Thursday, February 19, 2009

Coward!


So Eric Holder thinks that we are cowards here in A-merry-ca because we don't talk openly about race. (The guy obviously doesn't ever come to this site) And of course every red blooded white A-merry-can took offense; some more than others. If you didn't happen to catch the shout fest between Pat Buchanan and Michael Eric Dyson on "Hardball" tonight you missed a real treat. For a moment there I thought Pat was going to drop the "N" word, I sure know he was thinking it. (*How many of you Negroes can look at a white person and just tell when he/she wants to call you the"N" word? Raise your hands.*) Say what you want about Pat, at least he seems to be pretty honest about his feelings on race. Now there is a guy I could start a dialogue with. Eric Holder was not talking about the Pat Buchanans of the world. He knows just how he feels about black folks, and he doesn't seem to have any illusions about it. I like that.

Now Lorie Byrd, on the other hand, not so much.

See Lorie is your typical misguided conservative. I will try not to be too hard on her because she is a Tigers fan like moi. Still, her recent post on Wizbang about Holder's comments was sad but not surprising. She thinks individual black people achieving in business and politics is a fair measuring stick of how far A-merry-ca has come on matters of race. As if every time she sees a black woman she sees Condi or Oprah, and every time she sees a black man she sees Obama or Will. The anecdote about her daughter and her black playmate....well here, read for yourself:

Eric Holder, the nation's first black attorney general, said Wednesday the United States was "a nation of cowards" on matters of race, with most Americans avoiding candid discussions of racial issues. In a speech to Justice Department employees marking Black History Month, Holder said the workplace is largely integrated but Americans still self-segregate on the weekends and in their private lives.


"Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and I believe continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards," Holder said.
Race issues continue to be a topic of political discussion, but "we, as average Americans, simply do not talk enough with each other about race."
Maybe one day we will know Americans are no longer cowards on race if they pass a law to protect the civil rights of minorities.


Or a black woman becomes one of the most successful businesswomen in America.
Or if a
black man or woman can serve as secretary of state.
Or if one day they elect a black American to the highest office in the land.
Or if a black man can serve as attorney general, Eric Holder.


Of course all those things have happened already. But Holder is talking not so much about concrete progress made by minorities, but about how Americans discuss race and how they choose to associate in their private lives. Make of that what you will, but when someone in the government starts worrying about who I choose as my friends, I get worried that they are way deeper in my business than I care for them to be.


Update: It just occurred to me that while I was writing this post my daughter was in her room playing with the little girl who lives across the street -- who just happens to be black. The fact that it did not even occur to me until now, in my opinion, is more indicative of progress. Would you prefer to live in a country where you associated with those of other races without even thinking about it, or a country in which race was always on your mind and discussed at every opportunity. I know which America I choose and it is quite apparent which one Attorney General Holder would prefer. I guess in his book that makes me a coward.
Update II:
Michelle Malkin talks about real race cowards.


Funny. When I think of racial cowards, I think of Barack Obama at Jeremiah Wright's church, sitting there week after week, year after year, saying nothing about the separatist demagoguery echoing from the pulpit to the pews.


When I think of racial cowards, I think of all the navel-gazers who fret about poisonous racial dialogue, but say nothing about "My President Is Black" bigotry...
...Holder doesn't want an honest dialogue about race. In the Age of Obama, "talking enough with each other about race" means the rest of us shutting up while being subjected to lectures about our insensitivity and insufficient integration on the weekends.
Allahpundit points out that Obama could have talked more about race during the campaign if he wanted to, but the Jeremiah Wright made that hard to do.

I didn't think about this when I first posted, but what does it say about Democrats/liberals who won't allow black Americans to identify themselves as conservatives or Republicans without calling them derogatory names? I guess it could be considered cowardice that so many liberals are afraid of and threatened by black conservatives who flee the liberal Democrat plantation."

Hmmm, did she write "black conservatives who flee the liberal Democrat plantation"? Nice try Lorie, but the last time I checked; the big house was still a part of the plantation.



126 comments:

Christopher said...

Ain't it a pip?

In post-racial Murika, everyone is talking race and racism and all of a sudden freeper heads across the country can be heard exploding.

Cheron L. Hall said...

raises hand

Oh Lorie...arguing backwards and throwing in the token negro...how clever. Yeah, I admit, being from the Southside of Chicago and partially familiar with the ecclesiastic figures, I was siding with some of the things Wright said in regards to Black people and patriotism. I felt that Obama had sold out until I thought about it...and thought about...and thought about...

I didn't need to think that hard when I remembered the atrocities involved in how Bush handled those in hurricane Katrina...I realized that Obama was playing his part in a game that was invented long before his time and doing what he had to do and had he addressed the issues of race in the way Holder speaks of he would never have gotten elected.

Tone said...

He blew it. He should have taken the Heather MacDonald list & ran with it while addressing the issues that his cops face. I'm starting to believe the phrase, "I won't be satisfied until I own you.", should be the disclaimer.

Kellybelle said...

She let the real problem slip--she feels like she's being lectured when she's asked to listen. If she'd turn off Oprah for five minutes and truly engage a Black person she might learn something.

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]Maybe one day we will know Americans are no longer cowards on race if they pass a law to protect the civil rights of minorities.[/quote]

Filled Negro - you tickle me so sometimes.

Let me ask you a STRAIGHT UP question:

Do you believe that all of the violence and mayhem taken in aggregate on the streets of some parts of Philadelphia equate to a CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATION for the INNOCENT people living within?

In Philly and other cities in 2009 there is:

* Witness Intimidation
* Terrorist acts meant to inflict fear and or vengeance upon the victim (ie: taking the laws into their own hands)
* Low rates of homicide closure (the killer walks away with impunity)
* Incompetence law enforcement/prosecution


Filled Negro - as HAPPY as you are to see a Black President and Attorney General - when will you advocate that they start specifically treating these key threats to the community as CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS?

Holder said that he was going to reinvigorate the Civil Rights Division of the US Justice Department. In the context of his speech, Filled Negro, why don't you GO FOR BROKE in fully benefiting from your vote and your monetary donations and DEMAND that he throw the full weight of the Justice Department behind protecting the innocent people in these communities that live through terrorism, intimidation and lawlessness?

Or is it that only WHITE FOLKS can commit "Civil Rights Violations"?

Anonymous said...

Holder is a fool. The worse pick Obama made. Let's put someone with a chip on their shoulder in charge of Justice, what could possibly go wrong?

szpork

chamblee54 said...

Americans don't need to talk more about race. They need to listen more.

Christopher Chambers said...

This is funny--shows that Anonymous/szpork is walking metaphor for all stupid white people and wingnut bloggers/commentators. Eric Holder...chip on his shoulder? hahahaha. Eric Holder's a bureaucrat, a stereotypical white man's black man/blue chip. His speech was about as fire-breathing as he's ever been capable. But to Anonymous and the rest of these fools, he's some dangerous nigger. I love it. Lord, dumbasses, there is no hope for you. Barack should just ressurrect the Japanese internment camps and shove these fools in there, making their worst racewar nightmares come true. This is priceless. Priceless! LOL

field negro said...

[Un]constructive Feedback, you do realize, don't you, that the quote you listed was from your conservative friend and not me.
Sometimes it pays to understand what you are reading BEFORE you comment.

"Americans don't need to talk more about race. They need to listen more."

Amen.

unokhan said...

holder is right of course and --like everyone who spoke truth to power before him-- he will be predictably excoriated from all sides for having stated the obvious.

in this instance, his very act of declaiming makes his case, because wall street would never allow anyone but a high yella the advantage of that bourgeois pulpit.

classical one said...

What good what a national dialogue on race do? My guess is it would do absolutely nothing. People like to self segregate in case Holder hasn't noticed. How are you going to reverse what seems to come naturally to folks? What he should have said is: "There is no post racial world";No on is truly color blind; white and blacks think differently, and racism isn't going away. "

He's right about one thing though: People are cowards. This absurd, far left construct that no one can say that "I see race" has got to go. I blame the guilty white fools who think color blind mentality is the answer to racial animosity.

Christopher said...

This is funny--shows that Anonymous/szpork is walking metaphor for all stupid white people and wingnut bloggers/commentators.

Couldn't agree with you more, Christopher. Definitely one of the weakest links on this blog.

Go B. said...

Good Post

Go B.

RiPPa said...

Dude I wanted to throw a steel toe boot at Pat Buchanan. But then I realized that since I self segregate, that would mean I wouldn't be able to watch BET 24/7 like I do everyday as I sit at home on welfare as I milk White chicks of the WIC that they get for their 14v kids.

Justice58 said...

This is funny--shows that Anonymous/szpork is walking metaphor for all stupid white people and wingnut bloggers/commentators.

Couldn't agree with you more, Christopher. Definitely one of the weakest links on this blog.


Spoken so true!

Bob said...

I don't understand why some people who didn't vote for Obama now talk like he was elected unanimously, as if he represents a massive affirmation of justice & the matter of race is now closed.

dalit said...

Constructive Feedback, are you implying that field negro and the rest of us do not want a stronger police force in black communities?

Because I never heard anyone say that. Subtract that antagonistic tone and I think you will find that everyone here agrees with you. I would LOVE it if the incompetent and woefully understaffed police force in black and/or poor communities was considered a civil rights violation (never mind if that does not make logical sense given the definition of civil rights). Nothing would make me happier than to know that the police actually cares about what happens in these communities.

But I don't like your tone. Are you implying that field negro is somehow linked with with "communities that live through terrorism, intimidation and lawlessness"? Why on earth do you think we would oppose anything you said?

grinder said...

A bunch of stuff to say about that one. I'm just going to spit out ideas here without trying to knit them together. Folks here might not like it, but at least it's honest.

I was surprised that it wasn't a much bigger deal. When I first noticed Holder's comment, I thought to myself, "Uh-oh, here we go again. The wingnuts will have a field day with this one." But not so much. Hmm. I wonder what's up with that.

Part of me was pissed off at his comment. I thought it was disrespectful to the considerable distance millions of white people have traveled on racial issues. But then I remembered the context of his comments, which were included in a speech about Black History Month, and which were part of a larger and more thoughtful speech.

I also thought that he painted with a broad brush. This is a country of >300 million people. Americans are individualistic people. We are increasingly multi-racial. He seemed to be speaking out of an earlier time, showing relatively little recognition of the real changes in American demographics and social change.

I also thought that he had a point to make. You can't be an American of any race without having a bunch of baggage, and for white people it often means trying hard to avoid the issue rather than confront it.

I also thought he was insensitive to current social and economic realities. Millions of non-black citizens are struggling like crazy, along with everyone else, just trying to get by. And now we have someone in the federal government calling them "cowards?" Now? Come on. Is this really the time to be doing that, even if you do have a point?

I also thought he was destructive, and even degrading. If you condemn people (and I think it's fair that calling people "corwards" is a condemnation) then you have to offer a plausible path to redemption. I didn't see it in his speech, but maybe I missed it. All stick, no carrot. That's a problem.

