Monday, June 29, 2009

"If I knew then what I know now I would have picked my own damn cotton!"


I bet that infamous quote has been on the lips of lots of white folks lately. I know it was running through poor Mr. Ricci's mind back in 2003, when he thought he passed a test given by the New Haven fire department to promote 15 captains and lieutenants; only to be told that the test would be tossed because none of the black applicants passed.

Well worry no more Mr. Ricci; today the supremes vindicated you and they said that the city of New Haven was wrong to throw out the test. Yep, it was 5-4 for your team and zero for the black guys. That will teach them to pass over more qualified firefighters for less qualified blacks. Well, actually field, that isn't exactly true, no one was passed over. And field, what about the poor black firefighters? Haven't black fire fighters all over the country been discriminated against and suffered racism from their supposed comrades on the various ladders? Really? Prove it. Well, how about this:


".. In New Jersey in 2006, two black fire officers from Camden won a suit that included evidence that African-American firefighters were abandoned by white ones at the scene of a fire, that beds in the firehouse were divvied up by race, and that a white fire chief had told one of the plaintiffs, "I am better than any 10 of you fucking black guys." A federal appeals court the same year found Cleveland liable for putting most of its African-American firefighters in one battalion, which became known as "Monkey Island."

Oh that's you black folks just being sensitive again. You people are so sensitive and always causing trouble. Look, you won a few of these battles in the early seventies due to some isolated incidents but........but field, they won battles in Philadelphia, New York, Newark, Baltimore, San Francisco, St. Louis, Cleveland, Buffalo, and Bridgeport (which just happens to be the city over from New Haven). Okay, so there were a couple of cases. But what does that have to do with now? You blacks need to study and work harder if you want to be rewarded. The poor guy (Ricci) was dyslexic for crying out loud!

The truth is, the "New Haven 20" (That has a nice civil rights sounding ring to it) are great A-merry-cans, they challenged the political correctness police and won. No more affirmative action? Well, not quite, field. The court's ruling was very narrow, today. They didn't actually address the issue of affirmative action but chose to focus on Title VII and work place discrimination. The city of New Haven anticipated a lawsuit from the black firefighters and the supremes were all over that. And the ruling was still pretty close. "The court noted that despite what otherwise would have constituted a "prima facie" showing of disparate impact race discrimination, several defenses were available to the city--namely that the exam at issue was job related, consistent with business necessity, and there existed no equally valid, less discriminatory alternative that suited the city's needs but was not adopted.."

Hmmmm, well, whatever, you democrats can spin it all you want, it's still a punch in the gut for Ms. Sotomayor. Some of my republican friends sure seemed thrilled:
“Every citizen has a right to have his or her case heard by a judge who will rule on the laws, the facts, and the Constitution—and not play favorites. This case sharpens our focus on Judge Sotomayor’s troubling speeches and writings, which indicate the opposite belief: that personal experiences and political views should influence a judge’s decision. That theory is a breathtaking departure from the proper role of the American judge and will clearly be the subject of questioning at the upcoming hearing.”..This case will only raise more questions in the minds of the American people concerning Judge Sotomayor’s commitment to treat each individual fairly and not as a member of a group.”


That was my main man, Jeff Sessions, the ranking republican on the Judiciary Committee. You go on Jeff, you might as well score some political points to go along with your victory. Way to throw that Obama pick, Sotomayor, in the mix. Yeah wasn't this her baby? Well, not really field, she was on a three Judge panel of the Second Circuit Court Of Appeals who simply refused to hear the case. And the full Second Circuit court voted 7-6 to deny a rehearing. So from a legal standpoint, what she did was not that radical. Actually, she practiced what republicans are always calling for: "Judicial restraint". Besides, read this quote:


"...[in] Ricci, five justices of the Supreme Court narrowly reversed the ruling of the Second Circuit, which had been supported by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the Department of Justice, many states, the National League of Cities and the National Association of Counties. The lower court’s ruling in Ricci was also supported by the majority of the Second Circuit, including judges appointed by Democratic and Republican presidents. "


Ahh that's just democrats talking, again. What do they know?

84 comments:

RiPPa said...

Considering there was no discrimination in that no one was promoted. Doesn't this make this ruling one similar to judicial activism?

Just curious...

ch555x said...

Why can't it be as simple as saying whoever has the talent to put out fires and other services needed of firefighters, gets the job instead of the usual run around, in this case a "dyslexic" man not being able to take a test? Of course this is A-merry-ca and that logic gets tossed away for some "peculiar" reason.

MR.R said...

