they are the minority. Asians priced themselves out of the market, yet it is easier to blame Blacks and Hispanics for supposedly taking their slots, our rates, although climbing are not nearly as high as White or Asian to make any appreciable differences on college campuses.

And a note to the foaming at the mouth anonymous---HBCU’s were specifically created because white ignorant crackers like you didn’t want to learn with or believe that Blacks were capable of exercising their little gray cells. Separate but Equal and Jim Crow— legacies of the f*cked up entitlement programs created by Whites—but hey that wasn’t a special and unique brand of Affirmative Action either NOW WAS IT? Your asinine belief that HBCU’s are lower than legitimate majority white schools is the reason why AA policies need to be in place. You mean to tell me a graduate at Spelman or Howard’s is of less importance than some degree from U of Wyoming, with a BA in Cattle insemination ? Tell it to the Joshua Packwood (white MALE) who became valedictorian at Morehouse. He has his pick of Fortune 500 companies to work for.

The other crap from the anon about legacies and athletic scholarships being different than AA is not the pixels and html text to respond—because it so astoundingly stupid and beyond bizarro outlandish. If you honestly believe that legacies, money, and worthless scholarships don’t make an appreciable difference to who gets in and who they overwhelmingly benefit—than field should just cut off the comments and go home.

I’m just shocked beyond belief that the usual inhuman rationalization and vitriol that is thrown on Blacks as a group like sulfuric acid. If you don’t try you are a N*gger and sub-human. If you try—you are still a N*gger because of AA. Then you spend your whole life trying to prove that you are human and that what they assume about who you are as a person, your intelligence your very core is wrong. Connerly does this by being a Tom. Or McWorter writes a book.

Either way you’re f*cked.

Whitney B. said...

Sure were a lot of Anon's posting here:

I would like to address the Anon @ 2:05 AM: There was CASH in my family. I chose not to use it. So, stuff your little down-talking to me. I have never relied on AA and will not do so. I know how to work the system in other ways, which don't include cheating, just negotiating and not playing the fem-card. I am not some naive chick off the streets! Weave and duck...that's my cover.

I have had two careers: one back in the day when women weren't considered significant in advertising, and now I am in Construction Management. I do not and will not use my fem-card as a tool to move forward. I am the glass ceiling, just as my grandmother was (better educated than I) as the first woman VP of a major corporation back in the early 50's.

I am not some whiny little snot nosed beatch!!! You, as a man (based on your chat) should get a grip on the real world.

I support AA for the lower income folks, of all colors, stripes and genders because I have seen what a significant change has occured with AA.

I've even been a part of it, promoting women if they were QUALIFIED to be promoted. I've promoted more men than women because I go for the quals, and in industrial construction (a man's world) we women folk are far out numbered. When I was in advertising, women were breaking in big, to it was easier for me to promote them.

Enuf of this sheeat.

Whitney Brown

Dragon Horse said...

Field:

LOL Everybody plays everybody wins? Are you serious? Come on you know that is not just physically impossible (in space), but everyone would want to go to Harvard or Yale, and when they flunk out they will want grade inflation, teachers will have to dumb down assignments for fear of failing too many of the underprivileged.

I believe strongly in synergy. I have no doubt (because I have been in both situations) that when you sort kids by ability and you get a class with the best and brightest (yes there were always be a Pookie who is not that bright that got in solely on AA and there will always be a moron like George Bush) but for the most part kids at top Ivy League schools and tier 2 schools are more intelligent than Anonymous state school and people who deny this don't know and the only thing I can tell them is look at proxies for intelligence like SATs, IQ tests, achievements after school...on average this is true even if it is not always true.

I know that in those situations there is competition, intense, so much that kids are ripping pages out of library books to screw other kids who have the same assignment to get a few more points on their paper.

THAT IS GOOD. COMPETITION IS GOOD. That kind of competitive attitude in the business world or in Big Law is not a bad thing, that is what drives the capitalist engine of this country and what you suggest would water that down to nothing.

Sorry, we do need some standards and just because I want to be a CEO of a Fortune 500 or Major Nonprofit, etc. does not mean I should be one. This is the real world and we need competent people.

What you suggest would do away with any sense of meritocracy, instead of trying to improve it (because we know it is corrupted) you argue just getting rid of it and creating a society of mediocrity. No thanks.

China, does not have that society, Germany does not have that society, Japan and South Korea do not have that society and they will be jumping in the street if we install your type of educational system because in two generations they will own this country 100%, far more than they do now. Well...what is left of this country.

You can't make public policy for the nation with a bleeding heart...some times giving the store away will not solve the problem, not in the long run.