I also think he was unrealistic. It's easy to call people "cowards," but much harder to ask why so many white people flee discussions of race. If you really asked that question and then listened for the responses, I think you'd get the sort of complicated answers that wouldn't lend themsleves to Holder's dualistic construction of "cowards" versus ... versus .. what, heroes? Come on, Eric, deal with life as it's lived here, not just among blacks but among everyone else, too.

Black Diaspora said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shady_Grady said...

This whole "liberal plantation" meme that the conservatives use is beyond tired/offensive. They aren't going to get many black voters by using that kind of language. It's like saying "until the Jews decide to leave the Democratic deathcamps".

The smarter conservatives must know this.

Black Diaspora said...

Holder said the workplace is largely integrated but Americans still self-segregate on the weekends and in their private lives.

I think that much of what I'm about to say here will be dismissed as a "narrow" response, rather than a "summing up" one, to the question implied in the above statement:

Why, if given the choice, do the two races separate themselves?

Here's my narrow answer. But first let me say that I'm a product of a segregated era, and I'm sure that that reality will undoubtedly color my answer.

For me, whites have never seemed real.

Oh, sure, they're human in the same sense that I'm human. Sure, we share a common humanity where we might commiserate one with the other regarding certain negative outcomes, and celebrate certain positive ones.

But, it ends there: Whites, to me, don't seem real.

They lack a three-dimensioned reality. They seem flat, and foreign. Their energy bounce up against me, making little impact, leaving me untouched my their vapid presence.

Now, I know that what I have just said seems downright negative and hostile, but it sprung forth from a place of honesty--an honesty that carries no bitterness from my past, nor a need to find a reckoning in my here and now.

And I suspect that, if what I've said here is true for me, it's probably true for many whites as well--they limit their interaction with blacks for the same reason: We don't seem real to them.

I also suspect that that is changing. It's occurring, this melding of one energy with the other, but at a slow pace.

Yet, with each successive generation, I believe that this racial distancing will become narrower and narrower, until one day, the seemingly natural gap between us won't matter so much as our common destiny--to make the many one.

field negro said...

Grinder and Black Diaspora,you two should meet and start a think tank. BD, that was profound!


I think the dynamic you talked about is more prounced with females more so than males. Men have sports to foster a certain form of generic bonding. At least we have the same team to cheer for and the same things around a common entity to discuss. But the bonding ends in the sports arena. And we get that.

Anonymous said...

Christopher Chambers said...

You're right. Of course it wasn't fire breathing, but justice is blind and doesn't lecture. That's what I was getting at.


szpork

Anonymous said...

Barack should just ressurrect the Japanese internment camps and shove these fools in there, making their worst racewar nightmares come true. This is priceless. Priceless! LOL

he doesn't have to, whites fled the inner-city years ago and blacks took over :)

done a great job with haven't they Christopher?

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote][Un]constructive Feedback, you do realize, don't you, that the quote you listed was from your conservative friend and not me.
Sometimes it pays to understand what you are reading BEFORE you comment. [/quote]

Filled Negro - I take it that YOU are not going to answer my question regarding the CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS within the Black Community?

It appears that you are in a conundrum similar to what former Secretary of State Albright faced with respect to GENOCIDE in Rwanda. If you were to LABEL IT AS SUCH then the same machinations used to weed out the terrorist White Supremacist elements who attacked Blacks and suppressed justice would have to be used to weed out the modern day offenders.

Can Black people systematically VIOLATE the Civil Rights of other Blacks, Filled Negro?

false said...

Let me jump onto what Dalit said and add that we are aware of the harm that many black police, prosecutors and politicians do in our communities. But if we brought it up the mainstream would play it off like we were crazy (these blacks are never satisfied).

But if you're worried about civil rights prosecutions only being aimed at whites, I'd be down with prosecuting black cops who shot unarmed white kids in the back ...accidentally...twenty times. Let me know when that happens.

SRG said...

Wait, what's wrong with "My President is Black"? Who knew it was a song about "bigotry"?

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]Constructive Feedback, are you implying that field negro and the rest of us do not want a stronger police force in black communities? Because I never heard anyone say that.[/quote]

dalit -

I am just getting past how SOME Blacks see a "Black man" when a picture of a monkey is shown. I, however, am not going to allow you to CREATE a concept that I said nothing about.

It is true, however, that the same people who are complaining about the profiteering from the so-called "Prison Industrial Complex" would also be loathed to put forth a Law & Order regime to address the problems that exist.

[quote]Subtract that antagonistic tone and I think you will find that everyone here agrees with you.[/quote]

dalit:

Please understand the power of PERSPECTIVE at play. When I read the various posts on this blog I view about 50% of them as being out right hostile and hate filled. Now maybe YOU from where YOU sit, this is music to your ears, thus amplifying the sweet sounds that are affixed in your mind.

[quote] I would LOVE it if the incompetent and woefully understaffed police force in black and/or poor communities was considered a civil rights violation (never mind if that does not make logical sense given the definition of civil rights). Nothing would make me happier than to know that the police actually cares about what happens in these communities.[/quote]

A HA!!!!

So let's play history back for a second. When the "Freedom Riders" were executing their AMERICAN RIGHTS to ride on buses where they damned pleased during the 60's but the LAW ENFORCEMENT suggested that they not come into Dixie because they could not insure their FREEDOM.....why was this FAILURE TO KEEP THE TERRORIST THUGS AT BAY considered a CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATION and thus the POLICE POWERS were attacked as such for failing to uphold their constitutional duties...but this is NOT the case today?

[quote]But I don't like your tone.[/quote]

dalit - lets face it. IT IS NOT MY TONE that bothers you.

Its interesting that Black folks are able to sift through the vile and ignorant lyrics of SOME hip hop artists and listen to the CALL FOR JUSTICE and the PAIN that their condition is placing upon them. I am sure that as an adult you can get past my "tude" and take in my essence. (That or help me to get Filled Negro to remove HIS provocative content, imagery and rhetoric during this august time of CHANGE)

[quote]Are you implying that field negro is somehow linked with with "communities that live through terrorism, intimidation and lawlessness"? Why on earth do you think we would oppose anything you said?[/quote]

Filled Negro is a Defense Attorney. He also admitted to befriending a local drug dealer but doing nothing to "Hate on Him" in his (Filled Negro's) defense of the COMMUNITY.

I assure you that Filled Negro is the biggest advocate there ever was in support of WHISTLE BLOWERS!!! He would rationally conclude that the benefit of the WHOLE is greater than silence in protection of those who are working against these greater interests.

While I think that my friend Filled Negro is a GOOD MAN (ideologically confused and willing to redirect problems toward the outside....but a Good Man none the less) there comes a point when a person, upon seeing a chaotic situation must decide to do as one who has a would be garden that is instead full of weeds would choose to do:

1) Mark off the BOUNDARIES regarding the area of turf he plans to MANAGE

2) Have a sound picture of the END STATE that he is attempting to produce

3) Till the soil, uproot the weeds and plant favorable varieties flowers and plants (this would be NEW THOUGHTS in the case of our communities)

4) Continuously CULTIVATE the plot of land under management to make sure that the WEEDS DON'T grow up and STRANGLE the favorable plants (or shoot a cop dead with an automatic weapon like what happened last weekend in Philly)
4)

Some people focus their time in chasing after OTHER PLOTS OF LAND from where the WEED SEEDS blew in from rather than making sure that these weeds never take root WITHIN their domain of control. In focusing so much upon OTHER'S plots of lands their own plot of land which they purport to care for often goes UNMANAGED.

In addition - some people have a purely EXPANSIONARY bias to their antics. If they can take over a LARGER PLOT OF LAND, imposing upon this bigger parcel the SAME POLICIES THAT HAVE FAILED at the lower level then, they argue, by having MORE CONTROL........the greater portion of land will experience bountifulness. Thus they go on a PERMANENT CHASE. This is the essence of their ACTIVISM.

dalit - the true proof of what you say in the way of a group of citizens wanting CHANGE is expressed NOT in their "spoken INTENTIONS" but instead in their ACTIONS both in SUPPORT OF POSITIVE CHANGE and, most importantly for the Black community: the REPUDIATION for those who are IN POWER, that they formerly supported but upon FAILING TO DELIVER......THEY ARE PURGED as a consequence of this FAILURE.

When an external entity is so embedded into your soul that you feel diminished without them - YOU NEED HELP. This is the same conditioning that many battered women feel in explaining why they did not leave.

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]Let me jump onto what Dalit said and add that we are aware of the harm that many black police, prosecutors and politicians do in our communities.[/quote]

false:

These CIVIL SERVANTS will NEVER be able to turn the tide against an underlying dysfunction within a segment of society.

It is clear to me that upon achieving CHANGE.....the Black Community will have to bear the UNDUE BURDEN of LIFTING OUR OWNSELVES UP toward this greater end.

The people who will be the BIGGEST BENEFICIARIES of the CORRECTED END POINT should logically be the biggest bearers of the load.

What some people fail to see is that in successfully fielding a system that logistically moves us from this comes increased COMPETENCY at maintaining the order and discipline that is necessary to achieve this end.

It is amazing that if you allow certain operatives to tell it - the Black Police man and DA is the biggest criminal agent in the Black community. I always wonder if the INNOCENT BLACK PEOPLE who are residing behind iron bars over their windows are in agreement with this? They have the bars up to keep the police out I guess.

Anonymous said...

[quote]Constructive Feedback, are you implying that field negro and the rest of us do not want a stronger police force in black communities? Because I never heard anyone say that.[/quote]

dalit -

I am just getting past how SOME Blacks see a "Black man" when a picture of a monkey is shown. I, however, am not going to allow you to CREATE a concept that I said nothing about.

With a newborn foal, you observe a checklist of progressive behaviors: Regular breaths, ears up, standing, and nursing. Once the foal has survived these adjustments to life after birth, you're tempted to sigh with relief (and go back to bed!). But to thrive, the foal's digestive system must function in both ingestion and excretion. A newborn can appear normal, yet in his first hours he could suffer a serious problem.

dalit:

Please understand the power of PERSPECTIVE at play. When I read the various posts on this blog I view about 50% of them as being out right hostile and hate filled. Now maybe YOU from where YOU sit, this is music to your ears, thus amplifying the sweet sounds that are affixed in your mind.

Seventy-five percent of all women will experience at least one vaginal yeast infection during her life and many are plagued by recurrent yeast infections. Learning to recognize the symptoms of vaginal yeast infection is vital before women attempt self-treatment.

Symptoms of yeast infection include itching, burning, redness, and irritation of the vaginal area. Severe yeast infections may cause swelling of the vulva and in some cases women experience painful and/or frequent urination which is caused by inflammation of the urinary opening.

dalit - the true causes of constipation means different things to different people. For many people, it simply means infrequent stools. For others, however, constipation means hard stools, difficulty passing stools (straining), or a sense of incomplete emptying after a bowel movement. The cause of each of these "types" of constipation probably is different, and the approach to each should be tailored to the specific type of constipation. Constipation can also alternate with diarrhea. This pattern is more commonly considered as part of the irritable bowel syndrome (IBS). At the extreme end of the constipation spectrum is fecal impaction, a condition in which stool hardens in the rectum and prevents the passage of any stool.