Ahh that's just democrats talking, again. What do they know?


Indeed...

SickupandFed said...

That's exactly what it is RiPPa.

This type of action has been commonplace for decades. It was their way of fixing the problem by not fixing the problem.

One main reason the tests were originally tossed was because whites had the answers. And even passed them along to family members.

Oh well, now they have to fix the problem. Otherwise we will be back in court again.

AND...

True to form, see where Uncle Thomas was. Again.

Gregory said...

New Haven's bungling will be held up as vindication for every aggrieved right winger. I think it's fairly clear that the Court's opinion doesn't invalidate the CRA, just that New Haven fucked up procedurally by failing to demonstrate disparate impact.

I'm equally certain that this fact will not figure prominently once the howler monkeys start proclaiming that this is the end of the Civil Rights Act.

field negro said...

Seriously, this battle will be going on for awhile. Especially in the age of Obama.

And Gregory is right; the city of New Haven didn't exactly handle this case right from the jump.

Monie said...

Maybe I'm the only one wondering these things but:

How many Black firefighters took the test?

Has any of the Black firefighters who took the test said what it was about the test that they didn't get?

Everyone is talking about the "bigger" issues surrounding this but I'd really like to know why they (the Black firefighters)all failed.

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

"once the howler monkeys start proclaiming that this is the end of the Civil Rights Act."

I got news for them, this battle is not over! Uncle Clarence will reap what he sowed along with the rest of them. When his fall from grace comes, he need not look to black people for support. Whatever, slides under the snakes belly has to come across his back.

MR.R said...

Its always a good day when racism and discrimination is defeated in this country.

MR.R said...

Gregory said...
New Haven's bungling will be held up as vindication for every aggrieved right winger.


Wrong...To the majority of Democrats,Republicans,and Independents this will be seen has a defeat of racism and discrimination.

Most polls are showing strong support for the white and hispanic firefighters.

Bernard Madoff getting a 150 years and the outcome of this case made today a great day.

Anonymous said...

I think its embarrassing that no black firefighters passed the test. Since this test is related to a job you already have, it must be a a test you can study for.

Did black firefighters ask for the test to be thrown out, or did the city just take it upon themselves to pass over white & hispanic firefighters.

JP said...

Anon,
The test wasn't a firefighters test it was a basic skills(reading and writing). Of course your point holds but it's not related directly to what these guys do.

The bleeting about this from the right is so annoying. People in America are under a myth that the spoils of America are generally dispensed fairly based on merit and things you know in a test. People make arbitrary decisions based all kind of subjective measures all the time in hiring. Why does the City of New Haven have to use an objective standard.

Anonymous said...

I wonder which way the great Justice Clarence Thomas voted. I am sure he voted in support of the city?

JP said...

Uncle Clarance voted with the firefighters.

La♥Incognita said...

Monie said: "Has any of the Black firefighters who took the test said what it was about the test that they didn't get?

Everyone is talking about the "bigger" issues surrounding this but I'd really like to know why they (the Black firefighters)all failed
"


I'm with you. I was thinking the same thing. I wondered what part of the test did they fail, what do these test consist of in detail? Safely procedures? policies? various type logic? abc's and 123's? A little of all or something else?

Could there be a part of these test that might be biased towards some black firefighters based on culture, where they could have been transfered from, or could it be just lack of earlier school fundamentals.. etc?

I mentioned bias, because, the SATs and other test could be tremendously bias to some inner city black students, and black students in the Caribbean for example. Some black students have never seen a acorn to know what "texture it is", or some have never been able to observe a squirrel to know "how it behaves". It would be interesting to find out.

Mule Breath said...

I'm sorry Field, but I can't go along with the general sentiment of your post or the majority of your commentors. This is a case I am close to and have followed. The city was wrong and the white firefighters were correct to challenge the decision. In the cases you cite, you are correct that there was wrong doing, but not in this case.

Hathor said...

If a test was given for promotion it is highly probable that a test was given to become a firefighter. I guess I am bothered as others; I can't believe no black firefighter passed the test. I also wonder what were the differences in scores, if the units were integrated and if so, was there selective training of some of the units.

In our Civil Service system new test are routinely created to keep the answers from being passed down, however, the test are made by department and unit managers, which might bias certain applicants if they worked under that manager. There was one test I took, where I could see the footprint of one manager who had taught a class I was in. The class was not at work, but at a community college.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately, this is a case that can't be won in the court of public opinion. It is far too complicated to explain and the conservative take, as duplicitous as it is, sounds right to most people. The five justices that ruled in favor of the firefighters were well aware of all that. They had the cover and they used it.