Darkmoon


"Nevertheless, are numbers still flag against Whites and Asians and thus it is utterly ridiculous to believe that there is unending phalanx of Blacks with negligible SAT and ACT scores that are getting into college? I ask again, if meritocracy was the defining characteristics for entrance into top tier skills than the campus body would overwhelmingly favor East Asian. That is not the case, despite the small percentage relative to the population, because most whites do not want to compete or be on a campus where they are the minority. Asians priced themselves out of the market, yet it is easier to blame Blacks and Hispanics for supposedly taking their slots, our rates, although climbing are not nearly as high as White or Asian to make any appreciable differences on college campuses."

That's false. Asians only make up 4% of the U.S. population and about 1/3 of them live in California. Whites make up 66%, you do the math...most campuses will never be majority Asian even if every Asian outscored every single white.

You are not thinking.

Berkley is now over 50% Asian in Cali...and Harvard is about 20%...

Read this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/education/edlife/07asian.html

There is no way Harvard could statistically be mostly Asian.

Even if 10% of Asians had the scores to get into Harvard and 6% of whites did...it is obvious by population that Asians can't be the majority on campus.

Lets try to think before we write a little...like I said liberals aren't too good at math.

"Blacks through affirmative action is utterly ridiculous. Blacks have only recently received rights comparable to whites in the last 40 years—and to expect us to quantum leap into flag waving success in such a short space of time is absolutely delusional."

So you are saying a middle class 18 year old black kid can't get the same score on an SAT as a Middle class Asian or Hispanic kid because of Jim Crow that his parents might have been a child in and his grandparents lived in?

So if the Asian kid had parents that were refugee boat people or the Mexican kid has parents so short from malnutrition as a child in Southern Mexico and barely literate in Spanish or English than that don't count for anything right?

Once again you are not thinking.

I posted info that shows blacks can't even compete at the same income level. So a black man making 100 K a year has children who can't get good grades due to Jim Crow 40 years ago?

Wow...

That might work with white people but I know better, I'm black.


"Your asinine belief that HBCU’s are lower than legitimate majority white schools is the reason "

Anon can speak for himself, but reality is most HBCU's (but for the most elite) don't have good standards (by every measurable standard)...what criteria are you using to measure success? Obviously Hampton or Howard are top notch, not many people will deny that but Texas Southern and Norfolk States? Get real. These are like 4th tier schools. One reason they are that low is since integration a large portion of the smarter blacks who would have went to HCBU go to integrated schools so the ones at HCBU are not the same AVERAGE quality as generations ago. Actually this is probably a good sign.

Blacks have been moving into the middle class at a fast clip but there children are not more educated really as they are still not competitive.

If you took away AA in college acceptance what would the pace of middle class movement look like then?

The rest of your argument is so weak I won't respond...truth is there are many PhDs in Engineering that don't know what the IMF is, that is not a sign of education and definately not general intelligence that is just a random fact that may or may not be important to your life or field.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of Europeans and Asians who don't know what the IMF is either and over all Americans are pretty literate in the sciences, despite your leftist red doper diaper baby hatred.

http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/07/americans_are_scientific_geniu.php

I can't speak for Anon, but the type of school system I want would eliminate all such "extra points" and be judged completely on grades, SATs, and any outstanding shows of leadership, community service, etc.

That's it.

Let the chips fall where they may based on meritocracy, or as close as we can get to it. I might give special consideration for people who live below the poverty line, but nothing for race, ethnicity, religion, sex, etc.

I would keep limited AA for business because I do recognize racism in that and it is easier to discriminate because it is far more subjective

See now that subjectivity is not better than objectivity???? Standardized testing is good much better than some random analysis like..."I don't like her hair" or "he doesn't have proper leadership qualities"

Also calling people "Crackers" and other low class racial names is hypocritical and ignorant. I think we can do better than to be like those you pretend to hate.

Anonymous said...

Dragon Horse, wtf?

you are generalizing all AA as being under acheivers, you need to move to Boston, and generalizing all AA parents as the same your argument shows your complete ignorance and racial hatred just like those cheating as white folks I went to high school with,let me generalize most rich white kids cheat that how they achieve such good scores. ALL THE WHITE KIDS IN MY HIGH SCHOOL WERE THREE TO FOUR YEARS BEHIND THE CURRICULUM IN BOSTON SCHOOLS. Because I didn't cheat I earned a 3.5 in Honors classes most of my white classmates cheated. why are white people on black sites, can't we have anything you don't steal. It kills me in History how the white man stole all our knowledge and wealth and states that AA are underacheivers, go the your own KKK site!

Dragon Horse said...

No I never said once all AAs are underachievers. Is English your first language? If so stop embarrassing yourself. I'm AA and I'm not an underachiever, trust me.

Anonymous said...

African americans as a group are under acheiving, clearly. Not all African Americans under acheive.....GOT IT?

I must have missed Fields recipie for raising our kids' performance. Unless its, "let them into 1st ans 2nd tier colleges, theyll be fine". If thats the case, I wont waste my breath with my suggestions.