The number of bowel movements generally decreases with age. Ninety-five percent of adults have bowel movements between three and 21 times per week, and this would be considered normal. The most common pattern is one bowel movement a day, but this pattern is seen in less than 50% of people. Moreover, most people are irregular and do not have bowel movements every day or the same number of bowel movements each day.

These CIVIL SERVANTS will NEVER be able to turn the tide against an underlying dysfunction within a segment of society.

The word circumcision means “to cut around”. In male infants, circumcision is an operation which involves tearing the foreskin* away from the glans (head) of the penis, cutting along the top of the foreskin, then clamping the foreskin and cutting it off. The skin of the penis is a complex movable sheath with no clear indication of where it should be cut during a circumcision. This means that the amount of foreskin removed from one circumcision to the next can be very different, and no two circumcisions are the same.

tjwash said...

Funny. When I think of racial cowards, I think of Barack Obama at Jeremiah Wright's church, sitting there week after week, year after year, saying nothing about the separatist demagoguery echoing from the pulpit to the pews.

Heh...I was getting ready to go off on you when I read that Field. Then realized it from Michelle Malkin, showing the world once again, why FOX-Spews lost $6.5 billion dollars last quarter. They are down to scraping the bottom of the barrel, with only the Nazi right listening to them slam Obama 24/7/365 with their racist remarks and outright lies.

Even though the gist of that statement has been debunked and straightened out a million times, it never ceases to amaze me how the faux news pundits make it sound like Reverend Wright was a black panther, or funding middle eastern militias, or bombing abortion clinics. The guy had 2 statements cherry picked from 31 years worth of sermons, and taken way out of context by a horribly biased media, while nasty, backstabbing primaries were rolling at full speed.

The guy was a U.S. Marine for christ-sake. He was also one of the very few stand up people that actually came to the aid of Bill Clinton in his moment of need, and decided to choose friendship over politics. If Obama indeed WAS a coward, it was because the O-man dropped Wright like a hot potato over this false "controversy" instead of standing by him.

Media without accuracy or context, is only a social manipulation tool.

This is why CONTEXT should matter to journalists. But, in reality, what would Malkin really know about being a journalist?

earlgrey said...

I suppose its a nice twist. Now you can feel racially enlightened by saying "my kids have black friends".

Kumbaya Lorie.....

false said...

@ Constructive Feedback

I was careful to speak of "many" police, politicians etc, not "most" or "all".

The problem with crooked civil servants (if it's not obvious) is that: 1. we pay their salaries. 2. they have a license to kill. 3. There is no place to turn when they rip us off. 4. Their ability to rob and steal is usually greater than that of the street criminal.

At least you can throw a burglar in jail if caught.

I agree that we can't expect public servants to solve our problems (see "Obamaholics"). I'd like to point out, yet again, that there are community based organizations in every major city staffed by black folks from the community, who are striving to make positive change in their communities. That these organizations are underfunded, under reported, and largely ineffectual should come as no suprise. In some cases, gang truce initiatives for instance, these efforts are attacked. Poverty and the ills associated with it, are and important element of American capitalism. America doesn't really want black folk to succeed as a group and the historical record bears this out.

RisingTide said...

grinder,
YES NOW. NO FATHER COUGHLIN. NOW IS THE TIME WE SHOULD BEWARE OF, MOST OF ALL. FASCISM IS COMING TO DEMOCRACY. Beware of your fellow man MOST when he is hurting. That's what my relatives would remind me, from out of their burning homes during a pogrom. And that's what, from a larger longer family (ahh, we all family if you look back far enough), my black relatives in America would say, as well.

In the next five to seven years, most western democracies will turn into dictatorships. Watch yourself, fools!

Black_Diaspora,
it's people like you who make me proud to be American. Hearing you speak in such hopeful, confident terms -- I want to just drink that hope down. Might change my cynicism, dunno. ;-)

RisingTide said...

tjwash,
not to mention Rev. Wright marched with Rev. King. ;-)

Police need more police, that's for sure, but they also need roots in the community. I know we can't mandate that they live in the high-crime regions. But would it be so bad to make some of them walk a beat? Have them bring along some candy and talk to some of the kids on the street? Maybe give a hug to some kid who just lost electricity so he's trying to do his schoolwork outside?

The A said...

Grinder- I hear what you are saying but Secretary Holder's remarks are not about individuals.

Anyone familiar with the recent ongoings @ DOJ understands very clearly that Secretary Holder was drawing a line of demarcation between the Bush Administration activities and the Obama Administration. He was bringing and end to an Error and the miscarriages of justice that have been regular business practices for the past 8 years.

szpork- your indignation would've been helpful 5,6,2 years ago when the pirates were raiding the halls of justice to further political agendas.

Unconstructive- I'm sooo glad that you always sign your long winded rants!! Your screen name & icon are like blinking neon signs that say CAUTION: STEAMING HOT VERBAL DIARRHEA! SKIP TO THE NEXT COMMENT

I don't care what everyone else says & thinks, I say you are quite useful!

thanks dude.

Adam said...

Black Diaspora:

Man, I appreciate you sharing that persepctive above.

If I may, I would like to to weigh in a little and try my best to add to what you said...from the perspective of a white man.

I think the fact that many whites do not seem real has a lot to do with the Anglo-Saxon/British/Scandanavian way of now showing vulnerability around others. We are trained and socialized to not show our hearts, emotions, etc... in many areas of life and hence, we deny ourselves the opportunities to be fully human with others. We will cloak ourselves with work, sports, humor and handful of social vices. White people (men anyway) often wonder this about other white people, "How much of myself do I really want to show."

Every wonder why suicides are highest among white males in the U.S. than any other group? I just gave you a partial answer.

The indifference that I hear my cohorts of color (most notably my wife) describe about whites also happens to be the same indifference we often show towards each other.

Many a white men spend a great deal of their internal emotional resources just protecting themselves...to the point where we are not conscious of it.

I suspect you knew a lot of this already, but I thought I would at least try to add a little.

Oh...have a read that article in the Onion about black folks around country who report being creeped out by overly friendly whites.

hennasplace said...

This is the problem that Eric Holder attempted to convey. Lorie does not get it. Somehow, people think it's enough that one black person has made it, but what about the millions of others who are left behind. My goodness, this 2009 and we still are saying he is the first African American, or she is the first female. We still segregate ourselves. There are pockets in this country who not had personal contact with a black person or white person. And we do not have an honest discussion about race, class, or the lack of meritocracy. The fact of the matter things are not handled fairly because we talked ourselves into believing that life isn't fair without consider the possibility that we made it unfair. Lorie mentioned how are daughter plays with the little black girl who lives across the street, but does not mention anything abouth her relationship the girl's parents. Children will play with one another and they do not care if the other child is black or white. Sometimes, the more we supposely mature, we become increasingly sophomoric.

Anonymous said...

The Porch Simian spurts - When the "Freedom Riders" were executing their AMERICAN RIGHTS to ride on buses where they damned pleased during the 60's but the LAW ENFORCEMENT suggested that they not come into Dixie because they could not insure their FREEDOM.....why was this FAILURE TO KEEP THE TERRORIST THUGS AT BAY considered a CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATION and thus the POLICE POWERS were attacked as such for failing to uphold their constitutional duties...but this is NOT the case today?

So the Freedom Riders were thugs?

Dayam!

The poor, pathetic, mentally disturbed Porch Simian is trying for the Guinness World record of Lawn Jockeyship!

Let's assume our poor illiterate buffoon was trying to compare the Police responsibility to protect Civil Rights activists, who were protesting Jim Crow Laws established by the State...

With the rights of citizens under most Governments to freely commerce and travel about their daily affairs without molestation by criminal elements.

Ergo...Apples and Oranges.

Or more specifically the sort of mind numbing stupid monkeyshine exhibited by those coonservative brethren wholly committed to the self-flagellating exercise of sucking racist white conservative penis for a living - much as our, occasionally visiting, Porch Simian gets tongue tied at each and every opportunity.

Holder appropriately references the previous disastrous Rethugly administration's decision to destroy the DOJ Civil Rights Division on a 6 year fruitless search for prosecution of cases where black folks had violated white folks Civil Rights through racial discrimination. Despite totally ignoring the over 16,000 cases a year sent up to DOJ by local authorities as prosecutable instances of racial, ethic, or sexual discrimination...

Our EverReady bun-bungie's Massa's could only find 1 (one) prosecutable case...

That's right, the DOJ with 130,000 people including the FBI searched every nook and cranny of America...

For 6 years...

And only found one case - despite the seeming plethora of anecdotal references by every conservative race pimp in America evidence that black folks were being mean to white folks when they got power.

I mean... Dayam! Were these the same folks searching for WMDs in Iraq?

I guess it would never occur to our nattering nabob macaques of sepia toned right wing indigation...

That actually catching criminal might have been a better use of resources?

BT

daedalus2u said...

This is a very interesting post and commentary. But if you look at who is afraid and who is retreating back into isolation, it is the Conservatives and the Republicans.

Look at Judd Gregg. He approached Obama to be a part of the Obama Administration, Obama said yes, and then Gregg backed away. Something tells me the decision to back away wasn’t reached in a vacuum, that peer-pressure from other Republicans was the major driving force.

Look at the GOP in California. The one Republican who voted to support a compromise on the budget gets voted out as minority leader.

How many in the GOP voted for the stimulus package? Why did they not vote for it? Because they are cowards. They are not afraid of Blacks or Obama, or liberals, they are afraid of their peers. They are afraid of the extremist elements of their own party.

Being afraid of a real danger and doing real and rational things to mitigate that danger isn’t being a coward. Pretending to be afraid of one thing and doing what you know is wrong because you are afraid of something else is being a coward.

The Republicans are cowards. They are afraid of doing the right thing because of the extremist elements of their own party. It was the cowards who went along with McCarthy because they were afraid of being labeled as “soft” on communism. It is the cowards who went along with Bush because they were afraid of being labeled “soft” on terrorists.

I think that it isn’t not having diverse friends that makes you the kind of coward that Holder was talking about, it is being afraid to have diverse friends because of what your other friends will think about you.

It is that cowardice that allows people to pretend that they are not racist while maintaining a completely racist lifestyle. They tell themselves “I am not a racist, but I am afraid my friends won’t understand me not behaving as one”. If you are afraid to not behave as a racist, then you are one.

When Obama broke with Wright, Obama showed that he is not afraid of what his friends, acquaintances, and community think of him. How many Conservatives have repudiated what Rush Limbaugh says? They don’t repudiated what Limbaugh says because they are afraid of him and what his community thinks of them.

brian said...