--j

Anonymous said...

The black firefighters did not pass the test, pure and simple. The others did. The black firefighters in New Haven did not study. The fact that none of them passed proves it.

The city was unfair to those firefighters who passed. And yes, the white firefighters and Hispanics get to see the tests that are passed down to them. Nevertheless, Blacks still should be able to pass.

Kat said...

Uh...guys, please do some research especially to the above anonymous idiot. There were black firefighters who passed the test.

"The test was given to 77 candidates for lieutenant and 41 candidates for captain.

Fifty six firefighters passed the exams, including 41 whites, 22 blacks and 18 Hispanics.

But of those, only 17 whites and two Hispanics could expect promotion".

source: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/06/29/business/AP-US-SupremeCourt-Fire.html?_r=1&hp

StillaPanther2 said...

To Granny For Truth....Blood pressure prohibit the daily reading of the Blog sites. Many, many thanks for letting the "put them in the same box" commenters know the difference between the Black Panthers and the New Black Panthers. 66 Forever.

Kat said...

Field,

You're giving folks misinformation.

There were black firefighters who did pass. the test.

Quite shocking, people on here actually ass-ume that black folks couldn't pass exams in the first place.

From the NY Times article:

"Monday's decision has its origins in New Haven's need to fill vacancies for lieutenants and captains in its fire department.

It hired an outside firm to design a test, which was given to 77 candidates for lieutenant and 41 candidates for captain.

Fifty six firefighters passed the exams, including 41 whites, 22 blacks and 18 Hispanics. But of those, only 17 whites and two Hispanics could expect promotion.

The city eventually decided not to use the exam to determine promotions. It said it acted because it might have been vulnerable to claims that the exam had a "disparate impact" on minorities in violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

The white firefighters said the decision violated the same law's prohibition on intentional discrimination."

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/06/29/business/AP-US-SupremeCourt-Fire.html?_r=1&hp

StillaPanther2 said...

Brother Field... when you are friend or relative of someonehaving to take the LSAT or the bar exam; what would you do when speaking to him/her? I would hope that you tell them what can show up in taking these tests. Moreso when a select few have historically controlled this job. Certain ethics have inside info on the mechanics of the firefighting game. In my "world" I would challenge the New Haven group to take their test if it is based on general knowledge . Maybe the young generation can be viewed as "dummys" but I went to segregated schools that placed academics before sports. I am tired of "my race" shown as "less than"

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

Hey, StillaPanther2:

I haven't seen you since, Moby Dick was a minnow. It's good to see you again.

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

I like how Mr R has come over here to gloat about the so-called discrimination against the privileged in America. How rich!

Anonymous said...

THANK YOU , MONIE, it's about time, I have been saying all alone that, I REFUSE to believe that, every single BLACK FIREFIGHTER was BRAIN DEAD! hello people, this is FISHY, black people are not DUMB! but, if the WHITE MAN has something to do with it, then we are! all the white men passed the test but, the black men FAILED! so not a single WHITE MAN failed the test! their is no way in this world that, all these WHITE MEN passed that TEST, their had to be a organized union behind this, it was as if the WHITE FIREFIGHTER'S were all in one accord, and thing's don't work that way, this is no MYSTERY, they knew something that the BLACK FIREFIGHTER'S didn't KNOW, it would have been better if at least two BLACK FIREFIGHTER'S had passed the test, in that way people won't be suspicious, and where are the BLACK FIREFIGHTER'S, they need to come out of the dark and show their face's, if they were smart enough to become firemen to begin with, then they should be brave enough to come forth and defend their character, because as it stand's now, they are being SMEARED! I have yet to see a black fireman interviewed on TV!

Black Rose said...

This decision sets a slippery slope precedent that is cautionary at best.
Most tests in this country are designed to discriminate(check out the origin of the SAT's). Institutional racism.
The larger picture of course is the playing field is now leveled and there won't be a need for the Civil Right's Act or it is now so weakened it isn't worth the paper it is written on. We have a Black President and all is well. This decision is truly a blow to all thinking people who care about equality...

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

Amen Black Rose

Hey Prophetess Wallace, I was thinking that everyone had went to sleep. It was so quiet on here and other blogs tonight.

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

They had already gotten together behind closed doors and made a decision about this case before it came before their court. Their judgements were written before they even received it. That's not all they plan to do.

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

Clarence lone disenting vote on voter right bill was sort of a front to cover for what they already had planned to do. Why do you think the GOP is urging Norm Coleman to take his appeal to Supreme Court? Because they plan to hand it to him if he does. Why do you think they are trying so hard to keep Sotomayer off the bench?