All this back and forth is fine but the hard fact is that the vast majority of Americans want to end AA. It was on the ballot in Michigan and, thanks to a dismally pathgetic display by folks like BAMN (by any means necessary). Running around like Nazi brownshirts shouting down discussion groups. Moblike displays in the streets, etc... Whatever goodwill folks might have had to AA quickly evaporated and it was voted out as it was in Cali. Wherever anti-AA legislation is on the ballot, it will win. Not because of the usual black socialist reason "white racism" but because people dont want race-based discrimination. Asians voted against AA. Hispanics voted against AA. Whites voted against AA. Many blacks voted against it.

Whatever your opinion about affirmative action, we better come up with a plan to go forward without it. That starts in the home.

Dragon Horse said...

Anon:

I've been trying to find exit poll data for Prop 209, but it is hard to find on the net..I did find this from Washington Post:

"Ultimately, the effort to build Asian American support for California's Proposition 209 was largely unsuccessful: As many as 61 percent of the state's Asian Americans voted against the measure, according to exit polls."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/affirm/stories/affirm062198.htm

it is obvious why...when AA was banned their admissioned the top level U. Cali rates skyrocketed.

Something else left out is that black admission did not decrease it just decreased to top schools but the blacks at those schools had an increased graduation rate...imagine that... LOL

If I was Asian I would be a damn fool to support a policy that discriminates against me, not like I don't get discrimination from whites ever, then I have to get discriminated against by the government after I work hard? HELL NO. Who would do that?

Afrodite said...

I agree that AA needs to be expanded...atleast that is what my heart is saying....The problem is both racism and economics and if we deal with the economic situatio then we'll kill two birds w/ one stone. after all most blacks are poor in the country.


HOWEVER my head is telling me that racism is still alive and and white privilige is still alive as well. If a poor white kid benefits from affirmitive action and a black poor kid does as well...and if they apply for a job..theres a 90% chance the white kid would get the job. Thats the truth...so what do we do.


I know "FAIRLANE" is right...
the problem is that race has always been used as a destracting divider between poor whites and blacks. And in a society where its all about being better than the next person, it's easy to fall into the "I'm poor and white and the gov't could give two shits about me BUT ATLEAST I'M NOT BLACK" mindset. SO many fail to realize that even since the beginning the "elite" has smartly divided the masses with such propaganda.


So while I agree that AA should be expanded I am still very aware of the "permenance of racism"


SO WHAT DO WE DO?

Afrodite said...

Also I don't think I can agree with all the stuff abou females benefitting so much from AA. Actually it's men who benefit the most from gender based AA since the pop. of men in college is steadily decreasing it's taking less and less for them to get into schools. Schools want to keep their gender number as close to 50/50 as possible.

Anonymous said...

The year after AA was discontinued in California 100 minority students were admitted to UCLA out of a student body of roughly 35,000. When we use to visit Westwood, were UCLA is located, to go to the movies we we be quickly escorted out of the area after the movie was over. We AF.Am. were not wanted in this area, that was in the 90's.Discontinuing AA was just a way to perpetrate a racist agenda. I lived in Cali I know the atmosphere projected by the whites, Blacks are not as smart and are given extra considerations, the attacks on AA on Cali are just a mask of racist attacks against Black children, a streotype that some Blacks actually believe and feel the need to apologize for. and yes English is my first language. I'm not perfect I do have typos but I also graduated at 16 and I just finished my Master's Degree. I always received straight A's throughout school except for the first time I went to college. I had to drop out for lack of money.

P.S. I hate the classifying of people as house negroes or field,I'm talking about DMX. Kenny Stabler has continuously been arrested why not classify him? oh yeah he's not black, criticism comes from all sides when your black in America, from black people from white people, elders putting down the youth, I need something to erase the pain. If you learned that DMX was molested as a child would you be so quick to put him down,what if he was your child? Most people take drugs to escape something from their past, where is the understanding and human kindness?

Dragon Horse said...

Another example of how logical thought is not fundamental.

What the hell does this have to do with SAT scores and getting admitted to universities...

"When we use to visit Westwood, were UCLA is located, to go to the movies we we be quickly escorted out of the area after the movie was over."

You weren't even on campus. LOL

Johns Hopkins in Baltimore is right next to the ghetto if a white boy feel intimated by ghetto blacks does that have anything to do with getting into the university?

Here is some advice. Don't ever think of being a lawyer, you will humiliate yourself on the logic puzzles that the LSAT has.

"I'm not perfect I do have typos but I also graduated at 16 and I just finished my Master's Degree."

Yeah in a social science like sociology? LOL Give me a break. Come back when you can think rationally.

Swiff said...

Wow, Ward actually co-signs socio-economic affirmative action? Shit, I'm shocked.

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