I'd like to speak to this issue of "cowardice"as I see it.
I am a black man who is eligible for membership in the "Sons of the American Revolution" because of my white ancestors.
Many black americans have white american ancestors and relatives. The DNA is the proof.
How many white american families are ready to reconcile themselves to this fact?
Until we acknowledge and accept our very real connectedness, how can we honestly deal with our dialogue about race?

Adam said...

Brian,

You might be surprised to know that there are numerous white people (like me) who would congratulate you. What I see in your comments is your tenacity and discipline in studying your family history. I have yet to study my own historical family roots that go back to County Cork, Ireland.

You might also be shocked to know there are many white people who probably give you blank stare. Why? Many white folks do not even know what the "Son's and Daughter's of the American Revolution" is.

I hear you on the connectedness. Have you eve seen the film, "A Family Affair" with James Earl Jones and Robert Duvall? (Came out in 1996.) It is a story about a white man and a black man who find out they are brothers.

Anonymous said...

CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK, you are a BLACK MAN, but, you HATE yourself, and you hate your people! you try so hard not to show it, in your writing, but, yet it show's, you are ashamed of your RACE, you speak about the BLACK COMMUNITY as if those (PEOPLE) namely AFRICAN AMERICAN'S are SCUM under your feet, but, oh! I forgot, you are the new and IMPROVED, BLACK MAN!

FEED BACK, I had no idea, that their was so many of you BLACK MEN, ROAMING around AMERICA with their own personal WHIP'S and ROPE'S, but, thank GOD you have been EXPOSED!! we see you on CABLE NEW'S, with your WHIP! you DENOUNCE the PRESIDENT, you do not have a problem with the WHITE MAN'S INJUSTICE, but, yet, you will proudly challenge a BLACK MAN, namely the FIELD NEGRO, JESUS! where did the MASSA, have you MEN hid, oh! I know, you were hid in his BASEMENT, for such a time as this, he released you, because, he knew without a doubt, BLACK MEN, such as yourself, would not hesitate to TERRORIZE and try to belittle another BLACK MAN, namely the FIELD NEGRO, you have a NERVE! each time you post, you uncover yourself, you are a BLACK MAN in need of TOTAL RECONSTRUCTION!

And oh, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, RESPOND BACK!!! I HAVE MORE FOR YOU!!

Anonymous said...

Daedalus - I think you hit it out of the park.

Brian sez - I'd like to speak to this issue of "cowardice"as I see it.
I am a black man who is eligible for membership in the "Sons of the American Revolution" because of my white ancestors.


I think you may be confusing, in at least some instances, cowardice with guilt. One of the most difficult things when you start digging into that trove of ancestral history, is the fact that things your ancestors may have done don't sit well with modern views of right and wrong.

I would believe, wrapping your head around the fact that your ancestors were willing participants and beneficiaries in the institution of slavery is one thing. Wrapping the old noggin around the concept that those same ancestors fathered, or not entirely infrequently mothered children they kept in slavery is about like finding your great grandfather...

Was Jack the Ripper.


BT

Anonymous said...

CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK, you are a BLACK MAN, and a COWARD, and quite possibly, a RAPIST and a CHILD MOLESTER. You HATE yourself, and you HATE your people! You try so hard not to show it, in your writing, but, yet it shows, you are DISGRACE to your RACE, and your GENDER. You speak about the BLACK COMMUNITY as if AFRICAN AMERICAN'S are SCUM under your feet, but, oh! I forgot, you are the new and IMPROVED, BLACK MAN who is probably MARRIED to a WHITE WOMAN!

FEED BACK, I had no idea, that there were so many of you BLACK MEN, ROAMING around AMERICA with their own personal WHIPS and ROPES, but, thank GOD and thank ALLAH you have been EXPOSED!! IDIOT, FOOL, SHITBIRD are YOU.

WE see your ILK on CABLE NEWS, with your WHIP as you DENOUNCE the PRESIDENT, you do not have a problem with the WHITE MAN'S INJUSTICE, but, yet, you will proudly challenge a BLACK MAN, namely the FIELD NEGRO, JESUS, KING, MALCOLM X, and BILL COSBY!

I know, you were hid in his BASEMENT and pretend YOU ARE WHITE, for such a time as this, he released you, because, he knew without a doubt, BLACK MEN, such as yourself, would not hesitate to TERRORIZE and try to belittle another BLACK MAN, but NEVER try it with the WHITE MAN because you are an IMPOTENT COWARD.

BE GONE IDIOT, FOOL and MORON.

culinarychick said...

Field,

This is a great discussion; in fact, I would like to respond but my answer would be five pages long. I will just simply say that although my career path enabled me to make many friends from diverse backgrounds, I always find it exasperating to always have to "explain" racism to my white friends.

It always leads to a heated argument, so I tend not to discuss race, citing to any whites that I may come across that we have to agree to disagree.

I made a resolution this year to not discuss race with anyone who seems to be curious, malicious or anyone who seemingly wishes to secretly confirm hidden bias.

This doesn't mean that I will back down when I am confronted with a racial situation, I just won't discuss it.

Just this past week, as I was enjoying a glass of Grand Marnier at my local watering hole, a man tried to start a conversation about race with me and my companion (we were the only black people in the bar). He started off by making a comment about the editorial photo controversy.

He didn't understand "all of the hub-bub about it."


I cut him off by simply saying that I simply don't discuss race, period. Then I told him if he truly wanted to get some answers about everyday black people, he should get some black friends. I wasn't rude; just kind of matter-of-fact. I then told him if he had some black friends, he would understand the hurt behind the cartoon; he just wasn't going to hear it from me.

Too many times in my life I've run across these people, only to be insulted in a back-handed sort of way. I'm tired of being the local "Negrodamus."

If anyone wants to discuss anything like the economic collapse, the war, guns, abortion, ect., I'm all for it. I won't entertain discussing race at all.

BTW, Field: Thank you so much for the book, "Becoming American," I will read it this weekend!

Adam said...

CulinaryChick:

I liked reading your post. My wife is a woman of color (I am white). She has often said that she gets tired of being pigeon-holed into being "office expert" on "her people".

It is very clear to me why my relatives take a cautious approach to these discussions in public.

rainywalker said...

Field I think the AG was talking about all of us. Its been a couple bad days for the rainy. Fort Carson took down a picture of the President on Presidents Day because of some racists who shop there and my doctor says I need to settle down. I put up a blog about it but the racists are driving me nuts and I just can't walk away from them. I have to look at myself in the mirror.

Anonymous said...

I, TOO, SAW THE BUCHANAN/DYSON VERBAL/FEST ON MSNBC, AND I'M TELLING YOU...WOW! YOU CANNOT
OUT-TALK OR OUT-ARGUE DYSON, AND BUCHANAN, WELL, YOU CAN'T REASON HIS RACIST VIEWS. THE BROADCAST WAS ABSOLUTELY ONE OF THE BEST THAT I'VE SEEN AND HEARD. DYSON IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST AT THIS. AFTER ABSOLUTELY ARGUING HIS PLETHORA OF POINTS, HE ENDED THE DISCOURSE BY SAYING, "THAT'S WHY WE HAVE A BLACK PRESIDENT." THE WHOLE AFFAIR WAS A TREAT TO WATCH. NOW, TO BUCHANAN'S CREDIT, HE, TOO, IS A GREAT DEBATER, EVEN THOUGH I DO NOT AGREE WITH HIS VIEWS ON MOST THINGS. HE AND DYSON WERE GOOD TOGETHER. AND, LIKE FIELD, I, TOO SAW SO MUCH PENT-UP EMOTION IN BUCHANAN'S FACE, UNTIL I KNOW -- ABSOLUTELY KNOW -- THAT IF HE DIDN'T THINK HE'D BE DISINVITED BACK ON THE SHOW AND HIS WORDS COULD BE BE BLEEPED, HE WOULD'VE CALLED DYSON THE 'N-WORD.' I SWEAR THE MAN WAS JUST THAT PUT OUT. THE EXCAHNGE BETW. THE TWO MEN WAS GREAT POLITICAL DEBATE.

Orchid said...

This is really weird, the way Caucasians are reacting to Holder's comments. It's almost like when they heard him say "American" they thought he was talking about Caucasians only, and "coward" meant racist to them. Watching the Pat Buchanan/ Michael Eric Dyson "dialogue" was painful. I remember the host who had replaced Chris Matthews for the night asking Pat "what do you think happens to guys like US when we talk about race?". It really made my stomach turn. I think some whites don't understand that all the flaws taht erupt in every conversation apply to the topic of race too. I don't think some comprehend being challenged on their views. They would rather just say it and just leave it hanging in the air. Be prepared to get challenged people!
Are people that self absorbed? Holder was referring to ALL AMERICANS! And he was referring to people TALKING about race with each other, mingling, educating each other, stop saying "we just elected a Black president" because that still doesn't solve anything lol. Stop being so defensive, go out there, and educate yourself. What is there to argue about?

Anonymous said...

Looks like the Rethugs may be losing whatever pale color they had...

Meanwhile, a coalition of ministers in Louisiana's 2nd Congressional district have filed a petition to recall Rep. Anh Cao (R) for his opposition to the stimulus. Rep. Cao made history last November as the first Vietnamese-American elected to Congress. But the grassroots coalition stated in a press release this week that Cao's spurning of federal stimulus dollars posed a grave threat to the district and state:

Citizens are both concerned and upset about Cao's two votes last week in opposition to President Barack Obama's Economic Stimulus legislation. In addition, citizens are concerned that Representative Cao has irreparably harmed the ability of this District to seek continued assistance from the federal government for the many programs and resources that can assist with the continued rebuilding of this region.


And Bobby Jindal has announced -

"Louisiana "may not be interested in" taking all of the $3.8 billion coming to the state in the recently-passed federal stimulus package."

Think he may be next.

BT

Anonymous said...

As this Faux News Spewing Head finds out...

The Unions and Car companies aren't going to be the Rethugly's new Niggers either -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-nLS6FJtSM

BT

Mike's Searches said...

I'm listed as white here in Raceland, and I'm a United States-ian, and I'm pissed that someone didn't come forward and be as forceful sooner. I spent a large chunk of my early life in Northeast Arkansas, in the racist belt. I found it repugnant, and it hasn't changed much in the 8 years I've been gone. America is cowardly regarding race, why else has there been no real discussion regarding reparations or establishing a commission on slavery that holds accountable corporations and other entities that participated? Peace field much love...mikesearches.blogspot.com

grinder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grinder said...

This is really weird, the way Caucasians are reacting to Holder's comments. It's almost like when they heard him say "American" they thought he was talking about Caucasians only, and "coward" meant racist to them.

In theory, a valid point. You're right, Holder didn't point at white people. In practice, maybe not so valid. It's difficult to read Holder's speech without understanding it as an accusing finger pointed at white America.

Now, I'm not going batshit about that for a bunch of different reasons, the biggest two being that I'm accustomed to the accusations and that they're often at least partly true.

At the same time, though, for a prominent representative of a "change" administration, Holder's comments seemed at least partly stuck in an earlier time. I am NOT one of these people who thinks that Obama's election means that we've taken care of our racial divisions, but I think that, if you average it all together, the United States is in a very different place than it was 40 years ago.