Shady_Grady said...

Perhaps this is just my own middle class bias, but I am troubled when affirmative action is interpreted to mean that lower performance on "objective" measurements must be accepted, if the lower performers were black.

I think that affirmative action and anti-discrimination laws/programs are most effective and justified in the opposite case-when corporations or government agencies make hiring or promotion decisions on subjective or murky criteria that is not necessarily job related (who "fits" better in the environment, who reminds the bosses of themselves at a younger age, who is married or related to another person already working there, who plays golf with the bosses, etc)

To me that is where AA needs to be used and enforced with a vengeance-to eliminate or reduce as much as possible the tendency to give preference to similar looking people.

What is the percentage of blacks with bachelor's degrees, master's degrees, Ph.D's, or certifications such as PMP's, ITIL, Six Sigma, Series 7, etc? Could we really argue in good faith that if we don't take or pass those to the same extent as others, that those others shouldn't reap the benefits?
I think not. I think that we are just as capable (and then some) as anyone else. It's all a matter of bearing down.

Ricci had dyslexia and scored high enough to be promoted. Anyone (black or white) that scored lower than Ricci did ought to be either embarassed or inspired by Ricci's performance.

So I think this was a really bad case ( mostly from a PR perspective mostly but also from a legal perspective) to take to the Supreme Court.

We've got to take up the challenge and raise up performance. Of course in some places it won't matter because as I mentioned above institutions will definitely try to find other ways to discriminate, but we can't make it easy for them by scoring lower on tests that dyslexic white men ace.

field negro said...

"Field,

You're giving folks misinformation.

There were black firefighters who did pass. the test."

Kat, I never want to give misinformation, and I don't think I did in the post. Read it again.

StillPanther2, nice to see you are still holding it down. I co-sign with what Granny said.

And speaking of Granny; you all go and check out her blog, Granny does a great job with it.

Anonymous said...

I don't think you can compare this test to the SAT or LSAT which may be culturally biased. This test is about the culture of being a firefighter, a job these people aleady have. In effect it is a subject test.

This is a competitive test and this group of people just didn't measure up this time. Maybe next time they'll study harder.

Anonymous said...

I think the bigger question here is why didn't these fire fighters pass the test? As a professor in education who continually studies the phenomenon of testing, it seems that we are still dealing with schools that don't properly prepare our students to compete. It seems we may need to take a look at Brown v. Board of Education and not necessarily political correctness. Until there is equal educational access for all students, we will continue to see cases like this one.

Exodus Mentality said...

I don't know how many of you have taken the LSAT, other than Field, but it seemed to me simply a test that required a wide range of knowledge and reasonable reading and writing skills. (I strolled in after a long night of partying and got into the law school of my choice.) The LSAT (and for that matter all the SAT's) are not something where the answers can be passed down to anyone, and IMO can't really be studied for. Not having seen the test in question, but knowing it was newly created and specifically for civil service testing, I would bet that it was pretty neutral and fairly abc-123. The test should not be the issue here.


It's been my observation that many children in the public schools systems are deficient in the areas of diverse knowledge and reading and writing skills. It's a function of schools "teaching for the test", and the larger problem that many parents have checked out of the educational process for their children. They expect the school system to take care of it and often little time and less resources to properly augment their childrens' education.

There is no denying historic discrimination and seemingly no end to the lengths to which white people have gone to hold down their Black counterparts. But I'm not sure any of us has sufficient information to make this case stand for much of anything.

And, not trying to be facetious or mean, but far too many of the comments all over the internet and press indicate a complete and total lack of knowledge about what the Federal Appeals court system (of which SCOTUS is simply the last stop) does or is supposed to do. Like, anyone who thinks this ruling has any bearing whatsoever on anything related to Judge Sotomeyor is one such person. Or anyone who thinks the ruling is a blow to the civil rights movement.

The civil rights struggle is over people. Yes some people are still being deprived of their civil rights, but those things never ever survive the light of day anymore. (And I'm not equating gay rights to civil rights because I think there are glaring differences). While poor blacks and not quite so poor whites squabble in the dust for the scraps, the few, who feed these imaginary and manufactured tensions, chuckle from their elevated position.

A Person of Interest said...

Hell, half the teachers today can't spell worth a crap, and a lot of them probably should have never even gotten a high school diploma.

But, due to lowered standards, they moved right on up through the "system", and now they're teaching your kids. (And, I don't need no stinkin' links to "prove" it...I've seen it, and it started a long time ago.)

I'm amazed that people seem so bewildered as to why inferior teaching tends to make for inferior education.

Rainy said...

We keep hearing that no black firefighters passed. What actually happened was, 8 black firefighters took the test an half of them passed. The same for Latinos. Guess how many whites took the test? 64. 16 of them passed. I don't know what happened here.

Rainy said...

Re above: I guess there is conflicting information as to how many passed or didn't. But black firefighters passed the test. This is yet another way for humans to divide and separate. I cannot stand it anymore.

A Person of Interest said...

From the article field linked to in his post:

"The city threw out a promotion test because of a racial disparity in the results; no African-Americans scored high enough to qualify for immediate promotion."

So. By God, if no black can pass the test, then ain't nobody getting no damn promotion!

I heard on the tube last night that a lot of the test(s) were given as oral examinations. There were NINE seperate three-man panels which conducted these examinations. EVERY panel was composed of one white, one black & one hispanic. Apparently, each panel agreed on the final grade given each applicant.

So. What's wrong with that? Hell, you want to give the black applicants bonus points, just so they can get higher scores? The testing sounded pretty even-handed to me.

If I'm mistaken about they way the testing was conducted, I apologize. Perhaps there was an oral AND written examination. I must admit, I just heard what I related above in the background. I was in the kitchen broiling fish.

Rudy said...

As a black man, the facts leading up to this decision is embarassing and insulting.

What I find particularly embarassing and insulting is that the scores were thrown out, because black firefighters did not score high enough.

If the black firefighters did not score high enough, then the New Haven FD should have encouraged the them to study harder, not throw out the results. By doing the latter, NHFD is implicitly saying that black firefightgers are incapable of scoring high enough on a test for which preparation materials were cited. As a result, we have to change the standards to hide their inability to properly prepare for the exam.

Again, I am embarassed and insulted.

uptownsteve said...

"We keep hearing that no black firefighters passed. What actually happened was, 8 black firefighters took the test an half of them passed. The same for Latinos. Guess how many whites took the test? 64. 16 of them passed."

Thank you.

I am so sick of the lies.

west coast story said...

What the hell is cultural bias? How can a person come from Cambodia, have to learn English and the culture, and ace a test that black kids fall down on? Someone educate me, please. This cultural bias thing sounds to me like an excuse for partying and BSing when you should have been studying.

Rudy said...

One does not need to cite a Cambodian scoring well on an exam to know that the cultural bias excuse is bullshit. All one needs to do is cite the black kids who score well on the exam.

I know a black kid scoring well on an exam may be utterly surpising to you all with strongly held beliefs that support otherwise.

Anonymous said...

http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/beneath-low-bet-lil-wayne-set-the-stage-for-child-pornography/

Please check this out

FlyNMy40s said...

Personally I think the supreme court did the right thing here. I haven't taken the LSAT, but I have taken the MCAT (Medical School Admissions Test) and I've also taken the GRE with the Subject test in Biochemistry, Cell and Molecular Biology which was easier than the MCAT, but still difficult.

I simply REFUSE to belive that with proper preparation everyone who takes standardized exams can't do well.

The issues I've observed mentoring minority premeds and predocs, is that some of them never put the time in the properaly prepare for the exams as they should because they know that many schools will cut them some slack when it comes to their scores. That's fine for the GRE, but the MCAT tends to predict Board passing rates and I can't count the number of Black folks I know who got into med school but can't finish school or their residency training because they can't pass their boards.

Bottom line, the Black firemen need to work on those test taking skills and pass the exam the next time.

Anonymous said...

I don't know who managed to throw those BLACK FIREMEN off, but,they did a good job of it, these people were SHREWD, most of us are suspicious because, we know, that something is not adding up right, when I see those WHITE FIREMEN on TV that so called, passed the test FAIR and SQUARE, I say "this look's very STRANGE" and if BLACK FIREMEN passed that test, WHERE ARE THEY?

HOW in the world can the WHITE MAN SCREAM DISCRIMINATION? well, we sit back and allowed them to take our struggle and try to use it for their GLORY! and all we did was comment on a BLOG about it! and the sad thing is, not nay BLACK FIREMAN was BRAVE enough, to come forth and defend his honor, they hid out, so for that, they deserve what they get! they gave those white firemen permission to label them as "UNEQUAL, LESS THAN and UNFIT!

Adam said...

Field,

I usually read the entire thread before commenting, but no this time. I read your view and I went straight to the comment section.