That's the essence of my misgivings with Holder's speech. It would've been a great speech in 1968 or even 1978, but in 2009? It sounds out of step. Also, beyond that, I'm not sure it's wise for a public servant to use the word "coward" with reference to the people who sign his paycheck. This reaction has nothing to do with the person or ethnic background of the person who used the word, or with the issue he spoke about. To me, it was disrespectful.

But, it ends there: Whites, to me, don't seem real.

They lack a three-dimensioned reality. They seem flat, and foreign. Their energy bounce up against me, making little impact, leaving me untouched my their vapid presence.


Black Diaspora, I appreciate what you wrote. What really came through was your honesty and your humanity. You put yourself into that comment. It wasn't a throwaway line of some sort. Too much of the internet consists of throwaway lines where nothing's at stake.

Segregation turns people into objects in the minds of others. When I was growing up, all black people literally looked alike to me. I actually wondered how black people could tell each other apart. Now how crazy is that?!

I think back on that and I cringe, but it's how things were. To some extent, it's how things are. We'd like to believe we'll look at everyone as individuals, but the practical reality is that we don't have the time. So, we've got to recognize the individuality of people, even if we can't engage it.

In my primitive recesses, I associate black people all kinds of things: noise, jazz, crime, depth, suffering, forgiveness, hostility, warmth, hip-hop, persistence, disorder. But I can say that, over time, I look into more black peoples' eyes, and then I pick and choose.

Orchid said...

Grinder. I don't see anything disrespectful about what he said. He was not discounting that progress has been made in the area of race relations, in terms of equal opportunities in the work place, etc etc.
He was saying that, when it comes to average Americans talking with each other about race, they are cowards. That, to me, is an accurate statement. It's a perfect speech for 2009. I don't remember mentioning you when I was talking about people who use the "black president" mantra when talking about this specific topic. I personally have no problem with what Holder said, because the evidence is clear in our everyday lives. I also think that there was no better way for him to put that frankly without people overlooking it.

Anonymous said...

ANONYMOUS 4:54 is your comment, in reference to what I posted at 4:06? feed back needed.

People let's face the fact, a portion of WHITE AMERICA could care less about a DISCUSSION, to put it BLUNTLY, they do not want to have any thing to do with us! and ERIC HOLDER is full aware of that fact!

I think he chose his word's wisely, considering the circumstance's in AMERICA, AFRICAN AMERICAN'S are not the blame for the DIVISION in the COUNTRY, it is the WHITE MAN'S doing.

GOD forbid a BLACK MAN work's hard, and can afford to move his family into a WHITE COMMUNITY, he will get a BURNING CROSS on his LAWN, a ROPE with a noose on his tree, in other word's, his life will be a LIVING HELL!!!

THE truth is WHITE AMERICA find place's to hide out at, so they can avoid having contact with AFRICAN AMERICAN'S, case in point, the CAMPAIGN, did you see the face's of those WHITE PEOPLE at the MACCAIN/PALIN rally's, now tell me, if those face's, looked as if they were ready to have a DISCUSSION with AFRICAN AMERICAN'S, or any other MINORITY'S.

Marc B said...

First the PC liberals do everything they can to silence people from speaking frankly about racial matters. And by-and-large, white folks voluntary muzzle themselves en mass. But now that AG Holder gets a wild hair that has been tickling him for a while, so all of a sudden it's time to have an honest dialogue. Not that race relations have a thing to do with his job, but I suppose he was unable to quench his desire to spend a summer as camp counselor while he was ambitiously moving up the ladder.

I call BS on this. What I suspect he really wants is for white folks to listen to the grievances of EVERY other race and internalize that anger others feel towards them, all while denying themselves any moral authority to speak honestly about their feelings to members of those races.

I say we all just maintain the best of our separate associations on weekends and be as cordial to each other as we can muster in each others presence. If even the most virulent racists/bigots have manners, it really doesn't matter what is rolling around in their dome. Unless of course if you're pushing for a Socialist style reeducation, and the even the universities have trouble with that task. Your average white college kid wants to get drunk and get laid as often as possible, all while getting the highest grades while putting in least amount of work. It's usually the do-gooder lib-rals and sensitive lads that get successfully suckered into the white guilt trip for more than a semester.

Anytime I've had conversations about race that got below skin deep, I find I've had more common ground, at least with black folks, in terms of our mutual antipathy and prejudices towards each others race. Not that I think the bulk of black folks have a seething hatred for whites or vice versa, but we just have a preference for the home team. And that preference tend to shape our views stronger than anything else. KUM-BY-YA

Anonymous said...

Hate to bring this up...

But I bought a house in a "white community" 20 years ago Anon 11:24...

Haven't seen a cross in the front yard yet.

Although one of the lady's down the street did manage to put her Volvo through my fence during an ice storm...

Does that count?

grinder said...

Grinder. I don't see anything disrespectful about what he said.

I think a government official should think long and hard before calling Americans "cowards," regardless of the reason.

I think it's disrespectful on its face to use that word. In the spirit of Ecclesiastes, there is a season for everything including disrespect, but I think Holder went too far by using that particular word.

People let's face the fact, a portion of WHITE AMERICA could care less about a DISCUSSION, to put it BLUNTLY, they do not want to have any thing to do with us!

Hey, there's a portion of black America that doesn't want anything to do with white America. And on and on. There is "a portion" of this country -- actually more than a few "portions" -- who are into some of the freakiest shit you'd never imagine.

Who knew, for example, that there are thousands of young white people running around the country painting their faces like clowns, calling themselves "juggalos," and committing murders and other weird crimes (like assaulting teenagers with reproductions of Medieval weapons) because they think their favorite band, "Insane Clown Posse," told 'em it was cool?

Every morning, a couple million Americans get up and have a conversation with an imaginary person in the attic. A couple million people will eat breakfast, and then puke it right back up on purpose. And on and on and on and on.

This is a big country, and about 1 in 10 people in it are snuggling right up to the edge of insanity. So don't tell me what "a portion" of white people are doing. Come on.

Orchid said...

In the end, the message has been put forth. Do with it what you will. If you want to waste time on dissecting the words he used, and ignoring the initial message, then so be it. I think that despite the reaction of some people, others will actually listen and take the message to heart. I think some serious, open dialogue is needed. And again, people should not be afraid to be challenged. If you feel what you have to say is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then you should have no problem defending it. That's what I believe.

Dark Moon said...

For me, whites have never seemed real.

Oh, sure, they're human in the same sense that I'm human. Sure, we share a common humanity where we might commiserate one with the other regarding certain negative outcomes, and celebrate certain positive ones.


That is interesting Black Diaspora because White people are very real and very visceral to me. I am continually tasked to prove that I am relevant to them at work, at school and in seemingly benign social settings. I do agree that I am probably a 2-dimensional character to them--perhaps a mere functionary that is not fully fleshed out or real and thus easy to ignore and dismiss but that awful cold way that they manage to see right through you as not even there effects me more than it should. I can tell them apart very easily. I can differentiate hair color, skin textures, eyes, even smell in the same way that I can differentiate every day Black people that I see in my neighborhood and the spaces I frequent. I can probably draw them in detail whereas it is doubtful they could see beyond my skin tone. I have had this happen to me too many times to count that many Whites cannot see me or other Black people at all. It is a weird kind of intimacy that has a simiar dynamic to servants have with their employers. They can anticipate their needs, know when they are tired hungry or out of sorts and they respond but the employer cannot even recall the servants face. Not that I am subservient, but it’s odd that I can see them clearly whereas they cannot.

The thing is that when racial issues do come up when I as a Black person attempt to fill in the lines to color in my experiences, I am dismissed as being hate filled, racist, an anachronism and that I am stuck in the past. Interesting that when racism comes up and I use generalities to explain my reality I am told that I don’t understand all white people and that there is complexity in their experiences. Of course I am never accorded the same courtesy. I am thrown FBI stats, IQ results, their own unfortunate experiences with Blacks as proof that their assessments of my race and my character are more valid and of course it goes along the lines of when they say it or identify the problem, its relevant, but when a black person does it it’s just more whining, schizoid-scare mongering victim speak that should be relegated to ignore. Thus I wonder, how do they want us to speak to them? How do they want the problem presented? Should we always be concilatory? Should we always be obsequious, apologetic and humble in our speech patterns in order for it to mean more to so that others will listen?

This only exacerbates the problem of Black invisibility and being seen in most instances as a separate species by some whites and others, thus how in the world can some Whites and others manage to find any commonality with Black people.

I always find it exasperating to always have to "explain" racism to my white friends.

It always leads to a heated argument, so I tend not to discuss race, citing to any whites that I may come across that we have to agree to disagree.

I made a resolution this year to not discuss race with anyone who seems to be curious, malicious or anyone who seemingly wishes to secretly confirm hidden bias.

This doesn't mean that I will back down when I am confronted with a racial situation, I just won't discuss it.

I also agree with culinarychicks point about discussing race with Whites and some non-black people. I just don’t have the energy or the will to represent and defend my race against the smugness and the insolent dismissal of my experience as a Black person. It’s just not worth expanding the dialogue to keep saying the same thing over and over.

grinder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grinder said...

Your average white college kid wants to get drunk and get laid as often as possible, all while getting the highest grades while putting in least amount of work.

This reminds me of the comment in 1976 by Earl Butz, the Agriculture Secretary for Gerald Ford, that black people want "loose shoes, tight pussy, and a warm place to take a shit."

I remember this really well because it my first presidential election, and the comment was just so far out there that all I could do is laugh my ass off at the sheer brazen stupidity of it, not to mention the crudeness that you'd expect out of an agriculture secretary.

I also remember thinking that Butz's real mistake was that he painted with too narrow a brush. Black people? Hell, all people. Metaphorically speaking, anyway.

Black Diaspora said...

"That is interesting Black Diaspora because White people are very real and very visceral to me." Black Moon

If I've learned anything Black Moon in this life, it's that I have lived a "solitary" existence.

Now, that statement may surprise you, just as did my previous statement.

You see, Black Moon, I'm utterly alone, notwithstanding the company of others.

You, just as I am, are alone in this world. We don't think that we are because we have our senses to keep us company--all five of them, and some of us can boast at least one more, but that's for another time, and for another discussion.

Who and what would you be without those senses?

Now that you've answered that, answer this: who gets to decide what matters and what doesn't matter?

Who gets to choose what's real and what isn't real?

Now that you've answered that, answer this: who or what gives meaning to your life?

Is it another, or is it you?

I purposely sought to shake up your perception a bit with my words. If I succeed, it will shake up your experience as well.

"I am continually tasked to prove that I am relevant to them [whites] at work, at school and in seemingly benign social settings."

It's impossible to be "relevant" to any one but yourself. Ultimately, you can only relate to yourself, as you're the only one that really matters.

I know that what I've said may seem cloaked in mystery, and perhaps appear nonsensical, but think it over, and think it through.