I believe that the social and political climate in New Haven is so muddy and the vetting process for these test is so sloppy that the firefighters (black, hispanic and white) got a raw deal. Everyone got scammed because the city's administration did not care enough to make sure the firefighters received a quality test where the scores reflect there experience and abilities.

One fact that I discovered is that the black firefighters who scored low on that last exam did extremely well on previous exams.

malik said...

The real story here has to do with the "tests" that are established by organizations for promotion when the position requires skills that are not easily testable by the methods used.
Many public organizations set a written test that has little to do with the actual requirements of the job. The disparate rate of passage and promotion usually results when candidates cheat on the test by having the answers supplied in advance.
Those in the "in crowd" somehow manage to get copies of the test or past tests to study. Those in the "out group" have to do the best they can.

MR.R said...

The New Haven charter expressly requires that each vacancy in the fire department be filled from among the top three scorers; promotions must be based upon merit as determined by the competitive examinations, and the charter further expressly prohibits favoring any candidate based on his or her race. This is known as "the rule of three" in New Haven.


New Haven paid 100 grand to IO Solutions,Inc,{a diversity testing firm}of Illinois to get a test free of racial bias.

Once these race-neutral exams were administered,the top scorers would be promoted to the seven open Captain vacancies, and the eight open Lieutenant vacancies.

No blacks scored high enough to be promoted.2 hispanics did.

The white firefighters took the race-neutral exams ,where among the highest scorers,yet they where denied promotions because they were white.

uptownsteve said...

"How can a person come from Cambodia, have to learn English and the culture, and ace a test that black kids fall down on?"

I'm so sick of you buckdancin Toms taking one example of an immigrant excelling and making it the rule.

I can show you Southeast Asian communities in Northern Virginia that are rife with gang violence and poverty.

kathy said...

The way this case was framed in the media, it did seem as if Black firefighters could not pass the test that white firefighters could..and that was not only misleading but also seem to try to reinforce negative stereotyping with this false idea.

Passing the test but not qualifying is one of the reasons I think this type of promotion is faulty. One person could qualify with a grade that is only one point different than a person who didn't qualify, and perhaps the person who didn't qualify actually has a better work record, attendance record, ect. The whole promotion exam should probably be modified as a pass/fail, and then possibly some sort of hiring based on those factors as well as what I call representative of the population hiring. For example, New Haven has an population of about 57 percent white, 37 percent black, 2 percent asian, latinos of all races represent about 10 percent, these demographics should also be factored into the criteria.

I have known quite a few people who can pass a test with high grades, but have no common sense or logic. These type of promotional exams are stupid.

Hathor said...

West Coast and Rudy,

I think the person who mentioned cultural bias, stated they still didn't know if that existed on the SAT as it once did.

All immigrant group have been accepted in the white culture or at least enough to understand their proverbs and analogies. When they learn English it is with in the boundaries of white culture.

I also balk when one uses an Ethnic group to compare to blacks. Somehow people never see the ones who are dumb as stumps. Working class blacks see them, but what they say is never noted.

I took the SAT while attending a high school in the south at the time of Jim Crow. I remember some of those analogies were totally foreign. Even educated black folks never used those comparisons. I am sure there were some southern whites that had never heard of some of those sayings and analogies. I also found some of the same strange sayings on the Wonderlick Test that some employers would use to test for clerical positions.
Some employment agency would coach it clients on the test.

With mass communication, blacks in the middle class may not be as isolated as 30 and 50 years ago, so these test may no be as cultural biased as they were then.

If blacks tended to read more black literature than whites, because reading a lot of literature that wasn't about being poor or extremely regional would help you pass the verbal parts of test.

I like to ask did either of you get an 800 on the verbal part of the SAT? If you didn't was it lack of education on your part or did you find questions that confounded you?

To those of you who think knowledge is the only thing that influences a oral civil service exam, think again. The way one dresses , how one speaks and a judge who second guesses himself, can influence scores.

kathy said...

Hather, that is a really good point:
"To those of you who think knowledge is the only thing that influences a oral civil service exam, think again. The way one dresses , how one speaks and a judge who second guesses himself, can influence scores."

A recent study in Canada showed employment bias based on names, and I know there are also studies in the United States that show teacher bias and expectations based on a student's name.

field negro said...

Now this is a great discussion we have going here. I am learning so much from you folks.

Thank you.

BTW, "A Person of Interest" can I come over for dinner? I love fish!

Anonymous said...

They could have saved a lot of trouble if they just didn't promote some of the white guys and promoted some black guys instead.

Rudy said...

The merits of some exams cannot be discounted. The thing that strikes me about the firefighter's exam is that the test covers a body of knowledge that firefighters are expected to know.

Yes, an exam does not soley determines if one can lead. However, it does measure what a person knows. Should leaders not be knowledgeable?

In my opinion, a mid-level leader should be technically proficient and able to inspire and motivate those he/she are leading.

I say this as someone who has followed and led.

FlyNMy40s said...

uptownsteve said...
I can show you Southeast Asian communities in Northern Virginia that are rife with gang violence and poverty.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And 70% of my classmates in grad school at Johns Hopkins were not only Asian but many didn't speak English that well. Listen, I don't give a dam how many gangs there are in NoVa. That doesn't change the fact that there are "gangs" of Asians in graduate andmedical schools all across the country too.

So why don't you shuffling foot negreos take off the tap shoes and stop waiting on "da white man" to ALWAYS give you a leg up. STUDY!!!!

NakedTruth said...

Hi FN,

A little off topic but speaking of racism. Have you seen Sarah Palin's latest Independence Day video put out by her PAC? Another reference to President Obama being an ape. Check it out below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbotuuMVgbo

Why do they show King Kong around 1:43 and then show a picture of our President? What the hell does King Kong has to do with independence? I guess I wouldn't be so sensitive if this was not becoming a talking point for the GOP. First we had the NY Post article of the cops shooting a Chimp with a caption talking about Obama's stimulus package, then there was the comment made by the SC GOP rep about an Ape being First Lady Michelle Obama's ancestor and now this bull from the Wasilla Hillbilly.

Enough is enough.

Shabazz said...

"So why don't you shuffling foot negreos take off the tap shoes and stop waiting on "da white man" to ALWAYS give you a leg up. STUDY!!!!"

Why do you always have to say something condescending toward Black people GNAT?
You are a real coon.
Hey Field, why don't you give this chick the lamp already?

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

Exodus Mentality:

"The civil rights struggle is over people. Yes some people are still being deprived of their civil rights, but those things never ever survive the light of day anymore."

The civil rights struggle might be over for you, maybe, you've given up the fight. Granny is a fighter, always have been, and always will be when it comes to what is right, just, and fair. As long as granny has breath in her, a mouth, and some fingers, and can see, when I can't see I'll use Braile; if I can't walk I'll use a wheelchair, I will never give up the fight. And if it gets so bad I can't use a wheelchair, then I'll have one of my grandchildren wheel me on a gurney, but I plan to fight until the job is done or my time is up on earth, whichever comes first.

I will never give up the fight as long as my people are subject to discrimination in jobs, police brutality, unjust criminal laws, proper education, better quality health care, and whatever else the privilege get that every American...black, brown, yellow, and red should be entitled to as well.

It doesn't matter if my circumstances, well-being, or standard of living is better than others, because every American should be afforded those same rights and privileges as any other human being in this USA no matter what color their skin is. I don't care if they have green skin, their entitled to the same rights as whites in this country.

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

*poor education* *Poor health care*

Anonymous said...

@Kat-"Uh...guys, please do some research especially to the above anonymous idiot. There were black firefighters who passed the test"


@Field-"Kat, I never want to give misinformation, and I don't think I did in the post. Read it again."


Field, have you ever run into a person who calls fellow a poster "idiot"-- and even accuses you of misinformation is the very person who can barely read and even worse can't comprehend what little he has read?

I am guessing that he has flunked a few tests in his day.

GrannyStandingforTruth said...

BTW, I've got something important to do right now, so I'm signing offline until I get done.

Anyway, I wanted to get you folks to go over and read something I just posted a minute ago when you get time, and Field please check it out. Granny is sounding an alert that people need to be paying closer attention to.

www.grandstandingfortruthblog.com

kathy said...

Fly,
you are actually quite racist in your assumption that Asians are doing better in schools, you have simplified your equations down to meaningless garbage.
Take the same Asian student, and send that person to another country where they are considered second class, and guess what, they suck in school too.

Anonymous said...

Granny-"...The civil rights struggle might be over for you, maybe, you've given up the fight."

Amen, Granny. Fighting for civil rights and justice never ends. Furthermore, it is a noble and worthwhile cause, esp. for Blacks in America.

That kind of 'mentality' is really scary. Where does it come from? And where is it going? Hope it's not too widespread in our race.

If it is, we are in big trouble.

Shabazz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shabazz said...