If you do, you may come to the profound realization that nothing matters at all.

If it did matter, it wouldn't, couldn't, matter to you.

field negro said...

Marc B, Dark Moon, Grinder, and DB, et al. I swear you all have me wanting to write that book now. You all don't mind if I lift your comments for a page or two, do you? Those were some seriously good comments.

I love honesty. Thank you!


"Although one of the lady's down the street did manage to put her Volvo through my fence during an ice storm...

Does that count?"

Nope, only if she did it on purpose.....well actually, it does count. She was driving a Volvo. Now had she been driving a Ford, on the other hand...

Rudy said...

Eric Holder is entitled to his opinion, with which I slightly disagree.

After having so many disappointing encounters with other racial groups, I am not in the cowardice group. I am in the fatigued group.

I am just tired of having the same predictable encounters with particular racial groups. I am so tired that I have pretty much withdrawn into myself racially.

I am that person that Eric Holder talks about about who retreats to his racial group on the weekends.

Again, I am just tired.

daedalus2u said...

Why some people seem "flat" or "fake" does relate to my research in autism.

The only way that any type of communication happens (language, body language, signing, flirting, etc) is for the first person to have a mental concept, translate that mental concept into a communication medium, transmit the communication medium data stream to another individual, and then the second individual translates that data stream into a mental concept. The only things that can be "communicated" are mental states. If your brain doesn't have the neurological structures to support a certain mental state, you don't have the ability to think the mental concept that requires that mental state.

All communication is necessarily two-way. It requires both a sender and a receiver, and the method they use to translate the data stream into mental concepts must be "the same". If it isn't "the same", then the fidelity of the communication goes down and the error rate goes up. The mental structure to translate a communication data stream into mental concepts is called a "theory of mind". Essentially your "theory of mind" emulates the "theory of mind" of the individual generating the communication data stream so that you can understand the mental state that led to the communication.

Virtually all of the translating of data into mental states happens automatically and we are not consciously aware of it. If your "theory of mind" doesn't match the "theory of mind" of the person you are trying to communicate with, you can't communicate. When that happens, I think it triggers xenophobia, as in the uncanny valley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

I think there are two ways this can happen, the most common way is due to a lack of common references. This is the "normal" xenophobia of racism, of ageism, of religious bigotry, of gender discrimination, of homophobia, of politics. If the two people don't share "the same" "theory of mind" because they grew up in different cultures/environments where they learned a different mapping of sounds, gestures, expressions into mental representations, they can't communicate. You can expand the range of your "theory of mind" by learning more, by getting to understand how other people with a different "theory of mind" think.

The second way is more difficult to understand. In the autism spectrum disorders, there is a specific disruption to the cognitive structures that mediate these "theory of mind" communication effects. People on the autism spectrum don't have the same capacity to understand and to project via a "theory of mind". To people on the autism spectrum, everyone seems "flat" because people on the spectrum don't have the capacity to see the nuanced details that people not on the spectrum can see. To people not on the autism spectrum, people on the spectrum seem "weird" and it triggers xenophobia. I think this is why children on the autism spectrum are so vulnerable to bullying, and why bullies pick on them so much. The ASD child triggers xenophobia in the bully, so the bully becomes abusive. This happens in adults too. ASD adults are bullied too. I think for the same reasons.

When two people can't communicate, the normal human inclination is to blame the other individual for the difficulty. One externalizes the inability to communicate and imputes ill will or pathology on the other individual.

If you look at the autism literature, and in particular if you follow what the anti-vax curebie loonies are doing to their children with autism, it will break your heart. Many of these so-called autism advocacy groups demonize children with autism so they can raise money to support "cures". I think that what they are doing is playing the "xenophobia card". Trying to foster increased hatred toward children with autism so that they can raise more money to enrich themselves while working toward a "cure" which will make these children more difficult to hate.

The "cure" that is being looked for is to turn autistic children "normal". That is (in my opinion), exactly like trying to "cure" someone of being black by turning them white and extinguishing all "black-type" behaviors and features and replace them with "white-type" behaviors and features. Essentially turn them into house Negroes. There are some autistic individuals who want to be "cured". I see them simply as wanting to become house Negroes.

I do have Asperger's, which is on the spectrum, and people do look flat to me, black, white, it doesn't matter. I know there is a lot of communication going on which is completely over my head. I know it is there but I can't understand or participate in it.

That was what I was trying to talk about in the post on "the rules" of dating. For most of "the rules" there is no rhyme or reason, they are completely arbitrary (just like most language). Dumping someone because he doesn’t follow "the rules" is like the cowardice that Holder was talking about and which I mentioned earlier. Treating someone a certain way because you are afraid of how your peers will treat you if they find out.

grinder said...

Field, you're more than welcome to cite my comments here in anything you say or write.

grinder said...

By the way, here is a right-wing response to Holder that makes some good, uncomfortable points.

grinder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grinder said...

I saw an interesting rebuttal to the accusation that blacks have sky-high rates of unwed births.

It states that, among poor blacks, the rates of out-of-wedlock births have remained pretty constant for 100 years. What's happened is that, as a portion of the black population has become affluent, their within-wedlock birth rates have fallen dramatically, as tends to happen with affluence.

As a result, the high rate of out-of-wedlock births among poor people skews the numbers, or so the rebuttal argues.

I'm intrigued by the rebuttal, but I'd need to see more math before I can accept it. The rebuttal does not give enough data to prove that the rising percentage of births being out-of-wedlock (which has occurred among whites, too) is solely a function of falling marital birth rates.

Also, there's no explanation of why the percentage of black out-of-wedlock births is so much higher than it is among whites. If you control for poverty rates, what's the comparison? And within economic classes, what's the comparison? The rebuttal does not address those questions.

And then there are the issues of crime and education, which are not covered by the rebuttal. In general, I think the "cowardice" on race might reflect a tacit bargain: "In return for taking down formal segregation and overlooking the realities of dysfunctional culture and behavior among many blacks, whites want blacks to shut up about racism."

If Holder wants to strike a new bargain, then he ought to be prepared for some frank discussion in return. Personally, I welcome it. I think black social dysfunction hurts blacks more than it hurts whites, so really going after these things will benefit blacks first. But it's not going to be easy, because a whole lot of the crap that goes on among black people has nothing to do with white racism.

Mr. A. said...

I think Eric Holder was talking about me. However, I disagree with his choice of words. I am not a coward with it comes to a dialogue on race. I am a realist.

In my opinion, dialogues on race never yield fruit or take the direction intented. They always turn out to be accusatory and generalizing (e.g., the Pat Buchannan and Eric Dyson shouting match on Hardball or citing of meaningless statistics).

In order to have a healthy discussion about race and its associated problems, both sides must admit their shortcomings. If neither side can do this, then what's the point in having a discussion?

At this point, I don't think either side is capable of admitting their shortcoming (whites moreso than blacks, in my opinion).

The best we can hope for at this point it keep our racial animus to ourselves, treat each other with civility (even if we must fake it) and clean up the inevitable flare ups that will emerge along the way.

grinder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grinder said...

But it's not going to be easy, because a whole lot of the crap that goes on among black people has nothing to do with white racism.

By the way, I have said the same for many years to those gay people who'd want to blame rampant promiscuity, drug use, and STD rates on shame and oppression from the larger society.

There is a grain of truth there, in the sense that young people who break away from suffocating circumstances can tend to go a little wild, especially when young. And in the 1970s, the relaxation of legal, social, and cultural restraints followed a very oppressive period, so there was bound to be an overreaction.

But still, it eventually boils down to decisions that individuals make for themselves. No one forces a gay guy to use crystal meth and then go have unprotected sex with dozens or hundreds of people. He did that himself, and he can file his complaint in the nearest mirror. And no one forced some black gang-banger to take up a life of crime and ruin himself and the people around him. He had a terrible upbringing? Cry me a fuckin' river.

Courage is an interesting concept. If Eric Holder wants us to be brave, then let's have everyone be brave.

Anonymous said...

daedalus sez - The "cure" that is being looked for is to turn autistic children "normal". That is (in my opinion), exactly like trying to "cure" someone of being black by turning them white and extinguishing all "black-type" behaviors and features and replace them with "white-type" behaviors and features.

You just hit the crux of the two opposing arguments on race in America. For the sake of discourse let's call them Harmonization versus Homogenization.

Put simply, Harmonization is the concept that different groups can successfully live together and inter operate with a willingness towards mutual progress and self serving goals. It is the parent of Diversity.

Homogenization is the concept that smaller groups should be absorbed by a larger entity, and thus success is guaranteed by the commonality. Supporters of the concept point to Japan as a society which has enjoyed tremendous success under strict rules of societal behavior and “norms”. In America the concept has been expressed as the “Melting Pot”, in discussions among Civil Rights pioneers it was often discussed as “Absorption”.

It is an argument which has gone on, independently in the black community since the ending of Slavery.

Now, for Grinder's acceptance of the modern day lynching of black folks by modern day conservative racists such as Pat Buchanan. Ida Wells was probably the first to recognize that -

For Wells, blacks were not excluded and lynched because they were incompetent, or non-competitive, or uneducated, or somehow lacking in intellect. The most important and obvious desideratum was that post-bellum freedom for blacks, were it allowed, would immediately subvert the preeminence of erstwhile masters. The white oligarchy employed terror to prevent just this subversion. The object of this terror was not to drive blacks to compete. It was to ensure, on the contrary, that they did not, and dared not compete. The purpose was not to exclude all black input but rather to restrict it to a permanently subordinate and inferior level (within a community already de facto integrated in some degree in virtually every sphere: genetic, economic, social, and cultural)....

http://books.google.com/books?id=HuiKK5zWfpcC&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=Civil+Rights+Black+community+absorption&source=bl&ots=42vaMbMsXi&sig=Pa8dI-miPfXSvoqwQaJetm0VE3I&hl=en&ei=uHqgScOJO5W6twfI182CDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA45,M1

Pages 45-49

What we have today is a replacement of physical lynching with what Clarence Thomas euphemistically coined as a “High-Tech Lynching” by a plethora of white racist conservative “authors”, validated by their captive black conservative savants (AKA Lawn Jockeys in Field parlance), pseudo-scientifically documenting the dysfunctionality of the black community. Within the echo chamber of the conservative owned media, such decidedly unscientific, faulty, and racist treatises have been given loud vocalization and “credence” far and beyond what any scientific examination of the methods and conclusions of such racially motivated “authors” would merit. Indeed, has been expressed before on numerous other forums utilizing the false analysis and fake math of the conservative shills, it is just as easy to draw a dire picture of white dysfunction – albeit in different areas of moral depredation.


To Ida Wells point, the one group of people entirely invisible to conservative racist scions is the black middle class. With the elevation of a member of that group to the highest office in the land, we can expect a virtual apoplexy amongst white conservatives and their black savants rehashing the same old tired, dull saws of black illegitimacy and criminality...

Not the least of which is “principled resistance” to every single initiative sought by the Obama administration.