New blog posts, check it out:

http://theundergroundasylum.blogspot.com/

FlyNMy40s said...

kathy said...
Fly,
you are actually quite racist in your assumption that Asians are doing better in schools, you have simplified your equations down to meaningless garbage.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And exactly WHERE did I say that Asians are doing better in school? YOU said that which means that YOU need to work out your obvious self-esteem issues. I go head to head with a good number of Asians EVERYDAY because they are overrepresented in Science and Medicine and while I struggled in my 20's to keep up, I mastered that struggle a LONG time ago once I started to work harder and most importantly accept 1000%responsibility for MY role in my educational and professional goals.

So the only thing garbage around here is YOUR comment and your ASSumptions. And people wonder why folks don't do well on standardized exams? A good number of the folks commenting on this blog have the reading comprehension skills of a 8 year old, ALWAYS reading into $hit that isn't there.

Anonymous said...

"...A good number of the folks commenting on this blog have the reading comprehension skills of a 8year old, ALWAYS reading into $hit that isn't there."

This was the reason FNG slammed FatHorse-FlyNFart-wit-LawnJockeyEyes yesterday. Now she's back with more of her condescending BS. Of course, now she is at Johns Hopkins and outsmarting some of the world's best medical students.

How fortunate we are to have such a scientific Horse Fly looking genius on FN blog. Field must be so overjoyed that he frequently passes out. Yep, when Satan made this Fly, he broke the mold while stuffing it with too much shit.

FlyNMy40s said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
uptownsteve said...

Flynmy40s

"And 70% of my classmates in grad school at Johns Hopkins were not only Asian but many didn't speak English that well. Listen, I don't give a dam how many gangs there are in NoVa. That doesn't change the fact that there are "gangs" of Asians in graduate andmedical schools all across the country too."

And I suppose that you were the only black in the class, eh?

Oh and there are thousands of black young people graduating from college every freakin year.

You Uncle Tom and Aunt Jemima negroes are so full of crap if you took a dump you'd be a glass figurine.

A Person of Interest said...

Field said:

"BTW, "A Person of Interest" can I come over for dinner? I love fish!

You're more than welcome, any time. You like speckled trout & redfish? When fishing, I spend most of my time going after those, down around Grand Isle, LA. Or, when I'm fishing at home, it's usually white perch (crappie), or we go night-fishing for catfish....(now, THAT'S a blast!)

uptownsteve said...

POI

You never invited me and I've known your butt for 5 years!!

A Person of Interest said...

Yes, you can come too, Steve:) Let me know next time you're coming through Mississippi to go to the boats on the Gulf Coast.

I've got plenty. I'm a helluva fisherman!

Shawn said...

"We keep hearing that no black firefighters passed. What actually happened was, 8 black firefighters took the test an half of them passed. The same for Latinos. Guess how many whites took the test? 64. 16 of them passed."

Thank you and Upts, I am also sick of the lies!

FlyNMy40s said...

uptownsteve said...
And I suppose that you were the only black in the class, eh?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There were about 8 of us in a class of around 125, so what's youd dumb ass point?

verapcity said...

Ricci needs a lawsuit filed against him, really. I can't believe how closed-minded folk had to be, in order to support such a reprehensibly-immoral man.

Some self-loathers (like Justice Clarence Thomas) hated the idea of Blacks getting promoted, so bad, until they supported a White man who:

1)had to take weeks off of work to study for the exam, no Black fireman had that luxury

2)spent hundreds of dollars, on a tutor for learning how to compromise test-taking shortcomings. No Black fireman had that luxury

3)is about to be 'put in charge' of something, as a reward for immorally-compromising an Academic test which gauged no leadership aptitude, whatsoever.

oh well...more Whites getting away with playing *The Entitlement Card* as usual...whats new

field negro said...

A Person Of Interest, it sounds like you know your stuff. The next time I am in "the boot" I will look you up. :)

And uptownsteve, don't hate.

uptownsteve said...

FN

LOL!!!

grinder said...

Hey folks, look at the numbers. Asians do better than everyone else, including whites. Why? It's really not a big mystery: Family, education, investment, future.

Think about it. Asians don't get divorced nearly as often as everyone else. They have some of the lowest out-of-wedlock birth rates. Along with Jews, they have a reverence for education. To them, to "act white" is to act stupid.

Asians invest their money first, and go for the bling only after they've gotten a big pile of money. They pour everything they've got into the next generation.

This is not a matter of higher I.Q. among Asians, and it sure as hell isn't a matter of pro-Asian discrimination, given that most Asians came to the U.S. essentially as indentured servants whose daily existence was damn close to slavery.

Asian achievement is a matter of cultural differences. Everyone, not just black people, ought to be looking at how they do things.

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