BT

grinder said...

Now, for Grinder's acceptance of the modern day lynching of black folks by modern day conservative racists such as Pat Buchanan.

What?!

Anonymous said...

I didn't say support...

I said accept.

Let's play the "numbers" game.

According to experts, 3 out of 7 white children will be sexually molested before they reach the age of 15 - typically by a close relative. Furher near 60% of white kids will live in broken homes at some part of their lives, AND 96% of the people locked up for molesting a child under 6...

Are white.

Now, you got two choices.

Either white folks (and white society) are a pack of deviant child rapists...

Or it's far more likely the parents of white children will report abuse, far more likely that the police will investigate it, far more likely the prosecutors will prosecute it...

And far more likely the defendants will be convicted than in other crimes.

Your choice.


BT

Alarming Female said...

Wow. Thank you, Field, for this provocative and insightful post and discussion.

I agree 100% with Eric Holder, and I've often said so. As I high school teacher, I regularly have frank discussions with my (mostly white) students about racism and white privilege, and about using that privilege to promote positive change.

Btw, on Friday one of my students brought up the NY Post cartoon for discussion. Interestingly enough, not a single student had any trouble seeing why the cartoon was racist and jaw-droppingly offensive. In predominately white Salt Lake City, mind you.

Again, thank you for your always interesting take on things, and for providing substance for another school day's worth of honest and productive discussion about race and racism in America.

grinder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grinder said...

I didn't say support...

I said accept.


Would you like to explain your de facto accusation that I'm a hard-core racist, or do you figure that it's perfectly acceptable to throw insults at people and then run away when they call you out for it?

By the way, I am no fan of Pat Buchanan, but who has he "lynched," and when? And what constitutes "acceptance" of this so-called "lynching?" How have I "accepted" it any more than you have?

Dark Moon said...

If I've learned anything Black Moon in this life, it's that I have lived a "solitary" existence.

Now, that statement may surprise you, just as did my previous statement.

You see, Black Moon, I'm utterly alone, notwithstanding the company of others.

You, just as I am, are alone in this world. We don't think that we are because we have our senses to keep us company--all five of them, and some of us can boast at least one more, but that's for another time, and for another discussion.



Black Diaspora—actually your second point doesn’t surprise me that much compared to your first post in that because we are a minority, I am quite sure that many Blacks have been programmed to differentiate the uniqueness of Whites compared to Whites being able to truly see us as individuals and not a cardboard cut-out. If we are able to accept our own uniqueness as individuals as well as a group than we wouldn’t have a history of Passing or preferring to alter our own features in favor of the features, mores, and attitudes of White people at the risk of our own true selves.

Of course, I really do get the existential point that ultimately we are all alone and that are responsible for our own feelings, emotions, thoughts and actions, however we could not have survived as a species without group cooperation. Group membership and its strength to protect, to educate, to disseminate, and to propagate is at the heart of human existence. And of course if we are to be comfortable with ourselves, then we should be cognizant of our cultural pathology to be like or more to the point to be accepted by Whites who can never truly see many of us as the same as them on a fundamental level no matter what geneticists say about a sole African ancestor. I don’t know how many times I have heard Whites say you can’t force cultural acceptance, wanting to live together and the desire for the dominant group to retain their private spaces. But even as we congregate in public there is a tacit understanding that you are wholly not there which renders whatever grievance, feeling and thoughts, ideas and individuality of that Black person as no more than a 2 Dimensional footnote. Rugged individualism is fine if most blacks can say that they have the foundations of cultural permanency and relevancy that are the building blocks of identity. Blacks’ link to Africa is a tenuous now compared to the cultural cobbled stones that have continually shifted as we still try to find our American identity and at the root of that is unequivocal acceptance of White people. Pluralism does not have to be an either or proposition. You can still claim group membership as well as one’s own individuality even as you are condemned to ultimately die alone.

In any case I appreciate your point Black Diaspora even though I disagree with the idea that identity and individuality can be created in a vacuum. Who we are is predicated on culture, social and familial experiences, as well as our own reality of mind. If we are already inundated with a cultural disadvantage that continually questions the right to our existence, then this will continue to perpetuate some of the pathologies that plague our community. Perhaps I am still not clear how you are able to retain peace of mind, construct a believable and intact identity, while still being connected to and proud of the community (if I may make that assumption) without succumbing to said pathologies.

Thanks Field Negro.

Black Diaspora said...

"Perhaps I am still not clear how you are able to retain peace of mind, (if I may make that assumption) without succumbing to said pathologies."

There are at least two levels from which I could respond to your statement (the absolute, which many insist doesn't exist) and the relative (that realm with which we contend daily).

Let's stay with the relative:

First "retain peace of mind": I am what I say am.

Therefore, I choose happiness over conflict, and harmony over discord. What's going on around me, culturally, socially, politically, cannot negatively impact that unless I choose for it to.

I don't so choose.

Second: "construct a believable and intact identity, while still being connected to and proud of the community..."

Again, I am who I say I am, and my world is what I say it is.

Granted, from the relative perspective, the world seems chaotic and self-destructive. But that is on the surface.

Perfection lurks just below the surface even if we don't always have the eyes to see it. I don't mean this just in a metaphysical sense, but in a physical, relative sense as well.

Let me illustrate. The illustration will only skim the surface of what is meant, but it may make my point.

Shakespeare said it best when he wrote:

"Sweet are the uses of adversity
Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, Wears yet a precious jewel in his head...."


And not so elegantly, we have this:

"Every dark cloud has a silver lining."

Unfortunately, these two saying are threadbare from much use, but they still carry a tremendous truth: perfection (a positive outcome, a positive use) can be found anywhere, no matter the source, if we only look.

So I have accepted that that is so, and as I look for it, perfection, that is, in the muck of daily living, I find it shining through every where I look.

It's merely a matter of perception, which is merely a matter of perspective.

Change one's perspective and you change everything, both perception and experience.

Third: "...without succumbing to said pathologies...."

If the pathology comes forth because I succumb to the negative assessment of others, how they perceive me, then I've committed a grievous sin against the self--that is, I've chosen not to be self-created, but other-created.

I won't allow that.

I won't give up my God-given right to self-creation, self-approbation, self-realization, and self-actualization.

The soul insists that I keep the integrity of the self inviolate, untrammeled by life's petty concerns, and foibles.

Never tire in this endeavor. How else can you evolve?

In this, I have a secret weapon. I get to call a thing whatever I choose.

In this, I'm not restricted, but have unfettered freedom.

My experience is whatever I say it is, nothing more and nothing less.

In that, I experience "dominion" over all my worlds--both externally and internally.

"In any case I appreciate your point Black Diaspora even though I disagree with the idea that identity and individuality can be created in a vacuum."

Precisely. Which is why relationships, and relativity should be treasured for what they are--an opportunity to shape the self, to determine who and what it is we wish to me.

Although you can't help but live a solitary existence, it doesn't have to be lived in vain.

You can use all that your senses bring you to create yourself anew (however you wish to perceive the self), without believing that what you see, and what you're told, is who and what you are.

It's not.

What you see doesn't matter. If it did, if couldn't, wouldn't matter to you.

Be glad that nothing matters, so that you have the opportunity, the wonderful, Grand Privilege, to make it matter any which way you like, any which way you please, and any which way that pleases you.

If you so choose, no urging, or prompting here, just an invitation, we can take this conversation to the e-mail stage.

As in life, and all things, you get to choose.

Anonymous said...

grinder temporizes - Would you like to explain your de facto accusation that I'm a hard-core racist, or do you figure that it's perfectly acceptable to throw insults at people and then run away when they call you out for it?

Oh My! "Frankness" is fine as long as it runs one way...

No, grinder, I didn't call you a "hardcore racist" - I simply questioned why you would lend credence and relevancy to one set of numbers and not another. If that makes you fell like a "hardcore racist"...

Then if the shoe fits...

Jacques Ellul said -

“(Propaganda) proceeds by psychological manipulations, character modifications, by creation of stereotypes useful when the time comes - The two great routes that this sub-propaganda takes are the conditioned reflex and the myth”

Ergo, the most effective propaganda, is based on what the targeted audience is predisposed to believe. Looking at the history of pograms against Jews in Europe going back 1000 years or more, Hitler didn't invent animosity towards Jews - he simply used propaganda to make it more virulent through pronouncements of Jewish depravities against the "German people".

Ergo, Buchannan et al's racist pseudo-scientific pronouncements don't manufacture racists out of whole cloth...

They require some material to start with.

Insofar as "running away" - as a card carrying member of that invisible black middle class, you may not be able to see me...

But I'm right here in front of you.



BT

grinder said...

I simply questioned why you would lend credence and relevancy to one set of numbers and not another.

No, you coward, you wrote: "Now, for Grinder's acceptance of the modern day lynching of black folks by modern day conservative racists such as Pat Buchanan."

You didn't mention any numbers. You smeared me then, and now you're lying about it, ya snake. Why are you afraid to back up your posting?

Anonymous said...

No... You smeared yourself, grinder.

And then there are the issues of crime and education, which are not covered by the rebuttal. In general, I think the "cowardice" on race might reflect a tacit bargain: "In return for taking down formal segregation and overlooking the realities of dysfunctional culture and behavior among many blacks, whites want blacks to shut up about racism."

That's about as clear a rationalization for white racism as it gets. It's racism, because of your automatic acceptance that white culture is perfect, and therefore any variance between black culture and white culture is therefore contemptible.

It ignores the simple fact that white culture in America is dysfunctional - even if the comparison is between American whites and their European counterparts (the white murder and violent crime rates a 2-6 times higher than any non-eastern bloc country except England and Australia). And that is before we get to the fact that white American culture has a whole range of dysfunctional behaviors uniquely it's own.

It's racism, because it calls uniquely on black folks to cure their dysfunctional behaviors, while ignoring the fact that those behaviors neither developed, nor continue to occur in a vacuum.

It's racism, because it holds hostage the far larger segment of the black population in the US, to the behaviors of a small urban segment through stereotypes.

Question of the hour, grinder... Why is it that in the Washington, DC metro area, middle class and upper class blacks choose to self segregate in what is probably one of the areas of the country with the lowest levels of white racial animosity? I mean - NoVa and Maryland aren't Alabama, where a few districts still feel the necessity to hold segregated proms.

Might just be that if I have the resources to live in a neighborhood where I don't have to worry about my kids being victim to some gang-banger shootout walking home from school...

I also don't want to live in an area where the fear that my kids may be attacked by some pervert has virtually eliminated kids being able to go out and play, unsupervised, with other kids in the neighborhood.

So cut the shit about how black dysfunctional behaviors are cause celebre for continued white racism...

Because it's a faulty construct from the get go.


BT

uptownsteve said...

BT

On point as usual.

Anonymous said...

Steve - the thing about conservatives is...

If the objective is to get laid, maybe the best way for our conservative fellows to cut back on their hand cream budget might well be to consider revamping their opening line...

"I hear fat chicks are great in bed..."

BT

uptownsteve said...

ROTFLMBAO!!!!!!!

grinder said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
grinder said...

No... You smeared yourself, grinder.

How so, cowardly liar?

So cut the shit about how black dysfunctional behaviors are cause celebre for continued white racism.

You're not even coherent. Try your lame, psuedo-intellectual "construct" on someone who might actually fall for it.

uptownsteve said...

"Try your lame, psuedo-intellectual "construct" on someone who might actually fall for it."

The sound of a man who has been essentially shut up.

grinder said...

uptownsteve, no, I haven't been "shut up." What happened here is that a cowardly, lying S.O.B. thought he'd do a drive-by smear job, and I'm not going to let that pathetic attempt go unremarked.

Neither the anonymous coward who did it, nor apparently you, are going to actually state their case. Instead, they'll just keep it up with the ad hominems on the assumption that my crushing burden of guilt will make me buckle under the accumulated load of my white privilege.

Good luck with that.

Anonymous said...

Grinder whimpers - "You're not even coherent."

Followed by caterwauling:

"Neither the anonymous coward who did it, nor apparently you, are going to actually state their case. Instead, they'll just keep it up with the ad hominems on the assumption that my crushing burden of guilt will make me buckle under the accumulated load of my white privilege."

Sobbingly whining -

"If Eric Holder wants us to be brave, then let's have everyone be brave."

Not THAT is funny!

"Cry me a fuckin' river..."

Indeed.

grinder said...

Anon, it would seem that you are still too much of a cowardly liar to substantiate your original smear, which went like this: "Now, for Grinder's acceptance of the modern day lynching of black folks by modern day conservative racists such as Pat Buchanan."

Come on, cough up that hairball. What's on your mind, fraidycat?

uptownsteve said...

I happened to watch the Buchanan/Dyson Hardball exchange on You Tube during lunch and was outraged, angered,revulsed and saddened all at the same time.

The next time some rightwinger comes whining about "political correctness" ask them how an unbashed racist hater like Buchanan still has a nightly perch on a national cable news show.

For Buchanan the race issue in America comes down to black crime and illegitimacy.

That's it. That's all niggers do according to Pat and if we would just stop raping white women, gangbanging and dropping babies out of wedlock, the race problem would be solved.

How this piece of $hit gets away with this nonsense is a mystery.

I e-mailed MSNBC and the National Association of Black Journalists.

Are we going to let this shit stand black folks?

grinder said...

That's it. That's all niggers do according to Pat and if we would just stop raping white women, gangbanging and dropping babies out of wedlock, the race problem would be solved.

Please give us a link to Buchanan's statement to this effect. Now, as a lifelong Democrat I don't happen to see the world in Buchanan's terms, but your strawman caricature is a joke.

Oh, and the rate of out-of-wedlock births among blacks is about 2.5 times that of whites. The crime rate among blacks is much higher, and educational attainment is lower. These are facts, so deal with them as such. Or are you a coward?

grinder said...

p.s.: Buchanan gets airtime for the same reason that Al "Minstrel Show" Sharpton gets airtime. Television is a carnival, and a carnival needs its geeks.

uptownsteve said...

All you have to do is google Pat Buchanan/Michael Dyson Hardball and you'll find it.

As far as the rest of your rant is concerned, if it makes you feel superior by yaking about black crime and illegitimacy while pumping the tires on your house, more power to ya.

What did you score on the SAT anyway Jethro?

grinder said...

As far as the rest of your rant is concerned, if it makes you feel superior by yaking about black crime and illegitimacy while pumping the tires on your house, more power to ya.

Why does all of this remind me of a Tom Wolfe story? I think the sun is setting on the race-hustling game, Steve. Apparently you didn't get the memo.

uptownsteve said...

The tragedy is that you can't see that you're the one doing the hustling.

grinder said...

The tragedy is that you can't see that you're the one doing the hustling.

Still don't have an answer from you or your anonymous alter-ego. If you think you're going to pull the mau-mau game with me, better think again.

uptownsteve said...

Answer to what?

Do you respond to disembodied voices?

Anonymous said...

My...my... my... I see ground-round is still huffin' and puffin'...

Sayin' nothin'!

The fact of the matter is, 92% of alll serial killers are white males, 95% of mass school shootings are by disaffected white youth, 96% of all people incarcerated for sex with children under 6 are white males, 92% of all people incarcerated for child rape under 12 are white males, whites are 5 times more likely to use drugs than blacks, white folks constitute the highest percentage and likelyhood of drunk driving fatalities, and whites are 6 times more likely than blacks to DUI.

Now, if you really want to go round this barn, I can easily go into other areas of white dysfunction. One of the more amusing things that has happened since the Bushit stole office is that crime reports where whites are more likely statistically to be the offender, such as in the areas of crimes against children...

Have suddenly become colorblind.

Proof? Here's some from a regional study...

http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/lobby/6027/research.htm

Even more fun:

"In raw numbers, European-American whites are the ethnic group with the most people in poverty, most illegitimate children, most people on Welfare, most unemployed men, and most arrests for serious crimes."

(Charles Murray, conservative scholar)

Now...

"These are facts, so deal with them as such. Or are you a coward?"

BT

Anonymous said...

The American people believe English should be the official language of the government. … We should replace bilingual education with immersion in English so people learn the common language of the country and they learn the language of prosperity, not the language of living in a ghetto.

Neut Gingrich— speaking to the National Federation of Republican Women.

Now... ground-round...

About those fat chicks.

BT

grinder said...

The fact of the matter is, 92% of alll serial killers are white males, 95% of mass school shootings are by disaffected white youth, 96% of all people incarcerated for sex with children under 6 are white males, 92% of all people incarcerated for child rape under 12 are white males, whites are 5 times more likely to use drugs than blacks, white folks constitute the highest percentage and likelyhood of drunk driving fatalities, and whites are 6 times more likely than blacks to DUI.

I've always heard about the serial-killer numbers, and accept them. I have never heard about the other stats, and given that you've established a track record as a lying coward I'd want the link before buying into the numbers.

After all, the regional study you cited says nothing about overall crime rates. It applies within an area where the population is 90% white.

But if, for purposes of argument, I were to accept that all of your statistical claims are true, then I'd have no problem with those numbers being cited and discussed. In fact, here in this board I've joked about the serial killers being "my people."

I'm not defensive about any of it. I don't pull out the oppression card when someone points out facts. In addition to being white I am male, and I readily acknowledge that males, as a group, are much more violent thsn females.

I'm also gay, and I will readily acknowledge that, as a group, gay men are a lot more sexually active than every other segment of the population. Not only that, but crystal meth has become an epidemic among gay men. I see no point in denying any of these facts.

You, on the other hand, go batshit insane at the mention of discouraging facts about the black population. The mere mention of these facts establishes in your mind the racism of anyone who mentions them.

That's one reason why you are a coward. Another reason you're a coward is that you've accused me of being a racist without even bothering to state your case. You seem to think that I am so afraid of your accusation that I'm going to shrivel up and die because you made it. Well, buddy, let me tell you something: I've been called a name or two in my life. My skin's not black, but it's thick. So bring it on, you lying, idiotic coward.

uptownsteve said...

grinder,

Do you believe that race drives behavior?

More to the point, do you believe that a middle class black man is more likely to commit a violent crime than a middle class white man?

If so, why?

"I'm also gay."

You know it never ceases to amaze me how some of the biggest anti-black bigots I've encountered on these boards are admitted white gay men.

I wonder why that is.

grinder said...

do you believe that a middle class black man is more likely to commit a violent crime than a middle class white man?

Ah, you slipped in a qualifier, "middle class." What do you mean by the term?

You know it never ceases to amaze me how some of the biggest anti-black bigots I've encountered on these boards are admitted white gay men.

Of course, as a lying, cowardly race hustler, you are quick to apply the "bigot" label without even bothering to justify it. In your world, to call someone a racist is to establish it as a fact.

Look, I'm going to keep throwing it right back in your face. You can tell me that white gay men are racists, and think that I'm going to shrivel up and run away. Keep on dreaming.

uptownsteve said...

"Ah, you slipped in a qualifier, "middle class." What do you mean by the term?"

You're wiggling.

I asked if you feel that race is a causative factor in crime?

Yes or No.

Do you feel that an educated, employed black man is more likely to commit a violent crime than his white counterpart?

It's not complicated question.

And I never stated that "white gay men" were racists.

I just stated that I have encountered many racists types on these boards who identified themselves as white and gay.

grinder said...

You're wiggling.

No I'm not. "Middle class" means all kinds of things. I want your definition of "middle class" before answering your question. As usual, you've refused to give it.

I asked if you feel that race is a causative factor in crime?

You never asked me that. But now that you have asked, I would answer this way: "Correlation does not equal causation." Look it up.

And I never stated that "white gay men" were racists.

I just stated that I have encountered many racists types on these boards who identified themselves as white and gay.


The implication of your statements is clear. Oh, and how many "racists" here have identified themselves as "white and gay?"

Your definition of a "racist" is at issue, too. You've made clear that you believe me to be a racist, but you're too much of a coward to back it up. So when you call gay white men (here or anywhere else) "racists," you can count me as a skeptic.

grinder said...

Do you feel that an educated, employed black man is more likely to commit a violent crime than his white counterpart?

Nope. Of course, I haven't seen any numbers, so I could change my mind. But my gut feel is that, an employed and educated black man is no more likely to commit crimes than his white counterpart.

The problem, of course, is that rates of unemployment and lack of education among black men are catastrophically high. I'm sure that in your mind, it's "racist" to say so.

uptownsteve said...

"The problem, of course, is that rates of unemployment and lack of education among black men are catastrophically high. I'm sure that in your mind, it's "racist" to say so."

What you have to get through your skull is that most black people are hard working law abiding employed contributing individuals.

In the depressed inner city ghetto we have high rates of unemployment and school dropouts.

That still consitutes a distinct minority of not just the black community but black males period.

The overall unemployment rate for American black males is 11.7% as of January 2009.

In the inner cities it's close to 40%.

Same with the dropout rate.

Come out to middle class neighborhoods like mine and you'll see young black men attending or being accepted to colleges such as Howard, the Naval Academy, Hampton, and George Washington University where my son is currently in the MBA program.

grinder said...

Come out to middle class neighborhoods like mine and you'll see young black men attending or being accepted to colleges such as Howard, the Naval Academy, Hampton, and George Washington University where my son is currently in the MBA program.

This is a good thing. Do you think that I don't welcome it?

grinder said...

By the way, best wishes to your son in his MBA program, and in whatever comes after that.

uptownsteve said...

Thank you.

Dark Moon said...

If you so choose, no urging, or prompting here, just an invitation, we can take this conversation to the e-mail stage.

As in life, and all things, you get to choose.


I do apologize Black Diaspora for not answering much sooner. I am in the middle of finishing up a paper and I have been sick.

You have a distinctly Buddhist perspective that I do find hard to relate. I would certainly welcome further discourse.

You can certainly contact me at dark_moon@live.com

Thanks

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